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Some Yoshi Information

Discussion in 'Yoshi' started by PerhapsMan, Apr 3, 2014.

  1. yaaashua

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    Btw, In my experience:
    Yoshi's taunt can dodge samu's missiles,
    and also if you perform a dash you dodge a Falco's laser, I haver never tried if it works at every laser height.
     
  2. Purpletuce

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    Useless and only vs high lasers.
     
  3. Kimimaru

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    @PerhapsMan This isn't particularly relevant to the metagame, but what happens to the opponent when coming out of Yoshi's mouth during D-throw when there is no longer any ground to bounce off of? Some places I can think of where this would happen is Randall on Yoshi's Story, the Magic Carpets on Rainbow Ride, and possibly the Rotating Blocks on Yoshi's Island.
     
    #203 Kimimaru, Aug 31, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2015
  4. ChivalRuse

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    We tested this, and Peanutphobia is very upset, because the taunt does NOT dodge missiles.
     
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  5. PerhapsMan

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    @Kimimaru my computer is currently not working, but I will get back to you when I have the answer to this. In the meantime, my guess is that there are two possibilities:

    1) The opponent does not collide with the ground (as there is none) and instead is thrown downwards, at an angle that may be a spike. This is unlikely because the green ground collision flash that happens during the throw appears before the opponent goes into hitstun, so I think the ground collision is just part of the throw animation.

    2) The ground collision flash happens even though there is no surface off which to bounce, and the opponent bounces off of nothing and gets sent at the regular 80 degree angle. I think this is more likely.

    I will edit this post when I have the answer.

    Edit: done, answer posted below
     
    #205 PerhapsMan, Sep 3, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2015
  6. PsyRex

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    So idk if this is a good way of testing it, but I went to Mushroom Kingdom and stood Yoshi and Fox as close as they could get (teetering) to opposite sides of one of the "pits" I then grabbed Fox with Yoshi and used dthrow. Fox bounced up as normal. From what I could tell, the dthrow will always have the opponent hit the ground directly beneath where Yoshi is, so there will always be ground there to bounce off of anyway. Perhapsman can test ths further when he gets to his computer if he'd like.
     
  7. Cordless

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    Are you sure?

    http://imgur.com/a/iI4ek
     
  8. ChivalRuse

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    Is that with a charge missile or a homing missile?
     
  9. Cordless

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    That's with a charge missile, when Samus shoots a grounded one, it's at just the right hit to miss Yoshi's head off the z-axis during his taunt. I had Samus set to spam charge missiles in 20XX and you can actually dodge two of them in one taunt at that speed if you time it correctly.

    Since the homing missiles track downwards towards Yoshi's ECB, they won't miss unless you're within about a Battlefield platform's length away from Samus.
     
  10. ChivalRuse

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    I'll have to test this some more then. Not that it seems particularly useful. But it's kind of cool.
     
  11. kofinater

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    @PerhapsMan what frame of yoshi's dash grab hit standing sheik? Basically i want to know how much I lose with a well spaced dash grab vs a JC grab. Also, does yoshi get any more distance boost grabbing? Thanks.
     
  12. PerhapsMan

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    @Kimimaru Yoshi throws the opponent directly below him, so as long as there is ground under Yoshi, the opponent will bounce off that surface. If the surface under Yoshi disappears before the opponent is released in the throw, the throw gets interrupted and both characters go into their falling animation. If the surface disappears on the same frame that the opponent gets released, the ground bounce flash will appear, but both characters will go into the falling animation anyway. If it disappears after that point, the opponent will be thrown normally and Yoshi will go into the falling animation.

    @kofinater Yoshi can only grab standing Sheik with the last active frame (frame 16) of his dash grab. Boost grabbing unfortunately reduces the distance of Yoshi's dash grab slightly (very slightly) because Yoshi slows down during the initial frames of his dash attack.
     
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  13. Kimimaru

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    PerhapsMan, how is each knockback modifier applied before arriving at the total knockback value? For example, would the .95x modifier from V-Cancelling factor in before Yoshi's superarmor's subtracts 120 from the total knockback? I would imagine so, but I figured to ask for confirmation just to be sure.

    An interesting thing would be to test how much V-Cancelling improves Yoshi's superarmor. I have a feeling Falco's shine wouldn't break his armor with V-Cancelling, but I could be wrong.
     
