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Some Yoshi Information

Discussion in 'Yoshi' started by PerhapsMan, Apr 3, 2014.

  1. Kibbles_n_Bits

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    Thanks for the speedy reply! I'll try to find other characters that that happens to, but I have to say it is surprisingly helpful.
     
  2. DD151

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    Hey PerhapsMan, I have a question that you have the tools to answer.

    I've been thinking about using the running up-B edgehog to cover space animal side-B to the edge and slightly above the edge to the stage. The idea is that Yoshi will edgehog side-B to the edge and intercept slightly higher side-Bs with the Egg Toss. If Yoshi were to leave no gaps in his coverage (i.e., the space animal can't side-B between Yoshi and the egg without being hit, so Yoshi basically has to lob the egg very gently), what's the amount of vertical space that he can cover this way and what does the timing look like?
     
    #162 DD151, Apr 19, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2015
  3. DD151

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    Apologies for the double post, but here's an unrelated piece of information.

    Yoshi's U-throw sends opponents into tumble starting at 30% if unstale. This figure appears to be independent of knockback variation based on weight, i.e., all characters from Bowser to Pichu tumble from U-throw at 30% and do not tumble from U-throw at 29% (except for Nana, I have no idea when U-throw will send her into tumble). This is probably useful information to keep in mind if you ever consider using U-throw to toss an opponent onto a platform for a tech chase.
     
  4. Festive

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    Hey guys I was curious if there was anything specific (framewise or not) I should know about in going nearly straight down fast fall after a waveland on a platform? I've tried to do it a bunch of times and end up either getting stuck on the top platforms edge for some reason, or I fall too far to the left or right (depending on which side I'm wavelanding) and end up getting stuck on the bottom platforms. Any help in general with improving and increasing wavelanding speed and accuracy would be great as well.

    ( https://youtu.be/UufV85QoCVE?t=36s Here's part of the video where he wavelands and goes nearly straight down so he can waveland the next platform)
     
  5. DD151

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    I'm pretty sure that you just need to fast-fall the first frame that you're airborne (in Fall). The longer you wait to fast-fall, the more horizontal distance you will travel, because Yoshi falls pretty slowly at first if he runs or slides off flat ground.

    I looked into my previous question a little bit and discovered that holding B for 1 or 2 frames and tilting the control stick full forward lets Yoshi cover the lowest possible Fox Illusion onto the stage when Yoshi does the up-B edgehog. Holding B for 3 frames results in the egg being thrown too high to cover low Fox Illusions onto the stage.

    Also, when Yoshi does the reverse double jump edge grab, fast-falling on frame 2 will also let him double jump on frames 4-7 to grab the edge. I got burned in friendlies a couple of times doing the edgehog too slowly, so I think I'll try incorporating the fast-fall to speed it up slightly.
     
  6. PerhapsMan

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    If you're getting stuck, it's because you're not holding the stick forward when wavelanding forward off a platform. If you're falling too far to the left or right, you're waiting too long to start the waveland.

    If you want to leave no gap that Fox or Falco can fit in between the ledge and the egg, this is what the timing looks like. A reference point of one roll's length from the ledge is used here:

    1 Dash
    14 Dash becomes Run
    17 Jumpsquat
    18 Egg Toss
    19 No longer holding B

    [​IMG]

    In the GIFs I made, Yoshi is holding backward after starting the Egg Toss, but I went and checked after reading your latest post, and it does not change any of my results when Yoshi holds forward.

    Neither Fox nor Falco can get the ledge or land onstage without going far above the egg.

    [​IMG]

    If you start the Egg Toss one frame earlier, Fox and Falco can both get under the Egg while still landing onstage. Fox is starting his Side B from the exact same height in both of these examples.

    [​IMG]

    Holding forward does not seem to change the height that you can cover with these timings, but it does place the Egg far enough out that you can prevent Fox and Falco from SDIing onstage (though this isn't much of a concern anyway, unless they are below tumble %).

    This is the vertical coverage that the frame 17 timing gives.

    [​IMG]


    As far as I am aware, you can't fastfall until the next frame. My frame count starts at 1 even though the frame timer in the debug menu starts at 0 for the fall animation. Did you start at 0 or am I wrong in saying that you can't fastfall until frame 3?

    Edit: Also, I have not forgotten about your other requests. I'll most likely look at them this week since I am finally done with exams.
     
    #166 PerhapsMan, Apr 22, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2015
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  7. DD151

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    What I did was:
    1 [Fall 0], input down
    2 [Fast-fall?]
    3 input back + Y
    4 double jump backwards

    And then Yoshi grabs the edge some number of frames later that I don't remember. So either Yoshi is fast-falling on frame 2 or the down input on frame 1 causes him to fast-fall on frame 3.

