BlackMamba
Smash Apprentice
Oooh ok that makes sense
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Song of Time: Zelda's Changes in PM. 3.6 HYPE
- Thread starter TimeSmash
- Start date
Reidlos Toof
Foot Dive!
What's funny is that in 3.5 I actually tended to telesnap from max range, so it actually took me a while to miss my first time and SD in 3.6. It does make me much more hesitant to even try though, considering that ****ing it up results in an immediate, unavoidable death.
The replacements I've been doing instead of telesnap are the karma drop, ledge canceling into turn around, the telecancel from the air (pretty bad at it still), and rar bair into waveland back. They seem like good replacements.
Besides that her fair and bair look a lot more like melee with her feet extended in like a straight line for awhile.
Besides that her fair and bair look a lot more like melee with her feet extended in like a straight line for awhile.
Vitriform
Smash Apprentice
I like the new Fair and Bair animations. I think the manual detonation animation for Din's Fire could use a bit of work though; it seems a little unpolished to me.
Yeah the manual detonation didn't look that nice but at least it's an animation instead of the hand sparkle.
Anyone a fan of the poof when you get a kill at higher percents? So far I haven't been a fan. Mostly cause when I get a bair or fair I already have a nice animation for the kill LOL.
Anyone a fan of the poof when you get a kill at higher percents? So far I haven't been a fan. Mostly cause when I get a bair or fair I already have a nice animation for the kill LOL.
Luis Alonso
Smash Journeyman
I'm a classic wavedash to edge guy myself, but Telesnapping from the air is pretty simple and I enjoy using it as much as a I can.
That being said, I thoroughly enjoy simply jumping onto the edge and doing an invincible ledge-stall. The possibility of a hard gimp is so satisfying.
That being said, I thoroughly enjoy simply jumping onto the edge and doing an invincible ledge-stall. The possibility of a hard gimp is so satisfying.
HanAmes
Smash Ace
Agreed. To me, it seems that Zelda's game have sped up a bit in this version, or I could be wrong, 3.6 could be sped up in general. Everything seems to be cool, except for the fact that I have to get used to teleporting to the ledge, now.
drsusredfish
Smash Ace
I like the idea of the "KO HIT" effect but the effect needs to be specialized to the character or to the type of move that hits. The latter may be easier to do. Like maybe meaty hits like Donkey Kongs or wario moves should keep the "poof" effect but things like zelda's or ness' kick's get a sparkle graphic. basically attacks that hit with elements could get different "KO HIT" effects.
WhiteCrow
Smash Journeyman
The KO aesthetic is a big bonus for Zelda now. It brought back the meatiness of the lightning kicks and Din detonations. The cleaned up lightning kick animation (which looks a lot like Elf's build) makes it easier to see your sweet spot range.
otheusrex
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
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- 342
I agree about the poof heavy kb special effects. Neat on some moves, looks weird on others. I don't think they're right for most of Zelda's moves; I think they should have a special "big" hit gfx for each element. The idea for a single stock KO gfx reminds me a lot of Black Lightning, which is cool, but if you compare the actual gfx with each other it does point out how lame the smoke looks comparatively
Farore's is everything I wanted now.
New detonate animation looks really nice with b-reverse side-b (which can consistently force an orbit, if you guys didn't know
)
And lightning kick feels amazing now even though nothing really changed
BTW... telecancel>RAR wavedash might solve some problems I've been reading about the removal of autosnap.
New detonate animation looks really nice with b-reverse side-b (which can consistently force an orbit, if you guys didn't know
)And lightning kick feels amazing now even though nothing really changed
BTW... telecancel>RAR wavedash might solve some problems I've been reading about the removal of autosnap.
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WhiteCrow
Smash Journeyman
Shortened teleports can also consistently force orbits, but you can wave land out of detonate animation. Hard to tell which is safer, especially with telepivots.New detonate animation looks really nice with b-reverse side-b (which can consistently force an orbit, if you guys didn't know
telecancel>RAR wavedash might solve some problems I've been reading about the removal of autosnap.
You can always edge cancel teleport>Farore's Wind ledge grab if you're looking for a telesnap alternative. It's not as fast but it has a second hitbox during the ledge grab that telesnapping never had. Or Karmic drop.
BlackMamba
Smash Apprentice
Interesting, I'll try that
Y'know I just realized this thread was made on the same day as my SSB4 Zelda data thread!
But real subject hows everyone liking/sdisliking 3.6? I still haven't yet witnessed these new LK animations, but I can only imagine they're hot stuff.
But real subject hows everyone liking/sdisliking 3.6? I still haven't yet witnessed these new LK animations, but I can only imagine they're hot stuff.
WhiteCrow
Smash Journeyman
I'm enjoying the new teleport, for the most part. Telesnapping is so much less viable now so I've been working on edge cancelled teleports. Telepivots are a really nice addition, and they finally make 3.5's teleport feel better than 3.0's. Telepvot ledge cancel feels so smooth. The new Din is also nice since I don't clip the edge as much. We don't have to practice in debug mode anymore because of the new glow too.Y'know I just realized this thread was made on the same day as my SSB4 Zelda data thread!
