Some rules I followed to get better, by LunInSpectra

[Zeus-oz]

I agree with DJKARTHIK .

While the Player must effectively employ mind games and strategize in advance you must also rely on your technical ability and experience/impulse(discrestionary impulse)

 

[-Zangetsu-]

Great Topic, It actually brought me back to SWF. ^^

 

[RCD]

this stuf works

 

[Virgilijus]

Good stuff Lunin.

 

[Lucky_Sharmz19]

This is good stuff indeed.

 

[cb_marth]

I agree great topic!

 

[JustOwnin]

Heh heh heh. I see someone has been reading Stephen Covey books.

To those who say he puts to much thought into this. I say that you put to LITTLE thought into things.

Sometimes its not about being smarter, its knowing when and what to think about.


In each communtiy their seems to be those who analyze the proper mindset to be good at the game.

Although different words are used, we all speak the same truth.

Either it be Sirlin who wrote a whole entire BOOK on the idealogies that govern "playing to win"
http://www.sirlin.net/

Or Ponder (twin to inkblot) who had his own forum dedicated to high level thought and play where he posted articles on such.
http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=176

or even I, the head moderator of the Dead Or Alive Training Board at doacentral where I tackled in detail such questions as "Why are their so few high level players? Why are some players naturally better than others? How cna you reach those heights?"
http://www.doacentral.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10019


Although we play different games. Although our games mindgame differ in ways and what we speak on is slightly different. We are all connected by the fact that we ask the question that so few desire to ask and get an answer. Connected in the fact that we see that success is a system. A system that can be calculated and documented. And finally we are connected by the fact that we try to spread our mesage to as many as possible.

 

[JustOwnin]

Oh I'd also like to add that their is no such thing as a "good habit." Why is that? Because we live in a world of subjective infinity, and things that cna bring about great good can also bring about great evil.

Sure the habits you speak of can bring aboutgood results 90% of the time. But their are instances in which they shall backfire. That is why the ability to be aware of your habits and aliter them before they can be harmful should also, paradoxically, be a habit.


Heh heh heh, I see someone has been reading a lot of self help books.

Remember

"One who originates thrives, one who imitates dies. By adding on when needed while still respecting the original teaching one thrives, by imitating one dies."

and

"The higher yout put something on a pedastool, the harder it is to climb."

With the emergence of the concept that governs the "pro" more and more people are forgetting tha the pros are just people who are ogod at videogames. And that at base they are just men like me and you. Furthermore, just because they are better than yuou in a videogame doesnt mean that their aren't multitudes of htings you can do better than them. Furthermore, so many people are just copying l33t strats and accepting opinions fed to them instead of coming up with them themselves.

A common problem in all fighting game communities.

 

[Omega_Star]

Okay, we're back in Austin now.

Yes, Sora paid just like he said he would, and he and his friends are nice in real life. But they did get pwned.

And yes Sora, Wes was doing pretty badly with Falco, but you saw what he was capable of for the most part when he was doing the infinite to you on FD as Fox. That's not the best he can play, but he was doing alright.

Sora and his friends would actually be very good if they had proper training and the chance to play good people more often. They were talking big to get us to drive up there and play them, all that stuff about the tournaments wasn't true, so everyone can calm down now.

There were many lessons to be learned:

Why you shouldn't fight a Peach on Hyrule
Why you shouldn't fight a Fox on Hyrule (AKA Why Hyrule is banned)
Why you shouldn't play with Team Attack OFF (Yeah, we did some double Falco here)

But they were very willing to learn, and we had a good time.

GG to everyone who has participated in this topic.

<3

Such a beautiful conclusion *sniff*

Lol seriously though, the tale of Sora was some of the funniest **** ever, lmao. And before you guys get onto me for mentioning that, I probably spent at least two hours of my life reading that ****, so I think I deserve a comment on it

Anyway, Wes is now officially my hero.

Anyway-

The aim of this topic is actually pretty nifty. Through reading it I was able to broaden my definition and application of this mysterious phenomenon known as "mind games" and apply it to my game, expanding my range of viewable potential. Now I can truly see just what it is exactly that separates the pros from me.

One question though- I believe in the original post (lolz) you mentioned that the high-end pros are able to perform all of these mindgames subconciously. Is it believed that that is something that only those select few who were born with certain mental characteristics can do, or is it believed that just about anyone can develop such talent over time?

