TimeSmash
Smash Champion
Hey everyone, basically this is a placeholder post at the moment. But this thread will be used to document the changes that occur to Zelda from 3.02 to 3.5 when it comes out! I'll be trying to compile things like frame data, aesthetic differences, changes in move properties, changes in move knockback, changes in move damage, and the like, so when the time comes feel free to help out!!!
Below is the changelog, with a simplified version by @E.C.H.O.
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Below is the changelog, with a simplified version by @E.C.H.O.
E.C.H.O.'s notesDMG = Damage.
KB = Knockback
KBG = Knockback Growth. This value determines how quickly a hitbox's KB scales with the opponents percent. Damage is also a major factor in determining scaling.
BKB = Base Knockback. This amount of KB is added to the end result of the knockback formula and is most noticeable a low percents.
WDSK = Weight Dependent Set Knockback. As the name impies, this is a type of KB that is set and does not scale with percent, and instead has a set amount that varies only based on the opponents weight. KBG in this instance is used as a multiplier, but is usually set at 100.
IASA = Interruptible As Soon As. This is a long-standing term in competitive Smash that refers to the first frame that a character can interrupt an attack, often before the full animation has completed visually. Generally this will be used to describe endlag increases and decreases.
Hitlag = The amount of freeze frames a character goes into when hit by a hitbox. This term will usually be used to describe a multiplier that increases or decreases the amount of hitlag that a hitbox would normally induce.
SDI = Smash DI, the ability for a player to move around while in Hitlag based on control stick input. This term will usually be used to describe a multiplier that increases or decreases the effectiveness of SDIing an attack.
Angle/Trajectory = This describes the angle at which an opponent is sent flying after being hit by a hitbox. 90 is straight up, while 0 is a purely horizontal trajectory.
361 angle = This angle is used throughout the game as a dynamic replacement to what would otherwise be 45, the go-to "horizontal attack" angle. This angle starts off sending further horizontally than 45 at lower KBs, but quickly scales up to 45 in-game. For all intents and purposes you can imagine the trajectory as simply being 45.
Changelog starts here
Tilts
-Forward Tilt: Tip angle 108->110 to match other upwards hitboxes. BKB/KBG adjusted. Hitbox terminates one frame earlier to trim excessive lingering. Hitlag/SDI modifiers now 1.0x.
-Up Tilt: Damage 12->15 on early hit, 11->13 on late hit, KBG compensated. Late hit angle 92->85, begins when arm is around 1 o'clock position instead of behind.
-Down Tilt: Damage 7/8 -> 10/11, KBG compensated. Simplified hitboxes to maintain same usage, but have less hitbox commands.
Smashes
-Forward Smash: Hitlag multipliers 0x -> 0.7x, SDI multipliers 0x -> 0.25x
-Up Smash: Endlag reduced by 1 frame, to match Melee IASA. Removed extra linking hit previously added to 2nd attack wave, which increased the damage. Now 16->15 damage. BKB reduced slightly, KBG increased to compensate. Angle 90-88. SDI multipliers (0.15, 0.2, 0.25) -> 0.25x
-Down Smash: Removed pointless fully overlapped hitbox on foot, front hit terminates one frame earlier to not connect on opponents behind you and preventing the stronger back hit from hitting, or sometimes double hitting.
Aerials
-Neutral Aerial: Landing hitbox vs grounded opponents WDSK 54-40 to induce a less erratic hitstun animation. SDI multipliers on outer hits 0.4x -> 0.5x.
-Forward Aerial: Super sweetspot removed. Sweetspot damage 18(initial hit frame)/16(remaining hit window) -> 19/16. Overlapping flub hitbox on leg moved to cover hip.
-Back Aerial: Super sweetspot removed. Sweetspot damage 17/15 -> 18/15. Overlapping flub hitbox on leg moved to cover hip.
-Up Aerial: Electric flub hitbox angle 85->75, KBG 75-100, BKB 64-60. Hitlag multiplier on early hitbox 0.6 -> 1.0
Grabs
-Standing Grab: Grabs on Frame 8 from 9. Active for 2 frame from 3. Grabboxes cleaned up.
-Turn Grab: Grab duration reduced from 3->2 to match other turn grabs. Hitboxes cleaned up.
-Pummel: Damage decreased from 4->3, but slightly faster.
Throws
-Forward Throw: Release point is closer and lower to combo better. BKB 68->60, Damage decreased from 12->10, KBG compensated. Endlag uses added IASA and less drastic FSM to look more natural.
-Up Throw: Damage decreased from 9-8, KB values compensated. Releases a frame faster.
-Down Throw: Damage decreased from 15->14, KB values compensated.
Specials
-Neutral Special (Nayru's Love): Character momentum resets properly. Cleaned up hitboxes so being hit by the edges of last hit has reversible KB, but being hit within the outer edges still sends the way Zelda is facing.
--Grounded: Final hit angle 45/40 -> 361, BKB 55/50->50, KBG compensated. Startup reduced by 3 frames.
--Aerial: Intangibility removed. Angle 60/55 -> 55, BKB 50/45 -> 45, KBG compensated. SDI 0.5x->0.8 on linking hits. Land cancel occurs slightly later and startup reduced by 3 frames for same total time.
