Some rules I followed to get better, by LunInSpectra

[Link-NY]

Lmao...

Sora its funny how u neg repped me when really i wasent posting anything negative towards you...any1 got got neg repped by dis guy? -=P

 

[actionlen]

Nice, This not only helps my with Super Smash but also with Poker.
THis SHould be Stickied!

 

[ZoSo]

Right. I guess I forgot to mention this:

Great thread, Lunin.

 

[unknownforce]

This thread has a lot of potential. Lets not turn it into a flamewar. Even if Sora may be incorrect, nothing will be gained from saying, "Your wrong". His natural reaction will be to get defensive. The better way of dealing with it is being polite. Sora will likely learn for himself that the advanced techniques are vital. You could be the most intelligent person on earth and still lose at this game if you had no tech skill. Why? You'd mess up all the time and press the wrong buttons, even if you could read your opponents moves like a book.

Onto the topic at hand. I remember asking Ken and Isai briefly if they used their minds on a conscious level while playing. Both of them said they didn't. I must say that from my experience from being a top ranked player in another game (not this one) I had reached the same state of mind. Even though the game was highly strategical, once I had reached a top level of play my mind essentially worked subconsciously while I played. All of my analysis and strategic thinking took place without me considering it fully so that I could keep my attention focused on my opponent and analyze what he would do next.

I've found the same holds true for smash. Neo and Ken have both said my weakness in this game while I was playing competively was that I was too strategic. I'd focus my efforts on seeing steps ahead, but if I was ever wrong I'd chide myself for my foolish error. Not only that, but while I was seeing steps ahead in my mind on a conscious level, my play would slow down significantly and any really smart opponent would notice this right away, charging in before I had thought out the possible analysis of his prior defensive moves and get grabbed or hit into a painful combo.

I don't think its possible to play the game exceptionally if you analyze on a conscious level. Doing so can often leave you blind to rapid speed, which can hit at a rate too rapid for proper analysis to occur, no matter how fast your mind works. Heres a common example from a few months back. I'd be playing KoreanDJ (a real good player) who was using Fox. I'd figure out most of the patterns in his movement, but he'd do the same to me and would often punish me much more than I could punish him due to his drastically skilled technical game. I realized I would have to work on being more unpredicatable if I were to stand a chance, but while I tried to keep myself from being unpredictable, I was unable to properly read his moves anymore since I was too focused on making sure I continued no preditable pattern which could be punished.

Case in point, subconscious strategy and analysis is essential. This is a bit of a too fast paced game for your mind to analyze everything consciously. This is also a game where technical perfection is key. If you don't have the technical skill, you'll be creating openings that any technical opponent will never mess up punishing you for. I've noticed that most players are far from perfect technically, but consider this. If Ken makes mistakes 1 percent of the time, and his opponent makes them 5 percent of the time, Ken has a tremendous advantage.

The nice thing about technical skill is that it dosen't take much time to perfect, its mostly developing habits and figuring out what points you mess up. Normally, I've found that even a single mistake from a really technical player causes them to get slightly frustrated and more likely to mess up again because of the frustration. Thats why the psychological aspect of this game is so vital. Those with perfect emotional control can make a mistake and be entirely unphased. Obviously, that makes them much more deadly than the opponents who make mistakes constantly.

 

[Jbutker]

^^^^ I agree that you can't conciously think about the game and your strategy during the game. Its too slow, etc. etc. However, i have found that videos and other methods of analysis (via opp. telling you what they noticed, etc.) afterwards help a lot too. My friend and i recorded a few of our matches and went back and looked together. We learned so much about our games by analyzing the videos, because in the game i wasn't thinking, Man how did that u-smash hit me, i was thinking DI left and get away from the u-air which was coming next. Then later, i learned that the u-smash hit because of a specific mindgame that he did that i didn't read.

So analysis during match = death.
Analysis after match = much improvment

Also, great thread/info lunin.

 

[Buddha]

bravo. fantastic insight.

what people fail to realize, and why many of you seem not to appreciate, is the fact that what Lunin and what many people have said is irrefutable FACT. you can NOT say his analysis of the "mental strategies" (aka mindgames) of Smash is false, simply because he is not telling us anything new. He is merely showing us what we already knew and translating it in a more concrete context that we can understand.

those who criticize this thread are just ignorant to the fact that you already do this stuff, whether you realize it or not. which is really the main point... that these are habits of INSTINCTUAL play.

