Song of Time: Zelda's Changes in PM. 3.6 HYPE

[TimeSmash]

Hey everyone, basically this is a placeholder post at the moment. But this thread will be used to document the changes that occur to Zelda from 3.02 to 3.5 when it comes out! I'll be trying to compile things like frame data, aesthetic differences, changes in move properties, changes in move knockback, changes in move damage, and the like, so when the time comes feel free to help out!!!

Below is the changelog, with a simplified version by @E.C.H.O.

DMG = Damage.

KB = Knockback

KBG = Knockback Growth. This value determines how quickly a hitbox's KB scales with the opponents percent. Damage is also a major factor in determining scaling.

BKB = Base Knockback. This amount of KB is added to the end result of the knockback formula and is most noticeable a low percents.

WDSK = Weight Dependent Set Knockback. As the name impies, this is a type of KB that is set and does not scale with percent, and instead has a set amount that varies only based on the opponents weight. KBG in this instance is used as a multiplier, but is usually set at 100.

IASA = Interruptible As Soon As. This is a long-standing term in competitive Smash that refers to the first frame that a character can interrupt an attack, often before the full animation has completed visually. Generally this will be used to describe endlag increases and decreases.

Hitlag = The amount of freeze frames a character goes into when hit by a hitbox. This term will usually be used to describe a multiplier that increases or decreases the amount of hitlag that a hitbox would normally induce.

SDI = Smash DI, the ability for a player to move around while in Hitlag based on control stick input. This term will usually be used to describe a multiplier that increases or decreases the effectiveness of SDIing an attack.

Angle/Trajectory = This describes the angle at which an opponent is sent flying after being hit by a hitbox. 90 is straight up, while 0 is a purely horizontal trajectory.
361 angle = This angle is used throughout the game as a dynamic replacement to what would otherwise be 45, the go-to "horizontal attack" angle. This angle starts off sending further horizontally than 45 at lower KBs, but quickly scales up to 45 in-game. For all intents and purposes you can imagine the trajectory as simply being 45.

Changelog starts here

Tilts
-Forward Tilt: Tip angle 108->110 to match other upwards hitboxes. BKB/KBG adjusted. Hitbox terminates one frame earlier to trim excessive lingering. Hitlag/SDI modifiers now 1.0x.
-Up Tilt: Damage 12->15 on early hit, 11->13 on late hit, KBG compensated. Late hit angle 92->85, begins when arm is around 1 o'clock position instead of behind.
-Down Tilt: Damage 7/8 -> 10/11, KBG compensated. Simplified hitboxes to maintain same usage, but have less hitbox commands.
Smashes
-Forward Smash: Hitlag multipliers 0x -> 0.7x, SDI multipliers 0x -> 0.25x
-Up Smash: Endlag reduced by 1 frame, to match Melee IASA. Removed extra linking hit previously added to 2nd attack wave, which increased the damage. Now 16->15 damage. BKB reduced slightly, KBG increased to compensate. Angle 90-88. SDI multipliers (0.15, 0.2, 0.25) -> 0.25x
-Down Smash: Removed pointless fully overlapped hitbox on foot, front hit terminates one frame earlier to not connect on opponents behind you and preventing the stronger back hit from hitting, or sometimes double hitting.

Aerials
-Neutral Aerial: Landing hitbox vs grounded opponents WDSK 54-40 to induce a less erratic hitstun animation. SDI multipliers on outer hits 0.4x -> 0.5x.
-Forward Aerial: Super sweetspot removed. Sweetspot damage 18(initial hit frame)/16(remaining hit window) -> 19/16. Overlapping flub hitbox on leg moved to cover hip.
-Back Aerial: Super sweetspot removed. Sweetspot damage 17/15 -> 18/15. Overlapping flub hitbox on leg moved to cover hip.
-Up Aerial: Electric flub hitbox angle 85->75, KBG 75-100, BKB 64-60. Hitlag multiplier on early hitbox 0.6 -> 1.0

Grabs
-Standing Grab: Grabs on Frame 8 from 9. Active for 2 frame from 3. Grabboxes cleaned up.
-Turn Grab: Grab duration reduced from 3->2 to match other turn grabs. Hitboxes cleaned up.
-Pummel: Damage decreased from 4->3, but slightly faster.

Throws
-Forward Throw: Release point is closer and lower to combo better. BKB 68->60, Damage decreased from 12->10, KBG compensated. Endlag uses added IASA and less drastic FSM to look more natural.
-Up Throw: Damage decreased from 9-8, KB values compensated. Releases a frame faster.
-Down Throw: Damage decreased from 15->14, KB values compensated.
Specials
-Neutral Special (Nayru's Love): Character momentum resets properly. Cleaned up hitboxes so being hit by the edges of last hit has reversible KB, but being hit within the outer edges still sends the way Zelda is facing.
--Grounded: Final hit angle 45/40 -> 361, BKB 55/50->50, KBG compensated. Startup reduced by 3 frames.
--Aerial: Intangibility removed. Angle 60/55 -> 55, BKB 50/45 -> 45, KBG compensated. SDI 0.5x->0.8 on linking hits. Land cancel occurs slightly later and startup reduced by 3 frames for same total time.

-Forward Special (Din's Fire):
--Proximity hitbox increased in size, does more damage to shields, damage increases with charge time, and initial uncharged size is larger. Time out explosion is slightly larger and does more damage. Startup reduced. Air IASA matches the faster ground IASA. When placing the Din's, it now begins fast and decelerates as it gets bigger.
--Amount of Din's active on screen at one time decreased 3->1. Camera now tracks the Din's Fire and keeps it on screen.
--While in play, performing Forward Special again will activate the Din's, causing a small explosion before heading on a return path back towards Zelda with a weak hitbox, and refreshing the hitbox if the Din's was already in motion. If the proximity hitbox hits, is shielded, or is clanked while stationary this will also cause it to return to her. The returning movement and turning speed is slower the more it is charged, with sufficient charge allowing for Zelda to avoid re-catching it immediately. If it does not reach Zelda after a few seconds, it will expire and disappear on its own without being re-caught.
--If Zelda is hit/grabbed while it is in motion, it will unlink from her and travel in a straight line, unless she reactivates it (while linked a flashing red GFX on her hand is present). It will also not track Zelda or be re-caught and travel straight ahead if Zelda is invisible or KOed. If left stationary for a few seconds it will self detonate with a much larger and powerful explosion.