    #213 Kimimaru, Oct 12, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2015
  14. PerhapsMan

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    My first guess was that V-cancelling would be applied before Yoshi's knockback armor. This would allow Yoshi to armor through Falco's shine at 0%.

    Knockback of Falco's shine at 0% on Yoshi: ~124
    After V-cancelling: ~118
    After Yoshi's armor: 0

    Actually testing it was kind of tricky, since Yoshi will air dodge if he tries to V-cancel during his double jump. To test it, I had Yoshi do a SH Bair, then double jump after, buffering the V-cancel during the last frame before Bair's IASA to prevent the V-cancel from activating an air dodge. Then I had Yoshi double jump and Falco shine on the first frame of Bair's IASA.

    Unfortunately, this still broke Yoshi's armor. This leads me to believe that (assuming I got the V-cancel) Yoshi's armor is applied before the V-cancel.

    Knockback of Falco's shine at 0% on Yoshi: ~124
    After Yoshi's armor: ~4
    After V-cancelling: ~4

    If I am wrong, and V-cancelling is applied before armor, then it is unfortunately still not very helpful for Yoshi's armor, because V-cancelling in most situations will interrupt Yoshi's armor with an air dodge.
     
    #214 PerhapsMan, Oct 12, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2015
  15. tauKhan

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    Both Achilles and Kadano think that V-cancelling reduces only velocity, and kb stays untouched. So it shouldn't affect the dj armor even in the case you manage to get both simultaneously. Btw, I'm impressed that you managed to find a way to both v-cancel and armor, I thought it was impossible.
     
    #215 tauKhan, Oct 12, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2015
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  16. Ssbm_Jag

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    @PerhapsMan

    You have:
    Fsmash
    Hitlag: 7
    Shieldstun: 10
    Advantage: -24

    Could you explain how this is -24 on shield?
    I would think that if you got a hit on frame 14 of the move, you would have them in shieldstun until frame 24, and Yoshi can then act on frame 44, meaning the move is -20 on shield. What am I doing wrong? D:
     
  17. PerhapsMan

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    @Ssbm_Jag You're right! I forgot to account for IASA. I'll double check the other moves. Thanks for catching that.
     
  18. tauKhan

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    Well, it's -19 if that's o.w. correct, since shieldstun then lasts to the end of frame 24, so 25th frame is the first actionable frame for the opponent. ...not that it really matters much though :).
     
  19. Ssbm_Jag

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    @tauKhan I believe you're right and that's even better.
     
  20. PerhapsMan

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    @tauKhan @Ssbm_Jag the first frame of shieldstun happens on the frame the move hits (similar to hitstun) so the opponent would be actionable on frame 24. All of the shieldstun values on this thread include that first hit frame.

    Frame 14: move hits - shieldstun frame 1
    ...some hitlag. Frame 14 is repeated for seven more frames.
    Frame 15: shieldstun frame 2
    Frame 16: shieldstun frame 3
    ...
    Frame 23: shieldstun frame 10

    You can see the debug frame counter use the numbers the way I have described.
     
  21. Ssbm_Jag

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    I'm sorry @PerhapsMan , but I think you are still wrong. I just tested it out in develop mode myself and it is -19 on shield.

    The order of the attack on shield experience is:
    attack connects, both opponents receive equal hitlag freeze (a value dependent on damage a move does, except for electricity move in which case the victim receives more), shieldstun+shield pushback while the attack is in attack cooldown/recovery lag, and then finally the opponent is free to act after shieldstun and the attacker is free after cooldown (who is free first depends on the move). I tested this out in 20xx with C. Falcon and held shield with yoshi after attacking as shield can always be buffered. It is 19 frames.

    Shieldstun does not occur the first frame a move hits, it occurs after hitlag freeze. It's this way in melee, brawl, and smash 4. Moves that deal high shieldstun (which are moves that deal a lot of damage) deal high shield pushback, and characters with low traction like Icies and Luigi suffer from high shield pushback. It's one reason ganon vs. icies is doable for ganon.

    If Falcon knee's Yoshi's shield, according to your logic, yoshi could come out of his shield the first frame after he is hit. I tested this just to make sure (although I already know this) and he cannot, because he experiences hitlag freeze like everyone else, he just doesn't experience the insane amount of shieldstun knee deals. Yoshi can seemigly shield DI during hitlag freeze, but that's it. He receives no shieldstun at the cost of not being able to jump OOS and is given the gift of parrying which keeps the opponent in hitlag freeze while receiving no hitlag freeze himself.

