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Some Yoshi Information

Discussion in 'Yoshi' started by PerhapsMan, Apr 3, 2014.

  1. Sieghart

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    Turn Debug Mode on and press Y+Dpad Down for the frames. Press Y+Dpad Right for the hitboxes/hurtboxes.
     
  2. PerhapsMan

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    Throws give you less of a frame advantage if you are the lower port because the higher port player being thrown starts their hitstun animation on the second frame, and their hitstun ends a frame earlier.
     
  3. DD151

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    @PerhapsMan

    I've thought about the possibility of second hit jab creating a knockdown into tech chase opportunity vs. fast fallers and medium fallers. Care to investigate?
     
  4. PerhapsMan

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    I've tested a bit for Fox. Here's what I have so far:

    Second hit jab will knock Fox over at 71%, and since second hit jab usually comes after first, I used 68% Fox to test everything.

    On No DI, Yoshi will be actionable the frame after Fox hits the ground. I think the best movement option to get to Fox's landing spot would be 1 frame dash followed by a wavedash. The dash can be buffered 1 frame early. Dash Wavedash will leave Yoshi actionable on frame 18 of Fox's tech option.

    For 0 degree DI and 180 degree DI, Yoshi will be actionable 2 frames later or earlier, respectively.

    After the wavedash, you can techchase on reaction just like with Dthrow. It is a bit tougher and you have fewer options, but at the % where Fox is getting knocked over by second jab, you just want to get him offstage.

    Punishing tech in place: 2 frame window for Up Tilt, 4 frame window for Forward Tilt or Down Smash, 7 frame window for Jab. Jab will lose to ASDI down, but if Fox does not do this, the jab will lead to a second one which sets up another techchase. The extra % is enough to give Yoshi 1 extra frame for the second techchase. With Forward Tilt and Down Smash it is easy to land the good hitbox (strong hit for Dsmash and 80 degree hit for Forward Tilt).

    Two of these options are shown in this example:

    [​IMG]

    Punish techroll away: this one is harder. I couldn't find a way to land Dashgrab, but Dash Attack works. Run Cancel Down Smash has a 2 frame window. It will probably tipper.

    [​IMG]

    Punish techroll behind: this one is easy. Dashgrab and Dash Attack both have negligible frame windows. Down Smash probably works but will tipper.

    [​IMG]
     
    #244 PerhapsMan, Nov 27, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2015
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  5. DD151

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    Related: against a character like Marth, if he techrolls away vs. Yoshi's D-tilt (and he has enough stage to get the full roll distance), can Yoshi cover that with anything other than dash attack?
     
  6. PerhapsMan

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    While it is possible to cover the other tech options, Yoshi can't catch Marth's techroll away. This is a fair tradeoff considering that the techroll away means Marth will go from here

    [​IMG]

    to here.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. flieskiller

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  8. DD151

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    The 80 KB column was erroneous; 120 KB is the threshold for both successful CC and DJ armor.

    DJ armor applies a -120 KB flat reduction and CC reduces KB by a factor of 1/3. Since 80 KB is the tumble threshold, an attack must have 120 or greater KB to "break" CC.

    I cleaned up the spreadsheet to remove low-yield columns and to fix all of the WDSK attacks. It should be completely accurate now.
     
    #248 DD151, Dec 11, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
  9. DD151

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    @PerhapsMan

    In the Earliest Tumble subheader you should add a section for throws: D-throw 0%, U-throw 30%, F-throw and B-throw 71%.

    I've used edgehop Egg Lay a couple of times in friendlies and I think it's usable enough to warrant inclusion in the list of ledge options. It has the longest horizontal range of all of Yoshi's ledge options and it can beat opponents who are shielding or crouching near the ledge. A successful Egg Lay also reverses stage position with the opponent.

    I've noticed that with the correct timing, Yoshi sort of does an aerial interrupt onto the stage. I'm wondering if Egg Lay has a downwards ECB distortion that allows for this and if it can be done fully invincible until the hitbox comes out on frame 17.
     
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  10. PerhapsMan

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    I remember trying to use Egg Lay's ECB shift to get an intangible ledgehop Egg Lay, but I don't remember it working. I will try again just to make sure, and I'll add a section for it anyway. I agree it's useful, especially vs a character like Peach whose crouch cancel dsmash hard counters ECEs once she gets that close.

