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Some Yoshi Information

Discussion in 'Yoshi' started by PerhapsMan, Apr 3, 2014.

  1. DD151

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    I've hypothesized using Egg Roll from ledge as a convoluted edgeguard against fastfallers who recover onto the stage, but it's too niche and there are more important things to investigate.
     
  2. PerhapsMan

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    I'll add it to the OP when I get a chance. I haven't looked into the frame data because I don't think it is nearly as good as some of Yoshi's other ledge options but I think it still deserves to be figured out.
     
  3. Ssbm_Jag

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXms0Pia1FM @6:29 is the only time I can really cite ledge egg roll used competitively, and I think this might be on accident. I think* I've seen V3ctorman purposely use it back on some of his old videos, but can't confirm. Egg roll from ledge is extremely bad in melee (decent in project m), but good in the air as the move triggers a frame 1 jump. I've felt this jump could help break out of combos, but from testing I've found it to be impractical. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnWg3tAeJhs I feel this video pretty much explains why reverse egg roll from ledge works. I don't think it's meant to be a ledge option, it's most likely meant to help Yoshi recover after a wall tech.
     
  4. DD151

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXms0Pia1FM#t=6m58s

    6:58 shows what I meant by using Egg Roll as a convoluted edgeguard; you can hit a fastfaller in their recovery landing lag and force them into knockdown (either on the ground or on a side platform) while Yoshi exits Egg Roll. I haven't researched the frame data to figure out whether a frame advantage exists, but this is the only real applicable use of Egg Roll from ledge that I can envision.
     
    #284 DD151, May 3, 2016
    Last edited: May 3, 2016
  5. dvatch

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    egg roll from ledge can be good if the opponent is hitting your ece with a grounded move like uptilt. it will often clank and allow you to run away or counterattack
     
  6. DD151

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    I tested SoPo D-throw chaingrab on Yoshi. Unfortunately, this is a chaingrab that you can't really be tricky with because the launch point for Popo's D-throw is in front of him, so he can stand in place regrab full DI behind, walk forward regrab no DI, and dash forward regrab full DI away. At no point does Popo have to turn around to regrab any DI, so there's no opportunity for ambiguity.

    The earliest that I could get a successful escape was 39% before an unstaled D-throw. Again, 135 degrees DI is optimal because it maximizes the vertical height of the launch trajectory (and 128 degrees DI is even more optimal but hard to get precisely). Port priority also does not matter, as the part of Yoshi that gets grabbed is once again his eyes/nose hurtbox during tumble, so the chaingrab is more animation-dependent than it is hitstun-dependent. Double jumping escapes the chaingrab but using N-air can cause Yoshi to get regrabbed.

    This trajectory is also apparently the trickiest for Popo to regrab because it requires that he walk forwards a few frames but not to walk forward for too much.

    So I suppose against ICs, try to get to 39% as safely as possible so that SoPo can't chaingrab you until Nana is ready for a wobble, lol.

    EDIT: I made a bad assumption previously. SoPo D-throw chaingrab on Yoshi stops working at 39% if Yoshi has a higher port # and 44% if Yoshi has a lower port #.
     
    #286 DD151, May 4, 2016
    Last edited: May 19, 2016
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  7. dvatch

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    random thing to add to dthrow follow ups: If yoshi is standing on an edge and downthrows game and watch, g&w will pop up in the air allowing yoshi to true combo into down b if they dont di. It does 20 damage and works until 87%. On battlefield, FoD, FD, and dreamlands left edge it works til 54% and it doesnt work on the right edge. On pokemon, it works on the right edge til 54% and on the left edge til 17%. It works on both sides of yoshis to 87%. NOW! Go forth and beat those pesky g&ws with this really easy and useful tech!
     
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  8. DD151

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    Awhile ago I asked @PerhapsMan to characterize a couple of guaranteed platform techchases, which unfortunately require enough of a frame advantage to execute. Against fast-fallers this frame advantage wasn't large enough to get with easy setups such as D-throw or U-throw. I therefore wondered what is the next best option in these scenarios.

    It doesn't seem like there are any guaranteed follow-ups that require Yoshi to land on the platform with an aerial to cover 3/4 tech options and use a grounded move to cover the last tech option. Everything that I thought of was far too slow. The only possibility worth considering is the SH U-air ECB distortion trick on Yoshi's (mentioned in the OP), which is still too slow against spacies after U-throw at 30% but may work at higher %s.

    Next I thought of using a single attack to cover the entire platform. I think that Yoshi's full jump B-air and N-air can cover any entire tournament-legal platform (except for some PS transformations) given enough aerial drift - I didn't test this too rigorously. N-air can strong hit 3/4 tech options and weak hit the last tech option. The problem with these choices is that it's hard for them to lead into things consistently.

    The final obvious flowchart choice is to stay below the platform and cover techs on reaction using DJC U-air. The timing to do so when Yoshi is actionable is as such:
    • Covering landing spot: 5 frames jumpsquat > 5 frames full jump > 1 frame DJ > U-air (comes out frame 5)
    • Covering last tech option: 5 frames jumpsquat > 7 frames full jump > 5 frames reverse DJ > U-air (comes out frame 5)
    Delay the DJ by 2 frames on DL because of higher side platforms. These timings get at least half of the U-air hitbox above the platform for maximum horizontal coverage. Covering the last tech option may require more time spent in the reverse DJ for more horizontal distance prior to using U-air because again, I didn't test this too rigorously.

