Something new and interesting

[The Cape]

With our new abundance of lines we may have the ability to make new characters. As crazy as this sounds I have worked up Four movesets that I think you all may agree on for new characters that we could actually add to the existing roster.

What we will need to make this work:
New CSS for the character select screen
Costumes set to movesets
Ability to make a character only able to access a certain set of costumes
Some custom sound effects
Whole lot of patience and faith

I have four characters that I will list here by the character name and who they replace. It also lists all the changes from the current moveset to make them into their own character.

Doctor Mario
Moveset he superimposes: Mario

Moveset changes:

[B]Smashes:[/B]
F Smash:
No Sweetspot hit
Weak hit buffed in KB and given elec power
Does Sweetspot damage

D smash:
Front and back hit are both strong
Lower Damage

U smash:
Higher base knockback
Lower scaling

[B]Tilts:[/B]
Up tilt:
Hits away in front

D tilt:
Hits behind Doc

F tilt:
More KB

[B]Dash attack:[/B]
Hits up and behind

[B]Aerials:[/B]
Uair:
Less KB

Bair:
Downward angle
Less KB
Less scaling

Dair:
Hits out instead of up

Fair:
Always hits away

Nair:
Reverse sex kick

[B]Specials:[/B]
B:
More damage
Taller trajectory
Move slower

fB:
Turns around, moves up

uB:
Moves slightly slower
More spaced out hitboxes

down B:
Puts flower on opponent, longer charge = more flowertime
No KB

[B]Throws:[/B]
U throw has same KB as Mario D throw

D throw lays on the ground like GW

F throw has increased KB

B throw as less KB and sends at a downward angle

[B]Other effects:[/B]
No walljump
Bit more grav (5%)
Bit more weight (5%)
Deals 5% more damage than Mario

Fixes to Mario to make them more distinguished:
Fair always spikes (three trajectories)

Roy
Moveset he superimposes: Marth

Moveset:

Smashes:
F smash:
Increased KB

D Smash: Increased KB

U smash:
Puts on fire
Multihits

Tilts:
D tilt:
Pops up

F and U:
Unchanged

Aerials:
Nair:
Less KB
Slower

Bair:
More KB
Slower

Fair:
Less KB
Slower

Dair:
Less KB
Slower

Uair:
Less KB
Faster

Specials:
B:
Fire
More KB and more scaling
Longer Charge up

fB:
Slower
More KB
Third hit up spikes
Third hit down burns and hits multi times
Fourth hit burns

down B:
1.5x damage and KB

up and B:
Slower
More range of motion
multiple hits
fire

throws:
U throw:
Up and behind

F throw:
Less KB

B throw:
Less KB

D throw:
More KB (killing throw)
Fire

overalls:
Heavier
Faster faller
More damage output
More landing lag
Slightly slower
More ALR
Sweetspot switch

Zero
Moveset he superimposes: Ike

Hopefully we can find a texture too. No long hair, just the helmet.

Smashes:
F smash:
Faster
Less damage
less KB

D smash:
Faster
less damage
less KB

U smash:
faster
less damage
less kb

Tilts:
U tilt:
Faster
less KB
less damage

D tilt:
faster
hits up
less damage
less KB

F tilt:
Faster
less damage
less kb

Aerials:
nair:
Alot faster
alot less KB

Fair:
faster
less kb

bair:
slower
more kb

dair:
always spikes
weaker kb
faster

uair:
weaker kb
less damage
faster

Throws:
D throw:
less KB scaling
less KB base

F throw:
Hits upward angle

B throw:
hits downward angle

U throw:
more KB base
lower KB scale

Specials:
B:
no charge
does 12 damage
medium knockback
hits down (meteor)

forward B:
Hits away
charges faster
lower KB

up and B:
moves faster
less kb on spike hit

down and B:
Does 8% damage
bigger window to counter
stuns
no KB

overall changes:
Floatier
much faster alr
faster
higher jumps

MegamanX
Moveset he superimposes: Samus

Lost the texture

Smashes:
F smash:
More KB

D smash:
hits inwards

U smash:
more damage
less KB

Tilts:
F tilt:
Unchanged

U tilt:
Faster
less damage

D tilt:
hits away (think Snake F smash)

Dash attack:
Hits the way Megaman is facing

Aerials:
Nair:
Lots more KB

Dair:
hits up

Fair:
more damage
less KB

Bair:
Less KB
More damage

uair:
Less KB
more damage

Specials:
Up and B:
Moves faster
Hits once

B:
Shoots faster
No charge

forward B:
No KB
Elec hit
Good hitstun
Smash missiles have more stun and damage than homing

down and B:
come out faster
do less damage
elec hit
stun

Throws:
D throw:
Throws down and behind

U throw:
Lots more KB

F throw:
Lots more KB

B throw:
Lots less KB
Sends at downward angle

Overall changes:
Higher grav
Fast faller
Higher full jump
lower SH
runs faster
lighter weight
more ALR (200%)?

