Solar Powered: Ivysaur Q&A/General Discussion Thread

[Shell]

Synthesis start's push is strong enough to halt a relatively fast character running at you in place for ~10 frames on average, though it's weaker on the outside and stronger on the inside. If the character does not have a lot of forwards velocity to counter then you can push them away. It's surprisingly useful for spacing trixies in either scenario, and it can definitely do things that no other attack of hers is capable of. Combine it with 3.0 Bair (and get a sense for when it's better to hit deep or tip for this) for some devastating edge guards.

To anyone unhappy with Razor Leaf, try "Wavebouncing" it if you haven't yet - you can look like you're going for a possible jump in but shift backwards while putting out a RL at just the right spacing to get the leaf in their zone as it's decelerated. RL is also still pretty useful as a combo extender.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

To clarify something that Swann was suggesting, you can use your B-Air after a F-Air (or F-Airs, heh) and still send the opponent out, despite the fact that you're swinging in the opposite direction.

Synthesis windbox is way more nuanced, but it has unique and useful stuff to it. Sometimes it's best to B-Reverse it for safety reasons. If you do it to an opponent in the air, not only do they get pushed back, but they hang in the air for a while, so if you catch someone shuffling an aerial toward you, you'll keep them away from you and most likely throw off their L-Cancel. It has really good synergy with D-Tilt in that respect. This also makes it useful for juggle trapping certain opponents, as someone like a Fox or Falco will find it hard-pressed to mix you up with a "jump straight above you -> D-Air," and people won't like landing when they're forced to stick around like that.

It also makes for some wacky Cape-like edgeguarding. It absolutely demolishes people's sweetspotting, and offstage B-Reverse Synthesis as well as landing Synthesis -> grounded Synthesis for a quick double-push near the edge can cause a lot of grief. It's really fun to experiment with and still has a number of uses without needing to be the equivalent of a Shine to be useful (as it was in 2.6b).

EDIT: Shell beat me to some of it. Listen to him.

 

[Shell]

Haha, and just to further elaborate on what Reflex is saying about Bair -- even though the timing and KB are a little more similar to v2.5 Bair, the internal body hit still has the same larger, easily reverse-able hitbox size & placement of v2.6, so now you have access to an even better horizontal send off tool even when you're facing the opponent.

 

[Meme]

- Increased aerial drift strength and decreased aerial friction
- Slightly decreased grounded friction
- and the falling speed thing

So... this means Ivy is more maneuverable in the air?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yes, it does. It doesn't turn you into Wario or anything, but it is there.

 

[TreK]

If, like me, you find yourself wondering where all of Ivy's combos went...

Play an Ivysaur CPU.

 

[Deleted member]

I will admit that the increased speed in the air is nice, and Ivy still has combos, yes.

I'm still of the opinion that Razor Leaf is now terrible. Every facet of the move is significantly worse. I barely ever even want to use it now. Sorry, total overkill.

 

[Jolteon]

Decreased friction also helps with her WDing, FYI.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Her moonwalk is better. :3

 

[Serris]

I will admit that the increased speed in the air is nice, and Ivy still has combos, yes.

I'm still of the opinion that Razor Leaf is now terrible. Every facet of the move is significantly worse. I barely ever even want to use it now. Sorry, total overkill.

I agree. It was my understanding that Ivysaur was designed as a zoning character. The changes to Razor Leaf make it extremely clunky and difficult to use effectively.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Zoning isn't supposed to be fire-and-forget. It's supposed to be a thoughtful process, and you don't have to be able to put a projectile out at every moment to be a competent zoner.

 

[Serris]

Zoning isn't supposed to be fire-and-forget. It's supposed to be a thoughtful process, and you don't have to be able to put a projectile out at every moment to be a competent zoner.

I said nothing about "fire and forget." I'm saying that the projectile is a lot worse for zoning than it was before. The speed, range, hit, and damage properties should be reverted to 2.6b. As for the start-up and ending of the move itself, I don't mind that being slowed down. That was totally understandable.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Razor Leaf doesn't have to be an integral part of her walling to be useful; it still has its niche uses. I would recommend reading the thread in this subforum containing the rationale behind the changes.

That said, you might be right, but this will be determined in time. I think it's hard to make conclusions less than a day into 3.0's release.

 

[TreK]

Zoning isn't supposed to be fire-and-forget. It's supposed to be a thoughtful process, and you don't have to be able to put a projectile out at every moment to be a competent zoner.

