Solar Powered: Ivysaur Q&A/General Discussion Thread

[Fortress]

I think that you can use your neutral B to do some janky shine-like kind of stuff, but I've only heard that. For 3.0 Ivy, I mean.

 

[Dng3]

Just watched JCaeser's stream...some things I noticed.

-Seed bomb falls much slower on the way down
-Fair and Bair attack speed slower -- looking like 2.5's speed
-razor leaf does indeed decelerate and its slow start up is really evident against lucas's pk freeze

Maybe it wasn't the best representation of the new Ivy but man, it was like watching a tired old war hero lol. And Ivy's weakness of being super easy to combo really stood out, especially against the lucas.

The light...it's...it's starting to fade.

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

Hopefully there's more good than bad as we get to see more 3.0, as long as she's still better than her 2.5 version I think we're good. I really like this character though, don't want to see her get torn apart due to "ease of play."

 

[Yeerk]

So Dng3, what you're saying is, you're waiting for 3.0b?

 

[Meme]

I haven't seen footage of 3.0 Ivy... Seeing everyone's observations makes me wonder how she'll turn out in this version.

I can sort of understand B-air and F-air's changes but the Neutral b Special cancel removal sounds kind of odd, well... We shall see what was tweaked on her moveset

On razor leaf I just hope she can still go after it

 

[Shell]

Ivy definitely has some creative and deadly new tools. I'm not going to sugar coat things, playing 3.0 Ivy is harder in many respects and this might cause some less dedicated mains to jump ship... but we've been putting a lot of work into keeping her good, fun for the player, and fun for the opponent.

I'm also excited to see some more unique Ivy play develop from player to player. As Reflex said there was very much a nearly "correct" way to play Ivy in neutral with Razor Leaf acting as a bit too much of a crutch for Ivy's deficiencies... she's slightly more rounded out in options now. Fair & Bair are indeed a bit slower, hearkening back to more deliberate v2.5-esque speeds but the stats are better in many ways, with Fair being better vs CC + a tiny bit safer in the air on cooldown, and Bair being better at getting people off stage and securing edgeguards / gimps.

Plus some other moves and traits have been buffed in ways that may not be immediately obvious from footage.

(Synth's land cancel is still in, fyi.)

 

[TreK]

I can tabula rasa the hell out of my playstyle with each release if I need to, but the one deciding factor is 'am I having fun playing Ivysaur'. So I'll just have to wait and see :V

 

[Meme]

Can't wait to get my hands on 3.0 already, aside from characters the things that hype me the most are engine/universal changes and hearing the commentary on VGBC really makes me anxious to know what's yet to be revealed.

As for Ivy's changes I'm looking forward to find out what's been tweaked/changed...

In the meantime I'll be looking for stream footage of Ivy's razor to see how it currently looks....

 

[KariteSama]

Unfortunately, I can't help but be skeptical about 3.0 Ivysaur. I was always in favor of toning down certain aspects of her 2.6 design, as long as she was improved in other areas, but I get the sinking feeling that she's going to be a crappy 2.6 Ivy - played mostly the same, only much less effective. Nerfing her more obnoxious strengths without compensating the loss with new strengths is just going to result in a crappy character.

I hope I'm proven wrong :-(

To me I think she is getting nerfed in areas that were overused but I'm hopeful that her incredible number of options is just going to shine through. Regardless they aren't going to stop balancing after 3.0 so this is going to be an ongoing conversation.

 

[jtm94]

Lurked past page or so to see how everyone feels about Ivy and whether buffs/nerfs were warranted or not.
I am quite relieved to see that razorleaf has been fixed a tad.

I am not here to bash Ivy, I enjoy messing around with her too, but razorleaf was far too good, and it was far from her best attack, but people are just abusing a singular move to the point where razorleaf into grab into fair/bair into anything starts to become played out. I'm not saying bread and butter combos shouldn't exist, but the guaranteed follow-ups were too hard to punish unless maining a character with a reflector(Mario/Pit/Zelda). Ivy had complete control of the ground AND air with razorleaf covering horizontal space, seed bomb covering vertical as well as some horizontal and up B can take out diagonal approaches as can the aerials. Something just had to give imo.