Changes to Samus:
Faster F smash

Sigma

Character he superimposes: Ganon

Moveset:

F smash:
Hits up
Electric type

U smash:
Electric type
Faster
Less KB

D smash:
Faster
Electric type

Tilts:
U tilt:
Much faster
Less damage
Electric on hit

F tilt:
Electric
Hits down and away
Faster
Less KB

D tilt:
Faster
Less Kb

Dash Attack:
Hits forward
Electric

Aerials:
Nair:
Faster
Less KB

Fair:
Electric
Less KB
Faster

Uair:
Faster
Less KB

Bair:
Electric
Hits down and away
Less KB

Dair:
Dark

Specials
B:
Alot Faster
Stuns
Lots less damage

dB:
Dark
come out faster, less winddown

forward B
no change

up and B:
more KB

throws:
U throw:
Less KB

D throw:
Electric
Lots more KB

Back throw:
Down and away
Less KB

F throw
Down and away
electric

Overall changes:
Less ALR
Floatier

So what do you guys think of my crazy idea?

Edit:
Character specific size mod for Roy, MMX, and Zero?

Shrink them down a bit to fit their actual heights a bit better.

Edit 2:
Make Mario's Hat invisible except the emblem, problem solved.

Also, get rid of the Samus shoulder pads.

 

[goodoldganon]

There is a Link texture hack for both the Megaman characters. The Zero one looks good. Either way it sounds like a fun side project after all is said and done.

 

[The Cape]

I chose Ike for the moveset. I think it definetly could be done.

We would need to shrink some chars heights though for these alternate personas.

 

[Team Giza]

And exactly how will we work this in teams?

 

[Ulevo]

This is definitely an interesting train of thought, but... Exactly why would we want to be introducing new characters?

 

[shanus]

I don't think this is a good change to add to Brawl+ tbh. People already call this Brawl fanfiction, I think this does not support the goals of the project.

Itd be a fun side–endeavor, but not something we should actively pursue.

 

[The Cape]

Mostly want to see if we can do it.

Ulevo and Giza, this is what I was thinking.

Add four costumes to each character for the use by the new clone character
Take these four costumes and link them to the new moveset.
Make them accessible like Wario's colors as he has six teams options.

This would allow up to have more playable chars and more cool stuff. Nice side project, maybe not tourney legal.

 

[Ulevo]

I wouldn't want to take it into consideration now, as we have other more important priorities, and I wouldn't want it to be a part of the code set for the gold release of Brawl Plus. That said, it's a side project we can work on in the future when everything is finalized.

 

[Revven]

Yeah I agree with Ulevo, it should wait, it's not something we should be concerned with right now. Every character should be worked on and made sure they work well before adding any new characters, as well as finalizing the set.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I definitely want to look into this....later. You know, after we already have an official standard with balanced characters.

After that, I think this would actually be a worthwhile endeavor while we wait for evidence of "broken" tactics to gather (if they still exist). After that most of our changes would only be due to tournament data suggesting it needs to be changed correct? Well...it seems like we really wouldn't be doing anything for a while.

I really like the idea of adding new characters, if only to see the possibilities you can achieve with just tweaking movesets in different ways. Heck, I think if people really like how the character functions, we should add them into the official set, and see how thew work in tournaments! Though...if there's legal issues then I guess this is out of the question (I don't think there will be though, since we're just modifying games we've already purchased, and obviously the hacks wouldn't work on public wi-fi, since the other people don't have the codes).

 

[CT Chia]

yea this is interesting, though hold off until later as everyone said. wait until brawl+ is done. and by done, i mean we have all completely agreed on a final codeset, character tweaks, etc. then, like Brawl should do but wont, release downloadable updates (not literally like that i guess lol) where we add like 2 characters to the roster each year. also have to choose much better characters/textures than what u chose there. the only selection i liked was dr mario, ones like X were just awful lol. when im bored at work il think of stuff.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Yeah...we'll need better textures. Roy shouldn't be too hard, since it's just changing facial features and the texture of the sword. Then just remove the part of the cape that's covering the breastplate and you'll have a decent looking Roy. That or you could base his texture more off of Ike, while still giving him Marth's moveset for tweaks.

Zero...that'll be interesting, as will X.