-Up Special (Farore's Wind): Airdodge interrupt out of ground only teleport removed, replaced with a B press to cancel/shorten movement during ground or aerial teleport that preserves sliding momentum and is able to snap onto platforms even when passing upwards through them, similar to wavelanding.
--Ground to ground Farore cancel has shortest ending animation, comparable to airdodge landing lag. Ground startup hitbox changed from 95 BKB/0 KBG -> 95 WDSK.
--Aerial ending no longer halts vertical, allowing sliding up walls a bit after reappearing when teleporting upwards to edges. Aerial Farore FSM on ending removed, with air mobility beginning later to increase commitment to her original travel direction. Land lag from reappearing in air increased from 20->30. KB of non-cancelled reappearance hit Angle 60->50, KBG 46->120, BKB 100->45.


-Down Special (Transform) Air IASA after switching 1->7 to match grounded. Gravity decreased from 0.04 -> 0.03 to offset the longer aerial IASA. Initiates Din's into strong/large self detonation on frame 21, which then explodes on frame 49 when she disappears.

Others

-Dash acceleration increased to match Melee acceleration to dash speed ratio.
-Airdodge and jumps' stage collision detection adjusted, improving wavelanding ability significantly.
--Air Dodge vulnerability and enabling of gravity/fastfall/mobility begins 10 frames sooner to match Melee.
-Hitlag multiplier on UTaunt 0.25x -> 1.0x.
-Hitlag multiplier on Staunt 0.5x->1.0x.
-Jab Angle 55->361, hitbox size slightly decreased on last hit. SDI multiplier on final hit now 1.0x.
-Dash Attack Angle 78->88. Late hit terminates 1 frame earlier when her arms are no longer in front. Travels across a slightly larger area while the strong hit is out.

E.C.H.O.'s notes

Spoiler: Normal

NOTE: Green/Red bullets are simply to denote increases/decreases in values, and are not meant to imply whether the change is considered a buff/nerf; excepting the hitlag and SDI multipliers, which are reversed (I'm all sure we can agree with those being buffs/nerfs lol). Blue bullets denote either a change that includes both increased and decreased values, or a change in value that can't technically be considered an increase/decrease.

DAMAGE:
• U-Tilt (12->15 on early hit, 11->13 on late hit)
• D-Tilt (Damage 7/8 -> 10/11)
• U-Smash (Removed extra linking hit previously added to 2nd attack wave, which increased damage. Now 16 -> 15 damage)
• F-Air (Sweetspot damage 18(initial hit frame)/16(remaining hit window) -> 19/16)
• B-Air (Sweetspot damage 17/15 -> 18/15)
• Grab Pummel (Damage decreased from 4->3, but slightly faster)
• F-Throw (Damage decreased from 12->10)
• U-Throw (Damage decreased from 9-8)
• D-Throw (Damage decreased from 15-14)

ANGLE: (HIGHER/LOWER)
• Jab (Angle 55->361. 361 basically = 45 in Smash, for those who don't know)
• Dash Attack (Angle 78->88)
• F-Tilt (Tip angle 108->110 to match other upwards hitboxes)
• U-tilt (Late hit angle 92->85, begins when arm is around 1 o'clock position instead of behind)
• U-Air (Electric flub hitbox angle 85->75)
• U-Smash (Angle 90-88)
• F-Throw (Release point is closer and lower to combo better)

BASE KNOCKBACK:
• F-Tilt (Tip angle 108->110...BKB/KBG adjusted)
• U-Smash (BKB reduced slightly)
• U-Air (BKB 64-60)
• F-Throw (Release point is closer...to combo better. BKB 68 ->60)
• U-Throw (Damage decreased from 9-8, KB values compensated)
• D-Throw (Damage decreased from 15->14, KB values compensated)

KNOCKBACK GROWTH:
• F-Tilt (Tip angle 108->110...BKB/KBG adjusted)
• U-Tilt (Damage 12->15 on early hit, 11->13 on late hit, KBG compensated)
• D-Tilt (Damage 7/8 -> 10/11, KBG compensated)
• U-Smash (BKB reduced slightly, KBG increased to compensate)
• U-Air (KBG 75-100)
• F-Throw (Damage decreased from 12->10, KBG compensated)
• U-Throw (Damage decreased from 9-8, KB values compensated)
• D-Throw (Damage decreased from 15-14, KB values compensated)

WEIGHT DEPENDENT SET KNOCKBACK:
• N-Air (Landing hitbox vs grounded opponents WDSK 54-40 to induce a less erratic hitstun animation)

HITBOXES: (BIGGER/SMALLER) (ADDITION/REMOVAL)
• Jab (hitbox size slightly decreased on last hit)
• Dash Attack (Travels across a slightly larger area while the strong hit is out)
• D-Tilt (Simplified hitboxes to maintain same usage, but have less hitbox commands)
• U-Smash (Removed extra linking hit previously added to 2nd attack wave, which increased damage)
• D-Smash (Removed pointless fully overlapped hitbox on foot, front hit terminates one frame earlier to not connect on opponents behind you and preventing the stronger back hit from hitting, or sometimes double hitting)
• F-Air (Super sweetspot removed...Overlapping flub hitbox on leg moved to cover hip)
• B-Air (Super sweetspot removed...Overlapping flub hitbox on leg moved to cover hip)
• Standing Grab (Grabboxes cleaned up)
• Turn Grab (Hitboxes cleaned up)