P:M knows what they're doing usually, they changed Snake's sideB as well because it was such a goto move at any time, ledgeguarding, fishing for the KO, zoning, setups. It detracted from all of his other moves, and likewise I hope to see Ivy's meta game advance in a really creative direction.

 

[JOE!]

but people are just abusing a singular move. I'm not saying bread and butter combos shouldn't exist, but the guaranteed follow-ups were too hard to punish. complete control of the ground AND air.

(had to )

 

[jtm94]

(had to )

I agree entirely about this, the space animals are far too good. the only thing keeping them from being hit is that, "they were that way in melee and they're difficult to learn." Falco's dair and Fox's usmash are super braindead to just throw out imo. But I digress, this is an Ivy thread.

 

[Dng3]

"keeping her good, fun for the player, and fun for the opponent"

Wish we could apply that to Jigglypuff. It's such a boring opponent to fight, and it's just as bad to watch a matchup with Jiggly. But yes, I'm liking what I'm hearing about Ivy and the possible new tools mentioned.

I have a feeling Ivy is going to be the new sonic in terms of going through many stages of tweaks which change her playstyle every update. It's amazing how much work the PMBR puts into balancing.

 

[JOE!]

I agree entirely about this, the space animals are far too good. the only thing keeping them from being hit is that, "they were that way in melee and they're difficult to learn." Falco's dair and Fox's usmash are super braindead to just throw out imo. But I digress, this is an Ivy thread.

They're not godlike, they just have a great design with some overtly great moves on top of them. For what its worth tho, fox's Usmash isn't as bad as Falco's dair in terms of... How to put it, "braindeadness".

Anywho, this is ivysaur talk, not spacies. So, what positive stuff do we have comfirmed for her?

 

[QraQ]

Ivysaur beats spacies imo.

I think that you can use your neutral B to do some janky shine-like kind of stuff, but I've only heard that. For 3.0 Ivy, I mean.

You could do that in 2.6b, a large reason why I consider Ivysaur good against spacies =X.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I disagree with the notion that Ivysaur beats space animals in 2.6b. Also, Synthesis hit is different in 3.0. Ooooooooh!

 

[KariteSama]

I disagree with the notion that Ivysaur beats space animals in 2.6b. Also, Synthesis hit is different in 3.0. Ooooooooh!

Is the knockback higher? It felt that way to me but I wasn't sure. You'll probably just say "You'll have to wait and see!"

 

[Dng3]

Some things noticed from watching Dynadash's stream (skimmed to Ivy matches):

-Fair seems to be way easier to DI out of, or the trajectory of the hit has been changed to where opponents move away
-Bair seems similar to 2.5 in that it has its knockback and angle, only when the tip of the vines hit though

Also, after reading a recent reddit discussion on why Ivy is OP and looking back on the discussion here I realized that a significant amount of Ivy's moves were in question, which lead to his dislike.

Fair, Bair, Nair, F-tilt, D-tilt, U-tilt, Down smash, Seed Bomb, and ofcourse Razorleaf. And the problem with all these? They all combo/killed too easy and some were too safe to use.

Its as if his whole playstyle with the current move set just doesn't mold together in a balanced way. 2.5 Ivy needed buffs, 2.6 is OP, and now 3.0 will be another rebalance. I really hope 3.0 will be that middle ground without dropping in the tier lists.

 

[ScaryPixel]

Hi, for those who don't know me I'm NakAttack, sometimes also known as Attack on Nakis if you've ever seen me on stream. I'm generally considered a top Ivysaur main in New York, mainly Long Island. I place well at our regional events, generally the highest among all the other Ivysaur players. I've been playing her since her release in 2.5, dabbled with her a lot in brawl- before Project M went public.

I had the opportunity to play 3.0 recently and I got to mess around with Ivysaur for a little bit. There's a couple of things that I'd like to talk about and hopefully someone working on the little cabbage might see it and be interested in what I have to say.

Before I begin, I'd like to mention that I've been expecting nerfs for her initially at 2.6b release; mainly to razor leaf and nair. Nair felt fine in 3.0, but razor leafs start up time was crippling slow. I know 2.6b start up time was so fast that she'd whiff it if she tried throwing another too soon, but I feel like there's a middle ground between that and what I played on 3.0. But other than that, she seems fine overall.