    EDIT: I figured out that input down on frame 1 and holding down on frame 2 causes Yoshi to fast-fall on frame 3 whereas input down on frame 1 and releasing on frame 2 does not cause Yoshi to fast-fall on frame 3.



    So if Yoshi holds full forward, I know that a max strength Egg Toss doesn't travel as high vertically compared to holding neutral or full backward. Does this difference also manifest for very weak Egg Tosses?

    Falco's model, to my recollection, is slightly taller than Fox's. Does this make no difference?

    Can Yoshi Egg Toss any later than frame 18 and still grab the edge? I did quick testing and I think he can delay the toss by at least 1 frame and still grab the edge.
     
    #167 DD151, Apr 22, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2015
  8. PerhapsMan

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    When I input the fastfall on frame 1, I don't hear the fastfall sound until frame 3. I think the down input on frame 1 causes a frame 3 fastfall, provided you hold down until then.

    It does, but the difference I observed is probably smaller than a full strength toss. When I tested for holding forward with a weak toss, it did not make a difference in the timing you could use to cover spacies Side B onstage.

    It didn't for Illusion/Phantasm. Falco was able to slip under the same egg height that Fox did, and got hit by the same egg height that Fox did.

    Yep. Starting with a dash on frame 1 from a roll's length away from the ledge, the following timings will result in grabbing the ledge (in order of highest egg placement to lowest egg placement):

    1 Dash
    13 Jumpsquat
    14 Egg Toss
    41 [Grab Ledge]

    1 Dash
    14 Jumpsquat
    15 Egg Toss
    37 [Grab Ledge]

    1 Dash
    14 Run
    15 Egg Toss
    35 [Grab Ledge]

    1 Dash
    14 Run
    15 Jumpsquat
    16 Egg Toss
    35 [Grab Ledge]

    1 Dash
    14 Run
    16 Egg Toss
    34 [Grab Ledge]

    1 Dash
    14 Run
    16 Jumpsquat
    17 Egg Toss
    35 [Grab Ledge]

    1 Dash
    14 Run
    17 Egg Toss
    35 [Grab Ledge]

    1 Dash
    14 Run
    17 Jumpsquat
    18 Egg Toss
    36 [Grab Ledge]

    1 Dash
    14 Run
    18 Egg Toss
    36 [Grab Ledge]

    1 Dash
    14 Run
    18 Jumpsquat
    19 Egg Toss
    37 [Grab Ledge]

    1 Dash
    14 Run
    19 Egg Toss
    37 [Grab Ledge]

    1 Dash
    14 Run
    19 Jumpsquat
    20 Egg Toss
    38 [Grab Ledge]
     
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  9. DD151

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    So would a frame 19 or a frame 20 Egg Toss allow for a 2-frame strength toss to work, or would it still necessitate a 1-frame strength toss? Overall, what is your opinion on the applicability of this information?
     
    #169 DD151, Apr 22, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2015
  10. PerhapsMan

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    I didn't originally test for strengths greater than 1 frame. After checking some things quickly, it seems as though holding forward (backward will not work) and a strength of 1-4 frames, with a Jump on frame 18 and the Egg Toss on frame 19, will hit Fox (and presumably Falco as well). I would expect other timings to follow some similar pattern.

    Edit: Overall, I like the idea of covering spacies Side B with Egg Toss edgehog, though usually when I am playing I either Dsmash or go for double jump edgehog if they recover low enough to avoid the Dsmash. I don't think reacting to the egg hitting and following up with ledgehop Nair is viable. Even if you were to react to the sound of the egg exploding rather than the sight of your opponent getting hit (auditory reaction being faster than visual), it would either be difficult or impossible to get a Nair out while they are in range of it. I am not sure what the best option would be after the Egg hits.
     
    #170 PerhapsMan, Apr 22, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2015
  11. DD151

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    I often struggle with edgeguarding space animal side-B because D-smash doesn't cover a lot of vertical range and the timing has to be very tight as well. If you miss, you get hit and potentially Sakurai combo'd. Yoshi doesn't have the neat sort of jab that Marth has that covers a good vertical distance (plus he wouldn't have the follow-ups anyway).

    As far as follow-ups go, depending on where the space animal ends up after the hit, I think Yoshi can continue doing edge canceled eggs or do the haxdash aerial that I talked about before. I don't know, I'll have to experiment. Space animals are easier to edgeguard below the stage, and they lose options the farther away they are from the stage, so ideally the end result is that Yoshi can climb on-stage and wait for a D-smash.
     
