Song of Time: Zelda's Changes in PM. 3.6 HYPE

[4tlas]

Those buffs look really good, I hope those buffs make Zelda extra enjoyable and more interactive to the opponent. I think this change is gonna bring more salt to inexperienced players and hopefully won't make Zelda worse or complain like high heaven. People need to learn the matchup and play PATIENT and optimize their punishes. And this is coming from a Snake main with my C4 and Transformation salt lol

As a Snake main, could you give me some advice on Snake vs Zelda? My friend mains Snake and we're about the same skill level relative to our scene yet somehow I destroy him all the time. I think its a good matchup for Zelda because she can remote detonate mines, reflect tranq, get rid of C4, Snake is forced to approach with that ass neutral game, and he's tall and thin so LIGHTNING KICK ALWAYS SWEETSPOTS.

Advice for him?

 

[LupinX]

As a Snake main, could you give me some advice on Snake vs Zelda? My friend mains Snake and we're about the same skill level relative to our scene yet somehow I destroy him all the time. I think its a good matchup for Zelda because she can remote detonate mines, reflect tranq, get rid of C4, Snake is forced to approach with that *** neutral game, and he's tall and thin so LIGHTNING KICK ALWAYS SWEETSPOTS.

Advice for him?

This character is a really hard to deal with if you don't know the matchup. If you do know, you will be all over her like peanut butter and jelly. Zelda's specials (B) can counter most of Snake's neutral game.
Farore's Wind and Din's Fire > Mines
Transform > C4 (it drops)
Nayru's Love > grenade toss/ tranqs/ mortar (u-smash)
From the looks of it, Zelda has the advantage over Snake which means it's a hard matchup for him... It's actually is opposite. How do you deal with a character that slaps away your projectiles like silly putty? Let me tell you
One way to deal with Zelda is to get up and personal with her.... meaning be aggressive.... aggressively smart. Keeping distance puts you in a disadvantage which Zelda WANTS you to do. She has Nayru to protect her from harm and she has an easier time throwing out Dins. What if you jump over Dins? Snake's aerial mobility is very poor, he has a 5 frame jump squat, meaning he is super slow in the air, meaning if Zelda baits your jump, you will be combo'd and take ALOT of unnecessary %. Go close and pressure her using jab, cypher, crouch, dtilt, f-tilt. Wavedance to weave out of her moves and to bait other moves because they have endlag. Crouching helps to whiff grabs, spark jab, f-smash, but be careful, her d-smash is the fastest d-smash in the game, it will be hard to react, so wd or crawl back. F-tilt is one of the best moves to use against Zelda because at low % (40-57 %) it can lead to another grab. 60% going airbourne should lead to a sticky and 80% should lead to an u-tilt (can be detonated into a kill if stuck prior)
ALWAYS stay on the ground and apply pressure mid-close range. Her aerials will always beat yours (learned that the hard way), you are also combo food to her, and don't use projectiles yet. If she is the type of Zelda that loves to teleport (up-b) here's some fun facts. There are two types of transform, regular teleport and telecancelling. Regular teleport will take longer, meaning you can f-air spike her, u-air her, u-smash her. It also goes full distance(a pretty large distance) and it has a hitbox which sends you in weird directions. You can run towards her initial startup to avoid getting hit and punish with tranq--> DACUS or C4. Her telecancelling reduces the startup (still vulnerable), "spin" animation is a bit faster and she can control when she will appear within the distance and she can act out of it. The drawback to this is no hitbox, meaning it can be easily punished by grabs, stickies, cypher if you can predict where she will land....otherwise shield, and when she appears near you, grab her, cypher, or d-air. Nayru has 2 variations, ground and aerial. Her aerial has a smaller hitbox and is vulnerable to b-air. Her ground version is bigger. To deal with nayru, you only need to shield it to which you can grab her. If hit, DI away down and tech away (she's pretty slow). Careful though, she can land cancel her aerial--> ground so keep this in mind when challenging nayru. D-throw is probably you favourite throw against her because it racks up damage fast and it's easier to chase/DACUS her.
Where does this all lead to? Getting her above you. Just like you, she has poor aerial mobility, both horizontal and vertical wise. This is the time where you pull out the projectiles. u-smash her but angle it forward and backward (forward is more safer) because she may nayru to "reflect" it, which you will respond with another u-smash, u-air or f-air if a little closer. Plant mines in conjuction with u-smash maybe DACUS. To this she will most likely respond with up-b. Punish her with the appropriate things said above. Edgeguarding her is only simple if she uses her default Farore which can lead to a f-air or b-air. You can also grab ledge as option as well but Zelda will most likely Dins the ledge to prevent you from hogging her.
Let's talk about transform. She will use that to get the C4 off her, most likely at low %. But at higher %, she may only transform if you are recovering to stage, which I think is a free recovery. When you see her turn (different times of transform to different consoles) immediately detonate it. This will put her in a bad position (above you) and you are free to punish and play hackey sack with her before she hits ground. But if you manage to sticky--> grab--> u-throw--> detonate, it kills at a low %. in PS2, it kills at 85% and over, at FD it kills at 90s. u-throw to sticky only works till 50s, otherwise she can respond with nayru and knock you away.
Throws:
b-throw- DI away and tech away at low percent; DI up and towards at high %
d-throw- DI behind and tech away
u-throw- DI diagonally away; jump at low%
f-throw- DI down away and tech; missed DI at high % can lead to a f-air