FRAMES: (SHORTER/LONGER STARTUP+ENDLAG) (LONGER/SHORTER ACTIVE DURATION)
• Dash Attack (Late hit terminates 1 frame earlier when her arms are no longer in front)
• F-Tilt (Hitbox terminates one frame earlier to trim excessive lingering)
• U-Smash (Endlag reduced by 1 frame, to match Melee IASA)
• D-Smash (front hit terminates one frame earlier to not connect on opponents behind you and preventing the stronger back hit from hitting, or sometimes double hitting)
• Standing Grab (Grabs on Frame 8 from 9. Active for 2 frame from 3)
• Turn Grab (Grab duration reduced from 3->2 to match other turn grabs)
• Grab Pummel (Damage decreased from 4->3, but slightly faster)
• F-Throw (Endlag uses added IASA and less drastic FSM to look more natural)
• U-Throw (Releases a frame faster)

HITLAG MULTIPLIER: (DECREASE/INCREASE) (REMOVAL/ADDITION)
• F-Tilt (Hitlag/SDI modifiers now 1.0x)
• F-Smash (Hitlag multipliers 0x -> 0.7x)
• U-Air (Hitlag multiplier on early hitbox 0.6 -> 1.0)
• U-Taunt (Hitlag multiplier...0.25x -> 1.0x)
• S-Taunt (Hitlag multiplier...0.5x->1.0x)

SDI MULTIPLIERS: (DECREASE/INCREASE) (REMOVAL/ADDITION)
• Jab (SDI multiplier on final hit now 1.0x)
• F-Tilt (Hitlag/SDI modifiers now 1.0x)
• F-Smash (SDI multipliers 0x -> 0.25x)
• U-Smash (SDI multipliers (0.15, 0.2, 0.25) -> 0.25x)
• N-Air (SDI multipliers on outer hits 0.4x -> 0.5x)

Spoiler: Movement

WAVEDASHES/WAVELANDS:
• Airdodge and jumps' stage collision detection adjusted, improving wavelanding ability significantly.
• Airdodge vulnerability and enabling of gravity/fastfall/mobility begins 10 frames sooner to match Melee.
Those two things are pretty big deals. WD/WLs are noticeably longer, and from the sounds of it, the second point allows us to act out of WD/WLs sooner. So...that's bueno. Shorter airdodge invulnerability sucks but meh, who cares.

Spoiler: Specials

NEUTRAL-B (NAYRUS):
• Character momentum resets properly.
• Cleaned up hitboxes so being hit by the edges of last hit has reversible KB, but being hit within the outer edges still sends the way Zelda is facing.
• Grounded: Final hit angle 45/40 -> 361, BKB 55/50->50, KBG compensated. Startup reduced by 3 frames.
• Aerial: Intangibility removed. Angle 60/55 -> 55, BKB 50/45 -> 45, KBG compensated. SDI 0.5x->0.8 on linking hits. Land cancel occurs slightly later and startup reduced by 3 frames for same total time.
Oh...where to start. It got pooped on. First off all, it should be pointed out that the changelist has completely neglected to detail how tiny Nayrus' range has been made. Bullet 1 is a cop-out fancy way of telling us Love Jumps / Diamond Dives are gone. I need some hitbox .gifs to make sure I'm understanding Bullet 2 correctly, but from the sounds of it and from trying it out myself, the reversible KB is much harder to get now than in 3.02. Is it trying to say that only the very last hit on the outer edge has reversible KB? Bullets 3+4 are...meh. Just the usual minor buffs that don't mean much, and SDI multiplier nerfs. We lose aerial invulnerability, too. Not sure what the implications of the Land-cancelling changes will have though, but they feel about the same to me. On that note, with the removal of Love Jumps, land-cancelling Nayrus out of hitstun is a viable option against opponents following-up carelessly. There's no invulnerability anymore so it's not super safe, but from my experience so far, it puts opponents on the defensive worrying about it while I'm still at low %s. The removal of Love Jumps also means that Zelda can at least stall with Nayrus, although that's not very safe unless you're fairly high up. Overall, Nayrus remains a good follow-up, break-out-of-combos, bad-approach-punisher, and oos option, albeit now terrible for spacing and lacking in its former flexible range of functions. Read: still pretty ok on stage, no longer usable for god-tier recovery. I sorta understand the reasoning there I guess, just hurts a bit :x

SIDE-B (DINS):
• Proximity hitbox increased in size, does more damage to shields, damage increases with charge time, and initial uncharged size is larger. Time out explosion is slightly larger and does more damage. Startup reduced. Air IASA matches the faster ground IASA. When placing the Din's, it now begins fast and decelerates as it gets bigger.
• Amount of Din's active on screen at one time decreased 3->1. Camera now tracks the Din's Fire and keeps it on screen.
• While in play, performing Forward Special again will activate the Din's, causing a small explosion before heading on a return path back towards Zelda with a weak hitbox, and refreshing the hitbox if the Din's was already in motion. If the proximity hitbox hits, is shielded, or is clanked while stationary this will also cause it to return to her. The returning movement and turning peed is slower the more it is charged, with sufficient charge allowing for Zelda to avoid re-catching it immediately. If it does not reach Zelda after a few seconds, it will expire and disappear on its own without being re-caught.
• If Zelda is hit/grabbed while it is in motion, it will unlink from her and travel in a straight line, unless she reactivates it (While linked a flashing red GFX on her hand is present). It will also not track Zelda or be re-caught and travel straight ahead if Zelda is invisible or KOed. If left stationary for a few seconds it will self detonate with a much larger and powerful explosion.
Bullet 1 explains that the proximity hitbox (pre-explosion + stationary) is just better in general. Which may be the case, but it's much less threatening in this manner, given its just a single din by itself. The startup and air endlag reductions are obv. nice though. The timing and directional control for placing Dins is completely different; little vertical control, but much quicker horizontal speed at first (allowing for super quick, easy follow-ups after knocking them away). Because of this, placing Dins between yourself and a close opponent isn't really an option anymore, but you can still do so (and much more quickly) if they're further away, or put one behind them to zone / encourage further approaching. Bullet 2+3 are why Dins now come off as much more threatening. During their stationary and later mobile states, the now single, larger, more-quickly-placed Din is made more obvious by the camera influence. Now that they're more aware of it, opponents are more likely to pay more attention to avoiding Dins; take advantage of this if they approach you (after setting a Din behind them) by being careful to limit their escape options as you approach them, and punish any mistakes with Zelda stuff. You know...LKs, N-Air, U-Air, Nayrus, F-Tilt/U-Smash, etc. Bullet 4 isn't as bad as it sounds. If you get hit immediately after it starts following you, it'll leave its trajectory while it's still circling away from you...which sucks, but re-catching Dins is simply and can stall in the air to help recovery (opposite of when setting Dins, which gives her a ton of downward airborne momentum instead, reminiscent of Diamond Diving). The new Dins is amazing when placed past recovering opponents, too; I'm sure you've all tried it by now. Dins circle back downwards when withdrawn while level to Zelda, and circle back upwards if withdrawn while above. So Dins should be placed below stage level, just above the opponent if they're recovering low to catch them, or higher than Zelda, just below the opponent, if they're recovering high. It should also be noted that spamming the Din explosion on the return trip is great for stalling the Dins' travel and mixing up the timing against opponents that stay in shield or by the edge too much. Bigger+slower dins are obv. better for that stalling. So explode it once or twice while they have ledge invincibility on purpose, and then let it hit them once they get up as you go in with an LK/whatever after hit-confirm.