    Thanks for the throw tumble %s, I'll add them!
     
  11. DD151

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    Yeah, maybe I'm not really doing an aerial interrupt but i'm just timing the Egg Lay such that Yoshi has barely enough upward momentum to clear the edge and land immediately on stage, not sure.
     
  12. PerhapsMan

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    There is a way to get a pseudo aerial interrupt with all of Yoshi's specials except Yoshi Bomb, but for ledgehop egg lay, the aerial interrupt isn't optimal. It's actually slower than the timing I put in the original post.
     
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  13. DD151

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    Okay, your gif actually looks like exactly what I did. So I guess it's simply canceling upward momentum with the proper timing.

    Does Yoshi touch the ground before his intangibility ends?

    Also I'd recommend moving the Marth killer to the matchup-specific section to conserve space.
     
    #253 DD151, Dec 11, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
  14. PerhapsMan

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    Yeah the ledge section is getting very full. So many options!

    I am pretty sure Yoshi doesn't reach the ground until after the hitbox is already out.
    Edit: He reaches the ground after the hitbox is already gone.
     
    #254 PerhapsMan, Dec 12, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
  15. DD151

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    Oh, that's way more risky than I thought. If you get whiff punished then you're in a really bad spot.
     
  16. PerhapsMan

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    It is definitely not to be used liberally. Thankfully Yoshi has plenty of safe options from the ledge to balance it out.
     
  17. Mcubed

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    What inputs should be used for the edge-canceled-eggs. i tried: back(on analog stock) -> X/Y -> UpB, but i sometimes turned around and it was diffictuly to do consistently. Then I tried: back(on c-stick) -> Tap Jump -> UpB. It was more consistent, but I sometimes ended up bairing from the ledge and dieing, which I dont want to risk in a game. What is the proper or best wat to do this?
     
  18. PerhapsMan

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    I can't tell you which way is best for you; go with what works. If you want to do Back > XY, just let go of the stick before double jumping.
     
  19. Saltsizzle

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    Try down instead of back.
     
  20. Kimimaru

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    Overall I think pressing back is better since you don't run the risk of accidentally fast falling, which can mess up your ECE timing.
     
    #260 Kimimaru, Jan 10, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2016
  21. Ssbm_Jag

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    Hi. I just noticed some of your values for Yoshi's aerials are slightly off.

    Here are the correct values for Yoshi's aerials:

    U-air
    Hitlag=7
    Shieldstun=7

    If you follow your exact sequence as listed, double jump on frame 7 and u-air on 8 and don't fast fall, it will take 3 frames before Yoshi lands (unless I'm testing this incorrectly). Regardless, given that it'll usually take at least a frame to land (based on what you said and the fact that I can't reliably get u-air to hit 1 frame before landing after numerous djc attempts), there should always be at minimum 10 frames of lag for Yoshi (9 from landing and 1 from falling) and 7 frames of shieldstun lag for the opponent. This makes a typical djc U-air -3 on shield.

    SHFFL U-air is -2 on shield.

    This means in a real game scenario u-air can be pretty unsafe. I was fooling around Yoshi's story and if you run off a platform and fastfall u-air you'll typically have 2 frames of falling after the fast-fall u-air. So the disadvantage is -4. That being said it's pretty safe when you run off u-air, so as long as the direction the opponent is being pushed in shield is away from the direction Yoshi is drifting or as long as the opponents back is turned to yoshi and can't shield grab. Basically, to anyone reading this, hope they're not in shield facing you and that you don't fall right in front of them lol.

    F-air
    Hitlag=8
    Shieldstun=9
    -1 on shield

    SH AC B-air
    Hitlag=5,5,4,4
    Shieldstun=5,4,4,3
    -5 on shield

    N-air
    Hitlag=7
    Shieldstun=8
    +1 :}

    If you are unsure about these values you can retest them yourself. I tested this in-game as well as used the shieldstun formula on ssbwiki. N-air and U-air do not have the same shieldstun values.

    I'm too lazy to test d-air but I'd *assume* hitlag values are too low by 1 and shieldstun is too high by 1.