    PerhapsMan likes this.
  12. PsyRex

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    What kinds of tools do you guys use to work all of these things out? Is it just like 20xx and a couple controllers or what?
     
  13. PerhapsMan

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    Melee debug menu, which is accessible through 20XX but not only that way. I use a standard 1.02 ISO with action replay codes, since the 20XX pack didn't exist when I started doing this stuff.
     
  14. DD151

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    What do you use to capture the footage and how do you process it to make those rockin' .gifs?
     
  15. PerhapsMan

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    I use Dolphin's screenshot feature to take images of each frame, then make the GIFs out of those images. I currently use a website called imgflip because it does most of the work quickly. Making video files out of the screenshots isn't very difficult, and I'd replace all of the GIFs with GFYs, except for the life of me I can't figure out how to embed GFYs on this website...
     
  16. DD151

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    Oh I missed the .iso part, I thought you were capturing screens with a capture card and then processing them into .gif format, lol.
     
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  17. DD151

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    PerhapsMan just uploaded a video of TAS Yoshi vs. L1 Fox: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPvl_o-YQxc

    There are 2 things that I'm curious about:

    Is the U-tilt chain starting at 0:15 actually applicable vs. fast-fallers in a real match if the opponent DIs (maybe the opponent needs to start in the air instead of on the ground)? Unless the opponent can escape with full behind DI, it seems very difficult to escape this combo because of U-tilt's 100 degree launch angle. It looks like you're using pivot U-tilts; can this be done with DJL U-tilts?

    What's going on from 0:46 to 0:49?
     
  18. PerhapsMan

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    At the right % (quite high), you can do it even with wavedash Utilts. Full behind DI will end the combo of course, but the fact that reverse Utilt is very easy to do and turning during a series of Utilts is not something to which a real opponent can react both make DI mixups very strong. DJL Utilts would be harder to do at the % in the TAS, but around 130+ I think it would work well (this is the range where wavedash Utilt starts working, and Utilt still combos well on fastfallers in this % range).

    I am not sure if there is a name for what happens at 0:46, but it's what you get when you tilt the control stick forward slightly for a few frames, then move back to neutral, and repeat.
     
  19. PerhapsMan

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    @DD151

    Platform Techchasing

    I looked at two methods of covering all tech options on platforms without reading or reacting. These are Double Jump Land > Dsmash and Full Jump Fair > Turnaround Ftilt/Dsmash.

    Because Dream Land has the longest platforms, I chose to use them for the test. Dsmash and Fair > Dsmash, if spaced properly, will cover the entire platform on Dream Land or any other stage.

    DJL > Dsmash on Dream Land platform:
    1 Full Jump
    23 Double Jump
    24 Wait
    25 Dsmash
    30 Hitbox
    45 Second Hitbox

    Window for covering all options with Dsmash: 6 frames

    By timing the Dsmash so that the first hit comes out on frames 20-25 of the opponent's tech option, and spacing it so that Yoshi is in the middle of the platform and facing the opponent, you can cover missed tech, tech in place and techroll away with the first hit, and techroll behind with the second hit.

    In this example, all options are covered:

    [​IMG]

    Frame 64 of the GIF is shown here:

    [​IMG]

    The downside to this, of course is that you usually don't want to Dsmash your opponent to the middle of the stage.


    Full Jump Fair > Dsmash on Dream Land platform:
    1 Full Jump
    18 Fair
    34 Fastfall
    36 Hitbox
    37 Land
    47 Turnaround
    48 Ftilt/Dsmash
    53 Hitbox

    Window for covering all options with Fair > turnaround Dsmash/Ftilt: 3 frames

    By timing the Fair so that its hitbox comes out on frame 21 of your opponent's tech option, and spacing it so that the Fair covers one half of the platform, you can cover missed tech, tech in place and techroll to that side of the platform with the Fair, and then turn around and cover the other techroll with either Dsmash (for the outer side of the platform at higher %) or Ftilt (for either side of the platform at lower %).

    Here is an example of the Fair covering tech in place:

    [​IMG]

    Note that you do not necessarily need to space the Fair in the middle of the platform if the opponent techs in the middle. Covering either half of the platform will also cover the middle.

    Here is an example of the same Fair covering tech in place, while the Ftilt covers techroll behind:

    [​IMG]

    There are some complications when platform techchasing like this. If you are at centre stage and the opponent is sent towards one of the side platforms, and they tech on the inner (or closer) half of the platform, it is difficult to cover all tech options. This is because you must turn around and jump backwards to cover the inner half of the platform with either Fair or the first hit of Dsmash. It is possible to do, but adds an extra technical requirement. Something simpler like Full Jump Nair > Dashgrab or maybe Dsmash would be useful if jumping backwards onto the platform with Fair does not seem reasonable to you.