    These timings work against spacies on BF after U-throw at 30% but not against C. Falcon because Yoshi has too much throw cooldown.

    I'd like your thoughts on this and maybe further research + gif into the U-air reaction tech chase if possible.
     
    #288 DD151, May 5, 2016
    Last edited: May 5, 2016
  9. Ssbm_Jag

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    Reaction tech chase u-air is the best way to go when you throw fast fallers onto a platform at relevant combo percents. Like you said, it's obvious. It's so simple, and it's why I love it. At higher percents you should go for the the riskier f-air tech chases that can lead to a kill.

    I have seen aMSa use hard n-air to cover 3/4 and then when the fox tech rolled away, he landed and then went for a dash grab. N-air has very little lag and the grab seemed to barely not be guaranteed, but it worked. Your suggestion with the n-air to cover all options sounds good, but sounds hard to execute and requires Yoshi to be at a certain position as well as the fast faller to tech in the right spot.

    D-air can probably be useful when the opponent has to tech right in the middle of a platform, but when they must tech on the sides it might not be as good. This is just a feeling I've had for a while but haven't used much in my own game.

    Egg Toss is also a really good tech chasing tool that no one talks about lol.
     
  10. DD151

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    N-air to dash grab is not even close to guaranteed at %s where F-air to F-tilt/D-smash is also not guaranteed. It does work in theory given enough frame advantage, although it's even more frame tight than F-air to F-tilt/D-smash and harder to execute because of the smash turn. Ultimately the problem with all tech coverage options above the platform is that Yoshi has to jump on the platform, which takes awhile because of him not being a fast-faller.

    I don't like D-air in this circumstance. It's negative on hit until pretty high %s and it can also be SDI'd out of.

    Egg Toss is a neat idea but again there's the problem of frame advantage. While the egg explosion can potentially cover 3/4 tech options, the cooldown from Egg Toss makes it impossible to cover the last option with something else. In order to get something out of Egg Toss tech chase, you would need even more frame advantage than what's required for F-air to F-tilt/D-smash.
     
  11. Ssbm_Jag

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    By negative on hit do you mean on shield? If so then I wouldn't be too worried as you can platform cancel the move or just cross them up. SDI isn't a big deal at this stage of the meta, for Yoshi's d-air that is. I've never once in my life seen the move SDI'd out of. I personally think the move is fine to use around 30-ish percent or later seeing that it does 40+ damage, combos into D-smash (+14 damage) or u-tilt+nair/u-air (+24).

    My n-air suggestion probably won't work in the scenario you suggested. I forgot to mention that it was just something I've seen done, but not out of a throw, so my bad.

    By egg toss tech chase, I imagined the egg covering 3/4 options and maybe it arcing over to cover the tech roll away, making it 4/4. I don't know the frame data behind it perfectly, but I use and I've seen others use it as well. This isn't my idea, I'm pretty sure aMSa/others do this. I'm probably the first to talk about it on the boards tho lol. Testing it out, you can cover 4/4 options with egg toss, if positioned right, out of a throw. This being said it would not be beneficial until tumble percents, also I think it's impractical unless given the right positioning.

    This all being said, my perspective leads me to believe that covering 4/4 options isn't always optimal. I'll keep thinking about the idea of covering every option out of a throw, but for now I think reaction u-air tech chasing is easily the most optimal thing to do at most percents and just so happens to cover 4/4. That being said, if I'm fighting a Falco and down on stocks, and want to cheese him at low percents, a f-air might be in order. Platform tech chasing is one of the few scenario's where Yoshi can play low risk-high reward (in my opinion), and I feel d-air was designed to be a platform tech chasing punish tool more-so than an edge-guard, landing tool, etc. I see it done that way occasionally in 64 matches. When aMSa respawns from a platform with true invincibility, he almost always goes for a f-air. He can't always play that reckless, but there's no risk involved for missing. I feel like because the risk of missing d-air or any other 3/4 option is minimal to none, they should be taken advantage of as often if not more than the 4/4 options. I'm not saying that you're claiming covering 4/4 is optimal, I just wanted to state my opinion and why I feel this way.
     
  12. DD151

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    No, I mean that it's negative on hit either technically or practically. Against Peach/Shiek it doesn't become +0 on hit until 29% post-hit assuming that you land on the frame soonest after a hit. It doesn't combo into D-smash until 67% post-hit, and a frame-perfect turnaround D-smash isn't guaranteed until 79% post-hit. It's super easy to buffer shield but not easy at all to do 1 or 2 frame perfect inputs.

    It's really super easy to SDI; the target is in near-constant hitlag and the attack can be seen coming from a mile away because of the 18 frame start-up. Throw in ASDI and any competent player should be able to escape after a few hits and get a free punish. It's also terrible at covering the techroll to the edge of a platform because the attack pushes them off after a couple of hits + ASDI.
     