UP-B (FARORES):
• Airdodge interrupt out of ground only teleport removed, replaced with a B press to cancel/shorten movement during ground or aerial teleport that preserves sliding momentum and is able to snap onto platforms when passing upwards through them, similar to wavelanding.
• Ground to ground Farore cancel has shortest ending animation, comparable to airdodge landing lag. Ground startup hitbox changed from 95 BKB/0 KBG -> 95 WDSK.
• Aerial ending no longer halts vertical, allowing sliding up walls a bit after reappearing when teleporting upwards to edges. Aerial Farore FSM on ending removed, with air mobility when teleporting upwards through edges. Aerial Farore FSM on ending removed, with air mobility beginning later to increase commitment to her original travel direction. Land lag from reappearing in air increased from 20->30. KB of non-cancelled reappearance hit Angle 60->50, KBG 46->120, BKB 100->45.
Bullet 1 is where all the meat is. As others have mentioned, the new Teleshort B-cancel leaves Zelda with no momentum upon reappearance, so movements/actions out of teleshort are pretty much limited to standing actions, minus jump/dash. Even with standing options, she has a hefty bit more endlag more than she would out of Teledash's wavelands; on top of Teledash letting Zelda appear before opponents and waveland behind them for mindgame stuff, Teleshorts aren't nearly as safe. Cancel-able teleports that were started while airborne are great if recovering on stage from above, though. Stages with platforms by the edge are now much safer stage picks for Zelda, given her weakened recovery (no love jumps~...). Bullet 3 is something us Zeldas all noticed in 3.02 and prob wanted fixed, but tbh it has prob hurt us more than it helped. Leaving in the object collision going upwards really was only a bad thing if you didn't know to just return the control stick to neutral; it was more of just a game-design-completion-ist idea, so that Zelda scrubs & cpus wouldn't SD every time and not understand why. Now that the oject collision has been removed, sweetspotting from below the edge can sometimes be a huge pain in the arse, since she no longer snaps easily to the ledge and just goes straight over, until you get the Teleshort B-cancel timing down. It's really the only way to sweetspot, and at least for now, while I'm not 100% consistent with the timing...it seems pretty silly. If Zelda doesn't sweetspot edge and goes over, she'll just keep eating scrubby smash edgeguards. If she cuts the cancel teleshort too short, it's an instant SD. Even if you do get the timing down, since you're cancelling the teleport that has a hitbox on reapperance, it's super easy for the opponent to just edge hog. On a final note, the fact that horizontal momentum has been reduced for a short time after reappearance means Zelda can't simply wait to fall to the height at which she can sweetspot edge normally on Distant Planet with full-length teleport; now that the walls at the bottom curve outwards further than they do at the top, it'll push Zelda too far horizontally to effectively sweetspot the ledge using tele's full distance. She has to use the teleshort B-cancel on that stage now to sweetspot, if recovering from below, making it super easy for opponents to edgeguard her in a similar fashion to edgeguarding Sheik - steal ledge so she's forced to recover on to the stage, and then punish her hard during her (now longer) landing lag. If she chooses to go use the full length teleport distance (diagonally from below) instead, she'll probably eat a B-air/D-air from ledge if her opponent is any good.

[/quote]

For those of you who don't understand or don't have the time to break down what anything from the changelist means for us, I simplified it a bit via sorting things by how they were changed. afaik, Zelda has - by far - the most changes out of the roster, so it's important to look at the trends in changes in her moveset, rather than changes for individual moves, at least for normals.

Spoiler: Normals

NOTE: Green/Red bullets are simply to denote increases/decreases in values, and are not meant to imply whether the change is considered a buff/nerf; excepting the hitlag and SDI multipliers, which are reversed (I'm all sure we can agree with those being buffs/nerfs lol). Blue bullets denote either a change that includes both increased and decreased values, or a change in value that can't technically be considered an increase/decrease.

DAMAGE:
• U-Tilt (12->15 on early hit, 11->13 on late hit)
• D-Tilt (Damage 7/8 -> 10/11)
• U-Smash (Removed extra linking hit previously added to 2nd attack wave, which increased damage. Now 16 -> 15 damage)
• F-Air (Sweetspot damage 18(initial hit frame)/16(remaining hit window) -> 19/16)
• B-Air (Sweetspot damage 17/15 -> 18/15)
• Grab Pummel (Damage decreased from 4->3, but slightly faster)
• F-Throw (Damage decreased from 12->10)
• U-Throw (Damage decreased from 9-8)
• D-Throw (Damage decreased from 15-14)

ANGLE: (HIGHER/LOWER)
• Jab (Angle 55->361. 361 basically = 45 in Smash, for those who don't know)
• Dash Attack (Angle 78->88)
• F-Tilt (Tip angle 108->110 to match other upwards hitboxes)
• U-tilt (Late hit angle 92->85, begins when arm is around 1 o'clock position instead of behind)
• U-Air (Electric flub hitbox angle 85->75)
• U-Smash (Angle 90-88)
• F-Throw (Release point is closer and lower to combo better)