Lunin--your first mistake: placing this topic in Melee Disc.

 

[unknownforce]

^^^^ I agree that you can't conciously think about the game and your strategy during the game. Its too slow, etc. etc. However, i have found that videos and other methods of analysis (via opp. telling you what they noticed, etc.) afterwards help a lot too. My friend and i recorded a few of our matches and went back and looked together. We learned so much about our games by analyzing the videos, because in the game i wasn't thinking, Man how did that u-smash hit me, i was thinking DI left and get away from the u-air which was coming next. Then later, i learned that the u-smash hit because of a specific mindgame that he did that i didn't read.

So analysis during match = death.
Analysis after match = much improvment

Also, great thread/info lunin.

I agree entirely. You can learn a great deal from watching your matches. It's also the best way to study patterns within your own play which may be tough to notice if your attention is focused on your opponent.

 

[h1roshi]

I agree entirely. You can learn a great deal from watching your matches. It's also the best way to study patterns within your own play which may be tough to notice if your attention is focused on your opponent.

interesting...i will try dat...cuz i do mess up too much...but when i try to fix it whil playing i cant seem to figure exatcly whats wrong...but maybe if i record it...i can analyze whats wrong b4 i go staright into another match....its a very good idea....peace

-hiroshi

 

[g-regulate]

yes, studying patterns and habits are extremely effective. ive prob. used this example before, but i developed a little trick when i was having trouble this one time. i used to tinker around with falcons grab combos on marth. uthrow knee and uthrow uair worked great, but at 35% and below, my opponents were too good at DIing away from my dthrow, and i couldnt follow up an uthrow with an attack because marth can overB, or fair before he lands, blocking me.

so, id start to attack after the uthrow at low %, to FORCE them to fair or overB. when id get them in this habit, ill then uthrow, and WAIT for the fair or overB, and counterattack with a well-timed grab to rethrow after he lands. usually they dont expect it, dont DI, and bam, easy knee. i studied what i thought he would do, and used it to my advantage. and then, as the mindgames keep going on, he'll expect that re-grab, so you must then punish him for that!
melee! chess match!

 

[Sora Keyblade Master]

Sora its funny how u neg repped me when really i wasent posting anything negative towards you...any1 got got neg repped by dis guy? -=P

dude i didnt neg post you, or didnt intend to, i said sorry like 2 times, was their anything else i was suppose to do ?

 

[LunInSpectra]

Yeah I got negative rep too, ahhh oh well, I guess thats what happens when you make a thread and people get mad because you're just saying what you believe....or you made someone cry.

Lol I'm jk, thanks for all the opinions and stuff...maybe I should update it with all the analyzed & useful posts I've read.

EDIT:

Updated.

 

[Sora Keyblade Master]

I didn't ask which techs you know how to do. I asked which ones you use. If the answer is "none of them," you aren't as good at them as you think, or else you'd recognize their uses.

Talent can't be observed via the Internet. Any novice can come on here and claim to be good based on the results of inconsequential local tournaments. In fact, most of them do.


As I said, the definition of a "pro" put forth by this thread is admittedly vague. Here's what I think Lunin was getting at:

A pro is a player who:
-is a reputable and respected member of the Smash community at large (outside their own town, county, state, et cetera).
-has attended major, national tournaments and placed respectably.


The world consists of more than Texas. Nobody is "tossing johns." They're right to question you.


Nobody is saying that posting on Smashboards makes you good, either.


If such is the case, I would venture to guess that none of your opponents were any good.

You might think I'm just making blind assumptions, but I've heard the same story a hundred times or more.

Answer here

ok since im answering more people at once, ill do it all in one post.

1. Walling jumping, wall tech, air dodgeing , dodgeing, L-c, C-C, hotspoting, b-jumping,cliff gaurding, all the basic "how to play melee" just about all of them, cept wave dashing, ( kinda pointless scooting back and forth, why scoot, when you cloud walk ? )

2. Agreed talent can obesevered trough the internet, that why i say most people here have little to no talent. reason for that: 90 percent of the post i read here, are people asking for help on the basic of gameplay.

