Solar Powered: Ivysaur Q&A/General Discussion Thread

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Ask your questions about Ivysaur here!

Questions and discussions related to Ivysaur in Project M belong in this thread

Social discussion belongs in the social thread, found here

If you want a video critiqued or you want to find videos of Ivysaur play go to the Video/Critiques thread here.[/QUOTE]

 

[Wretched]

He looks safe

People are going to start calling him gay and they will beg for nerfs. It happens with every safe and defensive character. Sheik and Marf are good examples. I hear people call them gay all of the time because of their lack of reliable approaches in comparison to other top/high tier characters.

He looks like a Marf with a slightly weaker spacing game and a few more options at longer distances. My guess is that getting behind him will be just as effective as it is against Marf. The only thing about Ivy is his OoS game. Looks like it could be godlike.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

He looks safe

People are going to start calling him gay and they will beg for nerfs. It happens with every safe and defensive character. Sheik and Marf are good examples. I hear people call them gay all of the time because of their lack of reliable approaches in comparison to other top/high tier characters.

He looks like a Marf with a slightly weaker spacing game and a few more options at longer distances. My guess is that getting behind him will be just as effective as it is against Marf. The only thing about Ivy is his OoS game. Looks like it could be godlike.

I think he's only really vulnerable from below because of how slow his Dair is. People will call his ability to heal himself OP or gay or broken or whatever, but his healing moves are either difficult to land (Dair, Usmash, Pummel [because his grab isn't that great]) or unsafe (Neutral B). Uair seems easy to land, and is part of what makes his juggling game, imo, his best aspect.

Getting behind him shouldn't be that effective. His Bair has good reach and not-horrible knockback. In fact it's become my favourite spacing tool with him, even though Fair is probably better.

His OoS game is definitely great. I really like Nair OoS.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

why does this have a poketrainer head when it could have this? :ivysaurbrawl:

 

[Wretched]

I disagree on his bair. It can be crouch canceled to ridiculous percents, and when you're close behind him, the hitstun from it allows for easy punishes, especially with it not having great startup. That's why I think his close range and OoS (when you're behind him) game might be lacking. He definitely has startup and cooldown issues which can be taken advantage of, just like Marf. A difference is that Ivy doesn't have nearly as good of a shield grab. When you're behind him, it only worsens those issues.

 

[RFrizzle]

He has a reallly awful mu against falcon

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

why does this have a poketrainer head when it could have this? :ivysaurbrawl:

idk, ask the admins

I disagree on his bair. It can be crouch canceled to ridiculous percents, and when you're close behind him, the hitstun from it allows for easy punishes, especially with it not having great startup. That's why I think his close range and OoS (when you're behind him) game might be lacking. He definitely has startup and cooldown issues which can be taken advantage of, just like Marf. A difference is that Ivy doesn't have nearly as good of a shield grab. When you're behind him, it only worsens those issues.

Hmm, I didn't take CCing into consideration lmao. Good points.

He has a reallly awful mu against falcon

What brought you to this conclusion? Could you elaborate?


Also, I'm going edit the thread title and make it the General Discussion as well.

 

[GunBlaze]

Agreed, which brings me to the Question...

Water vs Grass. You know where this goes.

 

[RFrizzle]

He can dthrow combo her just reallly awfully like worse than anyone else. I think he can zero death her off one grab and her moves seem really susceptible to his dd dumb stuff. Upair is super bad to her espescially if she gets put on a plat. All that on top of what appears to be an easy mode unDIable dthrow knee. Just IMO on account of her undeveloped metagame.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I'm glad that you mentioned the undeveloped metagame of Ivysaur. I'm sure that people will figure out counter-strategies for Falcon, and every other character , eventually.

Edit: Someone help me think of a clever title for this thread pls.

 

[GunBlaze]

Mother Nature's Agent?

 

[GHNeko]

He has a reallly awful mu against falcon

This.

Ivy his like mewtwo physics. Big and floaty enough to combo easyyyyyy. Light enough to die relatively low.

I feel that characters like Falcon will completely destroy Ivy when they get in.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

This.

Ivy his like mewtwo physics. Big and floaty enough to combo easyyyyyy. Light enough to die relatively low.

I feel that characters like Falcon will completely destroy Ivy when they get in.

Yeah but unlike Mewtwo, Ivysaur has good defensive options to stop Falcon from getting in. I can see Fair and Razor Leaf being good at keeping Falcon out if the Falcon is playing too recklessly. And if Ivy manages to get a grab at the right percent we set up a combo or juggling situation. Obviously getting the grab will be difficult, but I don't think it will be completely impossible.