*cough*falco*cough*

I agree though.

Sooo... With synthesis not hitting stuff, and fair/bair sending lower, how do we set up solar beams ? I hate holding onto a charge because I love the windbox, but I hate just tossing a random solar beam away too. utilt seems legit but it's heavily % dependant.

 

[Dng3]

So after reading Shell's post about the reasoning behind her changes, I just have one concern and its Ivy's biggest weakness, the ability to compete with close up encounters with fast combo type characters.

Overall, her matchups against those he use to destroy are more fair but I dont see how one move (wind hitbox synthesis) is going to make up for her nerfed tools against speedy fighters. Can someone elaborate on those matchups she had huge problems with in 2.5 and how 3.0 changes that? I must of missed something else in that post. Thanks!

 

[EmLeingod]

So uh... what's Razor Leaf's intended application in the new patch? Cuz I ain't seeing it. I can agree with most of her changes and adjust to the rest, but her razor leaf should have just been changed to something else if it was going to become this useless. I really don't see any reason to use her razor leaf anymore. The reward from a successful Razor Leaf does not justify the risky start up lag.

I'll agree it was a too easy to use in 2.6b (especially since it was a completely nonpunishable approach option), but this seems like a classic case of over nerf to me.

 

[Dng3]

While I do agree and hope it gets some adjustments later, the new razorleaf is not too bad. Of course you cant just throw it out as you please anymore but its a good pressure tool if you space yourself correctly and use it sparingly. Where it lingers in place at the end of its animation is the sweet spot and can be effective against opponents getting up from knockdown, recovering, and creating a risky but helpful wall. That's all I got from it so far.

That said, I think it could of been handled differently to tone it down from 2.6. Some ideas of mine:

-make the leaf dissapear on shield or
-startup lag (which they did) or
-make it hit only once

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Sourspot U-Air and the tip of F-Air set up nicely for Solar Beam. Lighter characters DI'ing upward can take it from Dash Attack and N-Air.

Because of the U-Throw/D-Throw changes, you get a 50/50 for Up-B at mid percents and Solar Beam at high percents. Getting used to B-Reversing and aiming it out of a runjump is key.

N-Air is probably her best move now (though it was up there in the past versions). Great out-of-shield option and a great shield harassment tool. If you shuffle it, the final hit won't send them away, so you can N-Air again quickly on unsuspecting opponents, so mixing that up is good.

Razor Leaf can help you continue the pressure after the end of a string near the ground, proper use of B-Reversing and wavebouncing allows you to still use it as a solid spacing tool at its ideal range, and it's a little better for edgeguard harassment than before.

 

[EmLeingod]

Eh. I really don't like start up lag on a projectile. I mean how many Lucas mains do you see use use a grounded PK ice effectively on some sort of regular basis?

Also, am I crazy or did they increase her jump lag?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I mean, you can just not use it if you want, but I can assure you that you'd just be limiting yourself. PK Freeze is a bad comparison, as it doesn't really hold people in place or harass shields like Razor Leaf does.

Also, you're crazy.

 

[EmLeingod]

I mean, you can just not use it if you want, but I can assure you that you'd just be limiting yourself. PK Freeze is a bad comparison, as it doesn't really hold people in place or harass shields like Razor Leaf does.

I actually hadn't seen your post when I made my last reply. lol

I'll try your recommendations out though, thanks.

As a side note, this AI is starting to get frighteningly good, complements to the chef.

Also, you're crazy

Alright. I dunno what's going on over here then, maybe it's just the fact that I haven't been playing since 3.0 was announced.

 

[TreK]

While I do agree and hope it gets some adjustments later, the new razorleaf is not too bad. Of course you cant just throw it out as you please anymore but its a good pressure tool if you space yourself correctly and use it sparingly. Where it lingers in place at the end of its animation is the sweet spot and can be effective against opponents getting up from knockdown, recovering, and creating a risky but helpful wall. That's all I got from it so far.

That said, I think it could of been handled differently to tone it down from 2.6. Some ideas of mine:

-make the leaf dissapear on shield or
-startup lag (which they did) or
-make it hit only once

I'd have loved the leaf to disappear on shield, but you have to remember that if the leaf disappears, you get to toss another one faster. It puts the emphasis on powershielding it instead of just shielding it, but that's giving more work to the opponent, when the goal was to give more work to Ivy.
I'd love to see how a single hitting razor leaf would fare. It would remove the whole shield pressure aspect, but if it can trade that for a bit of startup reduction, well, that's a plus to me. I've never really camped with Ivysaur anyway, though mostly because I suck at camping (says the brawl player lol).