There's only one other thing that I thought changed for the worse: Seed bomb. I agree that her harassing you above the stage from the safety below needs to be addressed, but what it was reduced to in 3.0 was pitiful. My suggestion is to make seed bomb chargeable, and based on how long she were to charge it would affect it's height and angle, approximately around the same amount of time that Charizard could charge his sky jump, or Snake for his motors.


There's probably other things that have changed between 2.6b>3.0, but like I said, I played Ivy for only a little bit and wanted to share some of my thoughts on the changes and suggest my own ideas.

 

[Dng3]

Hi, for those who don't know me I'm NakAttack, sometimes also known as Attack on Nakis if you've ever seen me on stream. I'm generally considered a top Ivysaur main in New York, mainly Long Island. I place well at our regional events, generally the highest among all the other Ivysaur players. I've been playing her since her release in 2.5, dabbled with her a lot in brawl- before Project M went public.

I had the opportunity to play 3.0 recently and I got to mess around with Ivysaur for a little bit. There's a couple of things that I'd like to talk about and hopefully someone working on the little cabbage might see it and be interested in what I have to say.

Before I begin, I'd like to mention that I've been expecting nerfs for her initially at 2.6b release; mainly to razor leaf and nair. Nair felt fine in 3.0, but razor leafs start up time was crippling slow. I know 2.6b start up time was so fast that she'd whiff it if she tried throwing another too soon, but I feel like there's a middle ground between that and what I played on 3.0. But other than that, she seems fine overall.

There's only one other thing that I thought changed for the worse: Seed bomb. I agree that her harassing you above the stage from the safety below needs to be addressed, but what it was reduced to in 3.0 was pitiful. My suggestion is to make seed bomb chargeable, and based on how long she were to charge it would affect it's height and angle, approximately around the same amount of time that Charizard could charge his sky jump, or Snake for his motors.


There's probably other things that have changed between 2.6b>3.0, but like I said, I played Ivy for only a little bit and wanted to share some of my thoughts on the changes and suggest my own ideas.

I feel you on the seed bomb change. The slow descent looks really odd and I was surprised to see this change. I assume its to make the move "less effective", which seems to be the idea behind a lot of Ivy's attacks now, and remove the "hidden missile" nature of the move which can launch opponents up for combos and also put opponents into a stun state.

I was curious how you felt with Ivy's combo game in 3.0? I know you didn't spend too much time but did Ivy retain her ability to link moves together or has the style changed a bit? Thanks.

 

[QraQ]

Hi, for those who don't know me I'm NakAttack, sometimes also known as Attack on Nakis if you've ever seen me on stream. I'm generally considered a top Ivysaur main in New York, mainly Long Island. I place well at our regional events, generally the highest among all the other Ivysaur players. I've been playing her since her release in 2.5, dabbled with her a lot in brawl- before Project M went public.

I had the opportunity to play 3.0 recently and I got to mess around with Ivysaur for a little bit. There's a couple of things that I'd like to talk about and hopefully someone working on the little cabbage might see it and be interested in what I have to say.

Before I begin, I'd like to mention that I've been expecting nerfs for her initially at 2.6b release; mainly to razor leaf and nair. Nair felt fine in 3.0, but razor leafs start up time was crippling slow. I know 2.6b start up time was so fast that she'd whiff it if she tried throwing another too soon, but I feel like there's a middle ground between that and what I played on 3.0. But other than that, she seems fine overall.

There's only one other thing that I thought changed for the worse: Seed bomb. I agree that her harassing you above the stage from the safety below needs to be addressed, but what it was reduced to in 3.0 was pitiful. My suggestion is to make seed bomb chargeable, and based on how long she were to charge it would affect it's height and angle, approximately around the same amount of time that Charizard could charge his sky jump, or Snake for his motors.


There's probably other things that have changed between 2.6b>3.0, but like I said, I played Ivy for only a little bit and wanted to share some of my thoughts on the changes and suggest my own ideas.

Do you know what they did to synthesis exactly? Where it is in 2.6b just feels right to me.....

 

[Swann]

Can't wait for 3.0 Ivy.