    If you or any other yoshis want to understand aMSa's frame traps, you must understand how shielding works. He and many other top players abuse frame traps that their characters have to mindgame their opponents. It will actually drive you insane when you realize how creative these players can be when you see them doing things, and you do the math yourself and realize they didn't just react, they knew. aMSa is probably the best example of this. I wouldn't be so open about Yoshi's frame traps though, because the Yoshi meta would heavily suffer if people knew. It might sound bad wanting to keep quiet, but if people aren't motivated to find this stuff out on their own they aren't going to be successful Yoshi players, and I'm not talking about you.

    That being said, people should definitely know the mechanics of Yoshi and how his hitbox's interact (like attacks on shield). Amsa said it was the first thing he looked into when taking ssbm seriously, and it makes sense. I'll try to upload an interesting finding similar to the green acceleration zone once I get my hands on recording equipment. lol
     
    #221 Ssbm_Jag, Nov 1, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2015
  22. PerhapsMan

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    I feel silly arguing about this, but Yoshi's Fsmash is not -19 on shield. It is -20. This gif should help illustrate that.


    [​IMG]


    On frame 24 of Yoshi's Fsmash, Mario begins his shield grab. The grab is zero-indexed so its count begins on frame 0.
    On frame 43, Mario has completed 20 frames of his grab. Because the count started at 0, this is displayed as frame 19 of the grab.
    On frame 44, Yoshi is actionable. This is the 21st frame that Mario has been actionable. Yoshi is -20.

    You may be right about the exact order of shieldstun and hitlag. But even if you are, my numbers are not wrong. Whether the first frame of shieldstun comes before or after hitlag, Yoshi's Fsmash has 7 frames of hitlag and 10 frames of shieldstun. The reason I think the first frame of shieldstun comes before hitlag is because there is no animation for hitlag. It is just a repetition of the same frame of an already existing animation. It makes the most sense to me that the game would play that frame and then repeat it for hitlag, rather than starting with the hitlag and playing the animation's "actual frame" afterwards. But like I said, it really makes no difference what the order is. I will probably ask someone more knowledgeable about the actual programming of melee when the hitlag starts and ends because I am curious.

    Yoshi's shield does in fact have just 1 frame of shieldstun, and this is why he can't drop his shield right after getting hit. If he didn't have this frame of shieldstun, there would be no way for the game to give him hitlag, because it would have no reference frame to copy for the hitlag frames or any "shield getting hit" animation to play during the hitlag. You can see his frame of shieldstun labelled by the game as "Guarddamage."


    [​IMG]


    Additionally, it is impossible to drop shield in 1 frame as Yoshi, even if you let go of the shield button far in advance. The game forces you to stay in shield for at least one frame before dropping shield, whether you are just going into shield or whether you are letting go of shield right after being hit (or during the hit).

    Finally, I am well aware of how shielding works. I am aware of frame traps, how players use them (as far as my understand of the game goes - I certainly can't read the minds of the pros) and what Yoshi's best frame traps are. In fact, in my spare time I have been working on a video tutorial specifically about Yoshi's shield pressure, of which frame traps are just one aspect. I have been playing this game for several years now, and have produced quite a bit of content and brought new information to Yoshi players, and I'd appreciate it if you did not address me like I have no idea what I am doing. There is no need for anyone to be hostile here.

    I disagree that anyone should hide any information they find about Yoshi, or any character in Melee. In fact, I really dislike any reliance on gimmicks or any intention to hide information, because I am more interested in playing Melee to its fullest extent than I am interested in winning, especially if that victory came about because my opponent had no reasonable way to prepare for my character. From a metagame standpoint, I do not think that sharing information about Yoshi's frame traps (or any other tool that Yoshi might have) seriously hinders Yoshi's ability to compete, so long as the information being shared is actually part of a well-thought out game plan and not a gimmick that relies on matchup inexperience.

    As an example, one simple Yoshi frame trap that beats shield grab (or any attack 6 frames out of shield or slower) is Neutral Air into Forward Tilt. The obvious counterplay to this frame trap is to wait and block the Forward Tilt, and then either punish or wavedash away depending on the Forward Tilt's spacing.