    There is one thing i'd like to share, because I haven't heard much talk about this and I feel Yoshi players should know about this, because it's really basic and could alleviate some frustrations. If you short hop and double jump on frame 8, you cannot n-air on frames 10-15 (or frames 3-8 of the double jump). What will happen is yoshi dip down and n-air into the ground. However, if you full hop and double jump on the same frame of 8, you can n-air on 10-15 without flubbing into the ground.

    Also, if you want to constantly set-up Yoshi's rapid powershield for testing, here's how I've been setting it up. Digital shield press on frame 1, from frames 2-4 you can roll, spot-dodge, or shield grab. Actions taken afterward seem to remove the effect. During the lag of whichever you choose, you need to hold Z and let go of the digital shoulder button press. It seems to me, although I'm really not sure, that the earlier you select an action from the digital press, the better/longer you can powershield things before the effect goes away.

    You can also hold an analog soft press on frame 1, press digital on 2, and from 3-4 you can act, buffer a lightshield during lag, and have the rapid powershield effect. Some might wonder, can I even act on frame 2? Oddly, no. If you try to jump, roll, spot-dodge, or grab on the same frame you digit press (frame 2), nothing will happen. You can however buffer a roll, spot-dodge, or even a jump using a C-stick. I consider this a true buffer with the C-stick, although it appears useless. So the sequence is:
    1 Soft Press
    2 Hard Press and hold the c-stick in any direction
    3 C-stick action will begin.
    4-whatever buffer

    This is contrary to the c-stick's function when you use the shield in any other way as the c-stick's input is active the exact frame you hold a direction. This second part was sort of related to rapid powershielding. I'm not sure if this is really a glitch. It seems really weird and specific.

    If the set-up for rapid powershielding was already known, then ok. I tried looking for the exact set-up online and only got hints like "it comes out usually after lag," but didn't find a reliable way to set it up. I'm almost 100% sure that at least a few Japanese players knew about it since aMSa and this other player have video of it online, but they didn't provide an explanation for the set-up.
     
    #261 Ssbm_Jag, Jan 17, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2016
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  22. PerhapsMan

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    Fixed the Up Uair thing. Thanks for catching that! However I already wrote a little bit on my shield stun and hitlag values in the OP, so that should be clear for people reading the OP. It's the same thing we talked about before.

    I don't think a -2 Uair or even a -3 Uair is bad, though. Plenty of characters have aerials that are about the same on shield, and they do just fine. There isn't really anything fast enough out of shield to punish Uair guaranteed (some Up Bs being the first thing I can think of, but only belonging to characters like G&W or DK), and DJC Uair can be spaced to avoid stuff like shield grabs anyway. If you don't outspace the grab, at -3 you can still jab, and even at -6 you can still parry. I don't really like jab on shield, but parry is a really strong option so Up Air has never given me any trouble during shield pressure. Also, cross up DJC Up Air is usually an option you can do in any situation where both players are on even ground.

    The DJC Nair timing thing is kind of annoying, yeah. It happens with Up Air too, but overally it's not a huge problem once you get used to it. If anyone has trouble with this, I think they can fix that by remembering to either start the double jump a little higher than they are, or to start the aerial as soon as possible after the double jump. The cool thing about the DJC is that even if you start the double jump a little high, the dip means you can still get the best possible frame advantage after the aerial.

    Thanks for the info on rapid powershield. However I won't be doing any more testing on it since there are no benefits to getting the powershield, as far as I am aware. I'd rather the powershield not exist at all. Yoshi would be better off without it!

    Edit: Also I was curious just now and had a hunch that DJC Uair can be done -2 after all. With this timing (and probably others but this is just the first decent one I got), you can get a -2 Uair:

    1 Jump
    9 Double Jump
    15 Up Air
    19 Fastfall

    Staying in the air a little longer and in double jump a little longer gives your ECB enough time to update before (or on, maybe) the hit frame of Up Air. Peach has to do something similar to get the full +4 from her FC Bair, so that's where I got the idea.
     