This is from my post about the Zelda matchup. It's rough at first, but it gets manageable when you start playing more smart. And I wish the C4 didn't fall out from transform... it makes Snake's life extra hard. I hope PMDT does something about this lol

 

[4tlas]

This character is a really hard to deal with if you don't know the matchup. If you do know, you will be all over her like peanut butter and jelly. Zelda's specials (B) can counter most of Snake's neutral game.
Farore's Wind and Din's Fire > Mines
Transform > C4 (it drops)
Nayru's Love > grenade toss/ tranqs/ mortar (u-smash)
From the looks of it, Zelda has the advantage over Snake which means it's a hard matchup for him... It's actually is opposite. How do you deal with a character that slaps away your projectiles like silly putty? Let me tell you
One way to deal with Zelda is to get up and personal with her.... meaning be aggressive.... aggressively smart. Keeping distance puts you in a disadvantage which Zelda WANTS you to do. She has Nayru to protect her from harm and she has an easier time throwing out Dins. What if you jump over Dins? Snake's aerial mobility is very poor, he has a 5 frame jump squat, meaning he is super slow in the air, meaning if Zelda baits your jump, you will be combo'd and take ALOT of unnecessary %. Go close and pressure her using jab, cypher, crouch, dtilt, f-tilt. Wavedance to weave out of her moves and to bait other moves because they have endlag. Crouching helps to whiff grabs, spark jab, f-smash, but be careful, her d-smash is the fastest d-smash in the game, it will be hard to react, so wd or crawl back. F-tilt is one of the best moves to use against Zelda because at low % (40-57 %) it can lead to another grab. 60% going airbourne should lead to a sticky and 80% should lead to an u-tilt (can be detonated into a kill if stuck prior)
ALWAYS stay on the ground and apply pressure mid-close range. Her aerials will always beat yours (learned that the hard way), you are also combo food to her, and don't use projectiles yet. If she is the type of Zelda that loves to teleport (up-b) here's some fun facts. There are two types of transform, regular teleport and telecancelling. Regular teleport will take longer, meaning you can f-air spike her, u-air her, u-smash her. It also goes full distance(a pretty large distance) and it has a hitbox which sends you in weird directions. You can run towards her initial startup to avoid getting hit and punish with tranq--> DACUS or C4. Her telecancelling reduces the startup (still vulnerable), "spin" animation is a bit faster and she can control when she will appear within the distance and she can act out of it. The drawback to this is no hitbox, meaning it can be easily punished by grabs, stickies, cypher if you can predict where she will land....otherwise shield, and when she appears near you, grab her, cypher, or d-air. Nayru has 2 variations, ground and aerial. Her aerial has a smaller hitbox and is vulnerable to b-air. Her ground version is bigger. To deal with nayru, you only need to shield it to which you can grab her. If hit, DI away down and tech away (she's pretty slow). Careful though, she can land cancel her aerial--> ground so keep this in mind when challenging nayru. D-throw is probably you favourite throw against her because it racks up damage fast and it's easier to chase/DACUS her.
Where does this all lead to? Getting her above you. Just like you, she has poor aerial mobility, both horizontal and vertical wise. This is the time where you pull out the projectiles. u-smash her but angle it forward and backward (forward is more safer) because she may nayru to "reflect" it, which you will respond with another u-smash, u-air or f-air if a little closer. Plant mines in conjuction with u-smash maybe DACUS. To this she will most likely respond with up-b. Punish her with the appropriate things said above. Edgeguarding her is only simple if she uses her default Farore which can lead to a f-air or b-air. You can also grab ledge as option as well but Zelda will most likely Dins the ledge to prevent you from hogging her.
Let's talk about transform. She will use that to get the C4 off her, most likely at low %. But at higher %, she may only transform if you are recovering to stage, which I think is a free recovery. When you see her turn (different times of transform to different consoles) immediately detonate it. This will put her in a bad position (above you) and you are free to punish and play hackey sack with her before she hits ground. But if you manage to sticky--> grab--> u-throw--> detonate, it kills at a low %. in PS2, it kills at 85% and over, at FD it kills at 90s. u-throw to sticky only works till 50s, otherwise she can respond with nayru and knock you away.
Throws:
b-throw- DI away and tech away at low percent; DI up and towards at high %
d-throw- DI behind and tech away
u-throw- DI diagonally away; jump at low%
f-throw- DI down away and tech; missed DI at high % can lead to a f-air

This is from my post about the Zelda matchup. It's rough at first, but it gets manageable when you start playing more smart. And I wish the C4 didn't fall out from transform... it makes Snake's life extra hard. I hope PMDT does something about this lol

Thanks a lot, I'll pass on the parts I think are good advice.