    It does not take long for a good opponent to realize that they have been frame trapped, or that they can beat the frame trap next time by waiting. A good enough opponent would be able to figure it out after just one use of the frame trap. This means that sharing this information online really has no impact at all on the high-level meta, other than helping more players get a little closer to that level. aMSa's opponents don't need my thread to figure out how to beat Neutral Air into Forward Tilt. But other people appreciate the information, whether it is to learn how to play Yoshi or how to play against him. I am not biased towards my own character's success and I'd much rather play an opponent who is prepared for my matchup than one who is not prepared. It's much more fun for me to play real Melee than to keep my opponents in the dark. If telling my opponent how to beat my options helps them play the matchup better, that benefits me just as much as it benefits them. I can't get better by using the same fraudulent tricks against an opponent who isn't capable of figuring out why my tricks are working.

    Knowing that waiting beats my Forward Tilt frame trap also doesn't make it useless. Instead it shifts the utility of the frame trap away from catching opponents who are eager to act out of shield and toward conditioning them to stay in shield longer. This leaves them open to extended pressure, crossups, and being grabbed. If the threat of my frame trap keeps my opponent in shield, I now have the option of mixing up a grab instead of a Forward Tilt. I'd much rather play that version of Melee than the one where I can just Forward Tilt my opponent every time and leave them frustrated that their shield grab isn't working.

    As for your point about motivation and work ethic, I agree with you! Melee is very difficult and none of us can improve without putting in a lot of effort ourselves. But I'd hate to see other players put in the same amount of hours in raw data collection that I have (the overwhelming majority of which is not posted here because it would be a big mess of numbers), when the useful information they could get from that time can be shared by all players. Rather than individually spending the time on figuring out how our character works on a mechanical level (which is the main purpose of this thread - just game mechanics, leaving interpretation and game plan open to the reader), that time could be channelled into actual game time, or discussion of strategies and match analysis. Any sufficiently driven player will be doing that work anyway, so helping them with the tedious bits won't hold them back, in my opinion. As for the rest of the players who aren't motivated enough to put the work in (and I say that without judgement), it's possible that they have different goals or that they simply don't have the time to throw themselves at the game with full devotion. Giving them these numbers can help them accomplish whatever goals they might have with this game.

    In response to the finding that you intend to share - I look forward to learning about it!

    My post turned out to be rather long, but I enjoyed this discussion and I hope you did too. The internet tends to hide any tone, so I will throw in this disclaimer that I don't mean to be confrontational or to argue. I just felt like expressing my opinion on the matters you brought up.
     
    #222 PerhapsMan, Nov 2, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2015
  23. Ssbm_Jag

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    I really hope you don't think I'm trying to argue with you. I respect your dedication to helping others. I really try to do the same in real life, but I'm afraid how very specific information can affect the meta. I am very active on the smash 4 boards and try to help people as well, but the really nitty gritty things I want dedicated players to find themselves, or at least ask questions before I help (if I even have the answer). Anyway, Yoshi's F-smash has 8 frames of hitlag freeze, not 7, and 9 frames of shieldstun, not 10. Shield pushback is received during shieldstun, it's why Mario slides for only 9 frames. Nevertheless, it is -20 on shield, like I said at the beginning (sort of ironic how your info and my math were both off by 1 :p). To give an example of hitlag: in smash 4 hitlag directly correlates with attack damage and shieldstun/shield pushback is based on a formula. The Wario Waft does 27 damage, so it has tons of hitlag. What you'll see happen if you Waft a shield is both characters frozen for a long time, then Wario will blast off as the opponent slides in shield during shieldstun.

    The order definitely does matter. Hitlag freeze is an arbitrary number that will not effect frame advantage. Shieldstun does. If you mix the two up you'll end up with the wrong calculation.


    Hitlag begins the frame the move connects. It is this animation that is repeated for the remainder of hitlag freeze. When shieldstun begins, the attacker continues in their animation and the shielder receives shieldstun. This is not a matter of programming knowledge, this has to do with the game's mechanics.

    You are right about this. I just tested it. This is cool to know because I've always heard Yoshi received no shieldstun, and never bothered to test it myself.

    I don't think you have no clue what you are doing. I'm sure you know about frame traps. Sorry if I came off as condescending. But if you are uncertain about shieldstun and hitlag freeze, I don't feel I am wrong to think there are some things you might not know. I know there is plenty I don't know. It took me so long just to understand shield mechanics myself, so I'm willing to type out here what I couldn't find anywhere else.