    To set up these platform techchases, you need to force the opponent to tech on the platform and have enough time to get your hitboxes out on the right frames. I looked at 8 possible setups for these platform techchases. The numbers are for Falco on Dream Land, but the information should be applicable to other characters and other stages as well (with the spacing being easier on other stages). All setups are from the ground, and the frame count starts with the frame on which the opponent is hit, and includes hitlag.

    [​IMG]

    This isn't to say that you can't techchase after Dthrow and Uthrow, just that you won't be able to do the guaranteed option coverage setups from throws (except no DI Dthrow at high %).

    Late edit: Ftilt (80 degree hitbox) | No DI | 48%-107% | 23-69 | 31 | 69%-107% | 83%-107%
    Later edit: From 70-127%, you can combo Ftilt into Fair. This lets you force a tech on the platform past 107%.
     
    #179 PerhapsMan, Apr 26, 2015
    Last edited: May 2, 2015
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  20. DD151

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    U-throw confirmed worst throw in Smash Bros.

    Can B-air possibly factor into the options where F-air > D-smash or DJL > D-smash doesn't work? What about U-air > D-smash?

    Does F-tilt force a tech that can be covered with these options?
     
    #180 DD151, Apr 26, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2015
  21. DD151

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  22. PerhapsMan

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    I'll do more than that! I'll put a link in the OP and make a section that includes the %s in a simpler format. I'll also check all of the set knockback moves.

    Again, thanks for sharing!
     
  23. DD151

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    I was testing some U-throw combos with PerhapsMan and many of them depend slightly on whether the target DIs in front or behind or whether the target has a higher or lower controller port than Yoshi (both cause 1-frame differences). Here are the threshold %s at which hitstun increments by 1 frame on Yoshi's U-throw:

    30% - 32 frames
    42% - 33 frames
    54% - 34 frames
    66% - 35 frames
    77% - 36 frames
    89% - 37 frames
    101% - 38 frames
    113% - 39 frames
    125% - 40 frames
    137% - 41 frames
    149% - 42 frames

    I tested:

    U-throw > U-air vs. Sheik (combos from 113% to ???)
    U-throw > U-air vs. Marth (doesn't combo, may combo with controller port advantage)
    U-throw > U-air vs. Pikachu (doesn't combo, may combo with controller port advantage)
    U-throw > F-smash vs. Fox (combos from 101% to ~125%, requires DI front or back)
    U-throw > D-smash vs. Fox (combos from 30% to ~72%)
    U-throw > F-smash vs. Falco (doesn't combo, may combo with controller port advantage)
    U-throw > D-smash vs. Falco (combos from 42% to ~72%)

    U-throw > strong dash attack may work on Fox and Falco at high %s. U-throw > U-smash in lieu of U-throw > F-smash should work on Fox with no or slight DI.
     
    #183 DD151, Apr 27, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2015
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  24. DD151

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    I went and ground these out yesterday.

    U-throw follow-ups [Fox]

    U-throw > U-tilt (32 frames)
    No DI: 30% to >160%

    Comments: U-tilt leads into guaranteed follow-ups at almost all %s. It cannot cover any DI.

    U-throw > F-tilt (30 frames)
    Slight/full away DI: 6% to >160%

    Comments: F-tilt does not always lead into guaranteed follow-ups. Its different hitboxes have different launch angles. It cannot cover no DI. Note that at high %s, Yoshi has to walk to cover full away DI, which means that he cannot cover full behind DI because the tilt turn animation takes several frames before Yoshi can transition into walk.

    U-throw > D-smash (30 frames)
    No, slight/full away DI: 6% to ~70%

    Comments: D-smash does not lead into guaranteed follow-ups. Its purpose is to hit Fox off-stage.

    U-throw > F-smash (38 frames)
    Slight/full away DI: 101% to ~134%

    Comments: F-smash does not lead into guaranteed follow-ups. Its purpose is to hit Fox off-stage. Note that F-smash doesn’t cover full behind DI as well, so it stops being guaranteed at a lower %.

    U-throw > dash attack (38 frames)
    Slight/full away DI: 101% to >160%

    Comments: Dash attack does not lead into guaranteed follow-ups. Its purpose is to hit Fox off-stage.

    U-throw > dash grab (36 frames)
    This doesn’t really work.

    Comments: Though dash grab should work going by the frame calculations, the grab hitbubble misses a tumbling Fox on the first 3 frames that it’s out, so it’s not a reliable option.