I completely agree that the key here is to get up in her face, since playing the spacing game is what she wants you to do. You also will never get a chance to set up mines, grenade spam, or tranq (shes either ready to reflect or shes spacing lightning kick in the air). But without those things (including c4 being negated after a Zelda combo rather than a stock loss), Snake's punishes aren't strong enough to make up for his subpar neutral.

So I totally agree Snake has to get in there and fight her close range, but that's one of his weaker points. I definitely don't think its a good matchup for Snake by any margin. It sounds like you're either just better than the Zeldas you face or you've found a way to beat them personally.

Also, shortening Farore's does not reduce the startup at all. It works the exact same way Fox Illusion does. How is it supposed to reduce the startup if we don't do the input until midway through the move?! =)

 

[LupinX]

Thanks a lot, I'll pass on the parts I think are good advice.

I completely agree that the key here is to get up in her face, since playing the spacing game is what she wants you to do. You also will never get a chance to set up mines, grenade spam, or tranq (shes either ready to reflect or shes spacing lightning kick in the air). But without those things (including c4 being negated after a Zelda combo rather than a stock loss), Snake's punishes aren't strong enough to make up for his subpar neutral.

So I totally agree Snake has to get in there and fight her close range, but that's one of his weaker points. I definitely don't think its a good matchup for Snake by any margin. It sounds like you're either just better than the Zeldas you face or you've found a way to beat them personally.

Also, shortening Farore's does not reduce the startup at all. It works the exact same way Fox Illusion does. How is it supposed to reduce the startup if we don't do the input until midway through the move?! =)

Ah I will edit that, thanks for the heads up xD. I play Snake really weird, I am more close quarters than most Snakes and use my projectiles when I feel I'm safe to use it. so I'm used to pressure getting to my face. I use a lot of shield grenade so she is pressured to either shield or roll away to which I will grab (on her shield) or resume neutral. And I learned stick unexpectedly/safely even when Zelda is at high %. This either pressures Zelda to transform, thus detonating the C4 putting her above Snake so therefore a bad position or she will be more aggressive due to sticky presence. Snakes need to learn to stick at opportune times. I say when you attempt to transform into sheik (which is even a harder matchup for Snake) detonate it, and when sheik transforms to Zelda detonate upon the full transformation. And tell your friend to use tranq WISELY when tech chasing, jab reset punishes, because that's a confirm sticky--> u-throw--> detonate on his part.

 

[Downdraft]

Attention everyone, especially those that are active on reddit, there's a new negative thread about Zelda that's garnered a lot of attention in less than 24 hours. Please read and respond.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/34us0d/discussion_is_zelda_unfun_to_fight_against_and/

@the_irish_dude @ Zerudahime @ Luis Alonso @ WhiteCrow @Kaeldiar @WhiteLightnin
There are too many Zeldas to tag; these are just some of the more active Zeldas I'm familiar with.

 

[LupinX]

Man, Zelda can never catch a break >.>

 

[Luis Alonso]

Yeah I know about that thread. @PsychoGhost tagged me and mentioned my super awesome gfys. I decided to give none of my attention to it, though I do read the comments from time to time.

Haters gunn hate

 

[WhiteCrow]

My reply already has more karma than the original post haha. I don't think it's anything new, just your standard anti-Zelda rant. I think the community understands conversations like that aren't productive.

 

[Downdraft]

My reply already has more karma than the original post haha. I don't think it's anything new, just your standard anti-Zelda rant. I think the community understands conversations like that aren't productive.

Yeah, I noticed, lol. I posted a link to the thread based on the title and comment count alone.
I was surprised that discussion was generally favorable or neutral towards Zelda.
It was also funny to see unrecognizable Zeldas come out of the woodwork.

 

[TimeSmash]

Attention everyone, especially those that are active on reddit, there's a new negative thread about Zelda that's garnered a lot of attention in less than 24 hours. Please read and respond.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/34us0d/discussion_is_zelda_unfun_to_fight_against_and/

@the_irish_dude @ Zerudahime @ Luis Alonso @ WhiteCrow @Kaeldiar @WhiteLightnin
There are too many Zeldas to tag; these are just some of the more active Zeldas I'm familiar with.

I read the 34us part of the link wrong and thought this was a 3DS discussion about how Zelda is too good lmaaoooooo

Also in what world is DAIR getting you out of combos haha
Though I must say the OP was really respectful from what I've read, and while conversations like this might end up as word circles, it's never bad to foster discussion as long as it has merit and isn't stupid as hell like racism or what have you

Edit: It does seem that 3.5 Din's Fire has been a change for the better after all. I remember I was SO apprehensive to it at first, but having three mines was ridiculous for your opponent. I still loved it though

 

[Downdraft]

I read the 34us part of the link wrong and thought this was a 3DS discussion about how Zelda is too good lmaaoooooo

Also in what world is DAIR getting you out of combos haha
Though I must say the OP was really respectful from what I've read, and while conversations like this might end up as word circles, it's never bad to foster discussion as long as it has merit and isn't stupid as hell like racism or what have you