    This is where I agree and disagree. I would love to tell my friends the amazing things Yoshi can do and would ultimately be happier as well. From a competitive standpoint, when I train with them, I absolutely have to keep them in the dark. I'm not just talking nair to f-tilt which is probably not just used because of it's potential to stuff a shield grab, but it's good shield pushback as well as to space them out of grabbing range depending on the character's traction, grab range, and oos options depending on the way they are facing. The reason being is that when I go to a tournament, a good opponent is going to be playing against Yoshi, a character they hardly know, and they most definitely are in the dark and are going to be playing that way. I would be doing myself and my friend a disservice to play countermeta with each other when the whole outside world isn't playing that game as well. If your friends know basic Yoshi's tricks, it definitely will help them fight other yoshis, but they way they are playing against you will not be representative of the opponent you will face in tournament. If you don't use Yoshi's basic tricks against your friends, I feel like it could be not as good for them (ultimately if you're playing yoshi with your friends, you're probably both only benefitting), and I'm talking about the tricks you know that are far more complex than nair to f-tilt. I hope I explained this well, but it's fair if you disagree.

    Yoshi, in my opinion, has a neutral game slightly worse than Donkey Kong (mid tier-ish), yet has one of the greatest punish games in melee (top 5 in my opinion). He is just like my smash 4 main Wario in that he's not considered amazing because he wrecks the low tiers of the game in neutral (which he doesn't...seen by aMSa vs. Green Ranger and aMSa vs. DJNintendo which had some very close matches), he's considered amazing because if you push him to the limit he can stand up to punish the best characters in the game, something DK will never do :(. I'm not sure if you agree with this statement. I believe it is Yoshi's inherent design to be played this way, and not a neutral king like Fox and Falco. I feel if Yoshi's basic tricks, the advanced tricks I know aMSa uses, and the tricks I don't know and aMSa does or doesn't know gets out, Yoshi would fail unless further meta was developed to counter the counter-strategy. I use the word "tricks," but I have a belief they were intended for Yoshi to use, as some things work too perfectly for me to believe they are a matter of coincidence. I feel Yoshi mains having to change this endlessly would be impractical and harmful. My definition of an ideal Yoshi would be one that develops the strongest punish game, perfect tech skill, and respects and understands the tools other characters are currently using in neutral. Yes, fox mains aren't going to come here and look at nair to f-tilt, but if Yoshi mains start telling everyone the more interesting tricks, I feel the skill floor for playing Yoshi at a competitive level would be incredibly higher (which wouldn't be good imo).
     
    #223 Ssbm_Jag, Nov 2, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2015
  24. Ssbm_Jag

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    I could be wrong, but I think most attacks in the game have the hitlag being equal to half as much as the damage it deals. That's why N-air has 7 frames of Hitlag Freeze and F-smash has 8 frames of Hitlag, because each deal 14% and 16% respectively.
     
  25. tauKhan

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    @PerhapsMan Oh, you're were just using different definition for shieldstun then. I think shieldstun commonly refers to the inactionable period after hitlag ends, it's not strictly tied to the animations. Hitlag starts the frame the hit occurs. Note that you're (very often) actionable on the hit frame. The hitlag and shieldstun formulas yield values according to those definitions, in fact I just asked Kadano about it in some other thread since I was not sure.

    I think your definitions make sense though, since you can't even sdi on the hit frame. Also strangely enough, the published formula for hitstun actually refers to the length of the resulting hitstun animation, so the hit frame is effectively counted as the first hitstun frame there.

    Also, does yoshi have shieldstun in the sense that he can't do anything on the first frame after shield hitlag? Or is it 1 frame by your def, which would be 0 by the other.

    No, you can find the correct formula for hitlag here: http://smashboards.com/threads/tool...n-hitlag-shieldstun-calculation-v1-11.324878/
     
    #225 tauKhan, Nov 2, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2015
  26. Ssbm_Jag

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  27. PerhapsMan

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    I am aware of the difference between shieldstun and hitlag. When I said "the order doesn't matter," I should have been more clear, because what I meant was that it didn't matter whether you call that first hit frame hitlag or shieldstun as long as you know when each character is actionable. I am also aware that everyone else counts the initial hit frame as part of hitlag instead of shieldstun, and adjust my frame advantages accordingly. You'll notice that, aside from the mistake of forgetting IASA frames for two of Yoshi's smash attacks (which is completely my fault), my frame advantages on block are all right. I didn't have the wrong calculation because I account for that 1 frame difference. I also tested all of the moves in-game to make sure my frame advantages were not wrong when I posted them.