BASE KNOCKBACK:
• F-Tilt (Tip angle 108->110...BKB/KBG adjusted)
• U-Smash (BKB reduced slightly)
• U-Air (BKB 64-60)
• F-Throw (Release point is closer...to combo better. BKB 68 ->60)
• U-Throw (Damage decreased from 9-8, KB values compensated)
• D-Throw (Damage decreased from 15->14, KB values compensated)

KNOCKBACK GROWTH:
• F-Tilt (Tip angle 108->110...BKB/KBG adjusted)
• U-Tilt (Damage 12->15 on early hit, 11->13 on late hit, KBG compensated)
• D-Tilt (Damage 7/8 -> 10/11, KBG compensated)
• U-Smash (BKB reduced slightly, KBG increased to compensate)
• U-Air (KBG 75-100)
• F-Throw (Damage decreased from 12->10, KBG compensated)
• U-Throw (Damage decreased from 9-8, KB values compensated)
• D-Throw (Damage decreased from 15-14, KB values compensated)

WEIGHT DEPENDENT SET KNOCKBACK:
• N-Air (Landing hitbox vs grounded opponents WDSK 54-40 to induce a less erratic hitstun animation)

HITBOXES: (BIGGER/SMALLER) (ADDITION/REMOVAL)
• Jab (hitbox size slightly decreased on last hit)
• Dash Attack (Travels across a slightly larger area while the strong hit is out)
• D-Tilt (Simplified hitboxes to maintain same usage, but have less hitbox commands)
• U-Smash (Removed extra linking hit previously added to 2nd attack wave, which increased damage)
• D-Smash (Removed pointless fully overlapped hitbox on foot, front hit terminates one frame earlier to not connect on opponents behind you and preventing the stronger back hit from hitting, or sometimes double hitting)
• F-Air (Super sweetspot removed...Overlapping flub hitbox on leg moved to cover hip)
• B-Air (Super sweetspot removed...Overlapping flub hitbox on leg moved to cover hip)
• Standing Grab (Grabboxes cleaned up)
• Turn Grab (Hitboxes cleaned up)

FRAMES: (SHORTER/LONGER STARTUP+ENDLAG) (LONGER/SHORTER ACTIVE DURATION)
• Dash Attack (Late hit terminates 1 frame earlier when her arms are no longer in front)
• F-Tilt (Hitbox terminates one frame earlier to trim excessive lingering)
• U-Smash (Endlag reduced by 1 frame, to match Melee IASA)
• D-Smash (front hit terminates one frame earlier to not connect on opponents behind you and preventing the stronger back hit from hitting, or sometimes double hitting)
• Standing Grab (Grabs on Frame 8 from 9. Active for 2 frame from 3)
• Turn Grab (Grab duration reduced from 3->2 to match other turn grabs)
• Grab Pummel (Damage decreased from 4->3, but slightly faster)
• F-Throw (Endlag uses added IASA and less drastic FSM to look more natural)
• U-Throw (Releases a frame faster)

HITLAG MULTIPLIER: (DECREASE/INCREASE) (REMOVAL/ADDITION)
• F-Tilt (Hitlag/SDI modifiers now 1.0x)
• F-Smash (Hitlag multipliers 0x -> 0.7x)
• U-Air (Hitlag multiplier on early hitbox 0.6 -> 1.0)
• U-Taunt (Hitlag multiplier...0.25x -> 1.0x)
• S-Taunt (Hitlag multiplier...0.5x->1.0x)

SDI MULTIPLIERS: (DECREASE/INCREASE) (REMOVAL/ADDITION)
• Jab (SDI multiplier on final hit now 1.0x)
• F-Tilt (Hitlag/SDI modifiers now 1.0x)
• F-Smash (SDI multipliers 0x -> 0.25x)
• U-Smash (SDI multipliers (0.15, 0.2, 0.25) -> 0.25x)
• N-Air (SDI multipliers on outer hits 0.4x -> 0.5x)

 

[Sartron]

If it means anything, the Zelda frame thread will be updated for 3.5 when it comes out along with all other frame threads I author.

 

[TimeSmash]

It actually means a LOT, and I'll definitely cite/reference you when it occurs. Thanks!!

 

[BJN39]

Mkay gorls, as you have seen if you've watched the 3.5 vid, Din's has received a MEGA CHANGE. Here are the current found changes by me, and blahblahblah...ANYWAYS

THINGS ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE. THERE ARE STILL A TON OF UNDISCOVERED THINGS. DO NOT TAKE AS FINAL, OR 100% ACCURATE.

* Din's Fire, it appears, has lost the ability to cast more than ONE wisp.

* This comes on the board of the MEGA CHANGE; She can now input something (Presumably side B.) while the wisp is out and placed to "command" As I have dubbed it, her currently placed wisp to return to her. yes, now, a placed wisp during pulsation AND EVEN right after the detonation, it appears, will do a small curve through the air and u-turn back towards Zelda, and once it retuns to her body, it disappears. The "Command" animation is quite short, allowing you to command it, and then move around, altering the trajectory of your wisp as it returns.

* The return wisp attack appears to function differently, and like causes weak hits as it returns. Its visual is quite different from the pulsations as well. It is unknown currently if the wisp disappears on contact with opponents, their shields, or stage bodies. (The latter is likely so.)

* As for the veteran designs, the wisp, when cast, travels incredibly fast now, right from the start. Its size does NOT amplify as much with distance anymore, the set din's pulsations are now visually larger, presumably to match the explosion size, giving people better indication of its size.

* Along with this, it appear the explosion is far smaller, even it far distances.

* It should also be noted that a returning wisp appears to ALSO get stronger with distance in the same way the explosion does. (It is unknown atm exactly HOW it gets sronger if it truly does.) This can be seen between the two clips where the return wisp is substantially "fluffier" and fierier, than it is in the second scene, where it is placed closer to Zelda.