3. That sounds more like a celebrity, but i respect your defitnition of it. A extremely good player, who doesnt call himself a pro but have been called a pro by others, thats my def for it.

4. Yea i know the world is bigger than texas, ok let me get this straight, do you honestly believe, that all 15 tournaments i went too, the smallest i believe had 30 people, were all not very good ? ill end it here, all noobs at every tournament ? * shakes heads * theres alot of naive people here, i didnt think you would be one of them.

Dude, Sora, I'm not after you or anything, but I don't agree with what you're saying. I am quite decent in NorCal. I DO place top 5 in a LOT of the tournaments I have been to, (and those who know me know the tournies I haven't placed top 5 in). And these aren't local tournies man, Isai goes to them, SilentSpectre, Zelgadis, Bob$, Germ, King. You just...don't seem to know much about this stuff so I don't blame you, I was like that too.

Open your mind Sora. Use your keyblade.

Answer here

lol... ok lunin listen dude, I can see your trying to make a legitiment argument, so ill meet you halfway, you and Zoso, I actually listen to what you guys are saying. So what is it that im saying you dont agree with ?

What i dont i get is,.... Infact, i thought this was 7 habbits of a pro,.... Why did everyone turn their attention to me ? Anyway back to what i was saying, Ok now this is what i dont understand, people say Smash tournys are better than local, but out of all the tournys i went to more/better people are at the local tournaments. Then people say that local or less meaningfull than the ones that or held in someones basement ? Hmmm.... okay?

Ok the last 2 tournaments i went to held, between anywhere from 50 to 60 people, and some employees from a local Fx store rented out the building and it was a local tournament, 5 dollar entry fee, first prize $150 dollars, 2nd a gamecube , 3rd a copy of the game. OK i won that tournament, over about 50 people ? Can you tell me something ? if you knew you were a noob at a game, or not verygood ? would enter a tournament and pay 5 dollars ? if you did this obviously you thought you had some skills, no ? And tell me, besides the name, whats differs between this tournament and the ones you attend ? I guess you fight people with contracts, difrent prizes, is their anything else ? I mean, i win tournaments like this. then people say i should goto a smashboards held tourny, in some guys basement, with only about 10 people ?

Sora I am going to strongly advise you to just shut up. You keep saying "that dallas tournament" but fail to menton what it was as if you forgot (I have a weird feeling it wasn't MLG Dallas). ZoSo owns you to hell. All you are doing is arguing a point to people who KNOW you are wrong.

Here's the deal. The reason ZoSo is even bothering to argue with your scrub A** is that you are just SOOOO pretencious it hurts to let you keep posting without repercussion (also why I'm posting).

YOU ARE WRONG. You don't know NEARLY as much about the game as anybody you are arguing with. You are making yourself look like a clown. I know that to you it may seem "I can jsut argue these points because I believe they are the truth and everyone is just gonna have to deal with it." But ANYBODY who is playing at even HIGH level of play, much less pro, can tell you are a **** FOOL.

I also agree that professional smasher is a stupid term. Elite is more like it. BUT if you want to define pro, I'll just say it's someone who has signed an MLG contract. How bout that? Seems reasonable. Hence, I'm a pro and I say you should be quiet. now.

Any response other than "I'm sorry Sock I didn't know that's how it was, I'll be good" will be disregarded and automatically render you a mongoloid.

dude i only quoted this to show you, that i read your post, what was your goal in this? aside from the mindless bashing, and heavey *** kissing, I mean was this intent on lowering my selfesteem or something ? or were you trying to highten yours ? or were you trying to gain the respect of other members ? Due to your level of idoitism i was just going to ignore you, i but it seemed like you put alot of hard work into it, so i figured i should atleast respond to it.

 

[Wimpyfish62]

wavedashing can cancel dashes, cancel shields and shines, improve your movement, be used as a mindgame, and some characters move a LOT faster wavedashing (luigi). the list goes on. wavedashing IS useful.

 

[linkmanuel]

but thats not all the time

 

[Wimpyfish62]

you can also: slide off the edge for a quick hog with wavedashing, allow fox and falco to combo with their shine and allows fox to infinite if there is a wall present, and it is very quick. i dont know WHY you would actually go into the turning animation while dashing when you could simply wavedash.