    #292 DD151, May 6, 2016
    Last edited: May 6, 2016
  13. Ssbm_Jag

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    For Peach, it's a little less relevant, as she very rarely will have to tech platforms against Yoshi. As for Fox and Falco who weigh less and have relevant falling speed, 60% or so post hit isn't bad at all, since the move does at minimum 20-50% if done right. The only gripe I have with the move is its execution difficulty.

    I've never seen a player properly SDI Yoshi's B-air or D-air in personal experience or in competitive play. Many people don't even DI b-air properly when the move is in theory easy to DI due to the move's duration. I've seen B-air ASDI'd downwards and D-air Shield DI'd (but that's because the move has ridiculous shield pushback, so it may not even be shield DI), but that's it. I think "in theory" D-air is very flawed, but in practice it is perfectly fine when used correctly. If it means anything, in a video, Hungrybox says that on a missed rest, aMSa would d-air him and rack on 40%.This wouldn't happen if Hbox was just ready to SDI it easily. I will admit that on anticipation, the move could be readily SDI'd, but I don't think anyone will anticipate nor react with SDI unless they have experienced the move multiple times.

     
  14. DD151

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    In a world where players consistently SDI Fox's first hit U-air, which has only 4 hitlag frames, I don't buy your argument that just because the players whom you've played have never (A)SDI'd out of Yoshi's D-air, then Yoshi's D-air is a good choice for a tech punish.

    If we're citing personal experience, my play group (a bunch of low-mid level players at best) escape a platform D-air easily every time. Just hold away.
     
    #294 DD151, May 6, 2016
    Last edited: May 6, 2016
  15. Ssbm_Jag

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    If there are several examples out there where this move has failed, please show me. I wouldn't want to discredit one of Yoshi's attacks unless I'm absolutely sure it won't work. I've said "don't use egg roll on the ledge," because it's very high risk-low reward. This, as I see it, is the opposite. I'm not saying the move has no weaknesses in a vaccuum, which your responses seem to frame my argument to say so. I'm saying I think* in practice people can use it, as people hardly SDI things like Peach's/Pikachu's D-smash or Yoshi's B-air correctly. I understand that in theory the move is easier to SDI. Fox's U-air is an extreme case and is not comparable in my opinion.The move is more common and people, I'd argue, are more competent of the move.

    I'm not claiming it to be good when I even said I don't use it that often. I suggested it as an option to cover someone teching mid-platform as a potential low risk-high reward option. Now, I'm just defending it from being called outright bad solely because it has theoretical flaws and little evidence (as far as I know) of it being impractical. The only thing I had in mind was the statement Hungrybox made that D-air works against him, so that is really all I have to go on. I've seen a few non-platform cases with aMSa using d-air and it working, so I always had hope it could work on a platform.

    I'd completely agree it is bad if people do SDI out. If the move is easily SDI'd out of in practice and gives the opponent potential to punish (which means they probably weren't put into tumble), it becomes, at worst, high risk-high reward with the option of drifting to cover expected SDI. I'll leave it at that, and won't claim that it is good or bad.
     
    #295 Ssbm_Jag, May 6, 2016
    Last edited: May 6, 2016
  16. DD151

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    Okay. Here's a simple test that definitively shows how bad/impractical Yoshi's D-air is.

    Select Yoshi and Falco and go to Pokemon Stadium. Stand Falco in the center of a platform and position Yoshi directly beneath. Make Falco taunt and hold left/right, then have Yoshi do a full jump D-air to hit Falco in the middle of his taunt. Falco should slide off the platform after taking 4, maybe 5 hits max.

    This is Falco escaping the D-air only with DI and ASDI; by having him taunt and hold left/right, this prevents any SDI inputs. SDI allows Falco to get out even faster, but the takeaway here is that escaping Yoshi's D-air with modest damage and no potential follow-ups is as simple as holding left/right on the control stick.
     
  17. PerhapsMan

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    @DD151 Here's what I've got.

    At first I was apprehensive of using full jump, but it is definitely more useful to get the higher Up Air for easier coverage than it is to get the lower Up Air for better frame advantage.

    After Up Throw, you have to start your jump pretty soon to be able to cover all options, but that gets easier when the opponent's % is higher. Like you said, it does not work on Captain Falcon at 30%, unfortunately. For Falco, it is surprisingly easier. His heavier weight does slow Yoshi down a bit, but his lower gravity gives you more time (2 extra frames at 30% with 0° DI) to start your jump.

    Following the DI is very easy. All you have to do is jump towards the opponent's landing spot, and you don't need any ground to air momentum.

    The timing you suggested of 5 frames jumpsquat + 5 frames full jump + 1 frame double jump + 5 frames Up Air works, but only to cover tech in place and no tech. For covering the techroll to the opposite side of the platform, Yoshi needs to wait about 10 frames in his double jump before he can Up Air. The "bad techroll" to the close side of the platform requires you to be a bit higher or closer to the target, so the timing for covering everything on reaction is 8 airborne frames minimum for the full jump. This is assuming a few things:

    1) that your opponent picks the "bad option" of techrolling to the closest edge of the platform,
    2) that you don't react to the techroll itself, but only to the fact that the opponent is still where they landed (ie. 3 options vs the techroll to the other side),
    3) and that you double jump in place.