 

[CT Chia]

we also dont have to make all the forgotten melee characters. i think if we can pull off new characters that show off the most creativity and skill. though lol i cant get over how bad that X texture is lololololol

when we do this we need to remember to make:

and this guy is awesome lol

 

[kupo15]

This is an awesome idea. I don't see why we can't do this during that waiting period and actually implement them in the roster if we do a good job. Too bad we can't make sonic glide (unless another code is made?) because then we can make knuckles.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Knuckles with Sonic's moveset would just be weird.

 

[shanus]

This is an awesome idea. I don't see why we can't do this during that waiting period and actually implement them in the roster if we do a good job. Too bad we can't make sonic glide (unless another code is made?) because then we can make knuckles.

We could use Metaknight or Pit as a base. If we did char specific dash speeds, etc. Do a move swap with sonic onto Pit, then texture hack it, etcetc.

 

[CT Chia]

uh.... how bout knuckles without dreadlocks would be weird -_-

believe me, im all for making knuckles in this game, and i would suggest him before ANY other character, but no one looks remotely like him, unless we can tap into that model of him used in green hill zone. if we could use that model, we could add knuckles, and even WALUIGI from the assist trophy. zomg it would be amazing to add those 2

 

[Dark Sonic]

We might be able to add Lyn as a character by going off the assist trophy model (it's a fairly detailed assist trophy), and giving some combination of TL's and Marth's movesets.

 

[kupo15]

So how exactly would we be able to clone characters and add them to the roster while keeping the old ones? I assume a code would have to be made?

 

[leafgreen386]

I don't think any of us have any idea just how complicated some of these suggestions would be. Especially those that turn assist trophies into playable characters. I mean, I support this idea... to be done far into the future, of course, after brawl+ has already been made final. It would be like additional expansion packs every so often that would get released. Nothing before we go gold, though. But just getting this stuff to work would probably take some insane coding. Even as I type this there has still yet to be a person that has figured out how to add costumes to characters.

Now, that's not saying that it won't someday be possible. I think that the very fact that phantom wing's dynamic SD loader exists should be testament to that. If you were to make it require a button activator when you're selecting the character (say... hold shield when you place your token on the character portrait) that activated both the moveset changes and the texture load you could effectively add new textures to the game and make them whole new characters while you're at it. It wouldn't be as clean as adding whole new portraits, but frick... that would be an absolutely ridiculous code if it was even possible.

While we're throwing out ideas for characters we need to do... why no love for the Golden Sun series? Isaac or Felix would be a great addition for something like this. Also, from SMRPG, Geno is of course always a fan favorite. I'd see either Isaac or Felix working pretty well off of a weakened Ike that we make faster. Dunno who would be the base of a Geno, though.

 

[CT Chia]

theres plenty of texture hacks for toon link to make him geno, but idk, its a lil odd looking

 

[MuBa]

I say if we are able to actually make a whole new character model, we should definitely make Geno, seeing as how that would be very much awesome!


But yes, I do agree that this project could wait a while.

 

[leafgreen386]

Well cape, you managed to get me to spend the time to figure out what could be done for an Isaac set, now. lol

I basically made him a combination of a faster weaker ike for his aerials (his specials were also taken mostly from ike, although I wouldn't call them weaker), while on the ground he takes more from marth, except with a little twist. He has a "reverse tip" that causes the moves based on marth to send the foe toward you if you tip them. It's basically supposed to be a fast combo oriented character without many good killing options besides spiking or landing the last hit of upB, which can be easily SDI'd out of. I noted what each of his specials were inspired by, as well, so you can see they're not just random changes for the sake of changing stuff.

Note: All 'A' moves are assumed to have reduced damage from their original sources, since otherwise he would be able to rack up damage insanely quickly.

> Specials
>

uB - ike uB (Megiddo)
All fire hits with reduced damage, landing hitbox is explosion with higher damage that kills around 110%

nB - ike nB (Ragnarok)
Spikes, no SA frames

fB - ike fB (Flint)
Sends straight up, 14% uncharged and 23% charged, high base but low scaling (doesn't kill until 150% uncharged or 120% charged and doesn't combo); I was actually thinking about making this one a spike, but that would make it possible to combo off of, so I decided against it

dB - DK dB (Grand Gaia)
Zelda jab animation, slightly higher kb


> Aerials
>

fair - ike fair
less kb

bair - ike bair
Sped up and heavily reduced kb, launches at low angle

dair - ike dair

uair - ike uair
Sped up, weaker

nair - ike nair
Sped up


> Smashes
>

fsmash - link fsmash (inspired by Echo)
Second hit much faster to come out, first hit is mostly base so they both connect

usmash - marth usmash
Tip spikes, other hits launch up and away (45 degree angle), reduced lag

dsmash - marth dsmash
Fast combo move, tip sends up and towards, hilt sends straight up