    U-throw > DJC U-air (36 frames)
    No, slight away DI: 77% to >160%
    Full away DI: 89% to >160%

    Comments: DJC U-air leads into guaranteed follow-ups at the lower part of its follow-up range; however, it is very difficult to execute a frame-perfect DJC U-air to get a successful follow-up. Full away DI requires a 1 frame dash input to cover.

    U-throw > SH or FJ N-air (32 frames)
    No DI: 30% to >160%
    Slight/full away DI: 42% to >160%

    Comments: N-air does not lead into guaranteed follow-ups. Its purpose is to hit Fox off-stage.

    D-throw follow-ups [Fox]

    D-throw > [dash] WD D-smash (44 frames)
    Full away DI: ~6% to >160%

    D-throw > F-smash (37 frames)
    No, full behind DI: 0% to >160%

    Comments: F-smash does not lead into guaranteed follow-ups. Its purpose is to hit Fox off-stage. Note that at high %s, Yoshi has to angle F-smash upwards, and he must walk to cover no DI.

    D-throw > dash grab (35 frames)
    Slight away DI: 0% to ~118%

    D-throw > DJC U-air (35 frames)
    No, slight away, slight/full behind DI: 0% to >160%

    Comments: DJC U-air leads to follow-ups at the lower part of its follow-up range. There is a lot of leniency with regards to its execution.

    D-throw > DJC or SH N-air (33 or 31 frames)
    No, slight away, slight/full behind DI: 0% to >160%

    Comments: DJC N-air may lead to follow-ups at the lower part of its follow-up range. At higher %s, its purpose is to hit Fox off-stage.

    D-throw > grounded tech chase
    Full away DI: 0% to ~144%

    Comments: see PerhapsMan’s flowchart to cover all grounded tech options.



    The tl;dr version is as follows:

    1. D-throw leads into pretty easy guaranteed follow-ups on no, slight behind, and full behind DI from 0% to >160%.

    2. If the opponent must hit the ground, D-throw leads into a tech chase setup on full away DI from 0% to ~144%. Slight away DI seems to be the hardest to cover because it's difficult to follow up with an attack and Fox can jump before hitting the ground.

    3. U-throw follow-ups require almost frame perfect precision, but U-throw leads to direct follow-ups whereas D-throw necessitates a tech chase or can't follow up at all if the target does full away DI (depending on stage position). The important ones to consider are U-throw > D-smash between 6% and ~70%, U-throw > F-smash between 101% and ~134%, and U-throw > N-air between 42% and >160%.

    Here's my opinion on the application of this information:

    Fox is below 30%
    Near edge? NO: D-throw
    Near edge? YES: Platform above? NO: Fox is over or at 6%? YES: U-throw > D-smash OR D-throw
    Near edge? YES: Platform above? YES: D-throw
    Otherwise D-throw

    Fox should always want to DI D-throw away, which means he can escape a forced tech chase if Yoshi grabs him near the edge of the stage. In this case, U-throw > D-smash would deal more damage and put Fox in a worse situation. However, D-throw near the edge would yield a beefier punish if Fox misses his DI. Do not U-throw if Fox can land on a platform because he will not be forced into knockdown below 30%.

    Please realize that Yoshi can still WD > D-smash Fox off D-throw at relevant %s if Fox falls off the stage but not too far off the stage for D-smash to miss. Because Fox never hits the ground in this case and he can't grab the edge during hitstun, Yoshi actually has slightly more leniency when it comes to performing this combo. A D-smash at this point would be difficult or impossible to edge tech and would put Fox in a precarious position.

    Fox is between 30% and 70%
    Near edge? NO: D-throw
    Near edge? YES: Platform above? NO: U-throw > D-smash OR D-throw
    Near edge? YES: Platform above? YES: U-throw

    What changes here is that Yoshi can force Fox into knockdown on a platform with U-throw, which may be better than him DI'ing off-stage with D-throw. Again, D-throw near the edge would yield a beefier punish if Fox misses his DI.

    Fox is between 71% and 100%
    Near edge? NO: Fox is over or at ~80%? NO: D-throw > U-air
    Near edge? NO: Fox is over or at ~80%? YES: D-throw > F-smash or N-air
    Near edge? YES: Platform above? NO: U-throw > N-air
    Near edge? YES: Platform above? YES: U-throw

    U-throw > D-smash no longer works in this range and Yoshi's best option to hit Fox off-stage is a N-air. Above ~80%, Yoshi cannot follow up after DJC U-air.

    Fox is between 101% and 134%
    Near edge? NO: D-throw > F-smash, N-air, or WD D-smash OR U-throw > F-smash or N-air
    Near edge? YES: U-throw > F-smash or N-air

    Keep in mind that the U-throw follow-ups require fewer inputs to perform than the D-throw follow-ups if Fox does full away DI. Note that F-smash stops working on full behind DI starting at ~120%.