    #262 PerhapsMan, Jan 17, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2016
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  23. Ssbm_Jag

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    -2 to -3 isn't bad, you're right, I just feel I personally would be forced to use Yoshi's fastest shield pressure options at that point. Spacing is definitely possible with U-air. Cross ups with Yoshi are so annoying and can be very frustrating, at least for me, because of Yoshi's nose hurtbox that can get shield grabbed if facing an opponent. But I know there are ways around this, such as abusing air speed.
     
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  24. Getsafe

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    Edit:never mind

    But what input do you personally use for ECE?
     
    #264 Getsafe, Mar 11, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2016
  25. DD151

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    @PerhapsMan I'm tagging you because you're the lab monster

    The possibility occurred to me of using dash attack to cover DI away on Yoshi's D-throw vs. spacies to force a tech trap. I managed to test this vs. Fox at the earliest % that it's supposed to work (41% before the D-throw) and determined that it was possible with frame perfect inputs, which is unfortunate. I couldn't test this further because 20XX was doing weird things with the training mode CPUs.

    So basically I have two questions here:

    1. Can you force a tech trap vs. spacies this way off D-throw over a range of %s?
    2. Suppose that you get a knockdown off dash attack at various %s. What's the frame data like on covering no tech and tech options?
     
    #265 DD151, Apr 22, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2016
  26. Ssbm_Jag

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    @DD151

    I know you didn't ask me, but I'd still like to respond and try to give some input. At relevant percents on DI away, as I tested in frame advance mode, the dash attack keeps fox airborne for over 20 frames (negating the opponents techability frames), meaning it could induce a tech trap. That being said, the timing was very tight and there are better ways to tech chase.

    Yoshi can DWD (Dash Wavedash) and punish tech in place with f-tilt or d-tilt if your reactions allow you to distinguish between tech in place and tech roll. I think this is sorta 20GX-esque of Yoshi play, where if your reactions are good enough, you can cover everything. However, they take into account actual reaction times and incorporate that into Falcon's frame data, whereas I'm just saying Yoshi can do this, not proving that humans necessarily can. Currently, I cannot distinguish tech in place from tech roll, so I usually DWD, and they usually just tech roll out of fear, followed by me dash-grabbing them and buffering a d-throw which they usually do not DI correctly the second time. If they miss the tech, I get a free reactable jab reset. If they tech in place I just use standing grab, which isn't fantastic. Most spacies are so accustomed to tech in place+shine that you can attempt a standing grab and avoid the shine. Standing grab should cover spot-dodge as well. If they DI away and are force to tech near the edge of the stage, DWD+d-smash can cover all 4 options if you're good at timing it.

    You said you were wondering whether Yoshi has frame advantage on a tech in place or missed tech off a dash attack, he does at any relevant knockdown percents (on fox), as I just tested in frame advance. It's actually a significant advantage. Sourspot dash attack sends fox into tumble as early as 51%, and if yoshi has frame advantage then (which he does), he's sure to have it at later percents. The reason I consider sourspot and not sweetspot DA's hitbox is because if you cover tech-in-place with a dash attack, you're likely to land the lingering sourspot. I've seen it happen multiple times with other Yoshi players where dash attack leads to a missed tech which leads to a d-smash (Watch aMSa vs Ken on pokemon's, I'm pretty sure it was a landing punish, but it allowed for a d-smash follow up). I almost certain they need to DI inwards (which will likely happen a lot), as no DI or DI away doesn't really allow for convenient follow-ups on a missed tech, but rather "wake-up option tech chases." I say this b/c Fox did not land right next to me when I sourspot dash attacked him (when Yoshi was mostly done "lunging"), he landed slightly out of d-smash range. If you were to sweetspot dash attack him (while Yoshi just begins to lunge) and put him into tumble, you'd likely be right next to fox when he has to land in tumble, unless he DI'd away, maybe. Perhapsman, if he/you are interested further, can probably look into how DI plays an effect on sweetspot/sourspot dash attack follow-ups on characters with different weight/falling speeds, all I know is I've seen it work too many times to care to test this out any further.
     
    #266 Ssbm_Jag, Apr 22, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2016
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  27. PerhapsMan

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    @DD151 Can you share the inputs you used to land Down Throw > Dash Attack on Fox at around 41%? I could not get the Dash Attack to work on 0° DI because Fox reached the ground too soon.

