Solar Powered: Ivysaur Q&A/General Discussion Thread

[KariteSama]

I played Ivy and razor leaf is nerfed. Start up is muuuuuuch slower. There is also more landing lag on synthesis from fast fall :/

 

[JOE!]

So, what did she get in return?

 

[Dng3]

I played Ivy and razor leaf is nerfed. Start up is muuuuuuch slower. There is also more landing lag on synthesis from fast fall :/

The land cancel for synthesis was toned down too?! Where was the problem in that to begin with? *sigh*

The razor leaf nerf I understand but....Oh well, just hope its all warranted.

One day Fox and Falco...one day.

 

[KariteSama]

So, what did she get in return?

I didn't play long enough to get a good idea :/ I think she's still viable just not in the same OP zoning way. It was kind of ridiculous sometimes. As for the landing lag I don't know why that was changed. Maybe to make it less viable as an OoS combo starter?

 

[JOE!]

No, I mean why was she strictly brought down when there are/were still characters CLEARLY better that her overall without compensation for said nerfs?

( I mean, she is GREAT, but she isn't top)

 

[KariteSama]

No, I mean why was she strictly brought down when there are/were still characters CLEARLY better that her overall without compensation for said nerfs?

( I mean, she is GREAT, but she isn't top)

I don't know. Haha. I hope she can still keep up though. She was such a perfect character for me. I could focus on zoning and still combo without needing god-like tech skill. My fingers are not fast enough to play spacies...

 

[Ogopogo]

People complained about her a lot, perhaps. I dunno. She didn't need nerfing, imo. Except maybe a little less healing on uair/dair...

 

[Fortress]

I think the chief complaint against Ivy if there ever was one would be that she tends to feel 'canned' or just have too much reward without knowing too much tech skill. I mean, it's not a bad thing for a character to be accessible, but a character who outperforms like Ivysaur probably shouldn't be as 'easy' to play. Sounds stupid, but, that's kind of the vibe I get from Ivy detractors. I'm kind of biased towards 'saur, myself.

 

[Dng3]

Reflex had a good post about his opinion on Reddit (lazy to find it) and he basically said what Frotress just highlighted, that Ivy doesn't demand that high of a skill to gain results. I don't see a problem with easy to pick up characters either but I guess Ivy's too easy? I've heard some think Link is "brain dead" to play as well. Oh well, the rise to the top had to come to a halt eventually.

 

[Fortress]

To be fair, you have to know AGT, tether cancels, L-cancelling, wavelanding, janky **** with bombs, OoS tech, glide tossing, DACUS, and other various tricks to get the most out of Link. He requires more than a small amount of tech skill to be a threat with, but this isn't a Link discussion, so I'll leave my reply to the 'brain dead' thing at that.

 

[Ogopogo]

Okay, so there are characters that require less skill (i.e. Ivy) and characters that require more skill (i.e. Fox), and people are upset because Ivy players win sometimes. I know some people think that Melee is all about the tech skill but is there seriously such a problem with a character that someone without fast fingers (read: me) can play while not feeling inadequate?

 

[Fortress]

Well, no, the issue isn't that a character is accessible, more that Ivy's so good and so powerful and high in most tier lists without needing the kind of effort and practice that Link and Bowser mains need to make their low/mid-tier characters viable.

 

[Ogopogo]

Everyone needs practice for their characters, and Ivy doesn't necessarily need more or less than any other. It may be this way due to how the character is designed. I can't really think of any immediate ways to raise the skill ceiling. I don't know if nerfing will resolve it.

 

[Fortress]

Well, there's practicing with your characters, and having the tech skill and knowledge to actually be able to control the unrequited power and speed of Cap. Falcon. There's a big gap between the two. Ivy's an incredible fighter, but in my opinion (and others', which is where, again, most of the complaints against Ivy are), is too accessible for how incredible she is.

So, the way it stands, there really isn't a way to raise the skill level required to play Ivy, but to compensate for it, one of her core moves is being nerfed so that it's not a go-to and guaranteed plus against any matchup. Seriously, Razor Leaf is too perfect in 2.6b. It's not safe to shield, it's worse to take the hit, and even CCing it isn't a completely viable option. She's just being toned down in a few areas that let her still be very rewarding very quickly for players without the kind of tech knowledge as a Cap. player (not that anybody can't benefit from that, there's plenty of skill layered in under Ivy's core mechanics), but not to the point where she simply beats out a majority of the cast's options.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

So basically if a character is good without requiring you to press a billion buttons a second, they are OP?

That's ****ing stupid.