If nothing else, I won't have to hear Yeroc ***** every time I select her. /callout

 

[ScaryPixel]

I feel you on the seed bomb change. The slow descent looks really odd and I was surprised to see this change. I assume its to make the move "less effective", which seems to be the idea behind a lot of Ivy's attacks now, and remove the "hidden missile" nature of the move which can launch opponents up for combos and also put opponents into a stun state.

I was curious how you felt with Ivy's combo game in 3.0? I know you didn't spend too much time but did Ivy retain her ability to link moves together or has the style changed a bit? Thanks.

I like that about seed bomb! It gives her an extra element to chain her moves together with; sometimes when you're the air you could shoot two seed bombs and most people are only paying attention for one.

um, from what I recall it was practically the same. Grab>upair combos were still possible, harder to do synthesis>aerial combos, her playstyle seems generally the same but now you're forced to fight without razer leaf way more often.

Do you know what they did to synthesis exactly? Where it is in 2.6b just feels right to me.....

not exactly, but generally it feels the same standing, but the Heal Hop requires a more precise timing to do it with no lag. Not sure why they would nerf Heal Hop though, I never considered it to be broken or worth adjusting.

 

[Ogopogo]

​

Changelog​

​

-F-Tilt endlag increased by 4 frames (IASA 35 -> 39).
-F-Tilt back hitbox and the innermost front hitbox have increased SDI multipliers (0.75x -> 1.05x).
-F-Tilt back final hitbox damage decreased to match earlier weak hits (7 -> 2).
-D-Tilt's 2nd hit now only pops up at the outer 2 hitboxes instead of outer 3 hitboxes.
-N-Air final hit KBG decreased.
-F-Air startup increased by 4 frames (1-10 -> 1-14).
-F-Air hitbox angles significantly decreased (from inner to outer, 85/90/90/95 -> Sakurai angle/70/70/80).
-F-Air damage slightly increased (from inner to outer, 8/8/12/12 -> 9/9/13/13).
-F-Air base knockback increased, knockback growth decreased.
-B-Air startup and endlag increased, made to be similar to v2.5 speeds and angles (from inner to outer, Sakurai angle/50/55/60 -> 38/38/30/30).
-B-Air knockback increased to v2.5 levels, and damage increased (8/7/4/3 -> 8/7/5/5)
-U-Air sweetspot knockback and damage increased (6 -> 7). Size decreased (4.75 -> 3.25), with the sweetspot deeper inside Ivysaur. Sourspot angle decreased (75 -> 70).
-U-Air no longer halts horizontal momentum on fall.
-U-Air meteor now two side-by-side hitboxes - maintains horizontal coverage but has negative disjoint on the bottom.
-D-Air cooldown increased by 3 frames.
-D-Air air/ground hits' damage increased, air/ground hits homogenized (5/6 -> 7/7)
-D-Air sweetspot size decreased (4.50 -> 3.50), with the sweetspot deeper inside Ivysaur
-Outer 2 of 5 grab-boxes on standing & pivot grab + outer 1 grab-box of 3 on dash grab are ground-only to alleviate CG issues.
-F-Throw knockback decreased to match 2.6 B-Throw.
-B-Throw knockback growth slightly increased.
-U-Throw angle increased (90 -> 100)
-U-Throw knockback growth decreased (72 -> 61).
-D-Throw knockback growth increased (50 -> 61)
-Neutral-B startup hit now a relatively weak windbox (still has a landing cancel).
-Neutral-B max charge lowered from 22% to 18%.
-Forward-B checks if existing leaf is out on Frame 1 instead of 15.
-Forward-B hit refresh rate slower (8 frames between hits -> 13), damage increased per hit (2 -> 3), knockback angle increased (45 -> 60).
-Forward-B slowed down to v2.5 timings; physics/floats ported from v2.5, but lasts 5 frames longer.
-Up-B sweetspot hitbox size slightly increased (4.5 -> 5)
-Up-B sweetspot damage increased (16 -> 18).
-Down-B seeds rise move slowly, do not go as high, and fall more slowly.​

Oh boy.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Beat me to it. I'll just post a more detailed one above me.

EDIT: And so I did, with my mod powers.