    I tried it at 70% and it does work at this %. However, while the tech trap works, it does not give you enough time to Dash Wavedash to Fox's landing spot unless he DIs towards you. I tested for 135° DI but anywhere around that should give you a chance to techchase. If he does not DI, or DIs away, you will not be able to dash wavedash to his landing spot, which will make techchasing on reaction much more difficult.

    Once you get to about 70%, it is better to follow the 0° DI from Down Throw with something like Down Smash. I don't this tech trap will be useful at all against Falco or Captain Falcon, considering how hard it is to land Down Throw > Dash Attack on someone as light as Fox.

    ---

    With regards to techchasing off Dash Attack in general, the same things that I wrote for Down Throw techchasing in the OP apply to Dash Attack as well, assuming you can get to the landing spot and be actionable by the time you need to react. A very simple summary of that is:

    1. Dash Wavedash to the landing spot
    2. Up tilt, Forward Tilt, Down Tilt, Double Jab or Down Smash to punish tech in place.
    3. Dash Grab, Dash Attack or Down Smash to cover techrolls.
    4. Jab Reset the missed tech, or treat it like a tech in place against players who SDI the reset.


    In the case of Dash Attack to start a techchase, getting as close as possible to your target before hitting them helps quite a bit. If we use Fox at 45% as an example, the Dash Attack will carry Yoshi to Fox's landing spot on its own, so you don't need to worry about getting there. If Fox DIs away, you will have more limited options but you can still cover his tech in place with Forward Tilt, Down Tilt or Down Smash without having to move after your Dash Attack. You do also have time to walk forward too, which helps you get a little closer. This isn't necessary but is very easy since it can be buffered.

    I tested again at 75% with no DI, and it is harder to techchase. You have to land the Dash Attack very close to Fox if you want to cover tech in place without walking forward. In most cases you will need to walk forward, and I don't think there is any way to cover tech in place or techroll away on reaction if Fox DIs away. If he DIs in, it will be easy to cover, just like it was at 45%.

    At higher % (again, tested at 75), weak Dash Attack does become viable for techchasing if you can get a very late hit. Instead of the Dash Attack bringing you to the landing spot, you will have to Dash Wavedash. I tested on no DI, and it works but just barely, so it should work well against DI in, but not against DI away.

    Against other characters, you will have more time to move after the Dash Attack, but obviously the floaty characters won't have to tech if they DI in.

    tl;dr
    Unfortunately Dash Attack has enough endlag to make this difficult to use as a techchasing tool unless you get a hit that will carry you to the tech spot. There usually isn't enough time to make any extra movement like you would do after other moves like Down Throw, Nair, Ftilt etc. However, if you do get the close hit, it is pretty easy and rewarding to techchase off Dash Attack.
     
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  28. DD151

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    @PerhapsMan IIRC I dashed for 13 frames after D-throw before inputting dash attack.

    I think that this information is promising for some applications such as following up F-tilt on DI away and maybe challenging certain opponent aerials and positions. It's too bad that Yoshi's dash attack isn't Puff tier, but it's one of his better hitboxes.
     
    #268 DD151, Apr 22, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2016
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  29. Ssbm_Jag

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    I'm pretty sure all Yoshi players know about this, but I decided to make a video since no one really has yet. This usually happens on accident more times than not. Basically, if Yoshi is in high hitstun, ASDI's down, and then double jumps immediately while offstage, he can flutter significantly further. I'm not sure why exactly this is, but this seems to be yoshi exclusive. I would guess it was intentionally programmed this way seeing that it's Yoshi exclusive. I tried testing it out with Mewtwo and Ness and their dj's went the same distance as usual. I am posting this here because afaik, every Yoshi thread is dead except this one atm, and this isn't important enough to be its own thread.
     
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  30. PerhapsMan

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    I don't know for sure, but I think it is related to (or might be exactly) the bug that affects every character when they act out of knockback. Normally, it's impossible to act while you have knockback because you have hitstun that lasts exactly as long as your knockback, but in some cases you can end your hitstun early. Two cases that I can think of are when you edge-cancel something (like all of your examples) or when the game attempts a forced reset on knockdown with a move that has a lot of knockback and very little damage (from a stale shine or stale raptor boost, for example). In both cases, jumping out while you are "supposed to be" in hitstun will make you jump much higher than normal.