Edit: It does seem that 3.5 Din's Fire has been a change for the better after all. I remember I was SO apprehensive to it at first, but having three mines was ridiculous for your opponent. I still loved it though

3.5 Din's encourages offensive play, but as was pointed out in that thread, Zelda has poor mobility with a slow running speed, short wavedash, short ranged dash dance, and slow aerial speed. 3.5 Din's might "be better for the health of the game", but it's not a better form of the attack. Zelda can't really control the opponent's approach, cover her approach ,or just throw it out to tack on damage later. The move's only good for continuing combos quicker than 3.02 Din's or the occasional gimp or kill off the top using sniping or manual detonation. 3.02 Din's was also capable of sniping and could setup later combos. 3.02 Din's had more range. 3 -> 1 mine was not the only major difference between versions.

 

[TimeSmash]

3.5 Din's encourages offensive play, but as was pointed out in that thread, Zelda has poor mobility with a slow running speed, short wavedash, short ranged dash dance, and slow aerial speed. 3.5 Din's might "be better for the health of the game", but it's not a better form of the attack. Zelda can't really control the opponent's approach, cover her approach ,or just throw it out to tack on damage later. The move's only good for continuing combos quicker than 3.02 Din's or the occasional gimp or kill off the top using sniping or manual detonation. 3.02 Din's was also capable of sniping and could setup later combos. 3.02 Din's had more range. 3 -> 1 mine was not the only major difference between versions.

I meant more of what you were saying as it being better for the health of the game. Is it better for Zelda? Definitely not but I do think I judged it too harshly in the beginning. While 3.02 Din's had more range and overall utility, it gave us copious amounts of stage control, which I could see as being unfair because we had a LOT of stage control. I'd have to argue with you that 3.5 Din's also has defensive aspects as well in the form of the recall hit--while not at all strong or even doing that much hitstun, it still can interrupt someone's momentum to a degree. I do agree with you that quantity is definitely not the most important aspect of the move--but I wonder how two of 3.5 Din's would function. I predict as obviously having more stage control, but with the ability to have two returning fireballs I wonder what it would be like in terms of stage control and quality of the move overall. The last part of this is just theorizing, so feel free to ignore it haha

 

[Downdraft]

I meant more of what you were saying as it being better for the health of the game. Is it better for Zelda? Definitely not but I do think I judged it too harshly in the beginning. While 3.02 Din's had more range and overall utility, it gave us copious amounts of stage control, which I could see as being unfair because we had a LOT of stage control. I'd have to argue with you that 3.5 Din's also has defensive aspects as well in the form of the recall hit--while not at all strong or even doing that much hitstun, it still can interrupt someone's momentum to a degree. I do agree with you that quantity is definitely not the most important aspect of the move--but I wonder how two of 3.5 Din's would function. I predict as obviously having more stage control, but with the ability to have two returning fireballs I wonder what it would be like in terms of stage control and quality of the move overall. The last part of this is just theorizing, so feel free to ignore it haha

How would you balanced that attack? Would she be unable to reset the first mine until the second mine was placed? Would losing manual detonation be the trade-off to allow her to set two mines? I could ask you at least ten questions about your theorizing, but a conversation or another thread would be the best place to discuss that since 2 3.5 Din's is improbable in 3.6. Perhaps @otheusrex might find a way to do it, and you could request it in the Triforce of Inspiration thread, but we'd need to iron out the details, and there's still the problem that it might be too much work for him or just not possible with the technology he's currently using to modify Zelda.

Anyways, back to the 3.02 -> 3.5 transition, other minor changes to Din's include making the mine much closer to the size of its detonation, the pulsing sound effect, the white glow and sound effect to indicate that it's about to detonate, and its acceleration. 3.5 Din's decelerates and can't be set as close, far, or high as 3.02 Din's. 3.5 Din's is easier to control and safer to set, but the safety issues are overblown IMO. Zhime and his protege Aileen didn't have trouble setting the mines up versus the Zelda Skype group or opponents in tournaments. Many of Zelda's attacks have high knockback. Simply knock the opponent horizontally and set a Din's or two. One also can b-throw or teleport to increase the distance between their opponent and themselves in order to set Din's. It's just not a good idea to do it while your opponent is on the ground or close enough to punish you while you're trying to set it, and that holds for both versions.

As negative as I may seem when discussing 3.5 Zelda, I'm just a detailed person that likes to spread and retain accurate information. I enjoy intellectual debates and discussions. Whatever happens in 3.6, we should all strive not repeat ourselves as much as we have since 3.5 dropped. It just sucks that Zelda wasn't given offensive buffs to the degree that she received defensive nerfs. Her offense and defense fell dramatically. People still complain about her, though others enjoy playing against 3.5 Zelda more since she's overall weaker and easier to handle. I don't ultimately know what the PMDT was hoping to accomplish with their changes. If it was to address the criticism, they ultimately failed as indicated by countless posts on this website and that thread on reddit. If it was to make Zelda prefer an offensive playstyle, that too failed. If it was too alienate Zelda fans (which is highly unlikely), then that too failed since Zhime returned and new Zeldas have replaced the ones that reduced or eliminated their support. Seeing how it's their game though and they're not transparent and clear about the group's decision making and thought processes, we just won't know anytime soon. Regardless, the only way I could see Zelda getting much worse than she is right now is if they began nerfing her normal attacks. U-smash and F-tilt are her only good combo setups. Screwing with either of those moves would break her limited combo game.