But real subject hows everyone liking/sdisliking 3.6? I still haven't yet witnessed these new LK animations, but I can only imagine they're hot stuff.
FreeGamer
Smash Ace
Reversing her Telecancel exit is huge. It's tied with Bowser's Fire Breath for being my favorite buff of this patch. :D
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Vitriform
Smash Apprentice
I just want the Diamond Dive back.I looooove 3.6 Zelda. Buffed upair, viable farore's. Sexy feel-good kick animations. I'm not really sure what else I could ask for
Oh except for Nayrus always sending forward again
HalcyonDays
Smash Apprentice
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- Nov 3, 2014
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Just wanted to ask this in a place where the most people would see it, but does anyone know if the visual GFX mod toggle for Farore's Wind from 3.5 is compatible with 3.6 Beta?
This one: https://gfycat.com/ImpassionedWavyEnglishsetter
Download link: http://smashboards.com/threads/trif...the-tetraforce-is.395380/page-2#post-18941311
I'm thinking that it could really help tremendously with getting the timing down for proper telecancels. Especially since they're needed a lot more than in 3.5
This one: https://gfycat.com/ImpassionedWavyEnglishsetter
Download link: http://smashboards.com/threads/trif...the-tetraforce-is.395380/page-2#post-18941311
I'm thinking that it could really help tremendously with getting the timing down for proper telecancels. Especially since they're needed a lot more than in 3.5
otheusrex
Smash Journeyman
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HalcyonDays
Smash Apprentice
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Thank you very much, this'll come in real handy!
Although I do wish that PMDT would consider including it in the official release, this GFX mod is just all sorts of awesome.
4tlas
Smash Lord
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Meh, I can tell where a Zelda is teleporting because I know the move so well. And the CAMERA FOLLOW IT FML WHO NEEDS SMOKE
HalcyonDays
Smash Apprentice
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Well, so long as it can still be toggled, I wouldn't call it a nerf.
There are pros and cons to being able to see your teleport path that you wouldn't have otherwise, and having the option of whether you want to or not mid-battle can only help.
For example, let's say you want to tele-snipe the ledge for a quick edgehog, you don't necessarily need the invisibility, do you? The opponent is presumably trying to recover, so the predictability of being seen doesn't really matter as much. The fact that you can even see where you're going only helps make sure you don't SD in attempting to edgehog.
Of course, you'd have to keep track of whether the GFX is on or not.
You think it might be possible to do that, like have a visual effect of whether or not the GFX wind toggle is on? A GFX signal for a GFX mod so to speak, lol.
otheusrex
Smash Journeyman
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I suppose so. As in, of course it's possible, but I'm not sure off hand what would look appropriate. This kind of seems like having a a second sign to warn that there's a wetfloor sign
HalcyonDays
Smash Apprentice
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- Nov 3, 2014
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Yeah, it's a bit superfluous thinking about it, but I can imagine it being easy to forget if the toggle is on or off in the middle of some intense match.
I was just thinking though, your GFX mod is rather different from P:M's default Zelda, right? Different colors, sparkle effects, etc. All very beautiful and shiny.
Maybe it's possible to switch between your GFX and vanilla P:M's using the same toggle? It could be a method for knowing when the toggle is on/off, assuming it's possible to do.
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otheusrex
Smash Journeyman
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HalcyonDays
Smash Apprentice
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Lol, that's totally fine. You've done more than enough as it is already, your work is awesome man.
Not to mention, unless PMDT decides to officially implement this, which I hope they do ('cuz it really is a neat idea IMO), it's best not to spend too much effort on something that is assumably not "tourney legal."
Actually, how do you think TO's might react to something like this? Think they'd be okay with this current GFX toggle? It's not like it grants the Zelda player any huge advantage or anything.
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otheusrex
Smash Journeyman
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I mean it's probably fine... I think perhaps the ability to turn the extra gfx on teleport traveling in the middle of the startup actually makes it a little less tounament legal. I want to have it with uptaunt as before, but with the added bonus of being able to start with the gfx on by holding taunt during the entry animation, but apparently there are some difficulties with that
HalcyonDays
Smash Apprentice
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Hey otheusrex, I know this is a super-old conversation, but I noticed Zelda has some new properties on her teleport's re-appearance attack frames. Would this affect your Farore's GFX toggle in any way, competitively? Anyways, sorry to bother you out of nowhere like this.
Yes, there would need to be a new .pac made for 3.6 full with the GFX. I've requested it here.
The only change (copied from the changelog) is "Reappearance hitbox moved from frame 1 to frame 2 on both ground and air, it is also now unclankable and uses Slash Element instead of Fire."
drsusredfish
Smash Ace
slightly nerfed teleport. Now gets beat out if the opponent guesses where you are an already has a hit box there. Guess thats ok though give a reward instead of a trade for a good read.
I wish they had changed the detonation order of a moving din though. instead of stop moving->hitbox disappear->explode. It should be hitbox disappear->stop moving->explode. so it's easier to not accidentally hit the moving hit box and waste time trying to detonate.