> Tilts
>

ftilt - marth ftilt
Tip sends up and towards

utilt - marth utilt
Tip sends straight up

dtilt - marth dtilt
Tip sends up and toward, hilt sends straight up

> Grabs
>

standing/dash/pivot grab and grab attack animations - ike grab animations

fthrow - ness fthrow

bthrow - ness bthrow
May require kb reduction if this lets him kill too easily; Ness's throws are used mostly for flavor

uthrow - link or ike uthrow
Only reason I say link here is because not enough swordsmen actually use their swords in their throws lol

dthrow - ike dthrow


> Other
>

jab - ike jab
Less growth on last hit

dash attack - marth dash attack
Tip sends up and toward

ledge animations - ike ledge animations

running speed - about as fast as marth

fall speed and weight - ike

Possibly a greater reduction in aerial lag than the standard

---

Like I said, super combo-y character that does very little actual damage per hit (with the exception being his specials) and has trouble killing outside of gimps or spikes. Not really sure if everything I listed is possible (namely the downB edit), and some of these moves may not move swap well, but yeah...

 

[goodoldganon]

ROY​

So Cape and I did a rough outline of what we thought would make a really fun first clone character for Brawl+. Numbers can always be worked out, but we'd like the original ideas to be preserved. Basically, though rough notes, we were pretty proud of our Roy.

Sweetspots (SS) is everything that isn’t a tipper at the moment. Weak hits (WH) are tippers.

Tilts and Jabs

A jab: Slower with more KB. In between hits is slower.

Dash attack: Strong hitting 160 degree hit. Good base but low growth. We were unsure if there is a tip here.

D-tilt: Hits up. leads into f-smash at low percents, at mid percents it leads into a f-air and at high into a U-air. SS D tilt hits up 90 degrees ,WH hits in like 135

F-tilt: Weak hit: hits up at like 70 or 110
Sweetspot: hits out. Mildly strong. 20 angle.

U-tilt: SS 110, good KB
WH 270. Weakhits set up tech chases once the opponent reaches about 40-50%.

Smashes​

F-smash: Strong hit, 45, bit faster, lots of KO power. Has more winddown
WH: 290 degrees meteors. Weak KB

D-smash: Weak Hits hit inwards toward Roy. DOES NOT work like Ganon’s or Tink’s d-smash. He should not connect with both hits. Weak KB. 110 and 70
Sweetspots: First hit hits inward but the second hit sends them outward.
D-smash has less windown then Marth’s.

U-smash: Weak hits spike. Sweetspots hit straight up. Tons of fire!!! More windown then Marth’s.

Aerials (All aerials have 125% ALR of Marth’s normal ALR. N-air stays at 50% though)​

N-air: less base and KBG. A solid combo move and aerial approach. There are no sweetspots or weakhits. It’s all homogenized. 110% speed of Marth’s.

F-air: Sweetspots. Moderate to low KB. Hits at about 30. Weakhits drag people behind Roy. Around 200 angle. Should be used stage spike people. 85% speed of Marth’s

D-air: Weakhits hit people vertically. Around 80 or 90 degrees. Sweetspots knockpeople down. 270 degrees. Much weaker then Marth’s tipped D-air. 85% speed of Marth’s.

U-air: A weak aerial meant to be SHFFL’d and combo’d into again and again, like Melee Roy. Like n-air there are no sweetspots or weakhits. 105% speed of Marth’s.

B-air: Hilt hits away strong. 30 degrees. Tip is a weak spike. Very very weak growth on the tip. 90% speed of Marth’s.

Specials:​

B:
Fire
More KB and more scaling
Longer Charge up
Homogenized

fB:
Slower (First hit strikes 0.75x Marth's first swing)
More KB
Third hit up spikes
Third hit down burns and hits multi times
Fourth hit burns

down B:
1.5x damage and KB

up and B:
Slower
More range of motion (not sure if this is possible)
Fire
First hit is weak, ending strike is strong. Sends opponents vertical. Is a decent aerial finisher for people at the top of the screen.

General information:
-85% as fast as Marth
-Heavier then Marth
-Considered one of the faster fallers. Between Falco and Ike.
-Better KO potential then Marth
-More ALR than most characters


Roy is a character that uses his sword to control the placement of the opponent to Roy's advantage. Roy's slower speed may seem like a disadvantage, but his control of his opponent by using different points on his sword come as an almost unmatched talent to any other character in the game. Though Roy will do the brunt of his killing with the sweetspotted hilt, his tip of the blade is far from useless now. His tipper will send people at varying angles which makes DIing against Roy very tough.Roy also is a master of the element of fire. Roy is a fun character for anyone that loves precise control of the match as well as precise spacing of their attacks.