    Fox is above 134%
    Near edge? NO: D-throw > F-smash, N-air, or WD D-smash OR U-throw > N-air
    Near edge? YES: U-throw > N-air



    To be further investigated:
    - How to follow up U-throw onto a platform
     
    #184 DD151, Apr 28, 2015
    Last edited: May 4, 2015
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  25. PerhapsMan

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    Testing for slight DI away on Dthrow (I did not test past 160%):

    - Dashgrab works from 0-150% 0-118% unless Fox is lower port # than Yoshi
    - Uair and DJC Uair work from 0-160%
    - Dash Jump Nair works from 0-160%

    Given these, slight DI away shouldn't be a problem.

    Edit: Also for full DI away, Yoshi can Dthrow > Wavedash Dsmash from 7-160% (didn't test further).
     
    #185 PerhapsMan, Apr 28, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2015
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  26. DD151

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    Yoshi can actually D-throw > WD D-smash Fox starting from 0% unless the 20XX Fox wasn't fully DI'ing away. It's really impractical because you need to time it frame perfectly.

    Also I think Yoshi can re-grab no DI and full DI behind if he does a quick dash dance in place. This doesn't seem practical either because the z-axis nonsense can really screw Yoshi over.

    EDIT: Nope, 20XX Fox teched on the frame that D-smash came out once. I did get it to work at 6% though...
     
    #186 DD151, Apr 29, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2015
  27. PerhapsMan

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    In the case of no DI (just do standing grab) and full behind DI, pivot grab might be more useful than dash dance dashgrab. In general I think going for a combo or tech trap out of low % Dthrows is more efficient anyway, but I am still interested in exploring the chaingrab fully just to see what it would be like.

    You were right about Wavedash Dsmash as well: starts at 6%!

    Also: Correction for some of the Dthrow slight DI follow-ups: dashgrab only works until 118% if Fox is a higher port # than Yoshi. Uair, DJC Uair and Nair all still work to 160%
     
    #187 PerhapsMan, Apr 29, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2015
  28. DD151

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    Alright, I'll leave the chaingrab exploration up to you; I wanted to hammer out throw follow-ups vs. Falco but I have had just about enough with training mode for now.

    While I'm at it, though, here's something else that I briefly investigated:

    F-air to grounded down-B from Battlefield side platform:
    C. Falcon - until 132%
    Falco - until 125%
    Fox - until 114%

    This sadly doesn't really help against the slower fallers. I was doing a waveland straight down instead of a DJL because DJL to down-B is hard. I think that holding down doesn't allow Yoshi to DJL on a platform and doing the down-B without dropping through the platform is too hard for me to bother.
     
    #188 DD151, Apr 29, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2015
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  29. DD151

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    Here's more throw follow-up experimentation, this time against not fast-fallers.

    D-throw > F-air (no, full behind DI):
    Marth: from 13% *
    Pikachu: from 0%
    Sheik: from 43%
    Y. Link: from 13%

    * vs. Marth the F-air has to be frame perfect at all %s, e.g., at 43%, which is where Marth suffers an extra frame of hitstun, Yoshi must be frame perfect on the jump and then execute F-air on frame 2 in the air instead of frame 1, otherwise he will miss. Additionally, while Yoshi can probably cover slight behind DI from the other 3 characters, he might not be able to cover slight behind DI from Marth.

    I tested ICs and F-air misses. I neglected to test opponents of 100 weight and higher because the %s required for sufficient hitstun are too high to be practical. I also neglected to test un-viable characters such as Roy, but I'm almost certain it will work on him starting from 13%, for example. Yoshi does not need to turn around to cover behind DI - he can hit the opponent using a backwards analog jump.

    D-throw > up-B
    Doesn't work on anyone that I tested.

    vs. characters such as Peach and Jigglypuff who are not vulnerable to guaranteed follow-ups after D-throw, do NOT commit to up-B out of D-throw. Wait until they are out of jumps or Yoshi no longer has a good position below them to immediately threaten. If they still have jumps, Yoshi should threaten their position and try to bait out a double jump or an air dodge or something else unsafe.



    EDIT: for the ****s and giggles

    D-throw > grounded down-B (no DI):
    Pikachu: from 43%
    Y. Link: from 102%

    D-throw > grounded down-B (full behind DI):
    Pikachu: from 73%
    Y. Link: from 132%

    Poor Pikachu. This actually works up to a pretty high % (still worked at 132% vs. Pikachu) if Yoshi delays his down-B for a couple of frames. Also keep in mind that with controller port advantage, these combos start working around 30% earlier (which means that, for example, D-throw > grounded down-B would true combo Sheik with no DI starting at 102%).
     