Ironically, this design is even MORE unique and foreign to Melee's apparently widely desired "Simple" designs. Which is something the now being replaced 1.0-3.02 design of 3 din's got a TON of flack for--being unique, or borderline unusual.

 

[TimeSmash]

Thank you @ DarkStarStorm and @ BJN39 for making this abo ut 2482637823646243823562538523625325 times to find!!

 

[4tlas]

I don't want to clutter this thread, but I suppose making another thread for it would be more clutter-y, so...

Are we sure its a command to return to her, and not an auto-return at some point? Can it still explode while returning? Can you place one while the 1st is returning?

Also: can you still teledash?

 

[Kaeldiar]

I don't want to clutter this thread, but I suppose making another thread for it would be more clutter-y, so...

Are we sure its a command to return to her, and not an auto-return at some point? Can it still explode while returning? Can you place one while the 1st is returning?

Also: can you still teledash?

These will all be answered on Friday

 

[TimeSmash]

We'll be getting frame data and stuff soon. Please also be on the look for any exploits we can do!!

 

[drsusredfish]

I'm gona miss being able to draw the triforce symbol with dins but having a quickly remote controlled setable projectile is very alluring. its only two days till realease and l'm sure a little speculation won't be too bad...

Spoiler

I think Clip one shows that longer distances make it bigger and that it returns slower. clip two shows that its smaller and returns faster if its gone a short distance. the second clip also shows that the minimum cast distance is about the same as 3.02. She didn't seem to loop her casting animation so that may be the quickest cast time

If the din works the way i expect it to it'll go like this, you set the din then you call it back to you but you can also cancel the return command so it gets repositioned. The longer it travels it seems the slower it returns to you and the bigger it gets. kinda like rolling a snowball for a snow man but you know... made of fire. so you could set it on one side of the stage run (hopefully teledash) to the other side and call it then stop it before it touches you. then run back to the other side of the stage and call it again to make it even bigger. Howevver as it approaches its maximum size it gets slower and slower until it eventually stops moving then all it can do is explode.

It's pretty impposible to tell what kind of hit box it has especialy since that captain falcon pretty much ignores it but i expect it to pretty much have similar it hit boxes as 3.02 dins in that it still explodes on a timer and the, now moving, proximity hit still has little knock back but sets up combo opportunities.

 

[Tweedle]

Don't know how I feel about this... Granted I did stop using Dins as much after playing a lot of smash 4 so Hopefully I won't miss it to much and will get used to this new Dins.

(Still, Such a drastic change... Don't know how I feel...... Ehh)

 

[Reidlos Toof]

The new Din's looks pretty sketchy. Losing 2 of her air mines is a BIG nerf. I've also heard some people say that she lost teledashing as well. I'm worried that they over-nerfed her because too many people were just crybabies that didn't want to bother to learn the matchup.

 

[drsusredfish]

They can do what ever they want to her dins. I've had fun with ever PM iteration of din so far but teledash has to stay for me.

 

[4tlas]

Well the PM Facebook page explains more of whats going on with her Dins Fire. You can only place one, starts out fast then slows down, gets larger further out. Upon detonation it returns to you (no indication if theres a hitbox or not during the return flight). Use sideB again to detonate it early or to detonate it during the return flight (no indication if you can detonate it multiple times during flight or if it dissipates after one explosion).

I watched the trailer again and it looks like it returns along the path you sent it on or something, because it doesnt just go straight to her, but they didn't say anything about that on the fb page. Just that if she gets hit/grabbed during the return, it pauses flight until you call it again.

 

[flying_tortoise]

Well the PM Facebook page explains more of whats going on with her Dins Fire. You can only place one, starts out fast then slows down, gets larger further out. Upon detonation it returns to you (no indication if theres a hitbox or not during the return flight). Use sideB again to detonate it early or to detonate it during the return flight (no indication if you can detonate it multiple times during flight or if it dissipates after one explosion).

I watched the trailer again and it looks like it returns along the path you sent it on or something, because it doesnt just go straight to her, but they didn't say anything about that on the fb page. Just that if she gets hit/grabbed during the return, it pauses flight until you call it again.

they said the same kind of stuff on twitter.
I'm really hoping that as it returns it avoids platforms (which was why I thought it went that way in the video) so its hitbox can take up the most space possible when it's returning

 

[HRR2b23]

So, according to Project M's character page: "A Farore's Wind started from the ground can be cancelled early by pressing the B button, giving Zelda the ability to stop at any time during the duration of the move, giving her a good movement option over long distances that she otherwise lacked."

So uh...gg teledashing? If that's the case I am extremely disappointed, that's two pretty big nerfs now.

 

[flying_tortoise]

So, according to Project M's character page: "A Farore's Wind started from the ground can be cancelled early by pressing the B button, giving Zelda the ability to stop at any time during the duration of the move, giving her a good movement option over long distances that she otherwise lacked."

So uh...gg teledashing? If that's the case I am extremely disappointed, that's two pretty big nerfs now.

yep, its on the page so its true. we'll learn......... im very disappointed also.. but we'll learn

 

[Magus420]

The pages weren't intended to be updated quite yet so there will be some inaccuracies. To clarify, it can be shortened when started from both ground and air now similar to spacies side-bs, and the ground to ground cancel is roughly the same lag as teledashing, while in the air it has a bit more landing lag but opens up ways to edge cancel off platforms with good timing. You can also snap onto platforms with the cancel while traveling upwards as well much like a waveland, so you can use it in the same ways as before for the most part, as well as some new things you can do with it, without being as strange as being able to airdodge out of it if you happened to start it on the ground. Coming from the guy who originally created the AD cancel I think it's a much cleaner implementation of it.

 

[flying_tortoise]

The pages weren't intended to be updated quite yet so there will be some inaccuracies. To clarify, it can be shortened when started from both ground and air now similar to spacies side-bs, and the ground to ground cancel is roughly the same lag as teledashing, while in the air it has a bit more landing lag but opens up ways to edge cancel off platforms with good timing. You can also snap onto platforms with the cancel while traveling upwards as well much like a waveland, so you can use it in the same ways as before for the most part, as well as some new things you can do with it, without being as strange as being able to airdodge out of it if you happened to start it on the ground. Coming from the guy who originally created the AD cancel I think it's a much cleaner implementation of it.