Now, I hope you don't take my post the wrong way. I'm not trying to argue that the MU could be in Ivy's favour, or that it could be even, but it's definitely not awful. I play Mewtwo and Ganondorf in Melee, I know what awful MUs are like, and compared to stuff like Mewtwo vs Falcon/Marth and Ganon vs Sheik/Falco, I don't think Ivysaur is a limited enough character to have MUs that are that bad.

 

[GHNeko]

Nah. I don't think that this MU is heavily in Ivy's favor. I actually thing it's evenish before stages.

Ivy is pretty decent at keeping Falcon out, but it's not foolproof.

 

[metroid1117]

I have 5 matches of my Ivysaur vs. Vro's Falcon. From my (very limited) experience, this match-up is pretty hard for Ivysaur; Falcon doesn't have much problem getting around FAir or Razor Leaf because of his speed and Ivysaur is really easy to combo. On the flip side, if you get a grab, UThrow -> UAir works extremely well; it's very easy to get Solarbeams in this match-up if you land a couple of grabs. However, I need to play this match-up more to get a more educated opinion on it.

 

[Wretched]

Just wanna say you had some tight combos in there. Only had time for the first game but I can tell that once people learn how to combo with him and once people learn how to DI against him, I think his combos can get really elaborate yet effective.

 

[GHNeko]

Wretched. Come play my Ivy again, Kappa.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I have 5 matches of my Ivysaur vs. Vro's Falcon. From my (very limited) experience, this match-up is pretty hard for Ivysaur; Falcon doesn't have much problem getting around FAir or Razor Leaf because of his speed and Ivysaur is really easy to combo. On the flip side, if you get a grab, UThrow -> UAir works extremely well; it's very easy to get Solarbeams in this match-up if you land a couple of grabs. However, I need to play this match-up more to get a more educated opinion on it.

From those videos, it doesn't look like all that difficult of a MU. In fact, if it weren't for that unfortunate SD on your 3rd stock game 3, you would have won that game. And then you went on to win games 4 and 5 so if it weren't for the SD you probably would have won 3/5 of those games. Like GHneko said, that it looks like an evenish MU, expecially from that video.

I noticed that you didn't use Seed Bomb very often, imo it's a much better juggling tool than Uair because it goes higher while still allowing you to remain close to the ground and move around under the opponent. And you can B-reverse it for added mobility.

Also I noticed a few times you got hit by Dthrow -> Knee you DJ'd right before being hit by the Knee, do you think it would be possible to air dodge and avoid the knee or was Vro just mistiming the attack?

 

[Sunnysunny]

Damn this character's fun.

Not sure how many people know this yet but I found out how much Ivy heals directly corresponds with how much solar beam charge she gets.

It takes a total of 18 ticks to gain a full solar beam.
So with that in mind...

u-smash gains 9 ticks
u-air is 6 ticks
d-air is 5 ticks
Pummel is 1 tick
and synthesize is 1 tick per point healed as well.

Havn't tested if how much you heal stales or not, but if not you can gain a full charge of solar beam with 2 sweet spotted u-smashes or 3 sweet spotted u-airs. :3

 

[GHNeko]

Pretty sure healing doesn't stale.

 

[GunBlaze]

It does stale. While hitting the lab I found out there would be a moment where Ivy wouldn't heal at all, but the healed % did go down systematically.

 

[GHNeko]

Well I'll be. I've never noticed it then.

No wonder I've rarely healed over 100% despite me focusing on just that!

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Damn this character's fun.

Not sure how many people know this yet but I found out how much Ivy heals directly corresponds with how much solar beam charge she gets.

It takes a total of 18 ticks to gain a full solar beam.
So with that in mind...

u-smash gains 9 ticks
u-air is 6 ticks
d-air is 5 ticks
Pummel is 1 tick
and synthesize is 1 tick per point healed as well.

Havn't tested if how much you heal stales or not, but if not you can gain a full charge of solar beam with 2 sweet spotted u-smashes or 3 sweet spotted u-airs. :3

This is really neat information, I'm going to put it in the OP.

Edit: I figured I should point out that I made a video thread

I know it's early in 2.5's metagame and there won't be a lot of videos, but I figured there were enough videos (thanks to metroid having a bunch on his channel) to warrant getting them all in one place.

 

[GHNeko]

How plausible do you think an Ivy playstyle that focuses on healing and solarbeam setups would be?

It's the one I currently try to play.

 

[GunBlaze]

I just need to get a capture card to upload my (small) contributions to the metagame.

In other news, Nair is very good.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

How plausible do you think an Ivy playstyle that focuses on healing and solarbeam setups would be?

It's the one I currently try to play.