    I mentioned programming because I am interested in how the game actually handles the calculation of all these things and how it determines what animation to play during hitlag. What I mean by this is that the attacker, let's say hitting with a move that hits on frame 10, is going to play the tenth frame of that animation whether or not the move connects. It does not make sense to me that this 10th frame of the attack would be replaced by a hitlag animation that looks identical but has extra frames to freeze the character in place. Rather it makes more sense to me that the game would continue this animation to the 10th frame regardless of whether a hit takes place, and, upon recognizing that a hit is going to take place, would repeat this 10th frame after it has been played once. As taukhan said, the published hitstun formula matches this for hitstun animations, which include the initial hit frame as part of the hitstun (not hitlag), which is then repeated as hitlag, and I think the game handles hitlag + shieldstun in the same way. This whole thing is a matter of semantics. We're both in agreement that there are a certain number of frames of shieldstun after hitlag, and we both have the same amount. We're also both agreeing that the initial hit frame is there and that it doesn't effect frame advantage, but we're calling it two different things. That's not a matter of game mechanics, that's a matter of programming, which is my own personal interest that isn't relevant to this thread or Yoshi's frame advantages on block, which is why I said I would ask someone who understands the game's programming (such as Achilles) to satisfy my own curiosity.

    This is a fair point, but I feel like it only matters against opponents who are unable to adapt and who will only be your opponent once. If I practise all of my gimmicks against my local smash players, and then play someone else in tournament, those gimmicks will surely catch this new opponent off guard, and may net me the win. But that opponent will also surely recognize that they need to work on the matchup, especially if they feel like they lost to gimmicks. The next time I play that opponent, they will have gone home, watched plenty of Yoshi matches and thought about the matchup, and if they had the chance, played with a local Yoshi, who would likely be using the same kind of gimmicks that I did. The second set we play in tournament will not go as well for me, and I will probably lose to their campy Fox or a Sheik who does nothing but bait out my gimmicks and punish them with simple tools that require real fundamentals to beat.

    In a different universe I could have been telling my local smashers about my gimmicks, and how they should beat them. And I'd certainly practise those gimmicks anyway, because I need to know when my opponent is ready for them and what counterplay exists to them, and I'd also like to see my local smashers have the chance to practise dealing with these gimmicks. When they have their counterplay ready, it forces me to play with fundamentals and more solid tools (which may or may not exist for Yoshi, depending on how you view the character) which will help me improve as a player in the long run. Now flash forward to that new opponent I am playing in tournament. The first set we play, I will have practised my gimmicks and can use them if I want, but I also have the tools that are not so easily countered by a little matchup experience. My opponent will go home and work on the matchup, and when he comes back, he'll have countered my gimmicks easily, but my whole toolset is not gone. I still have the tools that do not rely on matchup inexperience to be useful.

    I feel this really where we disagree. The crux of my argument depends on the belief that Yoshi does in fact have some set of tools that are fundamentally good, and are still useful when the fog of matchup inexperience is gone. It depends on the belief that Yoshi is capable of developing counterplay to his opponent's counterplay, and that he can keep up with the meta. It seems like you don't belive this is true (past a certain point), and that were everyone given a real solid understanding of how Yoshi works, the character would quickly lose steam and fall back to the bottom of the tier list (or maybe settle in the middle, but still be clearly unviable). If you are right, I don't want to play Yoshi.

    I am of the opinion that Yoshi has real potential to compete with the top tiers in the neutral game. I believe that the character is still not explored to any reasonable point, and that his limits are not close to being reached. As it stands now, the character has an awful neutral game, just like you said. He has barely any ground game and most Yoshi players are unable to fight for space, and spend most of their time abusing platform movement and fishing for random hits that lose horribly to anyone who knows when to expect them. On the ground, they might land a parry against a hasty opponent, but this stops working once that opponent realizes how much of a read you need to sit there and wait for your opponent to fall into your parry. For a long time I thought Yoshi's neutral game was limited to these kinds of tactics, but I do not believe this any more. Yoshi's neutral game has real potential, especially on the ground, and it is one where he has offensive (but non-committal) pressure, can actively influence his opponent's attack timings, uses the threat of his long-range grounded attacks to set up parries which are proactive rather than a defensive "Hail Mary" and can be safe against retreating or blocking without having to read either of those. He is capable of taking space without extreme commitments and can corner opponents when he understands how to use his movement properly. I am not in the majority. Most people definitely agree with you, and I did too. But as we both know, most people out there don't really have a solid grasp on what Yoshi can actually do, aside from the gimmicky playstyles that us low tier mains tend to have.