But i guess i sound like a broken record saying that again.
I wish they had changed the detonation order of a moving din though. instead of stop moving->hitbox disappear->explode. It should be hitbox disappear->stop moving->explode. so it's easier to not accidentally hit the moving hit box and waste time trying to detonate.
But i guess i sound like a broken record saying that again.
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drsusredfish
Smash Ace
If they are going to make dins so difficult and timely to use then it should at least work how the user intends it to work. The current dins too often doesn't work as intended because of the order of things.
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WhiteCrow
Smash Journeyman
I don't have any troubles controlling 3.5 Din's Fire, though it is different than 3.02. What exactly is the order of things?
drsusredfish
Smash Ace
Have you ever tried to explode a returning dins fire on an opponent but the moving hit box hits first and you don't get the explosion?
The reason why that happens is because when you press side b to detonate, the din keeps on moving for about 11 frames after you press detonate and the moving hitbox is still active. frame 12 and 13 the hit box disappears frame 14 through 19 the explosion hit box is active. The moving hit box can still hit the opponent even though you are in the detonate animation. So it's often a wasted attempt especially with the smallest din since its so fast. It can go about 1/5 of final destination before the 11 frames are finished.
Zeldas Fair sweet spot size is the margin for a dins returning hot box hit and an explosion hit at most dins sizes. hiting the explosion is like trying to hit a lighting kick from across the screen.
Most people think the explosion is so big, and it is, but since the returning hit box can negate your explosion you are reallly trying to hit with the edge of the din which is easy to miss if you want the explosion hit. The biggest din doesn't really get any of these gripes because its so slow and the margin is much bigger
This would not be a problem if the returning hit box was much smaller than the exploding hit box but that would weaken the area of threat she has with the returning din so we don't want that.
What we should want is to be able to hit with any part of the exploding din and not just the edge.
Trying to give a visual. hopefully this ascii stuff shows up right.
||||||||
||-------||
||_____||
||||||||
imagine the inner square is the moving din hitbox. The outer square is the explosion hitbox. To hit the explosion you don't have explosions hit box size. You have the explosions hit box size minus the returning hitbox size since hiting the returning hit box negates the explosion.
TlDR:
The order the game currently uses is
wait 11 frames -> stop moving->hitbox disappear->explode.
It should be
frame 1 hitbox disappear->wait 11 frames ->stop moving->explode.
Doing it like this makes it so its impossible to hit the returning hit box if you want the explosion beacuse the returning hit box will be gone for 11 frames while its moving. This makes it so the opponent can get hit in the center of the explosion and not just the edge.
They could tweak the timing here and there but the order i suggested is important. realistically they are probably against giveing her something frame one maybe 2 to 4 frames for the hitbox to disappear would be good.
The reason why that happens is because when you press side b to detonate, the din keeps on moving for about 11 frames after you press detonate and the moving hitbox is still active. frame 12 and 13 the hit box disappears frame 14 through 19 the explosion hit box is active. The moving hit box can still hit the opponent even though you are in the detonate animation. So it's often a wasted attempt especially with the smallest din since its so fast. It can go about 1/5 of final destination before the 11 frames are finished.
Zeldas Fair sweet spot size is the margin for a dins returning hot box hit and an explosion hit at most dins sizes. hiting the explosion is like trying to hit a lighting kick from across the screen.
Most people think the explosion is so big, and it is, but since the returning hit box can negate your explosion you are reallly trying to hit with the edge of the din which is easy to miss if you want the explosion hit. The biggest din doesn't really get any of these gripes because its so slow and the margin is much bigger
This would not be a problem if the returning hit box was much smaller than the exploding hit box but that would weaken the area of threat she has with the returning din so we don't want that.
What we should want is to be able to hit with any part of the exploding din and not just the edge.
Trying to give a visual. hopefully this ascii stuff shows up right.
||||||||
||-------||
||_____||
||||||||
imagine the inner square is the moving din hitbox. The outer square is the explosion hitbox. To hit the explosion you don't have explosions hit box size. You have the explosions hit box size minus the returning hitbox size since hiting the returning hit box negates the explosion.
TlDR:
The order the game currently uses is
wait 11 frames -> stop moving->hitbox disappear->explode.
It should be
frame 1 hitbox disappear->wait 11 frames ->stop moving->explode.
Doing it like this makes it so its impossible to hit the returning hit box if you want the explosion beacuse the returning hit box will be gone for 11 frames while its moving. This makes it so the opponent can get hit in the center of the explosion and not just the edge.
They could tweak the timing here and there but the order i suggested is important. realistically they are probably against giveing her something frame one maybe 2 to 4 frames for the hitbox to disappear would be good.
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4tlas
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2014
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- 1,298
Great post, but I would like to point out that there is a great use for exploding the tiny wisp: it delays the timing of its arrival to the opponent. Though you don't get to hit them with the explosion, you DO get to hit them with the wisp and I can often get good punishes off of it. Doesn't take away from anything you said, but there already is a use for exploding smallest dins, it just isn't to hit with the explosion.