-Forward Special (Din's Fire):
--Proximity hitbox increased in size, does more damage to shields, damage increases with charge time, and initial uncharged size is larger. Time out explosion is slightly larger and does more damage. Startup reduced. Air IASA matches the faster ground IASA. When placing the Din's, it now begins fast and decelerates as it gets bigger.
--Amount of Din's active on screen at one time decreased 3->1. Camera now tracks the Din's Fire and keeps it on screen.
--While in play, performing Forward Special again will activate the Din's, causing a small explosion before heading on a return path back towards Zelda with a weak hitbox, and refreshing the hitbox if the Din's was already in motion. If the proximity hitbox hits, is shielded, or is clanked while stationary this will also cause it to return to her. The returning movement and turning speed is slower the more it is charged, with sufficient charge allowing for Zelda to avoid re-catching it immediately. If it does not reach Zelda after a few seconds, it will expire and disappear on its own without being re-caught.
--If Zelda is hit/grabbed while it is in motion, it will unlink from her and travel in a straight line, unless she reactivates it (while linked a flashing red GFX on her hand is present). It will also not track Zelda or be re-caught and travel straight ahead if Zelda is invisible or KOed. If left stationary for a few seconds it will self detonate with a much larger and powerful explosion.
-Up Special (Farore's Wind): Airdodge interrupt out of ground only teleport removed, replaced with a B press to cancel/shorten movement during ground or aerial teleport that preserves sliding momentum and is able to snap onto platforms even when passing upwards through them, similar to wavelanding.
--Ground to ground Farore cancel has shortest ending animation, comparable to airdodge landing lag. Ground startup hitbox changed from 95 BKB/0 KBG -> 95 WDSK.
--Aerial ending no longer halts vertical, allowing sliding up walls a bit after reappearing when teleporting upwards to edges. Aerial Farore FSM on ending removed, with air mobility beginning later to increase commitment to her original travel direction. Land lag from reappearing in air increased from 20->30. KB of non-cancelled reappearance hit Angle 60->50, KBG 46->120, BKB 100->45.
-Down Special (Transform) Air IASA after switching 1->7 to match grounded. Gravity decreased from 0.04 -> 0.03 to offset the longer aerial IASA. Initiates Din's into strong/large self detonation on frame 21, which then explodes on frame 49 when she disappears.
Others
-Dash acceleration increased to match Melee acceleration to dash speed ratio.
-Airdodge and jumps' stage collision detection adjusted, improving wavelanding ability significantly.
--Air Dodge vulnerability and enabling of gravity/fastfall/mobility begins 10 frames sooner to match Melee.
-Hitlag multiplier on UTaunt 0.25x -> 1.0x.
-Hitlag multiplier on Staunt 0.5x->1.0x.
-Jab Angle 55->361, hitbox size slightly decreased on last hit. SDI multiplier on final hit now 1.0x.
-Dash Attack Angle 78->88. Late hit terminates 1 frame earlier when her arms are no longer in front. Travels across a slightly larger area while the strong hit is out.
NOTE: Green/Red bullets are simply to denote increases/decreases in values, and are not meant to imply whether the change is considered a buff/nerf; excepting the hitlag and SDI multipliers, which are reversed (I'm all sure we can agree with those being buffs/nerfs lol). Blue bullets denote either a change that includes both increased and decreased values, or a change in value that can't technically be considered an increase/decrease.
DAMAGE:
• U-Tilt (12->15 on early hit, 11->13 on late hit)
• D-Tilt (Damage 7/8 -> 10/11)
• U-Smash (Removed extra linking hit previously added to 2nd attack wave, which increased damage. Now 16 -> 15 damage)
• F-Air (Sweetspot damage 18(initial hit frame)/16(remaining hit window) -> 19/16)
• B-Air (Sweetspot damage 17/15 -> 18/15)
• Grab Pummel (Damage decreased from 4->3, but slightly faster)
• F-Throw (Damage decreased from 12->10)
• U-Throw (Damage decreased from 9-8)
• D-Throw (Damage decreased from 15-14)
ANGLE: (HIGHER/LOWER)
• Jab (Angle 55->361. 361 basically = 45 in Smash, for those who don't know)
• Dash Attack (Angle 78->88)
• F-Tilt (Tip angle 108->110 to match other upwards hitboxes)