Focusing purely on healing and Solarbeam setups probably would do great at low or mid levels, but i you want to become really good at the game you'll most likely need to develop your spacing and juggling game to the point where your opponents have great difficulty getting in unless they have great mobility (i.e. Falcon, Sonic etc) and if you get an opponent above you they will take a ton of damage or maybe even lose their stock before they get back to the ground.

I think Ivysaurs true strength is her juggling capabilities. I've probably said this before but with Seed Bomb being able to to reach so high above you while allowing you to stay near the ground, in addition to Uair sending your opponent flying up while you plummet to the groud, Ivysaur probably has one of the best juggling capabilities in Smash, and definitely has the most mobility while juggling.

 

[Wretched]

Wretched. Come play my Ivy again, Kappa.

i was so bad tho

 

[GHNeko]

But you're not now. So let's revisit that CF v Ivy MU. <3

 

[Shell]

The amount of healing you get on U-smash, Uair and Dair is equal to the up-front damage you deal, that is, the burst damage before any poison over time is considered.

So as you stale those three moves they will heal a little less.

Pummel and Synthesis (nB loop) do a fixed 1% heal

As you guys have figured out, it takes 18 points to fill your solar beam.

Another cool thing you guys might not have figured out yet: Ivy's Uair has a meteor hitbox on the way down now.

 

[GunBlaze]

I knew. Too good.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

The amount of healing you get on U-smash, Uair and Dair is equal to the up-front damage you deal, that is, the burst damage before any poison over time is considered.

So as you stale those three moves they will heal a little less.

Pummel and Synthesis (nB loop) do a fixed 1% heal

As you guys have figured out, it takes 18 points to fill your solar beam.

Another cool thing you guys might not have figured out yet: Ivy's Uair has a meteor hitbox on the way down now.

I knew about the meteor hitbox, I just didn't think it was worth mentioning imo.

My Ivy playstyle revolves around the opponent being above me, and the meteor hitbox on the Uair doesn't help me accomplish that lmao.

I suppose it might be able to lead into grabs at low percent. hmmmmm.

 

[Shell]

It has a decent enough disjoint, sets up for U-smash at kill percents, and can accomplish some lulzy but surprisingly effective edgeguards.

 

[GHNeko]

Uair also Auto Cancels from the peak of a FH+DJ. Meaning you can use the meteor hitbox against unsuspecting opponents and combo into a grab or jab, or even a SH Nair.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I guess I'll have to play around with it some more

 

[yoshi8984]

Hey, my name is Timmy. I mainly use Ness, though I also use Ivysaur a lot. I love Ivy's ability to heal and his Solarbeam. I whiffed a Solarbeam a few times though, need to work on my accuracy. XD

I haven't played this game competitively as I've never gone to a Project M tourney, and my area's Smash scene is rather lacking. Still, I'll try to contribute.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Is Laval close to Montreal? There are a lot of good smash players for both Brawl and Melee in Montreal, and I know some of the Melee players, like Kage and Bam, play PM as well. You should try contacting them.

 

[yoshi8984]

Yeah, it is, but I'm only 14 and my parents worry about me. Well I've gone to 2 Brawl tourneys, 1st one I went with my brother and 2nd time I went alone. My parents will only let me go to tourneys if someone (they trust) brings me.

 

[Avalancer]

I really like him. I play him a lot, together with ZSS. Although I do think solar beam charge is a bit too easy and safe to do. Idea: When he gets hit while he's charging his solar beam, he loses all his charge. This will make it easy for fast characters and characters with projectiles to punish Ivysaur players that charge a lot. It would make it a bit more exciting.

 

[TheNumber47]

Hmm. When I approach the Falcon MU I usually just try to focus on getting Falcon offstage and gimping with bairs, his recovery is pretty easy to edgeguard and Ivy has strong horizontal throws. It's just an idea. I'll have to try this out on my friend who is a falcon main.

 

[B.W.]

Damn this character's fun.

Not sure how many people know this yet but I found out how much Ivy heals directly corresponds with how much solar beam charge she gets.

It takes a total of 18 ticks to gain a full solar beam.
So with that in mind...

u-smash gains 9 ticks
u-air is 6 ticks
d-air is 5 ticks
Pummel is 1 tick
and synthesize is 1 tick per point healed as well.

Havn't tested if how much you heal stales or not, but if not you can gain a full charge of solar beam with 2 sweet spotted u-smashes or 3 sweet spotted u-airs. :3

How sure are you that d-air gets 5 ticks? Solarbeam stuff was the first thing I tested and d-air was the first move I tested and I'm pretty sure I got Solarbeam in 3 d-airs.