    If they choose this tech option and you don't want to spend the extra frames in the air, you need to specifically react to the techroll, which is reasonable of course.



    Like I said, frame advantage after the Up Air is negligible. You can land a full jump Up Air after the DJC Up Air to continue the combo on one of the platforms, and there are other good options of course. Here are two examples of this. The second example involves Fox SDIing and DIing both Up Airs away, so this techchasing method should be pretty solid.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    At 30% before the Up Throw, it is possible for the target to ASDI down and instantly land on the platform after the Up Air. I only tested for Fox, and since he has the highest gravity, he might be the only character who can do this at 30%. However, they will be locked out of their tech unless they both techroll and get the 2 frame window of teching a ground surface at the end of hitlag. If they do ASDI down, whether or not they tech, you can still instant Up Air on reaction after your DJC Up Air.
     
    #297 PerhapsMan, May 8, 2016
    Last edited: May 8, 2016
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  18. dvatch

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    question 1: How far away from the stage can yoshi end his air dodge and still grab the ledge?
    question 2: At what point in yoshi's double jump should an air dodge be used to get the most height?
     
  19. DD151

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    @PerhapsMan Instead of 8 frames full jump to cover "bad" techroll, what about 1 frame dash?

    Also, after the first U-air, is there enough frame advantage to F-air > F-tilt/D-smash instead of full jump U-air?

    IIRC ability to ASDI down is either independent of or very slightly dependent on target gravity, since the magnitude of ASDI down has to exceed vertical velocity on the first frame of knockback. It's probably more dependent on target weight since knockback is dependent on weight.
     
    #299 DD151, May 8, 2016
    Last edited: May 8, 2016
  20. PerhapsMan

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    Yes, that works, at least for the starting position Yoshi has in the examples in my previous post.

    Absolutely.

    You are probably right about that. I am not sure why I forgot to think about character weight, but in any case ASDI down does not seem to be much of a problem. It might be possible to DI horizontally and C-stick down, but I can't test that in vanilla debug mode because the C-stick is used for the camera. Even if that works, it is % dependent anyway.

    @dvatch The air dodge question is a little complicated but I will answer it when I get the chance.

    Yoshi's double jump stops moving upwards on or around the 54th frame, so if you want the most height, I would think you should air dodge on frame 54 of your double jump.
     
    #300 PerhapsMan, May 8, 2016
    Last edited: May 8, 2016
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  21. DD151

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    The OP says this under Falco matchup-specific:

    Kadano also states that the 3rd lowest laser height is equivalent to standing laser, and I know for a fact that standing lasers hit crouching Yoshi, therefore Yoshi and Marth have the same crouch profile.

    Incidentally, @Mugifi posted an image on r/ssbm of Yoshi dodging a Falco laser during landingfallspecial lag from a wavedash. I tested this and confirmed that Yoshi can dodge a standing laser during all of jumpsquat and the first 6 frames of landingfallspecial. So technically Yoshi can dodge most laser heights by doing a perfect wavedash.
     
    #301 DD151, May 9, 2016
    Last edited: May 9, 2016
  22. PerhapsMan

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    When I tested that stuff, I had Marth crouch behind Yoshi and made Falco shoot various laser heights, and there was at least one height that passed over Yoshi but hit Marth right after. It's possible that it might vary depending on what part of the crouch animation each character is in, but my results were pretty consistent.

    In any case, if it does turn out that there are 3 laser heights that hit crouching Yoshi, that doesn't change much. Crouching against Falco lasers is still pretty good.

    It does not surprise me that Yoshi's jumpsquat and landfallspecial (and most likely other landing animations) avoid lasers, but I haven't explored that as an option. It is probably useful!
     
    #302 PerhapsMan, May 9, 2016
    Last edited: May 9, 2016
  23. DD151

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    It's not unlikely that Kadano made a mistake or wasn't thorough enough with the laser heights. I find it hard to believe that those are all of Falco's possible SHL heights when you can mix up fast fall timings.
     
  24. DD151

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    Apologies for the double post. I spent some more time investigating things in develop mode today.

    I was curious about quantifying the z-axis whiff on Yoshi's dash grab. I tested Yoshi's dash grab against various characters that one would reasonably see in tournament (EDIT: I tested every character) against their shielding stances, which is generally a scenario in which you'd want to grab.

    Against most characters, Yoshi is able to grab their shielding stances on frame 11 of his dash grab whether his opponent is facing him or not. The exceptional cases are:

    Marth facing Yoshi cannot be grabbed until frame 13 (his back leg is most vulnerable)
    Sheik facing Yoshi cannot be grabbed until frame 15 (her front leg is most vulnerable)
    Mario facing away from Yoshi cannot be grabbed until frame 14 (his back arm is most vulnerable)
    G&W facing both ways cannot be grabbed until frame 14 (2D too strong)
    Roy facing Yoshi cannot be grabbed until frame 14 (his back leg is most vulnerable)
    Zelda facing both ways cannot be grabbed until frame 14 (her leg closer to Yoshi is most vulnerable)

    There are a couple of surprising conclusions to be drawn from this. The first is that Yoshi's dash grab is relatively safe to use on shield; against tournament-viable characters, he only has to especially watch for spacing against Marth, Sheik, and Mario. Characters that I expected to dodge dash grab, such as C. Falcon, Samus, and Ganon, do not do so in their shielding stances because they bend their knees ever so slightly and lower their vulnerable butt hurtboxes.