 

[LunInSpectra]

Ok the last 2 tournaments i went to held, between anywhere from 50 to 60 people, and some employees from a local Fx store rented out the building and it was a local tournament, 5 dollar entry fee, first prize $150 dollars, 2nd a gamecube , 3rd a copy of the game. OK i won that tournament, over about 50 people ? Can you tell me something ? if you knew you were a noob at a game, or not verygood ? would enter a tournament and pay 5 dollars ? if you did this obviously you thought you had some skills, no ? And tell me, besides the name, whats differs between this tournament and the ones you attend ? I guess you fight people with contracts, difrent prizes, is their anything else ? I mean, i win tournaments like this. then people say i should goto a smashboards held tourny, in some guys basement, with only about 10 people ?

1) I did enter MLG SF & paid $15 to get my butt handed to me.

2) The difference between your local tournies and the tournies on smashboards are the fact that the higher-level competitors don't know about it. If your tournies were posted on smashboards, they would get attention from the Top players of Texas.

3) I've seen prizes go up past $2000.

4) You have to know your community, that basement might have 10 people that are way better than you. I go to basement tournies and I'm good. What if you meet someone like me at your basement tourny?

5) (To Clear up #4) Its like this, if you went to a chess tournament that doesn't go into the "World Chess Rankings" type of database thing, you wouldn't be known within the larger community. If you only play with people outside of the community you will never play anyone inside. Something to remember: The SMASH community (smashboards) is MUCH BETTER than the LOCAL community.

The best example I could give to answer ALL of your questions is:

Major League Gaming.

(You'll know what I mean when you go there )

 

[Sora Keyblade Master]

I'm thinking about quoting this for my sig....way too funny. Unless i'm reading it wrong I think he's suggesting that everything you need to know to be good at this game is covered in "how to play"...this guy's a trip.

No, i was saying that most info here is in the basic "how to play" but the comical part was staged perposely. I was trying to lighten the mood.

1) I did enter MLG SF & paid $15 to get my butt handed to me.

2) The difference between your local tournies and the tournies on smashboards are the fact that the higher-level competitors don't know about it. If your tournies were posted on smashboards, they would get attention from the Top players of Texas.

3) I've seen prizes go up past $2000.

4) You have to know your community, that basement might have 10 people that are way better than you. I go to basement tournies and I'm good. What if you meet someone like me at your basement tourny?

5) (To Clear up #4) Its like this, if you went to a chess tournament that doesn't go into the "World Chess Rankings" type of database thing, you wouldn't be known within the larger community. If you only play with people outside of the community you will never play anyone inside. Something to remember: The SMASH community (smashboards) is MUCH BETTER than the LOCAL community.

The best example I could give to answer ALL of your questions is:

Major League Gaming.

(You'll know what I mean when you go there )

You know i really wish you would have quoted my entire post. thats just my point it was well known, and lot of the top compitors did come. austin, houston, and dallas, basicly what your saying, the difrence is advertiseing. i been to afew basment tournaments yes smashheld, there werent all that, most less inpressive than the locals. And your number 5 is matter of oppinon, just like Zoso said, just because your apart of these site does not make you a good player. and ive beaten players form this site so.. yea.

Oh anyway dude congradulations on the thread.. nice work. n stuff

 

[ZoSo]

2. Agreed talent can obesevered trough the internet, that why i say most people here have little to no talent. reason for that: 90 percent of the post i read here, are people asking for help on the basic of gameplay.

I stated pretty explicitly that talent can't be observed via the Internet. Your skill won't speak for itself here. If you'd made a name for yourself outside of your community, people would probably be more inclined to take you seriously.

4. Yea i know the world is bigger than texas, ok let me get this straight, do you honestly believe, that all 15 tournaments i went too, the smallest i believe had 30 people, were all not very good ? ill end it here, all noobs at every tournament ? * shakes heads * theres alot of naive people here, i didnt think you would be one of them.

I've been to tournaments with 100+ players, all of whom were amateur at best. I knew in advance that there wouldn't be anybody good there. Here's why: They were all local tournaments. The players who participated in these tourneys were, as Lunin put it, "outside of the community."