I like to keep track of my stats because that helps my consistency. Last month in 2.6 I averaged a solid 10 razor leaves per match (which was apparently still enough for people to ragequit because of it), today I average about 6. The hit %age and conversion %age is lower too. There is, most certainly, some getting used to to do, but the new razor leaf is admittedly meh in comparison.
Keyword here is "in comparison". 2.6 razor leaf was broken.

I'll try to look further into it. I've got a smashfest tomorrow and on friday, and this weekend is the 2nd or 3rd biggest French Melee major of the year, where there will be at least 6 P:M setups from what I know, so I'll get to test a lot of stuff on human opponents.

 

[Vino.]

I think the new Ivy is terrible. He is completely ruined, you guys say how you have to compensate with all these things for something else. When in fact it may be somewhat decent he cannot compete in a competitive gameplay, and will get demolished.

 

[Ogopogo]

Ivy's Japanese voice is cute as hell.

You can change it? Or is it just like that in 3.0?

Also I am forever calling a dair (meteor? spike?) kill a Chunky Dunk, haha

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You're just saying words, Vino. You're welcome to think what you want, but coming to the conclusion that she's unviable less than 24 hours within its release is pretty silly, I feel. You're welcome to your opinion, but if you're expecting to unlock the potential of a significantly tweaked character so early, you probably aren't willing to put the time in to be good as any character. :/

 

[Vino.]

You're just saying words, Vino. You're welcome to think what you want, but coming to the conclusion that she's unviable less than 24 hours within its release is pretty silly, I feel. You're welcome to your opinion, but if you're expecting to unlock the potential of a significantly tweaked character so early, you probably aren't willing to put the time in to be good as any character. :/

I'm not "just saying words" her now compared to what she was is nothing. I have other characters, and being a big pokemon fan I'm disappointed to see what she has become. You know what you're talking about, and I understand that. I just feel as if she is NOT good anymore and not viable.

 

[EmLeingod]

So when can we expect some top-level 3.0 Ivy vids???

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Tipped Off 9 is this weekend, and there's a PM event there. Hopefully I'll be able to make some waves there.

 

[Vino.]

Tipped Off 9 is this weekend, and there's a PM event there. Hopefully I'll be able to make some waves there.

I hope you can give me some motivation.

 

[Swann]

To go off a lot of the above...

you guys destroyed Razor Leaf

*cough*falco*cough*

over nerf

I feel like it should at least be said that Falco definitely gets his **** wrecked whenever he shoots without thought. I like how Reflex said that zoning is more of a thoughtful, active process. 2.6 leaf had the potential to reduce Ivy's moveset and playstyle to a first-order optimal, which was (IMO) toxic to the character. 3.0 leaf no longer invalidates entire members of the roster, and there are consequences for shooting without thinking.

Synthesis start's push is strong enough to halt a relatively fast character running at you in place for ~10 frames on average...

If you do it to an opponent in the air, not only do they get pushed back, but they hang in the air for a while, so if you catch someone shuffling an aerial toward you, you'll keep them away from you and most likely throw off their L-Cancel... This also makes it useful for juggle trapping certain opponents...

I don't know if this works against every floaty, but I definitely was able to catch M2 in the air and carry him offstage with repeated SH synthesis. I did also notice that the windbox will mess with SHFFL timings. Didn't think about edgeguarding usage, though. I'll have to mess with that.

Sooo... With synthesis not hitting stuff, and fair/bair sending lower, how do we set up solar beams ? I hate holding onto a charge because I love the windbox, but I hate just tossing a random solar beam away too. utilt seems legit but it's heavily % dependant.

I have success with fair->solarbeam at most %, sweetspot bair->FF->reverse beam when in the air (be aware of their midair jump), uthrow/dthrow->beam DI traps, and using seed bomb to force a particular recovery direction->beam during juggles (uair and fair). There was one particularly satisfying combo that began with an onstage dair meteor into grab and ended with vine whip into solarbeam. Anyway, what I'm saying is that I have had the most success with solarbeam by restricting their options to the point where the other guy doesn't really have a choice but to eat a solarbeam. Always be looking for how the other player reacts to your Ivy when you have stage control and he/she is trapped above you at various distances.