Edit (b/c I had to regain my composure lol):
Thank you kind sir for clarifying.
That explanation made me feel a lot better

 

[4tlas]

As someone who didn't teledash because I don't wavedash, yay! Now I can use it!

To everyone who used the old teledash: I'm sorry you have to relearn it, but at least we still have it right?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

So uh...gg teledashing? If that's the case I am extremely disappointed, that's two pretty big nerfs now.

Why in the ...

Differences =/= nerfs. Especially with a character that the PMDT KNOWS isn't overpowered.

 

[jtm94]

Teleport cancelling wasn't really smash anyways imo.
I'd rather her play more like a regular smash character and be without it. The fact that it's still usable in a different form is still something good. It could not be there at all.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Am i going to have to relearn zelda now? I made teledashing an important part of my mix up game..

 

[Tweedle]

Am i going to have to relearn zelda now? I made teledashing an important part of my mix up game..

I haven't. Muahhahahaha. I'll give it a try now.

 

[flying_tortoise]

As someone who didn't teledash because I don't wavedash, yay! Now I can use it!

To everyone who used the old teledash: I'm sorry you have to relearn it, but at least we still have it right?

I'll take it any day

Why in the ...

Differences =/= nerfs. Especially with a character that the PMDT KNOWS isn't overpowered.

I think he thought that teledashing was out altogether b/c the description of it on the page was confusing
Edit: I was confused about it myself

 

[Nabbitnator]

I haven't. Muahhahahaha. I'll give it a try now.

It was pretty good to snipe people who liked to rush in without thinking, plus it was just so damn cool to do.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I'll take it any day

I think he thought that teledashing was out altogether b/c the description of it on the page was confusing
Edit: I was confused about it myself

I'll miss the actual Teledash. The new one is just Teleport, you won't get the movement out of it that you did. Zelda's already lacking movement just got worse...

 

[flying_tortoise]

I'll miss the actual Teledash. The new one is just Teleport, you won't get the movement out of it that you did. Zelda's already lacking movement just got worse...

Mb you can teleport slightly in the air and then waveland? idk we'd have to see. But I was having a panic attack thinking that it was out altogether [I mean come on it would've been like destroying every reason I picked her up in the first place (a strategic character that had to think 2 steps ahead and could move in a way no one else could that was balanced)] so I'm fine with it

EDIT: Check out the zelda meetup that Kaeldier mentioned right below this post
http://smashboards.com/threads/zelda-social-thread.331720/page-18#post-17969154
here is more info

 

[Kaeldiar]

Time will tell to see how good Teleshort(?) is. End lag, lack or presence of special fall, lack or presence of a hitbox...we'll have to see when 3.5 comes out. Don't forget about the "Zelda Meeting" at 7pm ET tonight. @WhiteLightnin posted about it in the Social. If you can, that'll be an excellent time to collaborate and figure some stuff out. Then someone can make a master list for TimeSmash to put in the OP. It'll be awesome if we can start to figure out how these moves work EARLY, so that we have as much time as possible to master the new Zelda.

EDIT: fixed timezone

 

[TimeSmash]

Time will tell to see how good Teleshort(?) is. End lag, lack or presence of special fall, lack or presence of a hitbox...we'll have to see when 3.5 comes out. Don't forget about the "Zelda Meeting" at 7pm tonight. @WhiteLightnin posted about it in the Social. If you can, that'll be an excellent time to collaborate and figure some stuff out. Then someone can make a master list for TimeSmash to put in the OP. It'll be awesome if we can start to figure out how these moves work EARLY, so that we have as much time as possible to master the new Zelda.

Off-topic but 7 PM in terms of what time zone? It's currentyl 2:30 where I am

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Off-topic but 7 PM in terms of what time zone? It's currentyl 2:30 where I am

And it's 11:30 where I am...

 

[flying_tortoise]

7 PM EST!!!!!

edit: ey look same Timezone as DarkStarStorm

 

[4tlas]

Well the changelog is up already, but I found it did a poor job of explaining what new Dins does, so here are some details.

The direction it is heading when placed is the direction it will go when released. It can be exploded multiple times at command. The command is very very quick. The din flies out of her hand super fast but slows down tremendously a tiny distance beyond the closest placing point.

Havent tried transforming or teleshort yet, have to go try and play this thing in a tournament right now... oh and no more brawl super sweetspot lightning kick. /cry

 

[BJN39]

Yup, the new changeling is out


And...

They pretty much dumbed up, weakened, and or added unnecessary changes. Like, everything but FW / DF is just like some noob went through her really well polished data and dumbed it up. x.x

AND THEN THEY DIDNT EVEN MELEEFY KICKS. THEY RETTY MUCH JUST REMOVED THE CRIT-SWEETSPOT.

IS THIS WHAT YOU CALLED GOOD PROGRESS, @Umbreon I HOPE YOURE HAPPY!

 

[HanAmes]

Well the changelog is up already, but I found it did a poor job of explaining what new Dins does, so here are some details.

The direction it is heading when placed is the direction it will go when released. It can be exploded multiple times at command. The command is very very quick. The din flies out of her hand super fast but slows down tremendously a tiny distance beyond the closest placing point.

Havent tried transforming or teleshort yet, have to go try and play this thing in a tournament right now... oh and no more brawl super sweetspot lightning kick. /cry

I miss the Super Sweet Spot myself, too...but this new gg teledashing seems to require some finesse and timing to immediately act out of, but for me, it takes some getting used to. I'm also indifferent about the new din's fire; actually a part of me is slightly disappointed for not being able to control the field like how I did in 3.02.

In PM, movesets can always be compromised, and so as a smasher, I just have to learn to adapt, and keep exploring newer and greater avenues.

 

[flying_tortoise]

I see the potential of din already. And btw it avoids platforms. I think we will actually be forced to attack moee than which imo is a good thing.