    @schmooblidon might be able to confirm but I think I remember reading in one of his posts (or it might have been Achilles) that your character's momentum is based on several values, and that your regular movement and your knockback are stored separately by the game. Normally you can't input any movement while you have knockback, but if you do, it can cause some wonky stuff (like your double jump causing you to die off the top, like Chillin does here). It seems like the movement from the knockback and from the movement option you choose get combined.

    If you tested it with Ness and Mewtwo and it doesn't work, that is pretty weird. Their double jump does feel different than Yoshi's and Peach's, but I don't know enough about Ness and Mewtwo to guess why it wouldn't work for them. I do think Yoshi's extended double jump is very closely related to what I described above for regular characters, though it might have some different properties because of Yoshi's jump. This comes to mind! I think it is worth noting that in most cases, the character double jumps extra high after being hit by a move that sends them upwards, and in the aMSa example, Yoshi double jumps extra low after being thrown by a throw that sends you downwards.
     
    #270 PerhapsMan, Apr 24, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2016
  31. schmooblidon

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    Tiny correction. This is rarely (if ever) the case, and there is always residual knockback velocity once hitstun ends. Assuming nothing interrupts the knockback, the residual would be quite low, but at higher knockback it becomes more apparent. This is why doublejumping asap can sometimes save your life, and why spacies side-bs dont reach as far when done immediately out of hitstun.

    But you have the right idea about what is happening in the video. Yoshi enters downbound (missed tech bounce), which actually removes all hitstun, but ofc you are locked in this state. Yoshi edgecancels it, becoming actionable and then doublejumps. The knockback velocity axis still has lots of residual knockback, and yoshi's doublejump adds velocity to his character velocity axis. Every frame they are added together to get his total velocity.

    The strange part is this isn't supposed to happen, and like Jag said doesn't happen with mew2 or ness, and doesn't work for the entire cast apart from yoshi.

    The proper way to determine knockback velocity in this scenario goes like this;

    Character is hit, determine knockback based on the attack and knockback multipliers (crouching = x0.66)
    (this calculated knockback velocity is applied on the frame you are hit, but you are in hitlag, so you do not move)
    If knockback > 80, put in a "Tumble-able" Damage state (there are quite a few and I dno how it determines which one to pick)

    First frame out of hitstun:
    - Calculate new velocity based on DI
    - Move character according to ASDI
    - Character hits the ground
    - Change state to DownBound
    - Remove all vertical knockback velocity

    That last operation is more of a safety operation, because DownBound is an action state that forces you to stay on the ground. This might be a bit confusing because you visually bounce, but your ECB is always attached to the ground, and you are technically grounded.

    But of course Melee being Melee, Yoshi skips that last operation. He keeps all his vertical knockback velocity, and it decays like normal as if he had been hit in the air. But only his horizontal velocity has any effect while in DownBound. Once he edgecancels it, it can now effect his position.

    I dunno how far this goes and whether there are other ways for Yoshi to keep velocity he shouldn't, or for the other cast members to keep some of theres. You never know with melee
     
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  32. PerhapsMan

    PerhapsMan
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    Interesting, I was sure I had seen other characters do strange things with their knockback after edge-cancelling like Yoshi does in Jag's video. I must be mistaken.

    Thanks for the information!
     
  33. DD151

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    So I think it's about time to do a thorough study of Sheik's chaingrab on Yoshi. A friend of mine (Sheik main obviously) says that Sheik can chaingrab Yoshi at 0% by standing in place regardless of Yoshi's DI. Some quick testing showed this to be half-true: With Sheik in controller port 1 and Yoshi in controller port 2, Yoshi can escape with full DI behind and a frame perfect double jump or N-air.
    • If Sheik inputs the soonest possible grab after D-throw, grab misses.
    • If Sheik delays grab 1 frame, grab misses.
    • If Sheik delays grab 2 frames, grab hits on frame 8. However, Yoshi escapes with a frame perfect double jump or N-air.
    With controller ports reversed, logic dictates that Sheik can regrab by delaying grab exactly 2 or 3 frames, because Yoshi has an extra frame of hitstun from D-throw and therefore can't input the double jump or N-air in time. However, I couldn't test this because for some reason 20XX 4.05 training mode won't let me transform the CPU Zelda into Sheik.