 

[Sardonyx]

I didn't feel like reading through 7 pages lol, but I have some things that I believe would make Zelda slightly better in 3.6.

Rework priority on kicks so we have the same effective range as 3.02 kicks
Keep them at 19% damage, but the power stays the same for all 4 frames
Give dair a bigger or slightly longer lasting sweetspot
Put the linking hit on usmash back and reduce damage over all the hits slightly to keep 3.5 damage
Revert dsmash to 3.02
More maneuverability on dins and make it go farther
Decrease SDI multipliers on Nayru's
Either love jump or Aerial invincibility back on aerial Nayru's
Increase her running speed slightly so she's less reliant on telecancel(to prevent it from becoming overcentralizing to her game)
Revert uair back to 3.02 or give it more power
Make Jab useful

That's it for me really. Maybe I'll main her again if she gets buffed in 3.6, but as of now, I'm not playing a character whose moveset seems thrown together hastily.

 

[Downdraft]

I didn't feel like reading through 7 pages lol, but I have some things that I believe would make Zelda slightly better in 3.6.

Rework priority on kicks so we have the same effective range as 3.02 kicks
Keep them at 19% damage, but the power stays the same for all 4 frames
Give dair a bigger or slightly longer lasting sweetspot
Put the linking hit on usmash back and reduce damage over all the hits slightly to keep 3.5 damage
Revert dsmash to 3.02
More maneuverability on dins and make it go farther
Decrease SDI multipliers on Nayru's
Either love jump or Aerial invincibility back on aerial Nayru's
Increase her running speed slightly so she's less reliant on telecancel(to prevent it from becoming overcentralizing to her game)
Revert uair back to 3.02 or give it more power
Make Jab useful

That's it for me really. Maybe I'll main her again if she gets buffed in 3.6, but as of now, I'm not playing a character whose moveset seems thrown together hastily.

That and playing the most ******* about character in the game is also not fun. I will look into another character for 3.6. Zelda is just a negative IMO. What good she has is either incessantly ******* about, nerfed, or removed to the point where it's hard to enjoy playing her competitively. Not to mention her moveset's more boring in 3.5, but she wasn't the only character who got more boring after "the fat was removed".

 

[Sardonyx]

That and playing the most *****ed about character in the game is also not fun. I will look into another character for 3.6. Zelda is just a negative IMO. What good she has is either incessantly *****ed about, nerfed, or removed to the point where it's hard to enjoy playing her competitively. Not to mention her moveset's more boring in 3.5, but she wasn't the only character who got more boring after "the fat was removed".

MK is apparently boring now, ZSS is boring too

 

[TimeSmash]

That and playing the most *****ed about character in the game is also not fun. I will look into another character for 3.6. Zelda is just a negative IMO. What good she has is either incessantly *****ed about, nerfed, or removed to the point where it's hard to enjoy playing her competitively. Not to mention her moveset's more boring in 3.5, but she wasn't the only character who got more boring after "the fat was removed".

Zero Suit Samus in particular had a lot of complaints about her new playstyle in 3.5 as well. She's still good, but many complained playing as her was just boring and unintuitive.

It's annoying everyone constantly ******* about Zelda, when spacies are relatively the same as they were in Melee and still annoying as hell. Just because people have more tools to deal with them doesn't mean their playstyle is flawed as well. Come on now. A lot of the salt people have has to be taken in stride, but like you said it's very prevalent and I find it hard to ignore everyone haha. I'm not switching from her in 3.6, but I haven't had time to really play this game as of late and I do like my tradition of playing only females haha.

Edit: Yo Sanclaria stop being prophetic

 

[Sardonyx]

Zero Suit Samus in particular had a lot of complaints about her new playstyle in 3.5 as well. She's still good, but many complained playing as her was just boring and unintuitive.

It's annoying everyone constantly *****es about Zelda, when spacies are relatively the same as they were in Melee and still annoying as hell. Just because people have more tools to deal with them doesn't mean their playstyle is flawed as well. Come on now. A lot of the salt people have has to be taken in stride, but like you said it's very prevalent and I find it hard to ignore everyone haha. I'm not switching from her in 3.6, but I haven't had time to really play this game as of late and I do like my tradition of playing only females haha.

Edit: Yo Sanclaria stop being prophetic

 

[Downdraft]

Zero Suit Samus in particular had a lot of complaints about her new playstyle in 3.5 as well. She's still good, but many complained playing as her was just boring and unintuitive.