Winning a tournament of fifteen known players in somebody's basement will get you more rep than winning a tourney of five thousand novices. Inexperienced players are a dime a dozen. I could probably go out right now, find 100 people from my town who think they're good, and demolish all of them.

 

[LunInSpectra]

No, i was saying that most info here is in the basic "how to play" but the comical part was staged perposely. I was trying to lighten the mood.



You know i really wish you would have quoted my entire post. thats just my point it was well known, and lot of the top compitors did come. austin, houston, and dallas, basicly what your saying, the difrence is advertiseing. i been to afew basment tournaments yes smashheld, there werent all that, most less inpressive than the locals. And your number 5 is matter of oppinon, just like Zoso said, just because your apart of these site does not make you a good player. and ive beaten players form this site so.. yea.

Oh anyway dude congradulations on the thread.. nice work. n stuff

Yeah thanks Whatever makes you happy man. Good stuff beating some peeps in smashboards.

 

[Sora Keyblade Master]

This thread has a lot of potential. Lets not turn it into a flamewar. Even if Sora may be incorrect, nothing will be gained from saying, "Your wrong". His natural reaction will be to get defensive. The better way of dealing with it is being polite. Sora will likely learn for himself that the advanced techniques are vital. You could be the most intelligent person on earth and still lose at this game if you had no tech skill. Why? You'd mess up all the time and press the wrong buttons, even if you could read your opponents moves like a book.
.

I dont get defensive, I merely respond back to all post with an equivalent reaction. I do like what you said, but how do you all stumble apon the fact, that i think advance tech are useless ? I never said that, you all know that right ?

Winning a tournament of fifteen known players in somebody's basement will get you more rep than winning a tourney of five thousand novices. Inexperienced players are a dime a dozen. I could probably go out right now, find 100 people from my town who think they're good, and demolish all of them.

Listen, no rep, I believe i said this once before already, respect especally comeing from people i dont know, means less thing nothing to me. And i know your just saying that to make a point, but go do what i did, And go find 100 people "statewide". beat all of them.

Yeah thanks Whatever makes you happy man. Good stuff beating some peeps in smashboards.

And yea, weither or not you believe me is cool too.

 

[ZoSo]

but how do you all stumble apon the fact, that i think advance tech are useless ? I never said that, you all know that right ?

You said that a player doesn't need advanced techs to be good. If such was the case, I'd consider them to be pretty useless.

Listen, no rep, I believe i said this once before already, respect especally comeing from people i dont know, means less thing nothing to me.

Okay. You're confident and that's a good thing, but don't expect anybody to listen to you until you've established yourself—especially not if you're going to call yourself "one of the best Link players."

And i know your just saying that to make a point, but go do what i did, And go find 100 people "statewide". beat all of them.

Done. Now, go beat Rob$, Caveman, and FastLikeTree. If you can beat all of them, the community at large will surely stop wave-dashing forever.

 

[linkmanuel]

I read some times, and I undertand, I try to use that in my batles, I like the spontaneity, for my is the best form of play, sorry for my last post.

 

[Hylian]

Sora, I live in texas and know alot about the tournament scene here and you have NEVER won a big tourny that one of the austin crew has attended >_>.

Last few big tournaments:

MLG Dallas
WtYM2
S.EX3
WtyM
MOAST3



>_>.. Also, if you live in houston then go to HOST. It is tomorrow and people from all over texas and out of state are going to show up.

 

[Lance87]

Lol, Sora is gonna win HOST with Link

and ive beaten players form this site so.. yea.

You mind me asking who the players from this site are that you played and beat? Maybe Rob$ and Caveman were there and you didn't even know it.

-edited out useless flame-

Click this link and watch this vid, you might learn something

 

[D_boy]

ZoSo Masashi doesnt wave dash and he is the best fox in the world. So does that make him bad.

 

[LunInSpectra]

Masashi knows how to wavedash, thats the point.

 

[Lance87]

-edit out-

I need to stop posting here.

 

[NJzFinest]

ZoSo Masashi doesnt wave dash and he is the best fox in the world. So does that make him bad.

Masashi is NOT the best Fox LOL, he isn't better than our top Fox players.
I mean, Ken ***** Masashi while Mew2king and KDJ give Ken a ton of trouble.

