Some Yoshi Information

[Kimimaru]

This topic deserves a sticky.

 

[kofinater]

who are the mods here?

 

[Kimimaru]

Can you check the hitboxes/hurtboxes for using running grab on Sheik while she's shielding? For whatever reason the grab whiffs a lot when it doesn't seem like it should.

 

[MrHazuki]

Question: Can a grab box interfere with a shield, or is it only hurtboxes?

 

[Sashimi]

@ Kimimaru

Normally I'd say Yoshi's dash grab gets easily "Roy-zoned" where you space it too closely and it ends up on the other side of your opponent, missing, but I'm sure you're already familiar with that. I will look specifically at Sheik's hurtboxes when she's shielding to see if any funny business is going on there. My initial guess is that Sheik's stance while in shield makes her hurtboxes very thin, allowing Yoshi's dash-grab to get Roy-zoned more easily.

@ MrHazuki

Grabs don't seem to interact with regular shields in any way, but Yoshi's shield remains a mystery in this context as usual. Because Yoshi's body is intangible while in shield, the only way I can imagine Yoshi gets grabbed at all is if grabs do interact with his shield. It has its own animation/name so I could see it having a special type of hitbox unique to itself (which would also explain why his shield seems to have a different colour bubble in the debug menu).

 

[kofinater]

curious on the invulnerable aerial interrupt, can it be down on battlefield? i've done it on other stages without invincibility and hadn't thought to use it to maintain ledge invulnerability but that seems like a potentially huge option but not being able to do it on battlefield would be a bummer.

 

[Kimimaru]

What percentage does the 3rd downward hit (the meteor/spike) of Marth/Roy's Dancing Blade break Yoshi's superarmor? I played a Marth yesterday that tried it against me while I was recovering and missed, but it piqued my interest.

 

[hectohertz]

curious on the invulnerable aerial interrupt, can it be down on battlefield? i've done it on other stages without invincibility and hadn't thought to use it to maintain ledge invulnerability but that seems like a potentially huge option but not being able to do it on battlefield would be a bummer.

do you know the frames for it? I can test it for you

 

[kofinater]

do you know the frames for it? I can test it for you

Spoiler: Aerial Interrupt

This isn't fast enough for a ledge stall, but can be used to get onstage with full invincibility.

1 Grab Ledge
9 Let go
10 Double Jump forward
11 (hold forward)
26 Aerial [Land]
38 [Vulnerable]

If done frame perfect, you can act on frame 30. It is possible to use Dsmash or any tilt with the hitbox out before intangibility is over (you have 8 frames).

Frame 35 of the GIF is shown here:

 

[hectohertz]

Spoiler: Aerial Interrupt

This isn't fast enough for a ledge stall, but can be used to get onstage with full invincibility.

1 Grab Ledge
9 Let go
10 Double Jump forward
11 (hold forward)
26 Aerial [Land]
38 [Vulnerable]

If done frame perfect, you can act on frame 30. It is possible to use Dsmash or any tilt with the hitbox out before intangibility is over (you have 8 frames).

Frame 35 of the GIF is shown here:

dope, i've been playing around with aerial interrupts a decent amount (discovered ones with pika, marth, and sheik!), so i feel i am actually pretty well suited to test this. will post w/ results when im done

 

[Sashimi]

@ K kofinater @ hectohertz

Some quick testing indicates that the inputs listed there will not work on Battlefield (double jumping forward will put you under the ledge), and so far I haven't been able to do it any other way that allows it to work on Battlefield, but if either of you can make it work on that stage, please let me know!

@ Kimimaru

Now that you've given me the idea, I think I will make a list of the %s at which moves (hopefully every move, but that will take a while) break the DJ armor. I'll do the Marth side B first since that's the one you asked about.

 

[Sashimi]

(Sorry for the double post)

@ Kimimaru

Marth's Side B meteor breaks Yoshi's armour at 44%. I haven't tested Roy's yet.

As for the Sheik thing, I found two interesting things. While Sheik is in shield, her stance is angled slightly away from the player in the z-axis. In addition, Yoshi's dashgrab is angled slightly towards the player in the z-axis. The combination of these two makes it easy for this to happen:

Spoiler

After I saw this I wanted to see what her standing animation would be like, and found this:

Spoiler

This makes it very difficult (but not impossible) to dashgrab Sheik while she is standing or in shield.

I have more examples of this that you can see here.

sakurai pls

 

[MrHazuki]

The first example of this I know of in Melee. Naturally it has to be Yoshi.

 

[Kimimaru]

Wow, as unfortunate as that is it's very interesting! So is JC grab better against Sheik then? I suspect the initial dash grab frames by Yoshi's mouth may be better for grabbing Sheik than his tongue.

One more question: If Sheik is facing away from you, then shouldn't it be easier to grab her since her knees are in the way?