    The second is that Dr. Mario and Roy have different dash grab vulnerabilities when compared to their clones: Dr. Mario does not dodge dash grab while facing away from Yoshi while Mario does even though they have nearly identical shielding stances; the reason for this is likely because Dr. Mario's torso hurtbox is slightly fatter than Mario's. Roy dodges dash grab for one more frame than Marth; this may be because Roy is slightly shorter or that he bends his back leg slightly differently.

    Unfortunately, it's very difficult to test dash grab whiff against characters in various other states such as walk/dash/run; even the standing animation is difficult to test because movements during the idle animation can influence whether or not dash grab hits.

    Unrelated to the above, I also lazily tested F-tilt > walk > down-B true combo, which works against spacies at >100% and C. Falcon at >110%. It requires either the 80 degree hitbox with no DI or a different hitbox with some flavor of DI behind.
     
    #304 DD151, May 10, 2016
    Last edited: May 11, 2016
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  25. DD151

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    ~Triple post~

    Lightshielding pushback

    Everyone knows that Yoshi's light shield is very different from every other character's light shield; namely, it is much more slippery. Magus made a post last year explaining the mechanics behind shield knockback. In it, he says about Yoshi's shield:

    Actually, shield knockback is a somewhat misleading term, as the units in this equation are actually velocity units used by the game. It's more appropriate to label this shield pushback velocity rather than shield knockback, since knockback and velocity are very different things when used to refer to attacks.

    Shield pushback velocity is dependent only on damage and the analog shield input. Other variables such as launch angle or attack knockback don't matter. Damage is the amount of % that the attack would've done, factoring in move staling and smash charge. Analog shield input is simply how far the L/R trigger is depressed; note that a Z shield is slightly harder than the lightest analog shield.

    The displacement and velocity units used by the game can be referred to as Melee-meters; however, this information is useless without understanding how long a Melee-meter is. schmooblidon says:

    Hopefully that provides an adequate frame of reference.

    So now that we know how to calculate shield pushback velocity and we understand how long a Melee-meter is, how do we figure out how far Yoshi will slide?

    Yoshi's x-velocity decays every frame based on his ground traction. This is the same property that determines how quickly he slides to a stop after doing a wavedash. schmooblidon says that Yoshi's x-velocity decelerates by 0.06 Mm/frame/frame if his current x-velocity <= 1.15 and 0.12 Mm/frame/frame if his current x-velocity > 1.15, which appears to be about correct based on my observations. Yoshi always experiences the same amount of traction regardless of how hard his shield is or whether he transitions from shield to another action state while he is sliding.

    Sample calculation time: suppose that Yoshi is Z-shielding and gets hit by an unstale clean Fox U-smash, which would do 18%.

    Initial shield pushback velocity = floor(18.0) * 0.3 * (1 - ((0.35 - 0.3) / 0.7)) + 0.4 = 5.414 Mm/frame

    If you were to verify this in-game, however, you would find that the first frame of pushback has a velocity of 5.294 Mm/frame, which is 0.12 Mm/frame slower than expected! This is because traction is applied before Yoshi begins sliding on the ground.

    Of course, this still doesn't give you a good idea of how far Yoshi will slide, because you still have to do a calculation to determine displacement from a known initial velocity and acceleration. Here are 2 examples:
    • An attack that does 22% (such as Ganon's D-air) will cause a Z-shielding Yoshi to slide from one end of FD to the other and retain just enough velocity to slide off.
    • An attack that does 9% (such as Puff's late N-air) will cause a Z-shielding Yoshi to slide from one end of a BF platform to the other and retain just enough velocity to slide off.
    Hopefully in the future, someone else or I can make an image showing how far Yoshi slides when hit in Z-shield by a range of damaging attacks, preferably while on the Home-Run Contest stage.

    What to do after lightshielding an attack

    For every other character, lightshielding increases the number of frames of sustained shieldstun. Yoshi, however, always sustains exactly 1 frame of shieldstun regardless of how hard his shield is. After this 1 frame of shieldstun, Yoshi can do everything that he could normally do OoS.
    • If Yoshi rolls, all shield pushback velocity is instantly negated and roll continues as normal.
    • If Yoshi spot dodges or grabs, he continues to slide but will not slide off the ground until these animations are over and if he has residual x-velocity.
    • If Yoshi unshields, he continues to slide and will slide off the ground if he has residual x-velocity.
    While Yoshi is in shield (Guard) or in his unshielding animation (GuardOff), there are 2 possible outcomes if he slides off the ground:
    • If Yoshi is facing the edge, he will transition to Fall. He can grab the edge if he double jumps towards the stage.
    • If Yoshi is facing away from the edge, he will transition to MissFoot. This is a 25-frame animation that cannot be interrupted by anything except for ledgegrab. If Yoshi hits the ground during MissFoot, he transitions into normal landing; if he is still in the air after MissFoot finishes, he transitions into tumble.
    If Yoshi finishes his unshielding animation before he slides off the ground, he will stay on the ground and transition to Ottotto if facing the edge or slide off the ground and transition to Fall if facing away from the edge.