 

[fox386]

yeah, I kind of agree with you. That most of this comes from experience. But everybody could use a little help in this area So yeah, this is like a zen of being a good smasher. I guess if someone is curious about playing the game on a mental level, this is a good start. This is good for people w/o too many people to play so they don't get pwned at a tourney or something. If you have alot of friends that play the game, then this probably just tells you what you already know. I can't wait for online play in ssbb. Super Smash wouldn't ever be boring again (endless n00bs to pwn, lol).

 

[Jedi (Marth)]

Well, I for one think it's an interesting read and where some call it "to deep" I call it a sensible breakdown of fundamental algorithms a player could apply to their mid-level game and (this is key) *if properly implemented and practiced* (which I say because a fluent understanding of these traits will differ far from being able to break down your own game and apply each of the relative traits in a manner that supports growth.) could yield a refined player who's mind-game will challenge those who become irrational when they have an off-match and suffer the distraction - cause if even a little bit someone plays into it, those few concepts only promote each other and would have them pouting in no time =D

Despite being in favor of this topic, I think even if I didn't agree so much I would still see the rational thought and time put into the idea - great post!

 

[vexed69]

NOTE:
THESE ARE HABITS! HABITS! HABITS!
When you take a piss do you think about washing your hands after or do you just do it?

what if you don't wash your hands after a piss?

 

[LunInSpectra]

Then your name is Sora Keyblade Master.

 

[ender]

I wanted to see the post where sora posted in detail about the fights in the other thread, but he edited the first post so its no longer there. did anyone happen to save it?

 

[Lixivium]

I wanted to see the post where sora posted in detail about the fights in the other thread, but he edited the first post so its no longer there. did anyone happen to save it?

He did make a topic, but there was no detailed recap. He just gave one of the lamest johns I've ever seen on Smashboards about not trying his hardest and not being impressed with Wes' style. It was sad.

 

[theFalcoMasta]

Great post lunin thanks for these tips.

 

[Sora Keyblade Master]

the details in a nutshell: he played a $70 money match vs flt and got 5 stocked 4 times in a row (best 4 of 7).

he posted some long random **** about him being like "naruto" and bouncing back eventually to become "hokage (ken)" of smash.

then he said he said he wasn't trying even though he was playing for $70. he said the "simple style" was too effective and boring for him or something and he "knew he wouldn't win". then he went onto say that the same simple style that owned him did not impress him. he'd be more impressed if he had won against someone who used flashy tactics. basically he doesn't find winning to be impressive.

that's about it.



I sort of agree but sort of disagree. I think it's important to actively think about these 7 habbits while in tournament, though sometimes one might do it subconsciously. I can't really talk since i'm no pro, i guess i'll leave it to the pros to comment on this part (whether they do the habbits subconsciously or not).

yea thats pretty much everything.

Edit: also rematch coming soon this january, or Feb. Let it be known tell everyone.

 

[Brookman]

I sort of agree but sort of disagree. I think it's important to actively think about these 7 habbits while in tournament, though sometimes one might do it subconsciously. I can't really talk since i'm no pro, i guess i'll leave it to the pros to comment on this part (whether they do the habbits subconsciously or not).

The Brookman06: you can't conciously think
The Brookman06: and be good
The Brookman06: concious thinking is WAY too slow
The Brookman06: that's why you need really good tech
The Brookman06: so you don't need to worry about that
The Brookman06: and your fingers just act autonomously while your eyes send upside down images into your brain
The Brookman06: then the cells talk to eachother at the speed of light
The Brookman06: and make your fingers do different things
The Brookman06: depending on the situation
The Brookman06: as opposed to you sitting there scratching your balls
The Brookman06: trying to figure out what to do while the other player just upsmashes you

Edit: also rematch coming soon this january, or Feb. Let it be known tell everyone.

no one cares about you anymore.

 

[Sora Keyblade Master]

no one cares about you anymore.

You still hateing ? , with yo ole scrub a**. lol

Nah im done with this thread. Time to let it die out.

 

[Dread101]

Yes the return of sora the keyblade master! I cant wait! this one better be on dvd!

 

[Airo]

edit: ignore me

 

[theFalcoMasta]

The Brookman06: you can't conciously think
The Brookman06: and be good
The Brookman06: concious thinking is WAY too slow
The Brookman06: that's why you need really good tech
The Brookman06: so you don't need to worry about that
The Brookman06: and your fingers just act autonomously while your eyes send upside down images into your brain
The Brookman06: then the cells talk to eachother at the speed of light
The Brookman06: and make your fingers do different things
The Brookman06: depending on the situation
The Brookman06: as opposed to you sitting there scratching your balls
The Brookman06: trying to figure out what to do while the other player just upsmashes you

Eh well you might be right.