 

[Sashimi]

JC grab does not move anywhere along the z-axis, so it would not have this problem. However, the initial dash grab frames aren't any more effective than the later ones since the grab comes out when Yoshi's head is pulled furthest to the side.

Yep, Sheik is easier to dashgrab when facing away from you because Yoshi will move his head in the same direction as Sheik's knees bend.

 

[hectohertz]

dope, i've been playing around with aerial interrupts a decent amount (discovered ones with pika, marth, and sheik!), so i feel i am actually pretty well suited to test this. will post w/ results when im done

okay i found one on BF.
drop from ledge, press jump when frame counter says fall 2
press jump without holding in
next frame start holding in
interrupt with aerial when frame counter is JumpAirF 16


@ K kofinater @ Sashimi

 

[Sashimi]

@ hectohertz Thanks so much! I'll add it to the first post.

 

[hectohertz]

@ hectohertz Thanks so much! I'll add it to the first post.

no problem. thank you for all the awesome content!

also, in the writeup of it, you made a typo. hold in should happen on frame 13, not 11

 

[Purpletuce]

The aerial landing seems easier to do if you drop down further. Naturally, this makes it a worse option because you lose the invincibility... Any idea why it seems easier? Is it just my hands are less busy so I can time it more accurately?

Also, am I correct to assume that the grab being offset on the z axis is why yoshi's running grab is hard to hit on CF and gannon as well (rarely marth?)

 

[Sashimi]

@ Purpletuce I can't see any notable difference with Yoshi's ECB if you drop down further before jumping, so I think it's probably just easier to time the aerial when your fingers aren't moving as fast. It definitely feels easier this way for me too.

After checking, Yoshi's dashgrab does seem to have the same issue with CF and Ganon. I'm guessing anyone whose knees bend while standing in this way will have the same effect.

 

[Purpletuce]

Makes sense. Thanks, detective!

 

[Kimimaru]

PerhapsMan, do you think you can post the frame data for Yoshi's throws (Up, Down, Forward, Back)? I would like to see when he is invincible during them and exactly when he releases his opponent.

EDIT: Also, the RECE gif is broken on the OP.

 

[Sashimi]

@ Kimimaru Done. I learned quite a bit while doing the throws! The information is in the "Hitbox Properties" section.

The RECE gif is working for me, so I'm not sure what's wrong there.

 

[hectohertz]

@ Purpletuce I can't see any notable difference with Yoshi's ECB if you drop down further before jumping, so I think it's probably just easier to time the aerial when your fingers aren't moving as fast. It definitely feels easier this way for me too.

After checking, Yoshi's dashgrab does seem to have the same issue with CF and Ganon. I'm guessing anyone whose knees bend while standing in this way will have the same effect.

so from experience playing with aerial interrupts, most characters can do a no-invincibility version of their aerial interrupt by dropping for longer and then delaying the aerial. this often greatly increases the window to do the AI, but with a huge loss of invincibility. the most extreme way to see this is to look at No-Impact-Lands. In a situation where your char will no-impact land, there is often a huge window where inputting an aerial will cause an AI. however, in order to get into this situation for the NIL in the first place, you likely have burned all your invincibility frames.

for instance, with sheik, doing her aerial interrupt w/ max invincibilty requires two one frame links. however, if youre willing to sacrifice almost all your invincibility, you can make it significantly easier to do (the second window becomes a 6f link, not sure about the first off the top of my head, will look at my notes tn)

 

[Kimimaru]

Are all the throws invincible on the first 8 frames or do the invincibility frames start somewhere in the middle of the animation?

 

[Sashimi]

Always the first 8 frames of the throw.

 

[kofinater]

Still havn't got interrupts down . But i was wondering how much invincibility can you retain from rising upair from the ledge? It almost seems like you can touch the ground before becoming vulnerable same with nair.

 

[Sashimi]

@ K kofinater Sorry for the wait.

As it turns out, you can in fact do invincible Uair from the ledge, and the way Yoshi flips during the Uair actually makes it work really well for this. With the right timing, you can be intangible right up until the last frame of your landing lag. The timing is weirdly specific, though.

Spoiler

1 Grab Ledge
9 Let Go
10 Double Jump forwards
11-19 Optional Hold forwards
20-22 Hold forwards
23 Uair
23-29 L-cancel
27 [Hitbox]
29 [Land]
29-37 [Landing Lag]
38 [Vulnerable]

First frame of the hitbox:

Last frame of landing lag:

If you hit your opponent, the hitlag makes the timing a little different.
1 Grab Ledge
9 Let Go
10 Double Jump forwards
11-19 Optional Hold forwards
20-22 Hold forwards
23 Uair
27 [Hitbox]
28-33 [Hitlag]
29-35 L-cancel
35 [Land]
35-43 [Landing Lag]
38 [Vulnerable]

Without this timing you'll spend too much time in the air to land while intangible, but you can still get the Uair out safely.