• U-tilt (Late hit angle 92->85, begins when arm is around 1 o'clock position instead of behind)
• U-Air (Electric flub hitbox angle 85->75)
• U-Smash (Angle 90-88)
• F-Throw (Release point is closer and lower to combo better)
BASE KNOCKBACK:
• F-Tilt (Tip angle 108->110...BKB/KBG adjusted)
• U-Smash (BKB reduced slightly)
• U-Air (BKB 64-60)
• F-Throw (Release point is closer...to combo better. BKB 68 ->60)
• U-Throw (Damage decreased from 9-8, KB values compensated)
• D-Throw (Damage decreased from 15->14, KB values compensated)
KNOCKBACK GROWTH:
• F-Tilt (Tip angle 108->110...BKB/KBG adjusted)
• U-Tilt (Damage 12->15 on early hit, 11->13 on late hit, KBG compensated)
• D-Tilt (Damage 7/8 -> 10/11, KBG compensated)
• U-Smash (BKB reduced slightly, KBG increased to compensate)
• U-Air (KBG 75-100)
• F-Throw (Damage decreased from 12->10, KBG compensated)
• U-Throw (Damage decreased from 9-8, KB values compensated)
• D-Throw (Damage decreased from 15-14, KB values compensated)
WEIGHT DEPENDENT SET KNOCKBACK:
• N-Air (Landing hitbox vs grounded opponents WDSK 54-40 to induce a less erratic hitstun animation)
HITBOXES: (BIGGER/SMALLER) (ADDITION/REMOVAL)
• Jab (hitbox size slightly decreased on last hit)
• Dash Attack (Travels across a slightly larger area while the strong hit is out)
• D-Tilt (Simplified hitboxes to maintain same usage, but have less hitbox commands)
• U-Smash (Removed extra linking hit previously added to 2nd attack wave, which increased damage)
• D-Smash (Removed pointless fully overlapped hitbox on foot, front hit terminates one frame earlier to not connect on opponents behind you and preventing the stronger back hit from hitting, or sometimes double hitting)
• F-Air (Super sweetspot removed...Overlapping flub hitbox on leg moved to cover hip)
• B-Air (Super sweetspot removed...Overlapping flub hitbox on leg moved to cover hip)
• Standing Grab (Grabboxes cleaned up)
• Turn Grab (Hitboxes cleaned up)
FRAMES: (SHORTER/LONGER STARTUP+ENDLAG) (LONGER/SHORTER ACTIVE DURATION)
• Dash Attack (Late hit terminates 1 frame earlier when her arms are no longer in front)
• F-Tilt (Hitbox terminates one frame earlier to trim excessive lingering)
• U-Smash (Endlag reduced by 1 frame, to match Melee IASA)
• D-Smash (front hit terminates one frame earlier to not connect on opponents behind you and preventing the stronger back hit from hitting, or sometimes double hitting)
• Standing Grab (Grabs on Frame 8 from 9. Active for 2 frame from 3)
• Turn Grab (Grab duration reduced from 3->2 to match other turn grabs)
• Grab Pummel (Damage decreased from 4->3, but slightly faster)
• F-Throw (Endlag uses added IASA and less drastic FSM to look more natural)
• U-Throw (Releases a frame faster)
HITLAG MULTIPLIER: (DECREASE/INCREASE) (REMOVAL/ADDITION)
• F-Tilt (Hitlag/SDI modifiers now 1.0x)
• F-Smash (Hitlag multipliers 0x -> 0.7x)
• U-Air (Hitlag multiplier on early hitbox 0.6 -> 1.0)
• U-Taunt (Hitlag multiplier...0.25x -> 1.0x)
• S-Taunt (Hitlag multiplier...0.5x->1.0x)
SDI MULTIPLIERS: (DECREASE/INCREASE) (REMOVAL/ADDITION)
• Jab (SDI multiplier on final hit now 1.0x)
• F-Tilt (Hitlag/SDI modifiers now 1.0x)
• F-Smash (SDI multipliers 0x -> 0.25x)
• U-Smash (SDI multipliers (0.15, 0.2, 0.25) -> 0.25x)
• N-Air (SDI multipliers on outer hits 0.4x -> 0.5x)
DAMAGE:
• U-Tilt (12->15 on early hit, 11->13 on late hit)
• D-Tilt (Damage 7/8 -> 10/11)
• U-Smash (Removed extra linking hit previously added to 2nd attack wave, which increased damage. Now 16 -> 15 damage)
• F-Air (Sweetspot damage 18(initial hit frame)/16(remaining hit window) -> 19/16)
• B-Air (Sweetspot damage 17/15 -> 18/15)
• Grab Pummel (Damage decreased from 4->3, but slightly faster)
• F-Throw (Damage decreased from 12->10)
• U-Throw (Damage decreased from 9-8)
• D-Throw (Damage decreased from 15-14)
ANGLE: (HIGHER/LOWER)
• Jab (Angle 55->361. 361 basically = 45 in Smash, for those who don't know)
• Dash Attack (Angle 78->88)
• F-Tilt (Tip angle 108->110 to match other upwards hitboxes)
• U-tilt (Late hit angle 92->85, begins when arm is around 1 o'clock position instead of behind)
• U-Air (Electric flub hitbox angle 85->75)
• U-Smash (Angle 90-88)
• F-Throw (Release point is closer and lower to combo better)
BASE KNOCKBACK:
• F-Tilt (Tip angle 108->110...BKB/KBG adjusted)
• U-Smash (BKB reduced slightly)
• U-Air (BKB 64-60)