 

[Fortress]

Nobody said OP. 'OP' is a silly term, we shall not be using it here. If a character offers way too much without requiring much from the player in return, then they should be balanced. I've said it like fifty times now, so just read back (and actually read) if you want to hear it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Just so you know, I think it is perfectly healthy for there to be characters that don't require you to have great tech skill or press a million buttons a minute to succeed. Nobody has a bias against characters simply because they don't move much or ask for a different skill set; otherwise Jigglypuff would've been rehauled a long time ago. I'm all for characters like that, as I'd much rather focus on proper spacing and out-thinking my opponent than a constant need for tech skill.

The general consensus on 2.6 Ivysaur, my own included, is that she is incredibly formulaic and didn't require (or, worse still, even encourage) creativity or variety. Most of her best moves are applied in a very "if x, do y" fashion that is not fun to play against or thought-provoking to use.

She also has a number of unnecessarily safe, unnecessarily effective options that pose absolutely no risk to Ivysaur and give massive payoff. F-Air could send people up 14 degrees higher than Sheik F-Tilt, rendering DI pretty useless. Forward-B and F-Tilt shouldn't be good/safe enough to use in succession. Lots of options are "well, there's no negative to doing this, so I may as well," and that's not the kind of gameplay that I feel should be encouraged.

 

[KariteSama]

The thing about fox as a top tier character is you look at Mango's fox versus DJNintendo's fox and there is huge variation to their style of play. Whereas everyone I saw using Ivy (myself included) played her pretty much the same. She has way more options than people were using to the point that if she hadn't been adjusted her metagame would have grown completely stagnant.

Also, as far as Link goes...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pum74fN6EUA
Now tell me that isn't technical. Come on.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

The leaf's repeating hits can sometimes reset your attack's KB so they stay in place. You might be able to use this to your advantage in the right situation, but in general the easiest / safest thing to do would probably be to grab them and let the leaf pass through them before throwing.

i saw a match where strongnad was hit by a solar beam at kill percent into a razor leaf that reset his knockback and saved him. was indeed hilarious

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Just so you know, I think it is perfectly healthy for there to be characters that don't require you to have great tech skill or press a million buttons a minute to succeed. Nobody has a bias against characters simply because they don't move much or ask for a different skill set; otherwise Jigglypuff would've been rehauled a long time ago. I'm all for characters like that, as I'd much rather focus on proper spacing and out-thinking my opponent than a constant need for tech skill.

The general consensus on 2.6 Ivysaur, my own included, is that she is incredibly formulaic and didn't require (or, worse still, even encourage) creativity or variety. Most of her best moves are applied in a very "if x, do y" fashion that is not fun to play against or thought-provoking to use.

She also has a number of unnecessarily safe, unnecessarily effective options that pose absolutely no risk to Ivysaur and give massive payoff. F-Air could send people up 14 degrees higher than Sheik F-Tilt, rendering DI pretty useless. Forward-B and F-Tilt shouldn't be good/safe enough to use in succession. Lots of options are "well, there's no negative to doing this, so I may as well," and that's not the kind of gameplay that I feel should be encouraged.

This is the only time I've seen that reasoning used.

Everyone else that I've seen outside of this thread just complains about her being OP and broken and doesn't actually give any reasons for why she needs to be changed. At least, not any reasons that couldn't be applied, in full, to other characters.

 

[Fortress]

I... I don't get it. Nobody said she was OP, at all. At least, not in the past page that I jumped in on, which is where you started calling me out for thinking I called Ivy 'OP' or something. Never once did I mention that, anyway. I mentioned pretty much the same exact things; that Ivy's a character that rewards the player far too much for far too little effort, and whose moves feel canned and prefabricated. But, apparently you don't get that. Just to make sure you don't miss it this time, my reasoning for why Ivy needs a bit of an overhaul is this:

• Moveset that's entirely too safe against too many options
• Huge disparity between skill requirement and payoff

That's it. Two things. Plain and simple.

Christ.

 

[Dng3]

Some theorized changes for Ivy 3.0:

Guesses
Fair: trajectory of hit no longer set and will vary depending on which part of the move hits.
F-tilt: more end lag.
Down B: reduced knock back.
Bair: Something will happen to it. I've seen lots of complaints with it. Smaller range maybe?

Confirmed (may change as pre-release tradition)
Side-B: slower start up. Perhaps same start up as 2.5?
Neutral B: no longer land cancel-able. With the increased charges needed for Solarbeam, I thought the addition of land cancel was to kind of compensate, along with making synthesis somewhat able to combo.

Wishlist

• Razor Leaf able to land cancel. Would it still be as broken? I got the idea from watching the samus stream and seeing her missile shenanigans
• Some buffs. Anything.
• 3RD VICTORY POSE (I mean like, they went through the trouble to give Diddy a new one and he already had 3 to begin with. right? RIGHT?!)