I don't think the game is too fast for us to be able to think at a conscious level and react appropriately.

But then again, the problem is I certainly don't play at a pro level. It'd probably be nice to have the comments on someone like ken, pc chris, chu, azen, etc. etc.

Though, in this situation, given that you (brookman) are much more experienced and play at a higher level, I guess I'll take your word for it now.

 

[LunInSpectra]

Everybody has to Chunk what they are doing. A lot of people responding to this thread are basically saying:

"We don't have TIME to consciously think Lunin! I mean, I have to move my thumb approximately 2 centimeters up my controller, left one centimeter according to my index finger, send a signal to my finger to press down, send a signal to lift up, move back down 2 centi--"

If you read what I say at the end of my article, it will say you must not Worry about your technical skill. Crystallize it, have the ability to NOT second guess the ability of your technical skill.

Once that has been achieved, you can CHUNK. CHUNK Information! How do you do this? Well lets see:

My opponent is always coming in at me with C. Falcon's Nair (shorthopped).
I'm a fox at FD. What I can do is Full Hop --> Drill because his Nair has NO VERTICAL ATTACK.

That's chunking. Assessing what he does, looking for a weakness, determining the best thing to do, and having it practically automated by your fingers to do it. Everybody already has the ability to chunk.....but at what level no one knows but themself.

 

[h1roshi]

so all this time all i had to do was chunk?...jeezus...i could have been pro all this time if i only chunked....lol...but i agree...common sense tells u dat if u keep gettin hit by the same thing over and over u should b able to ***** dat u have to do sumthing differently...i said it b4...i'll say it again...great post lunin....and this has really worked for me...iposted b4 saying how i did better in a tournament after reading this....and its been consistent....i just got another top 8 finish last tournament..it was 6th place to b exact...basically the ruleof thumb i learned from this is to focus more on playing smarter than faster...once u start playing smarter naturally...and ur texh skill can follow...u'll start playing faster...newayz...ive been getting a lot better...and i have another tourney coming up 12/17....i am going for another top 8 finish...well yeah...dats all...thanks for this greatness thread....peace

-hiroshi

 

[Delphiki]

I have a question: why is this thread not stickied?

 

[Sora Keyblade Master]

Yes the return of sora the keyblade master! I cant wait! this one better be on dvd!

Ill pm it to you

 

[Overswarm]

Everybody has to Chunk what they are doing. A lot of people responding to this thread are basically saying:

"We don't have TIME to consciously think Lunin! I mean, I have to move my thumb approximately 2 centimeters up my controller, left one centimeter according to my index finger, send a signal to my finger to press down, send a signal to lift up, move back down 2 centi--"

If you read what I say at the end of my article, it will say you must not Worry about your technical skill. Crystallize it, have the ability to NOT second guess the ability of your technical skill.

Once that has been achieved, you can CHUNK. CHUNK Information! How do you do this? Well lets see:

My opponent is always coming in at me with C. Falcon's Nair (shorthopped).
I'm a fox at FD. What I can do is Full Hop --> Drill because his Nair has NO VERTICAL ATTACK.

That's chunking. Assessing what he does, looking for a weakness, determining the best thing to do, and having it practically automated by your fingers to do it. Everybody already has the ability to chunk.....but at what level no one knows but themself.

Good advice.


If someone really wanted to put forth the effort, they could give an example, at least of what to do when approaching / being approached, and if they programmed it into their head they could really see if it worked.

Like every time someone rolls from the ledge, a jigglypuff "knows" to rest them.

Chunking isn't the best descriptor for it though

It's more like specific conditioning.

 

[Dead Eye 935]

Nice article. You definently put a lot of thought into it, that's for sure. But, this happens subconciously most of the time anyways. It's fairly simple psychology, really. I would say to not mentally think about all of this. If you do, you would be likely to screw up. Unless you have a MASSIVE mental capacity.

For example....If Falcon short hops into a Nair, you have maybe.....barely a tenth of a second to process everything he could do, and what he will most likely do. We can't think that fast conciously. But lets say your good friend mains with Falcon. After doing that over and over again......your subconcious will be able to go through all the things he will do, and all the things he will be likely to do, form a reaction, and execute it. All without you even knowing it.

 

[MaskedMarth]

The thing about a habit is that you start by thinking about it consciously, and then it becomes subconscious. If you want to improve your subconscious processes, you have to start by thinking about it.

 

[Lucky_Sharmz19]

I have a question: why is this thread not stickied?

That's what i asked....