Lol i do feel a little tricked with the tele cancel, sure u can cancel it at the same speed as teledash but u have quite a few frames where u can't do anything at all so u just look stupid (she literally stands still lol).
But its fine for now only got to fool around for a few matches b4 my midterm.
Will play more as soon as i get home and edit this post for some more info

 

[I Dair You]

Not impressed with the unjustified Zelda nerfs. No love jump. No farores cancel. Fair/bair sweetspot hitbox is smaller and does less knockback. Theres no excuse for this. Zelda imo feels more changed than any PM character in the transition from 3.02 to 3.5. Her kit was completely gutted. Have fun developing Zelda's metagame from scratch everybody...

 

[Kaeldiar]

Not impressed with the unjustified Zelda nerfs. No love jump.

We have Nayru's glide, which gives her a horizontal boost

No farores cancel.

It can be canceled both in the air and on the ground with a B input. It's just not as good.

Fair/bair sweetspot hitbox is smaller and does less knockback.

The sweetspot is the same size as the Melee sized sweetspot from 3.02. It does 18 damage (19 on the first frame) and has power between the critical from 3.02 and the Melee sized sweetspot from 3.02


All that said...

Theres no excuse for this. Zelda imo feels more changed than any PM character in the transition from 3.02 to 3.5. Her kit was completely gutted. Have fun developing Zelda's metagame from scratch everybody...

There is no excuse for this. She doesn't feel like Zelda anymore. She doesn't play like a Zelda would play. Her metagame DOES have to be re-worked. I don't like her. I'm going to work with her and try to figure her out for the sake of giving it a shot. The PMDT put effort into making Zelda, so I'm going to put effort into showing this was a mistake.


MY MAJOR CONCERN:
When I first came in to the PM scene (when 3.0 was out), I could immediately see how a skilled player could effectively use Din's to enhance Zelda's playstyle. I could see how it would help her start, continue, and finish the combos that she had. It helped her. The new Din's...completely re-works her. I don't see how I could ever prefer this Din's, and, while I see the utility and spacing/control ability it has, this ability is VERY diminished from 3.02. It just doesn't seem to work very well. I'll keep working with it, as I said, but my expectations are low.

 

[ObdurateMARio]

I know people are salty because Zelda's big change has resulted in the necessity to start her metagame nearly over again, which really puts her behind the 8 ball. HOWEVER I would argue that Zelda was a character whose design was not one that fell in line with the rest of Project M. I'm not saying 3.02 Zelda was easy, or cheap (I'm not trying to John here, just hear me out). But, she was a character that played EXTREMELY different from the rest of the cast. This inherently isn't an issue, but her playstyle isn't fun to play against. It's pretty common knowledge that playing against Zelda in 3.02 required you to essentially sit around and wait for Zelda to commit to something, and then punish. That's a viable strategy against most characters, however the fact that this is the ONLY effective way to approach a Zelda out of neutral makes the game not FUN for the other player. I know that most of us take PM seriously, and sometimes we lose sight, but the objective of the game is ultimately to be enjoyable, and the majority of non-Zelda players that I've spoken to all agree, Zelda in 3.02 isn't fun to play against. Even when you win big, it's still not fun. This is why PMBR reworked Zelda from the ground up, because light tweaks and nerfs here/there would have brought her in balance, but they wouldn't have addressed the core issue of Zelda, which is that her inherent design of 3.02 and previous was not what PMBR felt was appropriate. (this last sentence is my own theorizing, I don't have any concrete evidence of this.)

Flame me if you want, I'm only trying to offer the perspective of someone who regularly plays against a Zelda. I know you guys are behind the 8 ball now on metagame, and that kind of sucks. But I bet you in a couple months there will be people playing Zelda in a more aggressive, combo-y fashion. But I argue that in the long term, Zelda was a character that needed a fundamental rework in order to instill a less campy, frustrating, and defensive playstyle.

 

[ObdurateMARio]

And for what it's worth, Snake saw some substantial nerfs to his campiness also, as I believe those 2 characters to be the 'campiest' characters in PM 3.02. I feel that this evidences my previous post. I feel like one of PMBR's goals with 3.5 was to instill a more aggressive game, in which the aggressor is rewarded for sound fundamental play.

 

[Tweedle]

I know people are salty because Zelda's big change has resulted in the necessity to start her metagame nearly over again, which really puts her behind the 8 ball. HOWEVER I would argue that Zelda was a character whose design was not one that fell in line with the rest of Project M. I'm not saying 3.02 Zelda was easy, or cheap (I'm not trying to John here, just hear me out). But, she was a character that played EXTREMELY different from the rest of the cast. This inherently isn't an issue, but her playstyle isn't fun to play against. It's pretty common knowledge that playing against Zelda in 3.02 required you to essentially sit around and wait for Zelda to commit to something, and then punish. That's a viable strategy against most characters, however the fact that this is the ONLY effective way to approach a Zelda out of neutral makes the game not FUN for the other player. I know that most of us take PM seriously, and sometimes we lose sight, but the objective of the game is ultimately to be enjoyable, and the majority of non-Zelda players that I've spoken to all agree, Zelda in 3.02 isn't fun to play against. Even when you win big, it's still not fun. This is why PMBR reworked Zelda from the ground up, because light tweaks and nerfs here/there would have brought her in balance, but they wouldn't have addressed the core issue of Zelda, which is that her inherent design of 3.02 and previous was not what PMBR felt was appropriate. (this last sentence is my own theorizing, I don't have any concrete evidence of this.)

Flame me if you want, I'm only trying to offer the perspective of someone who regularly plays against a Zelda. I know you guys are behind the 8 ball now on metagame, and that kind of sucks. But I bet you in a couple months there will be people playing Zelda in a more aggressive, combo-y fashion. But I argue that in the long term, Zelda was a character that needed a fundamental rework in order to instill a less campy, frustrating, and defensive playstyle.

Did they really have to change so much though? I think they decided to change too much. Just tweaks and lessen the amount of dins she could use would have been fine, I think. At least release her like that and ask people fighting her if its better. I'm sure it would have been.