 

[Fortress]

I'm fine with Ivy being nerfed to the point where not every single attack has a use and is a hard counter to any situation. It's as if she's the Swiss Army Knife of the cast; every one of her attacks seems like it's an answer to a certain situation. I mean, there's nothing wrong with having a move or two that's underused and potentially underappreciated because of how poor it looks. I mean, DACUS into Link's f-throw is great, and who uses f-throw instead of u/d-throw?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I... I don't get it. Nobody said she was OP, at all.

First of all, I never mentioned you specifically, just made a general statement based on what I had seen/experienced, which happened to come right after your post.

Secondly, in my last post I actually specified "outside of this thread"

 

[Dng3]

I don't know. I really enjoy playing characters where I'm able to utilize their whole move set, to an effective extent. I use to play Luigi in melee and I only remember his down-tilt and running attack being the moves to avoid using, and I loved that the rest of his move set was viable. Of course, it's down to personal opinion.

However, I feel there's a trend towards making moves more than just a wasted slot on a character. For example, Luigi now has a buffed up down-tilt in project m, and ganondorf finally got a more practical up-tilt, along with other characters with revamped moves such as pikachu, charizard, wolf, wario, etc.

I think it's great that the cast is being balanced with each individual move in mind since those are the limited tools as their disposal. I was happy to see Ivy with useful moves for different situations and that he wasn't something like Jigglypuff where B-air dominated her gameplay. It's that variety that makes a character enjoyable to play for myself personally.

 

[Yeerk]

I don't know. I really enjoy playing characters where I'm able to utilize their whole move set, to an effective extent. I use to play Luigi in melee and I only remember his down-tilt and running attack being the moves to avoid using, and I loved that the rest of his move set was viable. Of course, it's down to personal opinion.

However, I feel there's a trend towards making moves more than just a wasted slot on a character. For example, Luigi now has a buffed up down-tilt in project m, and ganondorf finally got a more practical up-tilt, along with other characters with revamped moves such as pikachu, charizard, wolf, wario, etc.

I think it's great that the cast is being balanced with each individual move in mind since those are the limited tools as their disposal. I was happy to see Ivy with useful moves for different situations and that he wasn't something like Jigglypuff where B-air dominated her gameplay. It's that variety that makes a character enjoyable to play for myself personally.

she*

.....sorry.

 

[Dng3]

lol ah yes, the whole Ivy is a girl thing. I always thought of Ivy as a male, and I'm sure everyone knows about two genders in the pokemon games. Sorry, he's a "he" to me =).

 

[Ogopogo]

The thing about fox as a top tier character is you look at Mango's fox versus DJNintendo's fox and there is huge variation to their style of play. Whereas everyone I saw using Ivy (myself included) played her pretty much the same. She has way more options than people were using to the point that if she hadn't been adjusted her metagame would have grown completely stagnant.

I remember this one guy at Pound 5.5 (I think it was Sweet) who played Ivy. His playstyle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E5H08jkOLc) was far different from Reflex's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJlGahoVYoU). Also, I think at some point Reflex did a fair to footstool to uair reset to usmash finisher. Go ahead, tell me that doesn't take some kind of skill.

 

[Fortress]

Yeah, but how many Ivy mains do you see busting that out on a regular basis? Answer: one.

 

[JOE!]

How young is Ivy's meta again?

How long has Fox been around to develop multiple styles?

 

[Dng3]

Yea I agree. It's not fair to say that we've seen all of what Ivy can do or that there's not even a little creativity in how to play Ivy.

 

[Yeerk]

I don't think comparing those two videos is a good representation of differing styles of play. For one thing, they are separate demos of the game. There's the matchup to consider too; CF vs Bowser. Also, no offense to Sweet, but I don't think he knows the character nearly as well as Reflex, and he's arguably using the better version of Ivy (2.6 over 2.5). edit: My main point is that Reflex's knowledge of the character is far better, and he's far and away the best Ivy we've seen in terms of confidence and skill, which has little to do with personal style.

On a side note, it looks like 3.0 synthesis has a shine-esque trajectory. Around 1:15:05 of this video (http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/481347550), Ivy uses B to get out of MK's chain grab. I'm going to limit my 3.0 speculation on that, because I'd hate to guess at everything and be wrong, but I hadn't seen anybody mention or notice that yet.

Can we also get word on whether Ivy's tether will be able to go throw Randall/The Ghost yet?

 

[KariteSama]

I remember this one guy at Pound 5.5 (I think it was Sweet) who played Ivy. His playstyle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E5H08jkOLc) was far different from Reflex's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJlGahoVYoU). Also, I think at some point Reflex did a fair to footstool to uair reset to usmash finisher. Go ahead, tell me that doesn't take some kind of skill.

I will advocate Reflex's skill every day of the week. He is a monster. But seriously, come on. They were against different characters, players and even on different versions of the game and they still used the same strategies. What do you mean far different? Reflex is just better although Sweet would still absolutely destroy me.