 

[Mitch]

This thread is great, it confirmed my "theory" that technical skills must be mastered before you can take it to the next level, mind-games and the likes. The problem for me is how far I should try to adopt new technical skills. For example, I play doc and have recently become fairly confident in my shorthops, L-cancels, n/b-air shffls, and some other generic advanced moves. After I master these I could either stick to these moves and move on to training myself in mind-games (e.g. play even more people of a higher level without experimenting new moves), or I could practice even more advanced moves like up-b cancelling and u-air juggling. (Maybe doc isn't the perfect example, fox would probably be better.) Dilemma!

 

[Epok]

I think your points are vary true. learnig tp prodict my opponets attacks has helped my skill level increase. some times as a training method i will focus my attention on the opponents to learn to notice there tells before they start their moves.

 

[EnigmaticCam]

Has anybody here ever read "Reassess your Chess" by Jeremy Silman?

Silman is an international master who came up with what is now called the "Silman Thinking Technique". His technique involves masterfully breaking down a chess position into imabalances, choosing canditate moves that would strengthren your advantageous imbalances, and then analyzing each candidate move and checking for any possible tactical mistakes they might bring about. It's an entire book on things like pawn structure, minor pieces like bishops verses knights, development, etc.

What does this have to do with this topic? Well, many times throughout the book Silman states that the reader must be saying to himself that all this analyzing and thinking would take way too much time in a real game match. This topic reminds me of this book. Lunin posts some very good thinking techniques but a lot of people are arguing that it would take too long to consciously think about everything while playing a match.

The answer to this argument is the same Silman had for his readers: you must train yourself to use these thinking techniques without actually thinking about them. By analyzing chess games and chess positions, forcing yourself to go through the steps of breaking down the position when you're not sure what to do, all of this will slowly over time etch into your mind the ability to do this quicker and quicker without having to think about it. Same with smash. By forcing yourself to actively think about this, even if you lose more games at first, you will eventually learn how to think about it unconsciously.

Now, I'm no expert on smash. The few here who know me can attest to that But I think this "active thinking technique" Lunin is trying to describe can be applied to all types of games. You basically just need to work the right neurons into quicker and faster pathways

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i love this topic, its so cool lol

 

[InfiniteFalco1337]

What i believe is(Try to be unpredictible)and never try to over think your opponent, u might just end up dieing lol.

 

[LunInSpectra]

Alright I'm making vids to make this topic 10x as cool.

 

[Brookman]

I think that sora sucked the potential greatness out of this topic. since it's now SEVENTEEN PAGES OF FORTY POSTS OF GARBAGE, for the most part. Though I do admire your determination, so let's see this shiz!

edit: before someone attacks me, I was kidding.

 

[MaskedMarth]

Has anybody here ever read "Reassess your Chess" by Jeremy Silman?

I haven't read that book, but I've read another chess book by Silman, geared more towards beginners. I'll check this one out sometime, though - Silman is pretty smart and articulate.

I imagine that, if consciously thinking out every element of your pawn position takes too long in a chess match, then thinking through everything in a Smash match would just be hopeless. You have to reduce it to your subconscious.

 

[Sora Keyblade Master]

Hey Guys to the one asking why this thread isnt stickied, Im guessing its because of the my saga. But yea, I now believe luin made this forum with every thought of it being stickied but because of 40 pointless pages of me joshing around and haveing fun with flames and 2 cents collection from many difrent people. I believe it was not. Which is why i made my own forum so tha luin's could get back on track. Dont mistaken me, im not apologizing for what i done. If had the chance to join this site and start over diferently, ill do the samething all over again. But I am apologizeing Ruining luin's thread. Take it how you want it. If Iseem arrogrant, then cool. But if you see my point then thats cool too.

Also Luin, couldnt you make a new thread with this same info and have that stickied ?since the admins know what happen to this. Im sure they would allow you to.

 

[Brookman]

Hey Guys to the one asking why this thread isnt stickied, Im guessing its because of the my saga. But yea, I now believe luin made this forum with every thought of it being stickied but because of 40 pointless pages of me joshing around and haveing fun with flames and 2 cents collection from many difrent people. I believe it was not. Which is why i made my own forum so tha luin's could get back on track. Dont mistaken me, im not apologizing for what i done. If had the chance to join this site and start over diferently, ill do the samething all over again. But I am apologizeing Ruining luin's thread. Take it how you want it. If Iseem arrogrant, then cool. But if you see my point then thats cool too.

Also Luin, couldnt you make a new thread with this same info and have that stickied ?since the admins know what happen to this. Im sure they would allow you to.

You don't seem arrogant you just seem stupid >_> how much money did you lose to FLT over a joke again, 70$?