    The reason why Sheik can still regrab Yoshi without turning around on full DI behind is that during Yoshi's tumble animation, his giant head rotates into the center of Sheik's body 2 frames after her earliest possible grab after D-throw. Double jumping or using an aerial instantly moves Yoshi's head away from Sheik and thus escapes the grab.

    Obviously, Sheik can regrab Yoshi on full DI behind if she turns around. At 0% she doesn't have to be frame perfect for this.

    Now, I've heard people claim that Sheik's chaingrab only lasts until 40% or 50% on Yoshi, which seems false to me, but no one's ever tested this using frame advance.



    Here's some completely unrelated stuff about Egg Roll from ledge:

    If Yoshi falls from ledge by inputting back, he can fall for up to 4 frames before starting Egg Roll and still make it back onto the stage. Any more and he will not be able to land on the stage after starting Egg Roll.

    Assuming that Yoshi falls for 4 frames before Egg Roll starts, he can land on the stage as long as the player begins holding towards the stage on frame 20 of the Egg Roll (this is incidentally the first frame of 306). The player can be holding away for every frame before this one, but as long as he begins holding towards the stage on this frame, Yoshi will start rolling on stage instead of falling to his death.
     
    #273 DD151, Apr 26, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2016
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  34. PerhapsMan

    PerhapsMan
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    At 0%, Sheik still has to turn around to regrab Yoshi's 180° DI. Although Yoshi does have an extra frame of hitstun if he is the lower port, he also begins his animation on the proper 1st frame (as opposed to the 2nd frame if he is higher port, which is the cause of having less hitstun), so his head takes an extra frame to spin around for Sheik to grab. This allows him to double jump or Neutral Air his way out if she does not turn around on full behind DI.

    Here is the frame advantage that higher port Sheik gets from a fresh Down Throw.

    0-11% +10
    12-26% +11
    27-40% +12
    41-54% +13
    55-69% +14
    70-83% +15
    84-97% +16
    98-105% +17

    I did not test past 105%.
     
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  35. DD151

    DD151
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    That makes sense. So at all %s full DI behind forces Sheik to turn around for a regrab regardless of controller port. However, I feel like Sheik can turn around regrab any flavor of DI behind (thus rendering a slight/full behind DI mix-up useless) while stand in place regrab for no DI to DI away, so...

    It seems that with proper execution, the chaingrab is guaranteed until high %s, although I'd love for you to prove me wrong.
     
    #275 DD151, Apr 26, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2016
  36. Ssbm_Jag

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    Just one more thing I wanted to make a video on. I think it's pretty impractical, to the same extent using egg roll on the ledge is, but cool nonetheless.
     
  37. PerhapsMan

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    @DD151 When I looked at the chaingrab last year, this is the useful information I came up with. Everything assumes Yoshi has the lower port because I didn't want to use something that relies on having a certain port.

    At 0%:
    180° DI requires Sheik to turn around to regrab. If she does not turn around, you can Neutral Air or double jump to escape before she can grab you. About halfway between 135%° and 180%° DI (so halfway between the notches) is when Sheik starts to need to turn around.

    About halfway between 90° and 135%° DI (so halfway between the notches) requires Sheik to not turn around to regrab. If she turns around, you can double jump (but not attack) to escape before she can grab you.

    It is not extremely ambiguous for Sheik to determine which one she needs to do, but the mixup is there and at least requires execution on the part of the Sheik player (most of which think you can just regrab any DI without turning around). There wasn't much more that I found that was very useful, but I can look into it again. For now, I would say the best thing to do if you get grabbed at low % is just to DI offstage, because Sheik can't gimp Yoshi and she obviously can't continue the chaingrab.

    @Ssbm_Jag Your videos are welcome here. I have a neat (in my opinion) application of parry dashgrab in the misc section of the first post, if you are interested. It is not too hard to do.
     
  38. DD151

    DD151
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    She doesn't have to move forward very far to regrab Yoshi on full DI away though, so unless you're super close to the edge of the stage, I think trying to trick her is worth it.