How young is Ivy's meta again?

How long has Fox been around to develop multiple styles?

Ya, Fox was a bad example. However, the nature of the smash community in its current form facilitates rapid development of character's meta-game especially when you have people like Reflex who are willing to share their abundant knowledge on a character to the entire community. Adding in the fact that there are more tournaments than there have been in quite a while and the simple fact that we are in the information means that Ivysaur's meta-game can and will grow faster than the original Melee cast did. So it's kind of hard to compare the two. It would be better to compare her to another character who received major overhaul. Maybe Ness? I haven't studied him as much but from what I've seen, there are a lot of people who play him very very differently from Eli to Gmaster.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, "too easy" goes hand-in-hand with the issues I brought up. Her options are so safe and effective that Ivysaur doesn't really have a distinct "feel" in 2.6. She's not forced to play a primarily defensive game, she doesn't find it difficult to get people off her when they get inside, she doesn't require much effort to string effective combos together, she's at almost no risk while managing to create serious stage control with her projectiles and safest attacks...If she wants to go in, she makes it happen. If she wants to combo, it's no problem on most of her attacks. If she wants to wall you, she's quite good at it. If she wants to recover or edgeguard, she's among the best there.

There's no significant weakness to be had in terms of fundamentals, despite the fact that she's supposed to be a character geared toward defense and well-timed spacing options (something that her middling speed/low mobility usually facilitates by itself in Smash games). Her range isn't there to get in and dominate, it's to make people think twice about approaching, but the low endlag on some things allows those moves to be for whatever they want (hence the "move -> same move" situation so common in Ivysaur play). It would be better for her to be geared toward a specific playstyle than to just allow whatever playstyle you feel because everything is safe and at least marginally effective.

In terms of metagame growth, KariteSama is spot-on; there wasn't nearly as much of a gathering for information in the first half of Melee's lifetime, but it has become so commonplace for people to gather and share their thoughts that there's never a shortage of ideas. Also, if we're comparing metagame growth, think about the major weaknesses that people had to get around. Dedede chaingrabs in Brawl? Captain Falcon's horrible recovery in Melee? Ivysaur doesn't really have any pressing issues, and while greater skill and understanding obviously leads to better play, the current situation has it so that people always "get" Ivysaur. The stuff they should be doing to win is largely apparent and largely accessible even to low-level players, which is frustrating in that greater knowledge of Ivysaur generally means "do the same stuff but better." This character deserves more than that, IMO.

 

[Ogopogo]

I will advocate Reflex's skill every day of the week. He is a monster. But seriously, come on. They were against different characters, players and even on different versions of the game and they still used the same strategies. What do you mean far different?

"used the same strategies." That's akin to saying that since both Mango and M2K use uthrow to uair there's no difference in their style. Sweet was playing a character that, if wanted, can camp pretty well. He did that. A lot.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

"used the same strategies." That's akin to saying that since both Mango and M2K use uthrow to uair there's no difference in their style. Sweet was playing a character that, if wanted, can camp pretty well. He did that. A lot.

No, it's not the same thing. Once you get the grab, U-Throw -> U-Air is standard procedure because nothing can be done about it. This situation comes after all the footsies and spacing where people have outmaneuvered each other and made a bunch of individual decisions to get to that point.

The issue being brought up with Ivysaur is that the neutral position is played in the same way no matter what. If there's not a Razor Leaf out, it's in your best interest to throw a Razor Leaf, no matter what your opponent is doing. There really aren't any situations where you would say "throwing out a F-Air in this situation could really backfire on me." Ivysaur doesn't really have to change her gameplan based on what the opponent is doing, so instead of people outsmarting each other, the neutral game involves the opponent outsmarting Ivysaur, and that's not enjoyable for opponents or thought-provoking for the Ivysaur player.

 

[Dng3]

Although saddened to hear, I do understand the reasoning behind toning down Ivy. I'm just concerned because at this point it's essentially saying some of the buffs made to her in 2.6 were a mistake and it made her too dominating, where as in 2.5 Ivy was needing some improvements.

So will we be seeing a balance between the two versions in terms of her moves such as Fair/Bair/Side B/F-tilt/etc.?

 

[Ogopogo]

Razor Leaf now decelerates at the end, for a little bit of added pressure (but less range maybe)

 

[Vickyboi]

Reflex, is the doublejump refresh thingy fixed in 3.0?

 

[Deleted member]

Unfortunately, I can't help but be skeptical about 3.0 Ivysaur. I was always in favor of toning down certain aspects of her 2.6 design, as long as she was improved in other areas, but I get the sinking feeling that she's going to be a crappy 2.6 Ivy - played mostly the same, only much less effective. Nerfing her more obnoxious strengths without compensating the loss with new strengths is just going to result in a crappy character.

I hope I'm proven wrong :-(