    When Yoshi slides off the ground, he retains all of his x-velocity, up to a maximum of 1.20, unless he uses neutral B while still on the ground (i.e., does a Vududash).

    tl;dr - conclusions

    That was a wall of text that tells you a lot about lightshielding but not when to apply it in a real match. These are my recommendations:
    1. Hard shielding is better against most smash attacks and tilts, which have enough cooldown that Yoshi can safely punish with shieldgrab or unshield > D-smash. Lightshielding is far superior as an escape button against aerials or other moves with low cooldown. In any situation where you find yourself rolling around to try to escape shield pressure, try to lightshield instead.
    2. Lightshielding is pretty much always "safe" to use on the ground. Regardless of which way Yoshi is facing, he will be able to grab the edge if he slides off the stage, where he can threaten with eggs.
    3. If Yoshi lightshields on a platform, he should face the edge that he's closer to, because most opponents will try to hit Yoshi off that edge. Avoid being knocked off a platform back-first, especially on stages with higher platform heights such as DL64 and BF, because this will cause Yoshi to enter MissFoot. MissFoot is okay on PS and YS because Yoshi will hit the ground before entering tumble and thus avoid going into knockdown.
    4. On BF, YS, FoD, and DL64, Yoshi can slide off the side platforms to the ledge, so facing into the stage is safer than facing away from the stage. If he is pushed away from center stage, he grabs ledge; if he is pushed towards center stage, he is actionable his first frame airborne.
     
    #305 DD151, May 13, 2016
    Last edited: May 13, 2016
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  26. PerhapsMan

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    Good stuff!

    One question: Where are you getting the value 1.2? The only thing I can think of is the attribute "Maximum H Air Mobility," but I was under the impression that that referred to how far you can drift. Isn't air speed governed by "Jump H Maximum Velicity," which for Yoshi is 1.5?

    Those attribute names are from the program Master Hand, in case that is not clear.
     
  27. DD151

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    I am getting 1.20 experimentally. I don't have the game booted up at the moment, but I remember from playing around with the physics display that 1.20 decays immediately to 1.18-something and never exceeds that value again. I assume that's the value for Yoshi's "maximum" horizontal air mobility.

    When Yoshi slides off the edge, if his x-velocity > 1.20, then it immediately becomes 1.20 on the first frame of Fall or MissFoot or whatever, and on the subsequent frame it becomes 1.18-something. If you were to continue to hold the control stick in the direction of travel, Yoshi's x-velocity stays at that value.

    1.50 IIRC is Yoshi's horizontal velocity on his first airborne frame of a running jump. That too gradually decays to 1.18-something.
     
    #307 DD151, May 13, 2016
    Last edited: May 13, 2016
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  28. tauKhan

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    Doesn't the decay happen only after the jump animation ends? Also I think during aerials the max speed is the same as jump h max velocity. At least with falcon if you do aerial just before jump animation would end, you won't slow down, and will move further than without doing aerial.
     
  29. DD151

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    I'm a little unsure of what you mean. Let me show you what I see. Suppose that Yoshi is standing still and then does a running jump, and the entire time I am holding my control stick at 0 degrees:

    Dash 1 x-v: 0.000
    Dash 2 x-v: 1.429
    KneeBend 0 x-v: 1.309 (Yoshi's ground x-velocity is decaying by 0.12 Mm/frame, as expected)
    KneeBend 1 x-v: 1.189
    KneeBend 2 x-v: 1.069
    KneeBend 3 x-v: 1.009 (Decay decreases to 0.06 Mm/frame because previous x-velocity < 1.15)
    KneeBend 4 x-v: 0.949
    JumpF 0 x-v: 1.500 (Maximum horizontal jump velocity)
    JumpF 1 x-v: 1.487 (Yoshi's aerial deceleration is apparently 0.013 Mm/frame/frame)
    JumpF 2 x-v: 1.474
    JumpF 3 x-v: 1.461
    JumpF 4 x-v: 1.448
    ...
    JumpF 23 x-v: 1.201
    JumpF 24 x-v: 1.188
    JumpF 25 x-v: 1.185 (Yoshi's maximum horizontal air mobility is apparently 1.185 Mm/frame EDIT: not true, see Magus's post below)
    JumpF 26 x-v: 1.185

    Now if Yoshi were to do an aerial on his first airborne frame, his x-velocity would be 1.487 Mm/frame instead of 1.500 Mm/frame. This may be related to the fact that Melee doesn't apply gravity on a character's first frame airborne unless he uses an aerial. In this case, it also applies to horizontal aerial acceleration. You can observe this mechanic if Yoshi does a stationary 0 degree analog jump: on his first airborne frame, if he doesn't use an aerial, his x-velocity is about 0.91; if he does use an aerial, his x-velocity is about 0.96.

    At no point will using an aerial preserve the initial horizontal jump velocity; Yoshi will always decelerate to 1.185 Mm/frame.

    Please tell me if I misunderstood your post.
     
    #309 DD151, May 13, 2016
    Last edited: May 13, 2016
  30. dvatch

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    By lightshielding a straight in firefox, would yoshi be able to slide to the end of the firefox and hit fox before he is actionable? Also, does anybody have any good methods for lightshielding? I seem to press the triggers too hard when im under pressure. Nice posts btw.
     