    I did a little bit more research and discovered that if Yoshi is inputting 135 degrees DI, then 53% before an unstaled D-throw is the latest that Sheik can successfully regrab. At 54%, Yoshi can double jump out but cannot attempt to N-air, otherwise he will get grabbed. I can't rule out with complete certainty every possible setup for a regrab at 54%, but I did test a few obvious variants. Here are my observations:
    1. At 53%, Sheik can regrab if she times frame 0 of catch with frames 25 or 26 of dmgflytop.
    2. At 54%, no timing of grab works before Yoshi can jump out.
    3. At 54%, I tried having Sheik pivot grab, but no timing works before Yoshi can jump out.
    4. At 54%, I tried having Sheik dash 4 frames forward and pivot grab, which didn't work.
    I performed these tests with Sheik in port 1 and Yoshi in port 2; however, given that regrab potential is highly based off Yoshi's vertical position and the rotation of his body, I don't think that controller ports may make a difference, although I could certainly be wrong about that. I would also advise not to trust these findings 100% until someone else has corroborated them.

    There potentially could be a DI angle that results in a slightly earlier escape by having Yoshi launch at a more vertical trajectory (according to IKD it seems that 128 degrees is optimal), but it would make a difference of a couple of % at most.

    So until further information comes along, I suppose it's reasonable to conclude that Sheik's chaingrab on Yoshi ends at 54%.

    EDIT: I made a bad assumption previously. Sheik D-throw chaingrab on Yoshi stops working at 54% if Yoshi has a higher port # and 59% if Yoshi has a lower port #.

    Because the DamageFlyTop animation that Yoshi enters after Sheik's D-throw is quite long, Yoshi does not get a 20-frame buffer for a frame perfect double jump. Instead, you need a frame perfect input of X/Y for a double jump. Alternatively, you can take advantage of the smash input buffer and input a tap jump, which can be done up to 4 frames before Yoshi exits hitstun and still cause him to double jump. Therefore, I highly recommend using tap jump to escape chaingrabs and other throw combos.
     
    #278 DD151, Apr 27, 2016
    Last edited: May 23, 2016
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  39. Ssbm_Jag

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    @PerhapsMan I like the application you have against sheik. Like I said I'll never use the technique, because I think it's impractical. I'm very bad at DD grabbing and also Yoshi's dash grab out of a dash dance won't even work if you're really close to your opponent. I've seen Leffen make it work with Yoshi, but I always question whether other options would have been better. You don't see many Samus's dash dance grabbing that often, so I've always wondered if Yoshi should grab in neutral. I don't want to outright say Yoshi's dash dance or dash grab are bad in neutral, but I have yet to see aMSa make great use out of either.

    Speaking of Leffen, he talked about ASDI option selects a long time ago on these boards when discussing Marth. If you or anyone else haven't read the entire VMan thread, I'd encourage you all to read it b/c it has some interesting theories and Leffen being silly but profound as well. There was this one fight about egg lay being a good move and even Axe commented on the thread agreeing with VMan that egg lay can still be a good move when Leffen was saying the move is trash. I think the move works well against Sheik, Peach, Jigglypuff and Samus (and ofc Ice Climbers). I say Sheik because it beats CC-grab, shield, and f-tilt. Samus, Peach, and Puff because they get sent up really high and are forced to land and don't have options to outright beat Yoshi's u-air. Also egg lay has the potential to be a combo finisher on floaties. We have not seen this in competitive play, but on Puff, Peach, and probably Samus, things like tilts, nair, can combo into egg lay. I labbed this a long time ago. What makes egg lay hard to use in combos is it requires extremely good intuition on where the opponent will be sent after your attack. I don't think you can reliably react to an attack you do and then egg lay, you have to anticipate that egg lay will work.
     
  40. Cordless

    Cordless
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    I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but I feel like this warrants Egg Roll being added to the Ledge section as it's a pretty quick way to get back onto the stage from the ledge, even if only as a mixup. If done frame perfectly, Yoshi can land on stage with a (bad) hitbox with 3 frames of intangibility left (frame 35 after grabbing the ledge).

    Hitting side-b away from the stage while you're on the ledge and then holding in is a pretty safe way to make sure you don't SD doing it, though this causes yoshi to spin backwards in his egg.
     
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