• F-Throw (Release point is closer...to combo better. BKB 68 ->60)
• U-Throw (Damage decreased from 9-8, KB values compensated)
• D-Throw (Damage decreased from 15->14, KB values compensated)
KNOCKBACK GROWTH:
• F-Tilt (Tip angle 108->110...BKB/KBG adjusted)
• U-Tilt (Damage 12->15 on early hit, 11->13 on late hit, KBG compensated)
• D-Tilt (Damage 7/8 -> 10/11, KBG compensated)
• U-Smash (BKB reduced slightly, KBG increased to compensate)
• U-Air (KBG 75-100)
• F-Throw (Damage decreased from 12->10, KBG compensated)
• U-Throw (Damage decreased from 9-8, KB values compensated)
• D-Throw (Damage decreased from 15-14, KB values compensated)
WEIGHT DEPENDENT SET KNOCKBACK:
• N-Air (Landing hitbox vs grounded opponents WDSK 54-40 to induce a less erratic hitstun animation)
HITBOXES: (BIGGER/SMALLER) (ADDITION/REMOVAL)
• Jab (hitbox size slightly decreased on last hit)
• Dash Attack (Travels across a slightly larger area while the strong hit is out)
• D-Tilt (Simplified hitboxes to maintain same usage, but have less hitbox commands)
• U-Smash (Removed extra linking hit previously added to 2nd attack wave, which increased damage)
• D-Smash (Removed pointless fully overlapped hitbox on foot, front hit terminates one frame earlier to not connect on opponents behind you and preventing the stronger back hit from hitting, or sometimes double hitting)
• F-Air (Super sweetspot removed...Overlapping flub hitbox on leg moved to cover hip)
• B-Air (Super sweetspot removed...Overlapping flub hitbox on leg moved to cover hip)
• Standing Grab (Grabboxes cleaned up)
• Turn Grab (Hitboxes cleaned up)
FRAMES: (SHORTER/LONGER STARTUP+ENDLAG) (LONGER/SHORTER ACTIVE DURATION)
• Dash Attack (Late hit terminates 1 frame earlier when her arms are no longer in front)
• F-Tilt (Hitbox terminates one frame earlier to trim excessive lingering)
• U-Smash (Endlag reduced by 1 frame, to match Melee IASA)
• D-Smash (front hit terminates one frame earlier to not connect on opponents behind you and preventing the stronger back hit from hitting, or sometimes double hitting)
• Standing Grab (Grabs on Frame 8 from 9. Active for 2 frame from 3)
• Turn Grab (Grab duration reduced from 3->2 to match other turn grabs)
• Grab Pummel (Damage decreased from 4->3, but slightly faster)
• F-Throw (Endlag uses added IASA and less drastic FSM to look more natural)
• U-Throw (Releases a frame faster)
HITLAG MULTIPLIER: (DECREASE/INCREASE) (REMOVAL/ADDITION)
• F-Tilt (Hitlag/SDI modifiers now 1.0x)
• F-Smash (Hitlag multipliers 0x -> 0.7x)
• U-Air (Hitlag multiplier on early hitbox 0.6 -> 1.0)
• U-Taunt (Hitlag multiplier...0.25x -> 1.0x)
• S-Taunt (Hitlag multiplier...0.5x->1.0x)
SDI MULTIPLIERS: (DECREASE/INCREASE) (REMOVAL/ADDITION)
• Jab (SDI multiplier on final hit now 1.0x)
• F-Tilt (Hitlag/SDI modifiers now 1.0x)
• F-Smash (SDI multipliers 0x -> 0.25x)
• U-Smash (SDI multipliers (0.15, 0.2, 0.25) -> 0.25x)
• N-Air (SDI multipliers on outer hits 0.4x -> 0.5x)
WAVEDASHES/WAVELANDS:
• Airdodge and jumps' stage collision detection adjusted, improving wavelanding ability significantly.
• Airdodge vulnerability and enabling of gravity/fastfall/mobility begins 10 frames sooner to match Melee.
Those two things are pretty big deals. WD/WLs are noticeably longer, and from the sounds of it, the second point allows us to act out of WD/WLs sooner. So...that's bueno. Shorter airdodge invulnerability sucks but meh, who cares.
• Airdodge and jumps' stage collision detection adjusted, improving wavelanding ability significantly.
• Airdodge vulnerability and enabling of gravity/fastfall/mobility begins 10 frames sooner to match Melee.
Those two things are pretty big deals. WD/WLs are noticeably longer, and from the sounds of it, the second point allows us to act out of WD/WLs sooner. So...that's bueno. Shorter airdodge invulnerability sucks but meh, who cares.
NEUTRAL-B (NAYRUS):
• Character momentum resets properly.
• Cleaned up hitboxes so being hit by the edges of last hit has reversible KB, but being hit within the outer edges still sends the way Zelda is facing.
• Grounded: Final hit angle 45/40 -> 361, BKB 55/50->50, KBG compensated. Startup reduced by 3 frames.
• Aerial: Intangibility removed. Angle 60/55 -> 55, BKB 50/45 -> 45, KBG compensated. SDI 0.5x->0.8 on linking hits. Land cancel occurs slightly later and startup reduced by 3 frames for same total time.