  31. DD151

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    Yoshi takes 1 frame of shieldstun, has a 16 frame GuardOff animation, and D-smash takes 6 frames to come out. Fox is moving for 30 frames during Firefox and has barely any landing lag, so you'd have to get hit within the first half of his up-B movement.

    As far as I'm aware, there's no good way to lightshield consistently. Technically you can buffer a lightshield with Z out of various action states, but that doesn't give you a whole lot of freedom to use it, so I practice lightshielding on a whim.

    EDIT: one possible way to get a more consistent non-Z lightshield is to lightly depress your trigger before plugging in your controller. This disables the heavier lightshields and makes it such that you get a lighter shield for a heavier trigger press (up until right before it clicks). This gives you a more consistent lightshield input, but it still fails to give you a consistent light-ness because you have to estimate how far to depress the trigger before plugging in the controller.
     
    #311 DD151, May 13, 2016
    Last edited: May 13, 2016
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  32. PerhapsMan

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    As far as I know, the fastest way into Z-shield is to buffer it from a double jump land, unless you already happen to be holding A from a previous action, in which case you can just press Z.

    @DD151 Interesting! So it seems like the attribute "Jump H Maximum Velocity" is the fastest a character is allowed to move in the air (aside from some exceptions, if they exist), and what Master Hand calls "H Air Friction" (0.013 for Yoshi) is applied on every frame. So Jump H Max Velocity isn't a sustainable speed like I thought it was, unless your ability to drift was strong enough. It seems like "Max H Air Mobility" is the limit to how much you can drift, and since Yoshi's Max H Air Mobility is 1.2, that is where his speed settles in the air (minus his air friction of course). The math isn't quite right since 1.2 - 0.013 = 1.187, but I don't know where the extra 0.002 is coming from.

    Edit: maybe a limitation of controllers not getting the full analog input?
     
    #312 PerhapsMan, May 13, 2016
    Last edited: May 13, 2016
  33. DD151

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    @PerhapsMan I misremembered the details in my original post (because I wasn't paying the closest attention). Yoshi goes from 1.200 to 1.187 to 1.185 and remains there as long as he holds full analog in the direction of travel.
     
    #313 DD151, May 13, 2016
    Last edited: May 13, 2016
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  34. Magus420

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    You're getting 1.185 instead of 1.2 because you aren't getting the full 1/-1 X input. You usually only get 0.9875/-0.9875 when holding full left/right/up/down due to the way it rounds when scaling the inputs (the analog Y needs to be exactly 0 to get 1/-1 horizontal). 1.2 * 0.9875 is where the 1.185 comes from since the max mobility scales with the X input.

    Air speed gets hard capped at Max H Air Mobility when you enter Fall after a jump when the Jump animation ends similar to when sliding off edges, but can be prevented by using an aerial before entering Fall. I don't think that's relevant to Yoshi though since he slows down from Jump H Maximum Velocity to Max H Air Mobility before the jump animation completes anyway.
     
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  35. DD151

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    I labbed some simple platform shieldpoke setups today - simple meaning stuff that can be consistently replicated, so basically grounded moves only. All tests were performed against a full shield with no shield angling. This is by no means exhaustive, but here's what I've found so far:

    On Battlefield:
    vs. Fox: U-smash, Yoshi's feet directly under Fox's front foot
    vs. Falco: U-smash, Yoshi's feet between Falco's legs, facing same direction as Falco
    vs. Marth: U-smash, Yoshi's feet directly under Marth's back foot
    vs. Sheik: U-smash, Yoshi's feet directly under Sheik's back foot
    vs. Peach: U-smash, Yoshi's feet directly under either of Peach's feet

    It doesn't seem like Yoshi can hit C. Falcon or Samus because neither character has a hurtbox on their feet.

    On Yoshi's Story (flat part):
    vs. Fox: U-tilt, Yoshi’s feet directly under Fox’s front foot, facing same direction as Fox
    vs. Falco: U-tilt, Yoshi’s feet directly under Falco’s front foot, facing same direction as Falco; U-smash, Yoshi’s feet slightly behind Falco’s back foot
    vs. Marth: U-tilt, Yoshi’s feet directly under Marth’s back foot; U-smash, Yoshi’s feet some distance in front of Marth’s front foot or behind Marth’s back foot
    vs. Sheik: U-tilt, Yoshi’s feet directly under Sheik’s back foot, facing opposite Sheik; or directly in front of Sheik’s front foot, facing same direction as Sheik
    vs. Peach: U-tilt, Yoshi's feet directly under Peach's front foot, facing same direction as Peach; U-smash, Yoshi’s feet behind Peach’s back foot
    vs. C. Falcon: U-smash, Yoshi’s feet slightly behind C. Falcon’s back foot
    vs. Samus: U-smash, Yoshi’s feet slightly behind Samus’s back foot

    Yoshi's U-tilt can just barely hit one of most characters' feet; his positioning has to be very tight and in some cases he has to be facing a particular direction. U-smash also works against most characters, but it has to be spaced differently than on Battlefield because the platforms on Yoshi's Story are lower.