    If it ever becomes clear to me that my character really is limited to strategies that rely on matchup inexperience, I would immediately change characters and never look back. I have no attachment to Yoshi as a video game character, and I play him only because I find his playstyle to be interesting. As a competitor, I wouldn't want to play any character I believed was so limited in the way you described, and as a Melee enthusiast I wouldn't have very much fun if I couldn't work with the fundamental fighting game tools that Melee has. Yoshi lets me control space, manage threats and baits with my movement, limit options and control the pace of the match, and interact with my opponent meaningfully and in ways that can't be hard countered by simple and overly-effective strategies. If I didn't feel that way, I would be playing another character.

    I should probably put this disclaimer in case a straw man has appeared in my post. If you feel that I described your opinions on Yoshi in a way that was unfair or inaccurate, or that I reduced your post to "Yoshi is all gimmicks," I didn't mean to represent (and didn't interpret) your post that way. I used the words gimmick or trick a lot because they helped me describe the part of the Yoshi meta that really does rely on matchup inexperience, but I am sure you don't feel that Yoshi is literally nothing but gimmicks. Maybe a more accurate way to describe your opinion is that Yoshi can't keep up with the constant meta development that the top tiers would produce if all players were aware of how Yoshi works. This is really the only thing with which I disagree, and I'd drop Yoshi if I didn't disagree with it. I also don't intend to change your mind or convince you of anything. I'm just enjoying the discussion you brought up and feel like defending my point of view.

    Yeah, my definition is tied to the animation itself, which makes sense to me due to the fact that the attack animation being played has no difference between a hit or a whiff, other than the fact that the hit frame is played for longer. I understand that the formulas are designed without this in mind, and I don't see any problem with that considering the end result is the same frame advantage for anyone using those formulas.

    When you say "actionable on the hit frame," I am guessing you mean that it is possible to (for example) input an out of shield option on the frame before being hit, and have that option "start" but be interrupted by the hit animation when the hit frame is actually rendered. I don't see how this would suggest that the hit frame is hitlag, but if you have an answer I'd love to hear it. I would think the game polls inputs, then determines each player state before checking to see if either player got hit. If this is true, then you would be actionable on the hit frame whether or not the game considered it to be hitstun/shieldstun or hitlag.

    The fact that you can't SDI on the hit frame and that hitstun does start on the hit frame make me believe that this frame is shieldstun rather than hitlag, as well as the "attacker perspective" point I made earlier. As it stands, it's just a matter of the name and I mostly care because I'd like to know how the game's programming actually handles hitlag.

    He is actionable on the first frame after hitlag. The hit frame is called Guarddamage.
     
    #227 PerhapsMan, Nov 2, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2015
  28. Ssbm_Jag

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    I didn't really feel like you misrepresented my point. I think we just disagree on Yoshi's fundamental design and purpose (I don't know if you believe yoshi was meant to be played competitively, but I do). I'm not promoting just any gimmicks, just the ones you'll see from top level Yoshis, and when those stop working, find new ones. From what I've seen, aMSa still gets away with the same things on many players that he's gotten since he's first gotten into the national scene. I totally support trying to make Yoshi's neutral game better, but it always seems to boil down to baits and deception on Yoshi's part which eventually lead to insane combos (which I think can be optimized more) or edge-guards. One reason I love playing Yoshi is that I can feel like I defeated my opponent both physically and mentally, and I'll never get that from any other character.
     
    #228 Ssbm_Jag, Nov 2, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2015
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  29. tauKhan

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    I just pointed out to others where the 1 frame difference in the frame advantage came from in my previous post(I'm sure you knew it though, maybe it was pointless :)). Of course it doesn't matter which definition you use as long as the readers know it. However if you use one that differs from the norm, there's a high risk for misunderstandings, which was what happened above.