Comments? Questions? Now we gotta get all the Marth hitbox data...

 

[Team Giza]

Now we gotta get all the Marth hitbox data...

... I'll... get on it soon

 

[Deleted member]

if we're gonna start needing a lot of hitbox data (which is likely) i'll port over the hitbox gathering code and help with the data collecting when needed

 

[Revven]

Let's not add these characters to the nightly builds, only for WBR builds when we're done with the current characters. This way, the WBR can test the characters AFTER we're done with the main characters that matter. Also, what's the exact plan? Add these characters after Gold1 or RIGHT on Gold1? Because I feel that Gold1 should be without the new characters so that way people can focus on the current ones and give us any straight feedback on them that we may need to fix in Gold2 (whenever that may be). This would also, in turn, give us more time to flesh out the characters for Gold2.

Sound about right?

 

[Almas]

While additional characters only exist as alternate costumes, we should not even consider making them official. I will construct a code structure that allows characters to be added as a code (which can then be added to the .gct), along with the appropriate textures. That way people can add and share characters if they want to.

Maybe when we are able to give clones their own slots should they be considered for adding "officially".

 

[Revven]

While additional characters only exist as alternate costumes, we should not even consider making them official. I will construct a code structure that allows characters to be added as a code (which can then be added to the .gct), along with the appropriate textures. That way people can add and share characters if they want to.

Maybe when we are able to give clones their own slots should they be considered for adding "officially".

Sounds good to me!

 

[The Cape]

Make em downloadable content for players.

 

[CT Chia]

yea i wouldnt work on this until we balanced the original characters in the game first -_-

 

[goodoldganon]

yea i wouldnt work on this until we balanced the original characters in the game first -_-

It took like 20 minutes. I wouldn't mind have a small group of 1 or 2 guys working on Roy as we balance the other 39, but really how much more balancing needs to take place?

 

[kupo15]

It took like 20 minutes. I wouldn't mind have a small group of 1 or 2 guys working on Roy as we balance the other 39, but really how much more balancing needs to take place?

We still have quite a few game mechanics that still need to be put in place and then balancing for that. What I mean is this. Balancing characters does not mean excluding characters from global game mechanics. Balancing means adding the game mechanics, then doing different tweaks if need be. Example would be to add more shield drop lag but allow Yoshi to jump out of his shield...not exempt him from the mechanic because exempting characters from global game mechanics makes no sense.

 

[Deleted member]

no balancing oes NOT mean adding game mechanics. it means adjusting EXSISTING game mechanics and adding new ones if that is NEEDED.

furthermore the "but" is terribily placed since shield drop lag and yoshi jumping out of shield are two different things, that do not neccesarily compensate the the same thing.

 

[kupo15]

no balancing oes NOT mean adding game mechanics. it means adjusting EXSISTING game mechanics and adding new ones if that is NEEDED.
.

Your right. Game mechanics that were present in both previous games that are not found in brawl don't fix the game at all...the frame speed code does

You can't completely balance a game until all the mechanics are in place first >_>

 

[Deleted member]

that was the NEEDED part in my text. you sounds like you wanna add EVEN MORE mechanics, while we can easily do it with waht we have.

what you must realise is that a new code is not directly a new mechanic. the frame speed changes the speeds ALRREADY in the game.

 

[kupo15]

that was the NEEDED part in my text. you sounds like you wanna add EVEN MORE mechanics, while we can easily do it with waht we have.

what you must realise is that a new code is not directly a new mechanic. the frame speed changes the speeds ALRREADY in the game.

So then why can't we have longer shield drop and side step lag? And we can make meteor canceling better with what we have? Or ledge teching?

 

[Deleted member]

yes those are possible, but those are not new mechanics.

from your post I assumed you wanted real new mechanics, like crouch canceling or even charge canceling

 

[kupo15]

yes those are possible, but those are not new mechanics.

I can increase the animation, but I can cancel it early so it does nothing

from your post I assumed you wanted real new mechanics, like crouch canceling or even charge canceling

You shouldn't assume which new mechanics I want like I don't want charge canceling and I want some form of Crouch canceling.

We can't balance the characters perfectly until the game's rules and mechanics are in place. This includes mechanics that we have yet to add as well as existing mechanics that are not where they should be

 

[Alopex]

Mega Man needs to go on Kirby. He needs to take his enemy's ability, or else he just isn't Mega Man.