 

[FastFox]

Masashi is NOT the best Fox LOL, he isn't better than our top Fox players.
I mean, Ken ***** Masashi while Mew2king and KDJ give Ken a ton of trouble.

This is very true.

 

[LunInSpectra]

True. Very it is.

 

[h1roshi]

wow...dis stuff rele works...i posted eaelier in this thread talking about how i worried so much about tech skill dat my mental game was week...but started trying to play smarter than just faster technically...and it worked...i just went to a tournament this saturday where i usually get knocked out 2nd or 3rd round....but this time i got 7th place...in a 44 man tournament...getting into the top from the bottom 8 got me pretty happy...nobody should overlook these crucial elements to the game....i just wanted to say thank you..i see the game differently now...and its improved my game a lot...so yeah thanx....peace

-hiroshi

 

[LunInSpectra]

Yes...success stories .

If anybody else had some experience getting better results from playing smarter opposed to faster/more technical let us know.

 

[h1roshi]

and no...my tournament wasnt a dumb local tournament with people outside the smash community...as a matter of fact 1st place was HELIOS....he happened to still be down in FL since he came down for MLG orlando...so yeah...just incase ne1 was thinking if this was a noob tournament or not...peace

-hiroshi

 

[Ftw Is A Falco]

This is def. a good outlook on how to defeat an opponent. But most of this is naturally done by instinct. It basically separates the good players fom the great, it isn't really something you can just pick up if you don't know already.

 

[TheCatPhysician]

Oh yeah, I've been meaning to post here for a while. I read this back when it came out, and it really helped me. I've shown it to a few friends, too. It is very well written, and I think this is one of those things everyone should see when they are in the stage of becoming competitive, when they're learning the advanced techniques and everything.

And I love how it's based on those 7 Habits books. The timing of this was perfect for me, because you wrote this almost right after one of my highschool classes had us read "7 Habits of Highly Effective Teens." I really liked that book.

 

[Sora Keyblade Master]

You said that a player doesn't need advanced techs to be good. If such was the case, I'd consider them to be pretty useless.

Soras Answer:
No, i didnt say that either. if i did, quote me if im wrong.
I said not all pro-players use advance techs, and that the way he wrote this makes it sound as if all pro-player play very identical to each other, which is not the case.

Okay. You're confident and that's a good thing, but don't expect anybody to listen to you until you've established yourself—especially not if you're going to call yourself "one of the best Link players."

Soras Answer:
Hmm i didnt say that out-loud, someone else called me that, and i just agreed with them, but weither or not the people of this site care to terms with this or not is of vain, im one of the top 3 ranked playrs in texas. if its known on this site or not i dont care.


Done. Now, go beat Rob$, Caveman, and FastLikeTree. If you can beat all of them, the community at large will surely stop wave-dashing forever.

Soras Answer:
Zoso i thought this was done already, kay tho i never heard of any of these people,or where and how can i find them . And if there not in texas, its gonna be awhile, since i cant leave texas untill im 19. but you know, im ready

 

[Sora Keyblade Master]

sorry, the post got doubled by mistake

 

[Sora Keyblade Master]

Sora, I live in texas and know alot about the tournament scene here and you have NEVER won a big tourny that one of the austin crew has attended >_>.

Last few big tournaments:

MLG Dallas
WtYM2
S.EX3
WtyM
MOAST3



>_>.. Also, if you live in houston then go to HOST. It is tomorrow and people from all over texas and out of state are going to show up.

who are you ? i didnt go to those tournaments because 1 or 2 reasons, 1 didnt know about them, im sure they were listed on smash boards, but as you can i join here only this month, about 2 or 3 weeks ago. or if i did know about them i havent the transportantion at the time. as it clearly states under my name, i live in waco texas.

 

[Brookman]

click the edit button you noob. go to a quality tournament and play quality players and after they easily 5 stock you in a 3 stock match quit your trash talk, or better yet, quit playing smash. this community doesn't need people who make alternate accounts in order to spread their own name and refuse to listen to more experience players etc.

 

[Dope_Dizzle]

well at least someone tried teach something about these "mindgames"(if you will), but in a way i think most of it is common sense