    I found some evidence that shieldstun in particular could be very closely related to the Guarddamage animation: http://smashboards.com/threads/official-ask-anyone-frame-things-thread.313889/page-19#post-18521148

    However that doesn't mean that our definition of shieldstun has to rely on the animation. For example, hitstun is a very similar concept, so it makes sense to define hitstun the same way as we define shieldstun. But hitstun isn't tied with whatever animation the victim is put into when he's hit, not in all cases at least. Here's a few instances where this is clear:

    1) In some air -> ground conversions, hitstun animation changes, but the amount of hitstun left is preserved.
    2) When a char is jab reset, both the hitstun animation (DownDamage), and the information of how much hitstun the hit would normally inflict matter. The char becomes actionable right after DownDamage regardless of the "normal hitstun", but he's forced to choose GU action after "normal hitstun" runs out.
    3) If a char is put into grounded hitstun animation that is longer than the hitstun inflicted, the whole animation plays out, but the char can interrupt the animation as soon as the hitstun runs out.

    Yeah, to my understanding, the processing of a frame goes roughly like this:
    1) Actions are performed according to inputs.
    2) Velocity values are updated
    3) The characters move. Environment collisions, ledge grabs and such are checked.
    4) Potential grabs are resolved
    5) Potential hits are resolved

    It doesn't necessarily suggest that the frame should be part of hitlag, that's actually kind of arbitrary decision imo. My point was that the hit frame is very different from the shieldstun frames after hitlag in this way, so from that point of view it makes sense to exclude the hit frame from shieldstun. I don't actually like to include the hit frame in hitlag either. I myself would separate the hit frame from both, i.e. there would be hit, followed by hitlag, and shieldstun afterwards.
     
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  30. PerhapsMan

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    That is a very good point. I will probably re-word the OP to more closely match how everyone else thinks of hitlag/shieldstun. I shouldn't have assumed that it would make sense without any explanation.

    This is all really interesting stuff, thanks. Your explanation of a frame makes sense and I agree with it.

    That's a neat way of thinking of the hit frame. I think that makes a lot of sense from both the perspectives of actually playing the game and understanding what's going on behind the scenes.
     
    #230 PerhapsMan, Nov 3, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
  31. Ssbm_Jag

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    @PerhapsMan Strong Nair puts Fox into tumble as early as 23, not 24. Just thought I'd let you know.
     
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  32. ABAP Kidney

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    Out of curiosity to everyone who is in here, has anyone really taken the time to get the exact data for Sheik's chain grab? When I am being chaingrabbed I find that I can sometimes get out of it through nair, sometimes by double jumping out as quickly as possible, double jump wavelanding on the nearest platform, etc. It seems like Sheik mains are equally confused about this whole thing, many of them arguing it works, or doesn't work, or works but is really difficult to time... The list goes on. While I don't think the chain grab is really the most relevant thing in the Sheik matchup (does anyone any more?), it's certainly something that's worth discussing, and I don't have the 20xx knowledge or the chain grab knowledge to do any such checks myself.
     
  33. PerhapsMan

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    I am not sure what % it stops working, but you want to mix up between full DI behind + Nair and slight DI behind + double jump. Sheik has to turn around to regrab on full behind DI and must not turn around to regrab slight behind DI. You can easily option select ASDI using the C-stick in case Sheik chooses a tilt instead of regrab, and for slight DI + double jump you can easily option select a SDI attempt. These DI mixups give you a 50/50 at low % that forces Sheik to be nearly frame perfect. I am not sure when regrab is no longer an option for Sheik but it's not as high as most people think when they imagine a "Sheik vs low tier" chaingrab.

    Edit: also use a higher port number than your opponent when you can, because this makes the chaingrab harder for Sheik.
     
    #233 PerhapsMan, Nov 22, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2015
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  34. ABAP Kidney

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    Okay so I feel really stupid about this but I don't actually know how slight DI works :/
     
  35. PerhapsMan

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    Just hold up and slightly behind Sheik.

    If the direction Sheik is facing is 0 degrees, and the opposite direction (behind her) is 180 degrees, you want to mix up between choosing 180 degrees and a little bit less than 135 degrees.
     
  36. ABAP Kidney

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    Thanks! I'll try it all out. I didn't realize that whether to nair or jump away was dependent on the DI I chose to go, this makes a pretty big difference.
     
  37. ilikcereal101

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    How does one get the master debug menu on the computer or is it even possible because it seems pretty cook to mess around on.
     
  38. Sieghart

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  39. ilikcereal101

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    I have it but i see people with the frames and the lights for invincibility and stuff and I can't find that anywhere
     
  40. flieskiller

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    How does that help Yoshi if Yoshi having priority means she has a +1 frame compared to her having the port priority?
     

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