    #189 DD151, Apr 29, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2015
  30. DD151

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    I shared this in the Yoshi Skype group, but I might as well make a post here so everything is in once place.

    D-throw > neutral B (full away DI):
    ICs: from 13%
    Marth: from 0%
    Pikachu: from 0%
    Sheik: from 13%
    Y. Link: from 0%

    vs. Sheik, Yoshi has to SH in order to connect with neutral B, otherwise he will miss. vs. Pikachu and Y. Link, I think he can either SH or FJ (don't quite remember if it was one or both opponents when I was testing). vs. Pikachu and Sheik, Yoshi can neutral B no DI, but there are clearly better follow-ups.

    Egg Lay is a pretty weak option, but it's notable in that it's the only guaranteed follow-up on away DI for these characters. As far as a practical application goes, this can be used to reverse stage position if Yoshi grabs an opponent with his back facing the edge.
     
    #190 DD151, May 1, 2015
    Last edited: May 1, 2015
  31. DD151

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    ~Quadruple post~

    I was randomly thinking about the Thunders combo today (Fox shine > jab reset vs. opponents that get knocked down by shine) and wondered if Yoshi could do a similar combo with his D-tilt. I quickly tested vs. Marth and C. Falcon and discovered that Yoshi can jab reset a missed tech off D-tilt if neither character DIs. This piqued my curiosity, so I went and collected the following data:

    [​IMG]

    If "Air ___ DI" < "D-t HS," that means the character cannot jump out before he hits the ground. Values for air time might fluctuate by a frame or so because sometimes the character hits the ground slightly later or earlier due to being in a different knockback animation. The optimal DI for D-tilt is actually 118 degrees, but I chose 135 degrees because it's the best approximation that was easy enough for me to test and an opponent would most likely be attempting to DI in a direction corresponding to a controller notch.

    How to interpret this data:

    Characters who are forced into knockdown with no DI: all characters except Jigglypuff
    Characters who are forced into knockdown with 135° DI: Bowser, DK, Ganon, Yoshi, C. Falcon, Link, Sheik, Roy, Y. Link, Falco *, Fox *

    * Falco and Fox fly too far and hit the ground too soon for a jab reset to be possible.

    D-tilt has 15 frames cooldown after its first active hitbox frame. A frame-perfect wavedash takes 15 frames before Yoshi is actionable. Jab has 3 frames start-up. A character's missed tech animation is 26 frames. What this means is that Yoshi has (x - 8) frames to dash to the opponent, x being the number of frames that the opponent is airborne. This is more lenient against heavy characters (since they don't get knocked as far) and slower falling characters (since they hit the ground later but still in hitstun).

    Since Yoshi positions himself to jab reset opponents and does not have to commit to an attack until his wavedash is complete, he is also in a position to tech chase techrolls on reaction. Responding to tech in place is more difficult because Yoshi frequently will only be able to jab before the opponent is actionable, although F-tilt and D-smash may work vs. certain characters. I guess getting a 2-hit jab combo isn't so bad if you can't get anything else.



    EDIT: also a brief note on Yoshi's tools on reaction vs. get-up options. Yoshi can cover regular get-up and get-up attack with F-smash if he positions himself correctly. F-smash pullback allows Yoshi to dodge get-up attacks (even the huge ones like Marth's) and punish. This could be useful if the opponent is near the edge, where F-smash could potentially cover 3 get-up options on reaction and then roll in can be covered by almost anything else.
     
    #191 DD151, May 1, 2015
    Last edited: May 4, 2015
  32. PerhapsMan

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    I wanted to see what Dtilt > Dash Wavedash > Jab Reset would look like, so here it is:

    [​IMG]

    I think your math is off by 1 frame - it should be (x-8) frames to dash. This is really cool, though!

    I will also add all of the combos you did into the OP. Thanks to you, there is a lot of new stuff to add.

    Edit: for Dthrow Egg Lay, do you know the upper limit? To what % did you test?
     
    #192 PerhapsMan, May 2, 2015
    Last edited: May 2, 2015
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  33. DD151

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    I didn't include the frame of dashing to the wavedash, the logic being that you'd already be dashing before the wavedash. So my math has Yoshi not being in the dash animation for 33 frames (D-tilt 9-23, jumpsquat 0-4, 10 frames landingfallspecial, 3 frames jab) and the opponent having a missed tech animation of 26 frames. Because jab comes out on frame 3, it can hit the 26th frame of the missed tech animation.

    EDIT: forgot about the first frame of dmgflytop or whatever. It's (x - 8).