Oh...where to start. It got pooped on. First off all, it should be pointed out that the changelist has completely neglected to detail how tiny Nayrus' range has been made. Bullet 1 is a cop-out fancy way of telling us Love Jumps / Diamond Dives are gone. I need some hitbox .gifs to make sure I'm understanding Bullet 2 correctly, but from the sounds of it and from trying it out myself, the reversible KB is much harder to get now than in 3.02. Is it trying to say that only the very last hit on the outer edge has reversible KB? Bullets 3+4 are...meh. Just the usual minor buffs that don't mean much, and SDI multiplier nerfs. We lose aerial invulnerability, too. Not sure what the implications of the Land-cancelling changes will have though, but they feel about the same to me. On that note, with the removal of Love Jumps, land-cancelling Nayrus out of hitstun is a viable option against opponents following-up carelessly. There's no invulnerability anymore so it's not super safe, but from my experience so far, it puts opponents on the defensive worrying about it while I'm still at low %s. The removal of Love Jumps also means that Zelda can at least stall with Nayrus, although that's not very safe unless you're fairly high up. Overall, Nayrus remains a good follow-up, break-out-of-combos, bad-approach-punisher, and oos option, albeit now terrible for spacing and lacking in its former flexible range of functions. Read: still pretty ok on stage, no longer usable for god-tier recovery. I sorta understand the reasoning there I guess, just hurts a bit :x
SIDE-B (DINS):
• Proximity hitbox increased in size, does more damage to shields, damage increases with charge time, and initial uncharged size is larger. Time out explosion is slightly larger and does more damage. Startup reduced. Air IASA matches the faster ground IASA. When placing the Din's, it now begins fast and decelerates as it gets bigger.
• Amount of Din's active on screen at one time decreased 3->1. Camera now tracks the Din's Fire and keeps it on screen.
• While in play, performing Forward Special again will activate the Din's, causing a small explosion before heading on a return path back towards Zelda with a weak hitbox, and refreshing the hitbox if the Din's was already in motion. If the proximity hitbox hits, is shielded, or is clanked while stationary this will also cause it to return to her. The returning movement and turning peed is slower the more it is charged, with sufficient charge allowing for Zelda to avoid re-catching it immediately. If it does not reach Zelda after a few seconds, it will expire and disappear on its own without being re-caught.
• If Zelda is hit/grabbed while it is in motion, it will unlink from her and travel in a straight line, unless she reactivates it (While linked a flashing red GFX on her hand is present). It will also not track Zelda or be re-caught and travel straight ahead if Zelda is invisible or KOed. If left stationary for a few seconds it will self detonate with a much larger and powerful explosion.
Bullet 1 explains that the proximity hitbox (pre-explosion + stationary) is just better in general. Which may be the case, but it's much less threatening in this manner, given its just a single din by itself. The startup and air endlag reductions are obv. nice though. The timing and directional control for placing Dins is completely different; little vertical control, but much quicker horizontal speed at first (allowing for super quick, easy follow-ups after knocking them away). Because of this, placing Dins between yourself and a close opponent isn't really an option anymore, but you can still do so (and much more quickly) if they're further away, or put one behind them to zone / encourage further approaching. Bullet 2+3 are why Dins now come off as much more threatening. During their stationary and later mobile states, the now single, larger, more-quickly-placed Din is made more obvious by the camera influence. Now that they're more aware of it, opponents are more likely to pay more attention to avoiding Dins; take advantage of this if they approach you (after setting a Din behind them) by being careful to limit their escape options as you approach them, and punish any mistakes with Zelda stuff. You know...LKs, N-Air, U-Air, Nayrus, F-Tilt/U-Smash, etc. Bullet 4 isn't as bad as it sounds. If you get hit immediately after it starts following you, it'll leave its trajectory while it's still circling away from you...which sucks, but re-catching Dins is simply and can stall in the air to help recovery (opposite of when setting Dins, which gives her a ton of downward airborne momentum instead, reminiscent of Diamond Diving). The new Dins is amazing when placed past recovering opponents, too; I'm sure you've all tried it by now. Dins circle back downwards when withdrawn while level to Zelda, and circle back upwards if withdrawn while above. So Dins should be placed below stage level, just above the opponent if they're recovering low to catch them, or higher than Zelda, just below the opponent, if they're recovering high. It should also be noted that spamming the Din explosion on the return trip is great for stalling the Dins' travel and mixing up the timing against opponents that stay in shield or by the edge too much. Bigger+slower dins are obv. better for that stalling. So explode it once or twice while they have ledge invincibility on purpose, and then let it hit them once they get up as you go in with an LK/whatever after hit-confirm.
UP-B (FARORES):
• Airdodge interrupt out of ground only teleport removed, replaced with a B press to cancel/shorten movement during ground or aerial teleport that preserves sliding momentum and is able to snap onto platforms when passing upwards through them, similar to wavelanding.
• Ground to ground Farore cancel has shortest ending animation, comparable to airdodge landing lag. Ground startup hitbox changed from 95 BKB/0 KBG -> 95 WDSK.
• Aerial ending no longer halts vertical, allowing sliding up walls a bit after reappearing when teleporting upwards to edges. Aerial Farore FSM on ending removed, with air mobility when teleporting upwards through edges. Aerial Farore FSM on ending removed, with air mobility beginning later to increase commitment to her original travel direction. Land lag from reappearing in air increased from 20->30. KB of non-cancelled reappearance hit Angle 60->50, KBG 46->120, BKB 100->45.