Also, I had no idea but apparently you have less hitlag (by half it seems) if you get hit while crouching.

 

[kofinater]

@ Sashimi no worries, 'bout to start some serious 20EggsEggs training this is super good. This, aerial interupts and frame perfect downb stalls will make yoshi scary at the edge.

 

[kofinater]

So some thoughts on fox's drill, when you get drilled from the air you can act sooner than getting drilled on the ground. Can fox always get shield up before yoshi can jab? I have been jumping right before drill and jabbing out of it recently and was wondering how real that was, sometimes i clank with shine.

 

[Sashimi]

Your landing lag takes 4 frames and jab takes 3. Fox has 9 frames of landing lag and shine/shield takes 1 frame. So in order for Fox to beat it, he needs to land at least 3 frames before you do. If he takes longer than this, you have enough time to jab.

If you were to parry instead of jab, you'd have a more lenient window (fox would need to land 6 or more frames before you) and you could cover the shine option with the parry and the shield option with a DJC Nair afterwards, provided you're comfortable with pressuring Fox's shield.

 

[Purpletuce]

Although if you try to parry-> djc nair him, after the at most 6 frame window for your parry, he will have ~10 frames before your nair comes out to catch you. Also it is worth noting that there is a good chance he will just go for a shine anyway, if not a grab or a Usmash. The latter two will probably hit you after your parry ends.

In theory Yoshi can come out ahead in that situation, but in practice, Fox will outjank you 9 times out of 10. His hitboxes are usually better and he will always put more out than you.

 

[Nuttre]

In theory Yoshi can come out ahead in that situation, but in practice, Fox will outjank you 9 times out of 10. His hitboxes are usually better and he will always put more out than you.

Being a low tier is tough

 

[Purpletuce]

I wasn't trying to say being a low tier is tough as much as I was trying to say you don't want to be in the janky situation, because Fox usually comes out on top. If you are thinking that he is going to shield, I'd either try to get out of there and reset to neutral (you think you can outplay him rather than outjank him), or go for the read with a grab (you think he is scared and will hold shield).

 

[Kimimaru]

If you're intangible and you shield, will you get invincibility on parry frames?

 

[Sashimi]

(This is assuming you mean intangible from the ledge - if I'm wrong, please let me know!)

Was curious about this, and it's actually the opposite of what I thought. Yoshi's intangibility lasts the whole time it normally would, even if you parry and jump out of the parry before the end of that intangible period, you don't get the invincibility and you don't lose the ledge intangibility. Parrying doesn't seem to have any use or effect during this time.

To make sure it wasn't a graphical error or anything, I had Mario jab during the parry window and he did not have any hitlag and there was no blue circle to indicate a parry. You can still reflect projectiles and powershield attacks though, because Yoshi's shield is still functional. Oddly enough, the shield hitbox is coloured blue during this time because of the intangibility.

 

[Kimimaru]

Thanks! Yes, I did mean intangibility from the ledge. Is there another method of obtaining intangibility that isn't ledge intangibility or intangibility from a move?

 

[Sashimi]

Not that I can think of. I was mostly thinking you might have meant parrying immediately after something intangible like a roll.

 

[DD151]

Here's a link to an Excel spreadsheet that records the %ages at which every attack in the game break Yoshi's DJ armor: https://db.tt/ivt0frrk

I basically copied and pasted the hitbox information from the SSBM hitboxes [...] .xlsx file and then used the KB formula to calculate when attacks would break Yoshi's DJ armor. I pared out the unplayable characters and throw hitboxes because the former are unimportant and the latter would only be rarely relevant in teams. I also trimmed out several unimportant columns to make the spreadsheet less cluttered.

The 120 KB % column lists the minimum %ages at which a given unstaled attack breaks Yoshi's DJ armor and causes him to fall. The 200 KB % column lists the minimum %ages at which a given unstaled attack breaks Yoshi's DJ armor and causes him to go into tumble after hitstun ends (which means you'll likely tech if you land on the ground and you have to untumble before attempting an air dodge).

I tested this in training mode with a couple of Ganondorf's aerials, and the %ages in both columns seem to be accurate. Note that attacks which have non-zero weight-based KB (WBK) will yield improper results, so they should be ignored. If a %age is negative, you can treat it as 0% (e.g., Falco's shine breaks Yoshi's DJ armor at -5%).

There's a lot of junk here, including attacks that a double jumping Yoshi will either never get hit by or never have to worry about. Perhaps PerhapsMan (hurrr) can condense this information in a more palatable form.

 

[Sashimi]

Wow, that is really extremely helpful! Thanks so much. If you don't mind, I will put a link to it in the OP and include a shorter list of the relevant moves that is easier to read. I'll make sure you are credited with the bulk of the information!

Edit: Also I can easily include the information for WBK moves so that's not a problem.