It's annoying everyone constantly *****es about Zelda, when spacies are relatively the same as they were in Melee and still annoying as hell. Just because people have more tools to deal with them doesn't mean their playstyle is flawed as well. Come on now. A lot of the salt people have has to be taken in stride, but like you said it's very prevalent and I find it hard to ignore everyone haha. I'm not switching from her in 3.6, but I haven't had time to really play this game as of late and I do like my tradition of playing only females haha.

Edit: Yo Sanclaria stop being prophetic

I fooled around in training and actually kinda like Pit. He doesn't seem to require much tech skill and was my first main in the Smash Bros. series (Brawl, when I was a casual). He went from Top 10 in 3.02 to Bottom 10 in 3.5, but some believe that he'll get some love since he was nerfed too harshly. I don't pick characters based on viability anyways.

 

[TimeSmash]

I don't pick characters based on viability anyways.

I love you for this

 

[Downdraft]

I love you for this

Brawl: Zelda
Project M: Zelda, MK (3.02)
Brawl-: Zelda
Smash 4: Zelda/Palutena

Don't care much for the top or high tiers since they typically don't fit my preferred playstyle or are overused.

 

[TimeSmash]

Brawl: Zelda
Project M: Zelda, MK (3.02)
Brawl-: Zelda
Smash 4: Zelda/Palutena

Don't care much for the top or high tiers since they typically don't fit my preferred playstyle or are overused.

Right? I really love how the females play in the Smash series usually, which is why I gravitate towards them. Though I did really like Kirby in N64, and actually like a lot of Wario's moves in PM

 

[4tlas]

I have grown to like new Dins as I have learned to use the nuances of it. Catching people with that brief wisp requires careful planning because it is too bad to do on reaction. Catching people with manual explosions or the stall requires careful mindgames because it is too bad to pressure with. Carefully placing Dins so that not only the initial placement but the return curve is in the right spot requires foresight and cleverness because Zelda is so bad I have to trick opponents into approaching.

New lightning kicks, having removed the supersweetspot and thus the tradeoff of spacing for damage, are simple to use as there is now an optimal use case. I have gotten so much better at nicking my opponent with the tip of the move because I now have no reason not to!

New teleshort, because it is more restrictive, simple, and predictable than teledash, has allowed me to implement a cunning aggressive playstyle, whereas before wavedashing was too hard and my options too broad. It wasn't worth learning when it was a better move.

The loss of aerial nayrus invuln forced me to use nayrus offensively since there was no point in using it defensively and its too pretty to leave out of my moveset. Now I catch people with land cancelled nayrus all the time! I'd better abuse the extremely restrictive land-cancel timing while they still haven't adapted to my new-fangled tricks!


But in all seriousness, I do think removing all of the cool stuff has made me a better player. Now if they could add it back in I'd be thrilled. And I still don't like 3.5 Zelda better than 3.02 Zelda, but I can't tell which one is 'better', since I know I'm a lot better than before.

New Dins encourages defense because it only pressures between you and the Din and it is difficult to place it far away. On the other hand, it encourages offense for 3 reasons I hadn't considered when it first came out.

1) Opponents do not want to clank it because it might still hit them.
2) You can still get some use out of it by placing it far away from the action (and thus clanks) because it will return to you.
3) While being aggressive and playing footsies with your opponent, you can use Dins because the cast time is quick (in some scenarios).

I think new Dins is fine. I just wish I had supersweetspots back. And setting up LoZ puzzles with multiple Dins was nice. And forcing people to approach by setting up more and more stage control was nice. And pushing people off the stage with refreshing Dins, punishing them for trying to outcamp Zelda was nice. And being able to defend myself against rushdown by placing them at my feet/face was nice.

I'm making myself depressed now.

 

[Downdraft]

As for which version is better, ask yourselves which characters were preserved in the transition?
Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, and Roy are a few characters that didn't receive drastic changes.
I mention these characters because they're all disadvantageous matchups for Zelda, and 3.5 Zelda has inferior options to deal with those opponents than 3.02 Zelda. Zelda was harshly nerfed along with some of her bad matchups, but the Melee elite were exempt from major changes, so she still struggles against them. Another thing to consider is that Zelda was equally nerfed if not worse so than characters above her overall, so why would she be better than characters like Samus, Mewtwo, or Lucas now? They didn't fall beneath her. They decreased the severity of some of her bad matchups and increased the severity in others. Her buffs were poor compensation for what she lost, and she's not better off. Instead, she's worse because her matchup spread was nerfed.

 

[Sardonyx]

I have grown to like new Dins as I have learned to use the nuances of it. Catching people with that brief wisp requires careful planning because it is too bad to do on reaction. Catching people with manual explosions or the stall requires careful mindgames because it is too bad to pressure with. Carefully placing Dins so that not only the initial placement but the return curve is in the right spot requires foresight and cleverness because Zelda is so bad I have to trick opponents into approaching.

New lightning kicks, having removed the supersweetspot and thus the tradeoff of spacing for damage, are simple to use as there is now an optimal use case. I have gotten so much better at nicking my opponent with the tip of the move because I now have no reason not to!