Bullet 1 is where all the meat is. As others have mentioned, the new Teleshort B-cancel leaves Zelda with no momentum upon reappearance, so movements/actions out of teleshort are pretty much limited to standing actions, minus jump/dash. Even with standing options, she has a hefty bit more endlag more than she would out of Teledash's wavelands; on top of Teledash letting Zelda appear before opponents and waveland behind them for mindgame stuff, Teleshorts aren't nearly as safe. Cancel-able teleports that were started while airborne are great if recovering on stage from above, though. Stages with platforms by the edge are now much safer stage picks for Zelda, given her weakened recovery (no love jumps~...). Bullet 3 is something us Zeldas all noticed in 3.02 and prob wanted fixed, but tbh it has prob hurt us more than it helped. Leaving in the object collision going upwards really was only a bad thing if you didn't know to just return the control stick to neutral; it was more of just a game-design-completion-ist idea, so that Zelda scrubs & cpus wouldn't SD every time and not understand why. Now that the oject collision has been removed, sweetspotting from below the edge can sometimes be a huge pain in the arse, since she no longer snaps easily to the ledge and just goes straight over, until you get the Teleshort B-cancel timing down. It's really the only way to sweetspot, and at least for now, while I'm not 100% consistent with the timing...it seems pretty silly. If Zelda doesn't sweetspot edge and goes over, she'll just keep eating scrubby smash edgeguards. If she cuts the cancel teleshort too short, it's an instant SD. Even if you do get the timing down, since you're cancelling the teleport that has a hitbox on reapperance, it's super easy for the opponent to just edge hog. On a final note, the fact that horizontal momentum has been reduced for a short time after reappearance means Zelda can't simply wait to fall to the height at which she can sweetspot edge normally on Distant Planet with full-length teleport; now that the walls at the bottom curve outwards further than they do at the top, it'll push Zelda too far horizontally to effectively sweetspot the ledge using tele's full distance. She has to use the teleshort B-cancel on that stage now to sweetspot, if recovering from below, making it super easy for opponents to edgeguard her in a similar fashion to edgeguarding Sheik - steal ledge so she's forced to recover on to the stage, and then punish her hard during her (now longer) landing lag. If she chooses to go use the full length teleport distance (diagonally from below) instead, she'll probably eat a B-air/D-air from ledge if her opponent is any good.
• Character momentum resets properly.
• Cleaned up hitboxes so being hit by the edges of last hit has reversible KB, but being hit within the outer edges still sends the way Zelda is facing.
• Grounded: Final hit angle 45/40 -> 361, BKB 55/50->50, KBG compensated. Startup reduced by 3 frames.
• Aerial: Intangibility removed. Angle 60/55 -> 55, BKB 50/45 -> 45, KBG compensated. SDI 0.5x->0.8 on linking hits. Land cancel occurs slightly later and startup reduced by 3 frames for same total time.
Oh...where to start. It got pooped on. First off all, it should be pointed out that the changelist has completely neglected to detail how tiny Nayrus' range has been made. Bullet 1 is a cop-out fancy way of telling us Love Jumps / Diamond Dives are gone. I need some hitbox .gifs to make sure I'm understanding Bullet 2 correctly, but from the sounds of it and from trying it out myself, the reversible KB is much harder to get now than in 3.02. Is it trying to say that only the very last hit on the outer edge has reversible KB? Bullets 3+4 are...meh. Just the usual minor buffs that don't mean much, and SDI multiplier nerfs. We lose aerial invulnerability, too. Not sure what the implications of the Land-cancelling changes will have though, but they feel about the same to me. On that note, with the removal of Love Jumps, land-cancelling Nayrus out of hitstun is a viable option against opponents following-up carelessly. There's no invulnerability anymore so it's not super safe, but from my experience so far, it puts opponents on the defensive worrying about it while I'm still at low %s. The removal of Love Jumps also means that Zelda can at least stall with Nayrus, although that's not very safe unless you're fairly high up. Overall, Nayrus remains a good follow-up, break-out-of-combos, bad-approach-punisher, and oos option, albeit now terrible for spacing and lacking in its former flexible range of functions. Read: still pretty ok on stage, no longer usable for god-tier recovery. I sorta understand the reasoning there I guess, just hurts a bit :x
SIDE-B (DINS):
• Proximity hitbox increased in size, does more damage to shields, damage increases with charge time, and initial uncharged size is larger. Time out explosion is slightly larger and does more damage. Startup reduced. Air IASA matches the faster ground IASA. When placing the Din's, it now begins fast and decelerates as it gets bigger.
• Amount of Din's active on screen at one time decreased 3->1. Camera now tracks the Din's Fire and keeps it on screen.
• While in play, performing Forward Special again will activate the Din's, causing a small explosion before heading on a return path back towards Zelda with a weak hitbox, and refreshing the hitbox if the Din's was already in motion. If the proximity hitbox hits, is shielded, or is clanked while stationary this will also cause it to return to her. The returning movement and turning peed is slower the more it is charged, with sufficient charge allowing for Zelda to avoid re-catching it immediately. If it does not reach Zelda after a few seconds, it will expire and disappear on its own without being re-caught.
• If Zelda is hit/grabbed while it is in motion, it will unlink from her and travel in a straight line, unless she reactivates it (While linked a flashing red GFX on her hand is present). It will also not track Zelda or be re-caught and travel straight ahead if Zelda is invisible or KOed. If left stationary for a few seconds it will self detonate with a much larger and powerful explosion.