 

[ScaryPixel]

​

[collapse=Ivysaur]
- Increased aerial drift strength and decreased aerial friction
- Slightly decreased grounded friction
- Fall speed slightly increased, and fastfall speed increased
- Forward Tilt endlag increased
- Forward Tilt back hitbox and the innermost front hitbox have increased SDI multipliers
- Forward Tilt back final hitbox damage decreased to match earlier weak hits
- Down Tilt's 2nd hit now only pops up at the outer 2 hitboxes instead of outer 3 hitboxes
- Neutral Air final hit knockback growth decreased
- Forward Air startup increased
- Forward Air hitbox angles have been noticeably lowered to send further horizontally
- Forward Air damage increased by 1
- Forward Air base knockback increased , knockback growth decreased
- Back Air closer endlag mostly reverted to v2.5. Still allows a small window to short-hop Back Air autocancel
- Back Air send off hits have increased base knockback, and the inner trajectory has been lowered
- Back Air outer hitbox damage increased to 5
- Up Air sweetspot Knock back growth and damage increased. Hitbox size decreased, with the sweetspot deeper inside Ivysaur. Sourspot angle decreased
- Up Air no longer halts horizontal momentum on fall
- Up Air meteor hitboxes redone - now two side-by-side hitboxes that maintain horizontal coverage with negative disjoint on the bottom
- Down Air cooldown increased
- Down Air damage increased and homogenized against grounded and aerial targets to 7
- Down Air sweetspot size decreased, with the sweetspot deeper inside Ivysaur
- Grabs - outer 2 of 5 boxes on standing & pivot grab + outer 1 box of 3 on dash grab are ground-only to alleviate CG issues
- Forward Throw knockback lowered to match 2.6 B-Throw
- Back Throw knockback growth increased
- Up Throw angle increased to send slightly behind Ivysaur
- Up Throw knockback growth decreased
- Down Throw knockback growth increased
- Neutral-B startup hit is now a relatively weak windbox
- Neutral-B max charge lowered from 22% to 18%
- Aerial Neutral-B land-cancels only if the Special Button is not held
- Forward-B checks if existing leaf is out on frame 1 instead of 15.
- Forward-B hit refresh rate slower , damage increased per hit by 1, hit angle increased to send further vertical
- Forward-B Razor Leaf slowed down to v2.5 timings; physics/floats ported from v2.5, but lasts 5 frames longer
- Up-B sweetspot hitbox size slightly increased
- Up-B sweetspot damage increased to 18
- Down-B seeds rise slower, do not go as high, and fall more slowly as well
[/collapse]

That salad got chopped up.

To all my fellow Ivysaur mains: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5zGkqAWsWE

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I definitely encourage you to try and make the most of the new Ivysaur. You guys haven't even played with her yet.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I definitely encourage you to try and make the most of the new Ivysaur. You guys haven't even played with her yet.

Hey Reflex, I have a request. I'm not going to be playing Ivysaur anymore, because Mewtwo is finally here. Would you be so kind as to use your Mod powers to give control of the video thread to somebody else? I don't really want to be running something for a character that I don't play lol

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'll take care of it. Don't worry about it.

 

[Ogopogo]

I definitely encourage you to try and make the most of the new Ivysaur. You guys haven't even played with her yet.

Oh, I did. Uair chains are still hilarious.

Also, I have no idea how to properly play Mewtwo. Looking forward to learning him, and new Ivy, in the future. <3
Kinda glad they didn't really change Mario tho

 

[ScaryPixel]

It's not that bad. It'll take some getting used to but she'll still be decent at least.

 

[Ogopogo]

Tether nerfs and raised ceilings hurt her, too.

- Slightly raised the ceiling blastzone of Warioware
- Raised the ceiling blastzone of the following stages: Distant Planet, Yoshi's Island, Castle Siege, Green Hill Zone, Halberd, Rumble Falls, Norfair, Skyworld, Skyloft, Lylat, Metal Cavern, and Smashville
- Significantly raised the ceiling blastzone of Dracula's Castle

- Maximum tether hangtime was halved
- Forced Tether Jump upon reel-in no longer has IASA or refreshes a double jump

 

[Yeerk]

Upon opening Ivy changelog: http://www.myfacewhen.net/view/4683-never-again

But really, I'm going to stick with her. I've mained her since I started playing the game, and she's probably made me horrible at the game. I guess now's my chance to improve.