New teleshort, because it is more restrictive, simple, and predictable than teledash, has allowed me to implement a cunning aggressive playstyle, whereas before wavedashing was too hard and my options too broad. It wasn't worth learning when it was a better move.

The loss of aerial nayrus invuln forced me to use nayrus offensively since there was no point in using it defensively and its too pretty to leave out of my moveset. Now I catch people with land cancelled nayrus all the time! I'd better abuse the extremely restrictive land-cancel timing while they still haven't adapted to my new-fangled tricks!


But in all seriousness, I do think removing all of the cool stuff has made me a better player. Now if they could add it back in I'd be thrilled. And I still don't like 3.5 Zelda better than 3.02 Zelda, but I can't tell which one is 'better', since I know I'm a lot better than before.

New Dins encourages defense because it only pressures between you and the Din and it is difficult to place it far away. On the other hand, it encourages offense for 3 reasons I hadn't considered when it first came out.

1) Opponents do not want to clank it because it might still hit them.
2) You can still get some use out of it by placing it far away from the action (and thus clanks) because it will return to you.
3) While being aggressive and playing footsies with your opponent, you can use Dins because the cast time is quick (in some scenarios).

I think new Dins is fine. I just wish I had supersweetspots back. And setting up LoZ puzzles with multiple Dins was nice. And forcing people to approach by setting up more and more stage control was nice. And pushing people off the stage with refreshing Dins, punishing them for trying to outcamp Zelda was nice. And being able to defend myself against rushdown by placing them at my feet/face was nice.

I'm making myself depressed now.

I honestly just dislike how we can't even get Melee kicks. We can't even get a kick that is 19 damage throughout all 4 frames of it being active. We have watered down Melee kicks that are only full strength for 1 frame. I also dislike how nair can't hold opponents all the time, and how that fox was able to SDI out of usmash in that video I posted, and how aerial Nayru's was gutted, and how they DT felt the need to nerf her even though she wasn't toxic to the game, but it's whatever. I rarely play PM anymore because it left a sour taste in my mouth.

 

[Downdraft]

I honestly just dislike how we can't even get Melee kicks. We can't even get a kick that is 19 damage throughout all 4 frames of it being active. We have watered down Melee kicks that are only full strength for 1 frame. I also dislike how nair can't hold opponents all the time, and how that fox was able to SDI out of usmash in that video I posted, and how aerial Nayru's was gutted, and how they DT felt the need to nerf her even though she wasn't toxic to the game, but it's whatever. I rarely play PM anymore because it left a sour taste in my mouth.

She wasn't toxic to the game, but she left a bitter taste in her opponents' mouths. Zelda might have been a problem if her tactics had become dominant, but there was only one dominant 3.02 Zelda, and his Zelda doesn't align with the complaints, so they weren't based on relevant players. Results and tactics that aren't a high level shouldn't be considered when balancing the game. I know the vast majority of players are mid-level or lower, but they aren't the ones pushing the characters to their limits, entertaining viewers, or winning anything. Zelda's complaints largely stem from irrelevant people IMO, but the PMDT rendered those people relevant when they decided to change the way Zelda plays. I'm not devoted to this game anymore.

 

[Sardonyx]

She wasn't toxic to the game, but she left a bitter taste in her opponents' mouths. Zelda might have been a problem if her tactics had become dominant, but there was only one dominant 3.02 Zelda, and his Zelda doesn't align with the complaints, so they weren't based on relevant players. Results and tactics that aren't a high level shouldn't be considered when balancing the game. I know the vast majority of players are mid-level or lower, but they aren't the ones pushing the characters to their limits, entertaining viewers, or winning anything. Zelda's complaints largely stem from irrelevant people IMO, but the PMDT rendered those people relevant when they decided to change the way Zelda plays. I'm not devoted to this game anymore.

Getting waveshined across the stage and up air juggled by Roy at higher percents also leave a bitter taste in peoples' mouths but they're still in, but that's none of my business

 

[Downdraft]

Getting waveshined across the stage and up air juggled by Roy at higher percents also leave a bitter taste in peoples' mouths but they're still in, but that's none of my business

It's just too bad the developers decide not to make PM truly its own game. There's nothing new about Fox or Sheik being dominant or characters like Marth and Diddy being strong. Legend of Zelda characters still aren't viable at a high level. The list goes on.

 

[Luis Alonso]

Legend of Zelda characters aren't strong enough to dominate the top tiers, but they used to.

Link used to be extremely good, Zelda fantastic, TL...not so much, Sheik is Sheik, and Ganondorf was good.

Now, Link isn't as good as he used to be, Zelda is still fodder for haters despite her nerf, TL is actually decent now, Sheik is still Sheik, and Ganondorf got a heck of a lot better. But they just aren't enough.

But the Emblemers...All of them are top tier and there doesn't seem to be any stopping their momentum.

 

[Sardonyx]

Legend of Zelda characters aren't strong enough to dominate the top tiers, but they used to.

Link used to be extremely good, Zelda fantastic, TL...not so much, Sheik is Sheik, and Ganondorf was good.