Bullet 1 explains that the proximity hitbox (pre-explosion + stationary) is just better in general. Which may be the case, but it's much less threatening in this manner, given its just a single din by itself. The startup and air endlag reductions are obv. nice though. The timing and directional control for placing Dins is completely different; little vertical control, but much quicker horizontal speed at first (allowing for super quick, easy follow-ups after knocking them away). Because of this, placing Dins between yourself and a close opponent isn't really an option anymore, but you can still do so (and much more quickly) if they're further away, or put one behind them to zone / encourage further approaching. Bullet 2+3 are why Dins now come off as much more threatening. During their stationary and later mobile states, the now single, larger, more-quickly-placed Din is made more obvious by the camera influence. Now that they're more aware of it, opponents are more likely to pay more attention to avoiding Dins; take advantage of this if they approach you (after setting a Din behind them) by being careful to limit their escape options as you approach them, and punish any mistakes with Zelda stuff. You know...LKs, N-Air, U-Air, Nayrus, F-Tilt/U-Smash, etc. Bullet 4 isn't as bad as it sounds. If you get hit immediately after it starts following you, it'll leave its trajectory while it's still circling away from you...which sucks, but re-catching Dins is simply and can stall in the air to help recovery (opposite of when setting Dins, which gives her a ton of downward airborne momentum instead, reminiscent of Diamond Diving). The new Dins is amazing when placed past recovering opponents, too; I'm sure you've all tried it by now. Dins circle back downwards when withdrawn while level to Zelda, and circle back upwards if withdrawn while above. So Dins should be placed below stage level, just above the opponent if they're recovering low to catch them, or higher than Zelda, just below the opponent, if they're recovering high. It should also be noted that spamming the Din explosion on the return trip is great for stalling the Dins' travel and mixing up the timing against opponents that stay in shield or by the edge too much. Bigger+slower dins are obv. better for that stalling. So explode it once or twice while they have ledge invincibility on purpose, and then let it hit them once they get up as you go in with an LK/whatever after hit-confirm.
UP-B (FARORES):
• Airdodge interrupt out of ground only teleport removed, replaced with a B press to cancel/shorten movement during ground or aerial teleport that preserves sliding momentum and is able to snap onto platforms when passing upwards through them, similar to wavelanding.
• Ground to ground Farore cancel has shortest ending animation, comparable to airdodge landing lag. Ground startup hitbox changed from 95 BKB/0 KBG -> 95 WDSK.
• Aerial ending no longer halts vertical, allowing sliding up walls a bit after reappearing when teleporting upwards to edges. Aerial Farore FSM on ending removed, with air mobility when teleporting upwards through edges. Aerial Farore FSM on ending removed, with air mobility beginning later to increase commitment to her original travel direction. Land lag from reappearing in air increased from 20->30. KB of non-cancelled reappearance hit Angle 60->50, KBG 46->120, BKB 100->45.
Bullet 1 is where all the meat is. As others have mentioned, the new Teleshort B-cancel leaves Zelda with no momentum upon reappearance, so movements/actions out of teleshort are pretty much limited to standing actions, minus jump/dash. Even with standing options, she has a hefty bit more endlag more than she would out of Teledash's wavelands; on top of Teledash letting Zelda appear before opponents and waveland behind them for mindgame stuff, Teleshorts aren't nearly as safe. Cancel-able teleports that were started while airborne are great if recovering on stage from above, though. Stages with platforms by the edge are now much safer stage picks for Zelda, given her weakened recovery (no love jumps~...). Bullet 3 is something us Zeldas all noticed in 3.02 and prob wanted fixed, but tbh it has prob hurt us more than it helped. Leaving in the object collision going upwards really was only a bad thing if you didn't know to just return the control stick to neutral; it was more of just a game-design-completion-ist idea, so that Zelda scrubs & cpus wouldn't SD every time and not understand why. Now that the oject collision has been removed, sweetspotting from below the edge can sometimes be a huge pain in the arse, since she no longer snaps easily to the ledge and just goes straight over, until you get the Teleshort B-cancel timing down. It's really the only way to sweetspot, and at least for now, while I'm not 100% consistent with the timing...it seems pretty silly. If Zelda doesn't sweetspot edge and goes over, she'll just keep eating scrubby smash edgeguards. If she cuts the cancel teleshort too short, it's an instant SD. Even if you do get the timing down, since you're cancelling the teleport that has a hitbox on reapperance, it's super easy for the opponent to just edge hog. On a final note, the fact that horizontal momentum has been reduced for a short time after reappearance means Zelda can't simply wait to fall to the height at which she can sweetspot edge normally on Distant Planet with full-length teleport; now that the walls at the bottom curve outwards further than they do at the top, it'll push Zelda too far horizontally to effectively sweetspot the ledge using tele's full distance. She has to use the teleshort B-cancel on that stage now to sweetspot, if recovering from below, making it super easy for opponents to edgeguard her in a similar fashion to edgeguarding Sheik - steal ledge so she's forced to recover on to the stage, and then punish her hard during her (now longer) landing lag. If she chooses to go use the full length teleport distance (diagonally from below) instead, she'll probably eat a B-air/D-air from ledge if her opponent is any good.
For those of you who don't understand or don't have the time to break down what anything from the changelist means for us, I simplified it a bit via sorting things by how they were changed. afaik, Zelda has - by far - the most changes out of the roster, so it's important to look at the trends in changes in her moveset, rather than changes for individual moves, at least for normals.
NOTE: Green/Red bullets are simply to denote increases/decreases in values, and are not meant to imply whether the change is considered a buff/nerf; excepting the hitlag and SDI multipliers, which are reversed (I'm all sure we can agree with those being buffs/nerfs lol). Blue bullets denote either a change that includes both increased and decreased values, or a change in value that can't technically be considered an increase/decrease.