    As far as application of the Yoshi Thunders combo goes (if I were egomaniacal this would be the dondon combo LOL), I think good opponents would be able to tech the D-tilt somewhat frequently, though this sets up a tech chase that has greater frame leniency against characters that are heavy and airborne for longer. Against characters who are not airborne for very long such as C. Falcon and Sheik, they are more likely to miss the tech, so the jab reset is more likely to work. Additionally, against tall characters, if D-tilt shield pokes, they may have triggered the no-tech window by accident.

    Obviously jab reset leads to F-air and U-airs so that's great. More combo starters. Given that perfect wavedashes are crucial to executing this technique and D-throw follow-ups on DI away, I'm seriously considering notching my control stick to more consistently get perfect wavedashes.

    No, I didn't test past 0%, I thought it was too useless to warrant further testing lol. Low knockback growth and such.
     
    #193 DD151, May 2, 2015
    Last edited: May 2, 2015
  34. DD151

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    Here's more disparate, random stuff.

    F-throw and B-throw don't cause tumble until 71% if unstale. These throws suck so much that it would be hard to even get tech follow-ups, though. B-throw is worse than F-throw in terms of cooldown. Maybe there is something unexplored in terms of legit F-throw or B-throw follow-ups, but I think it's terribly unlikely and that's for someone else to test.

    Jab > D-smash is not a true combo against anyone until %s high enough to be impractical in a real match. However, it's worth noting that Dr. Mario's jab > D-smash is never a true combo either, but that doesn't prevent people from getting hit by it. The problem is that every opponent can simply buffer a shield and block Yoshi's D-smash.

    U-tilt > [up-angled] F-smash is a combo vs. space animals that works until pretty high %. I did it casually vs. Fox up until 112% or so without diving into the nitty-gritty frame advance testing. This combo works vs. no DI, all forms of DI away, and slight DI behind. Also, up until 60% or so, Yoshi can do U-air > U-tilt > F-smash vs. space animals and C. Falcon. If the opponent DIs the U-tilt away, then Yoshi can F-smash him while facing the edge, which is better than the standard N-air combo finisher off a U-air chain.

    So here's a question that I've had for awhile: Yoshi's B-air is supposed to do 22% if all hits connect, but I only ever see it do 20%. Does every hit cause the move to stale itself or something?



    EDIT: oooh, this is kind of important. In your combo section on DJC N-air > dash grab, you should mention that if a character lands while in hitstun but not in tumble, he'll transition straight into the normal landing animation. Many characters are not airborne long enough after being hit by N-air at 0% for dash grab to be a true combo. Even if the character lands and does nothing but shield, some will dodge Yoshi's dash grab because of z-axis nonsense.

    Of the relevant characters who do not reach the ground prematurely at 0%, they include Marth, Puff, and Peach. Sheik and C. Falcon are, in my opinion, 2 characters whom Yoshi should never attempt to dash grab out of N-air at low % because his dash grab misses both of them in their shielding animation. It's probably better to D-tilt or F-tilt them instead.
     
    #194 DD151, May 3, 2015
    Last edited: May 3, 2015
  35. Kimimaru

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    Can a Parry -> U-smash hit a perfectly spaced Peach FC F-air? I feel it'll have a better chance of hitting if Yoshi hits during the first active frames of U-smash, meaning he'd have to get hit while facing backwards.
     
  36. PerhapsMan

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    Unfortunately, Peach pulls her hand back after she lands, so this is what it will look like with approximately the best spacing.

    [​IMG]

    It's also worth noting that Usmash isn't guaranteed against frame perfect FC Fair, since it is only -11 while JC Usmash takes 12 frames to hit.
     
    #196 PerhapsMan, May 8, 2015
    Last edited: May 8, 2015
  37. Kimimaru

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    Ah, that's a shame. Thanks! What would be the best options to counter it aside from Parry -> N-air? There's gotta be something that can lead into a kill off the top at high percent.

    Also, wouldn't it essentially be guaranteed since (to my knowledge at least) Peach doesn't have anything she can do about it in 1 frame?
     
    #197 Kimimaru, May 9, 2015
    Last edited: May 9, 2015
  38. Purpletuce

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    I mix up hitting her before she uses the fair, and punishing her landing if she comes up short. Also, if you get a parry, I'd go for a fair. If you're fishing for a kill, you can try egg lay to pop her up, then hit her on her way down. It isn't reliable, because they can act out of breaking out of egg instantly, but most people won't.

    Peach can shield in 1 frame.
     
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  39. Kimimaru

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    @PerhapsMan Is it possible to get GIFs or images of Yoshi's ledge grab rectangles?
     
  40. PerhapsMan

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    Here you go! Ignore the large blue box.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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