Now, Link isn't as good as he used to be, Zelda is still fodder for haters despite her nerf, TL is actually decent now, Sheik is still Sheik, and Ganondorf got a heck of a lot better. But they just aren't enough.

But the Emblemers...All of them are top tier and there doesn't seem to be any stopping their momentum.

The DT is obviously capable of making a hard hitting character with slower attacks good (Ike) but it seems like they won't do the same for Zelda. She's forever doomed to be subpar because everything needs a compensation when it comes to her. She can't just receive a straight buff, she has to be nerfed in some sort of way to balance out the miniscule buffs, but the buffs end up not compensating for the nerfs.

 

[ECHOnce]

She wasn't toxic to the game, but she left a bitter taste in her opponents' mouths. Zelda might have been a problem if her tactics had become dominant, but there was only one dominant 3.02 Zelda, and his Zelda doesn't align with the complaints, so they weren't based on relevant players. Results and tactics that aren't a high level shouldn't be considered when balancing the game. I know the vast majority of players are mid-level or lower, but they aren't the ones pushing the characters to their limits, entertaining viewers, or winning anything. Zelda's complaints largely stem from irrelevant people IMO, but the PMDT rendered those people relevant when they decided to change the way Zelda plays. I'm not devoted to this game anymore.

The unfortunate response we received iirc was "no, it wasn't just influenced by haters crying for nerfs, we had legit reasons. The biggest reason we felt Zelda should have had ___ and ___ changed drastically was because...well, (tangent time~) the Zelda whose meta you players had worked to develop for these recent PM iterations was a mistake that had been allowed to continue for too long, since a few certain PMBR members managing Zelda were supposedly not giving the team majority any say. When said members left, team majority finally got their way - the way most of them believed she should've been since day 1."

The reason why this bugged me so much was that...idk. I feel like the way this should've been approached is "this is what the meta has developed, and so regardless of the reasons that led to changes in the past, they happened...and we should use the data gathered (tourney results, player responses) from that to make decisions moving forward, without bias to preferences we had on an outdated version of PM."

(When the clock hits 2am, I apparently bust out hypothetical conversations cos I forget how to English and can't articulate such complex ideas in any other format. Brain tiirreddd)

EDIT: don't get me wrong, I've learned to love 3.5 Zelda. But like others, I'm still butthurt over how she (1) got nerfed the way she did (completely changed meta-heavy moves), rather than receiving more intuitive nerfs, and (2) receiving the short end of the stick with every PM update, just because we're the ugly Jigglypuff MU of this game that nobody likes, which is then denied when we bring it up and instead blurred over with "rational" justifications for why it's reasonable to make spacie/swordie MUs scarier to us every time lol...

 

[Zerudahime]

The unfortunate response we received iirc was "no, it wasn't just influenced by haters crying for nerfs, we had legit reasons. The biggest reason we felt Zelda should have had ___ and ___ changed drastically was because...well, (tangent time~) the Zelda whose meta you players had worked to develop for these recent PM iterations was a mistake that had been allowed to continue for too long, since a few certain PMBR members managing Zelda were supposedly not giving the team majority any say. When said members left, team majority finally got their way - the way most of them believed she should've been since day 1."

That statement is pretty much irrelevant as far as "reasoning".
Considering there were only two and a half people that cared about Zelda on the entire team until she became successful.

 

[Reidlos Toof]

Hello everybody! So I've been out of the loop for a while, can anybody run me through a list of the confirmed/expected changes coming to Zelda in 3.6?

 

[WhiteCrow]

Hello everybody! So I've been out of the loop for a while, can anybody run me through a list of the confirmed/expected changes coming to Zelda in 3.6?

lol nothing is/probably will be confirmed.

 

[Sardonyx]

Hello everybody! So I've been out of the loop for a while, can anybody run me through a list of the confirmed/expected changes coming to Zelda in 3.6?

The camera thing with Dins is gone in 3.6, and the 2 extra frames of endlag on telecancel are being removed.

 

[4tlas]

The camera thing with Dins is gone in 3.6, and the 2 extra frames of endlag on telecancel are being removed.

These have been confirmed. In addition, I hope they get the camera to not follow Zelda mid-teleport. Its the only thing I like about Dins camera, because I can use it to mask my teleports.

 

[Downdraft]

It feels like there's nothing big left to discuss regarding 3.5 Zelda. The board has been quiet this weekend.

 

[Sardonyx]

It feels like there's nothing big left to discuss regarding 3.5 Zelda. The board has been quiet this weekend.

Agreed. There's not much left to discover about her imo now that a lot of her AT was removed.

 

[4tlas]

I would argue most of Zelda is reads and mindgames anyway, and its difficult to discuss in text how those work. Like just drawing a picture of Dins placements and possible reactions by your opponent would be extremely helpful and extremely time-consuming.

 

[Downdraft]

I think I'll cut back on my visits until 3.6 drops. Tier List Speculation and this board are the only things that keep me interested in Smashboards at the moment, and I've had enough of arguing about 3.5.