 

[Deleted member]

Okay, I'm going to be brutally honest - after testing her out for awhile, many individual changes don't seem to be too bad when looked at in a vacuum, but the sheer amount of changes is just...wow. I'm honestly not sure if you truly realized just how much all these things were going to add up. And I'm sorry, but you guys destroyed Razor Leaf. I'm not even joking. Yes, that move needed to be changed, but instead of toning it down, you took every good thing about it and stomped on it.

I'm going to keep playing and hoping for the best, but as of right now, I'm afraid my prediction has come true - Ivysaur has been over-nefed. I'm very disappointed.

 

[Dng3]

Biggest thing which ran through my mind first time playing 3.0......slow. It makes sense considering Fair, Bair, side tilt, Dair, and ofcourse razorleaf have all received a nerf in speed/execution.

It took a while to adjust and I can't believe this was basically what 2.5 Ivy was, and 2.5 Ivy was maybe even faster, BUT I won't be making any judgements yet. It's definitely harder to string together combos and Ivy feels less smooth overall to play (maybe only for the moment) but once I break old habits from 2.6 I hope it can only get better.

I remember Reflex saying 2.5 Ivy was pretty terrible, so I hope 3.0 Ivy has that potential that 2.6 Ivy had.

p.s. the "wind" effect on synthesis seems fun, but not really sure how it's going to be useful. It just pushes them away. The knock back from before seemed more useful =/.

 

[Yeerk]

Does Synthesis' wind box beat out characters' momentum? I mean, if a character is running at you with a SH aerial, will it successfully keep them away if their attack isn't already close enough to hit you? If so, I could see it working somewhat like a Mario cape for edgeguarding as well.

I already hate Razor Leaf. Granted, I only used Ivy a handful of times tonight. What can you even use it for? It's best pressure is at the end where it slows down, but if you don't throw it high enough in your jump, you'll get stuck and land on the ground with no momentum. And then it's too high to pressure anyone at that distance. I suppose you can throw it from the ground and run after it, don't know how reliable that is. I wouldn't mind the reduced pressure it brings if Ivy wasn't so slow to act out of it. Seems like too big of a nerf.

I realize I'm being very negative too soon. I'm really just expressing these thoughts for discussion.

 

[TreK]

I love the new Ivy. F me right ? xD
That windbox is my new favorite toy.

 

[Swann]

Ivy is still super good, don't jump ship just yet. I just spend a good part of the last 12 hours playing Ivy against basically every member of the cast with an emphasis on mewtwo, marth, kirby, falco, zero suit, wolf, ike, g&w, squirtle, and sonic.

The worst of it:
Leaves are no longer a lolfreeanything tool.
Ftilt is less safe.
Fair and bair are much slower.
Sweetspots on uair and dair are harder to land.
Chunky dunk is significantly less chunky -- negative disjoint
Fthrow lost it's amazing KB.
Seeds are slow.

The good news:
Bair has its prominent gimp angle back.
Fair -> fair -> fair -> fair -> fair -> reverse bair omfg
The wind box on neutral B is not what we're used to, but mess around with it because it's actually amazing. No shield stun, though, which is a bummer... gotta be careful.
Leaves still control hella space and people are still hella afraid of getting hit by them.
Ivy at the ledge is a scary ************.
Bthrow is basically as strong as the animation looks, now.
Ivy's Japanese voice is cute as hell.
ICYSAUR

Things have changed, but she's still Ivy. Leaves are probably the biggest thing for most people, and if you were a leaf-dependent Ivy before, you're not going to have much fun with that strategy any more. For me, the most annoying change is the slowed seed bomb speed. As of 3.0, I am having a hard time putting them to any use. I had some good stuff going for platform techchases, where a falling seed bomb can force certain options, but with the new speed, I couldn't catch anyone with them mid-match the way I occasionally could in 2.6b. Synthesis is hilarious, and I netted multiple kill setups with the new windboxes. They saved me more than a few times, too, by pushing the other guy along his way or back away from Ivy.

Last thing: bair is a ridiculously good move.

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

Out of the few games I played with Ivy last night, I could definitely feel the slow down of Leaf, Seeds and Fair. I'm going to keep playing and seeing what i can improve on, try using the new "windbox" more.

 

[hand]

Windbox is garbage. Don't lie to yourselves! There are ALWAYS options superior to weak nB, when you want to attack.