    Finally, I discovered that low U-airs (either instant SH U-air or low DJC U-airs) tended to shieldpoke surprisingly frequently, especially when aimed behind a humanoid character's more exposed back foot, even in cases where it clearly looked like U-air's hitbox overlapped the shield. If I had to guess, it would be that the lower U-air hitbox has a lower hitbox ID number, so the game registers that hitbox's interaction with the opponent hurtbox over the higher hitbox's interaction with the opponent shield.
     
    #315 DD151, May 15, 2016
    Last edited: May 17, 2016
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  36. PerhapsMan

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    Good stuff! I looked into some grounded setups earlier and found the following:

    Vs Marth on even ground and with full shield, Fair > Dtilt will hit Marth's feet if he does not angle his shield. Fair > Uair will also hit his head, but it is less safe. Fair > Dtilt can be spaced so that it can't be grabbed (and will hit Marth if he tries to grab after the Fair).

    There's a lot to update in the OP from both of us. Thank you for your contributions!
     
    #316 PerhapsMan, May 15, 2016
    Last edited: May 15, 2016
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  37. DD151

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    @PerhapsMan F-air > D-tilt/D-smash also shieldpokes Peach, slightly dependent on spacing though. But Peach leaves a lot of feet exposed while shielding.

    A full jump B-air, positioned butt-to-butt, also frequently shieldpokes shielding humanoid characters on platforms.

    EDIT: other thing

    Fastest ledgehop F-air:

    Fall 0
    JumpAerialF 0-12
    AttackAirF 1-19 [input fastfall on 18]
    LandingAirF

    Slower ledgehop F-airs:

    Fall 1-4 [no fastfall]
    JumpAerialF 0-12
    AttackAirF 1-19 [input fastfall on 18]
    LandingAirF

    Fall 5-7 [no fastfall]
    JumpAerialF 0-12
    AttackAirF 1-19 [input fastfall on 19]
    LandingAirF

    Fall 1 [fastfall]
    JumpAerialF 0-12
    AttackAirF 1-19 [no fastfall]
    LandingAirF

    tl;dr Yoshi needs to be in double jump for at least 13 frames in order to get on-stage. To punish Marth, Sheik, C. Falcon up-B on-stage, you can't react to the landing (because it takes 33 frames for a hitbox to come out after letting go of ledge and they have 30-34 frames of landing lag), but there's a point where they have no option but to land on-stage.

    EDIT: other other thing

    Fastest DJC B-air:

    Kneebend 0-4 [full jump]
    JumpF/B 0-1
    JumpAerialF 0
    AttackAirB 1-10 [hitbox on 10, fastfall on 10]
    LandingAirB

    If you don't fastfall, Yoshi spends an extra frame in AttackAirB, which is probably a good thing because the frame 11 hitbox covers more horizontal and vertical area near the ground.

    Frame-imperfect DJC B-airs:

    Kneebend 0-4 [full jump]
    JumpF/B 0-5
    JumpAerialF 0-1 or 0-2 or 0-3
    AttackAirB 1-10 [hitbox on 10, fastfall on 10]
    LandingAirB

    If you don't fastfall, Yoshi executes frame 11 of AttackAirB before landing.

    Because it's highly more probable to get a 2, 3, or 4-frame double jump instead of a 1-frame double jump, I would recommend the timing for the frame-imperfect DJC B-airs, especially since Yoshi has the same timings for all variants after using the B-air.
     
    #317 DD151, May 15, 2016
    Last edited: May 18, 2016
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  38. DD151

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    You know what sucks about run-canceled D-tilt? If Yoshi isn't crouching after D-tilt ends, he immediately goes into SquatRv, even if he wasn't crouching prior to D-tilt, which prevents him from turning around until the full 7-frame animation completes. There are 2 ways to get a fast turnaround after D-tilt:
    1. If Yoshi continues to crouch for at least a frame after D-tilt ends, thereby staying in SquatWait, you can input a smash turn to turn > dash back. If you don't input a 1-frame turn, he'll enter SquatRv.
    2. Alternatively, Yoshi will turn > dash back immediately after D-tilt ends if the control stick is registering a smash turn on frame 23 of D-tilt or the frame after D-tilt ends but is not registering a turn on any earlier frame. So Yoshi can: smash turn on frame 23, smash turn on frame 1 after D-tilt, or tilt turn on frame 23 as long as the control stick will be in the smash turn region on frame 1 after D-tilt.
    This is what happens when you don't have a zillion D-tilt IASA frames like Marth...
     
    #318 DD151, May 17, 2016
    Last edited: May 17, 2016
  39. PerhapsMan

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    I buffer a walk forward to ensure that my dash back won't require a 1-frame window. In any situation where the dash back isn't completely necessary, I prefer to wavedash back since it does move Yoshi back on frame 1 (due to his head moving into the z-axis during his jumpsquat).
     
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  40. DD151

    DD151
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    I made a mistake earlier when I assumed that port position didn't matter for escaping chaingrabs. Both Sheik and SoPo can chaingrab Yoshi for 5% longer when his port # is lower than the opponent's.

    @PerhapsMan you should come on the Discord more often so that we can come up with ideas about what to lab.
     

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