DAMAGE:
• U-Tilt (12->15 on early hit, 11->13 on late hit)
• D-Tilt (Damage 7/8 -> 10/11)
• U-Smash (Removed extra linking hit previously added to 2nd attack wave, which increased damage. Now 16 -> 15 damage)
• F-Air (Sweetspot damage 18(initial hit frame)/16(remaining hit window) -> 19/16)
• B-Air (Sweetspot damage 17/15 -> 18/15)
• Grab Pummel (Damage decreased from 4->3, but slightly faster)
• F-Throw (Damage decreased from 12->10)
• U-Throw (Damage decreased from 9-8)
• D-Throw (Damage decreased from 15-14)
ANGLE: (HIGHER/LOWER)
• Jab (Angle 55->361. 361 basically = 45 in Smash, for those who don't know)
• Dash Attack (Angle 78->88)
• F-Tilt (Tip angle 108->110 to match other upwards hitboxes)
• U-tilt (Late hit angle 92->85, begins when arm is around 1 o'clock position instead of behind)
• U-Air (Electric flub hitbox angle 85->75)
• U-Smash (Angle 90-88)
• F-Throw (Release point is closer and lower to combo better)
BASE KNOCKBACK:
• F-Tilt (Tip angle 108->110...BKB/KBG adjusted)
• U-Smash (BKB reduced slightly)
• U-Air (BKB 64-60)
• F-Throw (Release point is closer...to combo better. BKB 68 ->60)
• U-Throw (Damage decreased from 9-8, KB values compensated)
• D-Throw (Damage decreased from 15->14, KB values compensated)
KNOCKBACK GROWTH:
• F-Tilt (Tip angle 108->110...BKB/KBG adjusted)
• U-Tilt (Damage 12->15 on early hit, 11->13 on late hit, KBG compensated)
• D-Tilt (Damage 7/8 -> 10/11, KBG compensated)
• U-Smash (BKB reduced slightly, KBG increased to compensate)
• U-Air (KBG 75-100)
• F-Throw (Damage decreased from 12->10, KBG compensated)
• U-Throw (Damage decreased from 9-8, KB values compensated)
• D-Throw (Damage decreased from 15-14, KB values compensated)
WEIGHT DEPENDENT SET KNOCKBACK:
• N-Air (Landing hitbox vs grounded opponents WDSK 54-40 to induce a less erratic hitstun animation)
HITBOXES: (BIGGER/SMALLER) (ADDITION/REMOVAL)
• Jab (hitbox size slightly decreased on last hit)
• Dash Attack (Travels across a slightly larger area while the strong hit is out)
• D-Tilt (Simplified hitboxes to maintain same usage, but have less hitbox commands)
• U-Smash (Removed extra linking hit previously added to 2nd attack wave, which increased damage)
• D-Smash (Removed pointless fully overlapped hitbox on foot, front hit terminates one frame earlier to not connect on opponents behind you and preventing the stronger back hit from hitting, or sometimes double hitting)
• F-Air (Super sweetspot removed...Overlapping flub hitbox on leg moved to cover hip)
• B-Air (Super sweetspot removed...Overlapping flub hitbox on leg moved to cover hip)
• Standing Grab (Grabboxes cleaned up)
• Turn Grab (Hitboxes cleaned up)
FRAMES: (SHORTER/LONGER STARTUP+ENDLAG) (LONGER/SHORTER ACTIVE DURATION)
• Dash Attack (Late hit terminates 1 frame earlier when her arms are no longer in front)
• F-Tilt (Hitbox terminates one frame earlier to trim excessive lingering)
• U-Smash (Endlag reduced by 1 frame, to match Melee IASA)
• D-Smash (front hit terminates one frame earlier to not connect on opponents behind you and preventing the stronger back hit from hitting, or sometimes double hitting)
• Standing Grab (Grabs on Frame 8 from 9. Active for 2 frame from 3)
• Turn Grab (Grab duration reduced from 3->2 to match other turn grabs)
• Grab Pummel (Damage decreased from 4->3, but slightly faster)
• F-Throw (Endlag uses added IASA and less drastic FSM to look more natural)
• U-Throw (Releases a frame faster)
HITLAG MULTIPLIER: (DECREASE/INCREASE) (REMOVAL/ADDITION)
• F-Tilt (Hitlag/SDI modifiers now 1.0x)
• F-Smash (Hitlag multipliers 0x -> 0.7x)
• U-Air (Hitlag multiplier on early hitbox 0.6 -> 1.0)
• U-Taunt (Hitlag multiplier...0.25x -> 1.0x)
• S-Taunt (Hitlag multiplier...0.5x->1.0x)
SDI MULTIPLIERS: (DECREASE/INCREASE) (REMOVAL/ADDITION)
• Jab (SDI multiplier on final hit now 1.0x)
• F-Tilt (Hitlag/SDI modifiers now 1.0x)
• F-Smash (SDI multipliers 0x -> 0.25x)
• U-Smash (SDI multipliers (0.15, 0.2, 0.25) -> 0.25x)
• N-Air (SDI multipliers on outer hits 0.4x -> 0.5x)
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