...I dont see how one move (wind hitbox synthesis) is going to make up for her nerfed tools against speedy fighters. Can someone elaborate on those matchups she had huge problems with in 2.5 and how 3.0 changes that? I must of missed something else in that post. Thanks!

Are you referring to characters like: Fox, Falco, Wolf, Falcon, Sonic, ZSS, Marth, Lucario, etc? Don't forget about the tools she had and still has! Chainthrows against FFers, HUGE zoning space control using bair, fair, usmash, dsmash, and (despite the nerfs) seeds & leaves... great offstage game, unique aerial zones of control, a decent punish game, and the ability to force approaches using synthesis heal. Although I do agree that it will be harder in the end, I think Ivy still has the potential to win these matchups.

I can't remember where I first heard it (pretty sure it was somewhere here) but I refer to the uair spike as the Chunky Dunk. Chunky Duuuuuuuuuuuuuunk!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think I've heard KOKingpin call it the Chunky Dunk.

 

[Strong Badam]

You're just saying words, Vino. You're welcome to think what you want, but coming to the conclusion that she's unviable less than 24 hours within its release is pretty silly, I feel. You're welcome to your opinion, but if you're expecting to unlock the potential of a significantly tweaked character so early, you probably aren't willing to put the time in to be good as any character. :/

These shots are heavier than the ones I had on my birthday.

 

[EmLeingod]

These shots are heavier than the ones I had on my birthday.

Since you're here, how is the DK and Ivy matchup now in 3.0? A lot of people thought it was heavily skewed in Ivy's favor back in 2.6b.

Thoughts?

 

[Strong Badam]

I thought Ivy won handily but it wasn't completely unwinnable. I went 1-2 with Reflex's Ivysaur in 2.6 and one of the games I lost was last stock. I felt like there were worse MUs in DK's spread.
Nowadays it should be relatively even. Ivy's still got range even if she has to commit, the biggest plus in DK's book is not having to deal with the instant neutral-game winner that was Razor Leaf.

Anyway IMO on the transition from 2.6b Ivy to 3.0 Ivy, I feel like 2.6 Ivy's design was so mindnumbingly straightforward that she undermined the players who mained her who were actually good at the game by allowing mediocre ones to do absurd things. Can't tell yet if 3.0 went too far or too little, but it seems pretty good to me. I'm sure in a later release if she's deemed particularly lacking in comparison to the rest of the cast she'll receive a small nudge here or there, but we'll most likely be trying to avoid another catastrophe with much more subtle changes than 2.6.

 

[Swann]

Speaking of the dunk, I'm sad that the ability to slow down the fall speed on uair was not brought back =(((

EDIT to avoid the double post: I'll be interested to play Ivy/DK with new Ivy. Leaf really did make the neutral game free like it did for Ivy vs any big character. CCing should negate fair/bair pressure early despite the damage increases, and DKs grab is still terrifying. Though I will say, DKs recovery seems MUCH easier to destroy thanks to changes on both sides.

I hope nobody takes a good look at the across-the-board nerfs to tether recoveries...

 

[Dng3]

I look forward to seeing videos of your matches this weekend Reflex (if you get a chance to play/record/upload them). I'm sure a lot of Ivy players are eager to see the new Ivy in action.

And umm uhhh yea so Ivy still doesn't have a 3rd victory. I just...want...will this be coming at some point? lol

 

[Swann]

CAN IT BE THE TEETER HANDSTAND PLEASE PRETTY PLEASE

 

[KariteSama]

I'm struggling at this point to figure out exactly what kind of character Ivy is in 3.0. The problem in 2.6 I feel like is that she could be whatever you wanted but I can't really feel out what she is going to be. I definitely need to spend more time with her because a lot of my attention has been sucked up by Roy but I'm just really having trouble with her.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

You're just saying words, Vino.

Technically, all of us are.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Sure, but, it's much more conducive to conversation to talk about individual abilities that are lost and gained as a result of the changes, like saying "B-Air's combo potential is way lower now, which really limits her offensive game," than to just say "B-Air is so much worse than it was."

Not that I agree with either statement above, but it makes for a good example of this point.

I'll be taking my recording setup to TO9, so as long as I'm allowed to hook it up, I should at least be able to record friendlies on my tiny television.