Solar Powered: Ivysaur Q&A/General Discussion Thread

[Skimchee]

So true. I teache my friends the ivy match-up so the can own other pocket ivys and I'm able to fight against player who knows the match-up. Better training for me.

EDIT: Not sure if this is a known technique, but i found out, that Ivy got a chaingrab on some chars. Nothign specials against floaties obviously, but for example against Falco, he deals 0-70% with nearly no problem. Wolf on FD goes to 90%. Just grab and DThrow. The First Regrab has to be frame-perfect i guess (had to train alot with 1/4 speed) and after 40% you have to walkgrab/dashgrab. BF-Plattforms will interrupt (Falco) by 70%.

Tested on Falco, Fox, Wolf, Sheik and Falcon (shiek won't work well), at the moment just against CPUs but I'll try against humas later, too.

They can actually DI away from Ivy to get out of that pretty early. Try jump-cancelling your grabs into up-throws on fast fallers around 15ish%. You can literally follow any DI since Ivy's standing grab range is ridiculous. They can attack/DJ out of it around 70% or so, but it is still a good chunk of damage and charge (assuming you pummel on the grabs).

Btw, SHFF synth --> up-smash is a good mix-up for a charge --> solar beam setup.

 

[Nequ]

They can actually DI away from Ivy to get out of that pretty early. Try jump-cancelling your grabs into up-throws on fast fallers around 15ish%. You can literally follow any DI since Ivy's standing grab range is ridiculous. They can attack/DJ out of it around 70% or so, but it is still a good chunk of damage and charge (assuming you pummel on the grabs).

Btw, synth --> up-smash is a good mix-up for a charge --> solar beam setup.

Yeah I'm so sorry. I had a lot of faith in CPU's DI but my firends prooved me wrong

 

[QraQ]

To be honest, I hate getting solarbeam usually. It takes away a component (synthesis) I use for inside pressure. It's just safer to use solarbeam vs mid-large size characters and just synthesis comboing small characters.

 

[Skimchee]

To be honest, I hate getting solarbeam usually. It takes away a component (synthesis) I use for inside pressure. It's just safer to use solarbeam vs mid-large size characters and just synthesis comboing small characters.

I usually try to just get off as many solar beams as possible knowing that it replenishes my synth afterwards. As long as you don't hold a charge for too long, you can get the benefits of both moves. I usually use my synth for defense through getting characters off of Ivy though, so your take on that might be different. Either way, super useful move

 

[QraQ]

I usually try to just get off as many solar beams as possible knowing that it replenishes my synth afterwards. As long as you don't hold a charge for too long, you can get the benefits of both moves. I usually use my synth for defense through getting characters off of Ivy though, so your take on that might be different. Either way, super useful move

Yeah I guess that's a better way to put it. I don't hold on to it for long at all. I usually just use it for % or to force off the stage. I've been doing a lot of solarbeam regrabs to the ledge. It destroys anyone with a tether if they decide to tether the ledge when Ivy is chillin on it with solarbeam.

Edit: Also, synthesis is just ridiculously good, better than shine imo. The easiest/best way to use it is just to end all prolonged aerials with it. It's like N64 Z-canceling lol.

 

[Nequ]

I think it's like N64-Shine except for the Momentum-cancling. I'm training to use it more often since i use automatcly nair instead of synthesis

 

[QraQ]

Yeah Nair is the safe inside substitute to synthesis. It just requires much more commitment than synthesis and doesn't set up as well.
I want to post a video showing how effective I've found it to be but I dont want to dayview it before I play in this tourney this weekend lol.
I might just do a training mode tutorial to show it off.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

the fact that ivysaur has a standing chaingrab on some characters that regenerates his health is pretty stupid
start using it guys

 

[QraQ]

the fact that ivysaur has a standing chaingrab on some characters that regenerates his health is pretty stupid
start using it guys

The standing chaingrab doesn't work well at high % (60+) on most characters, and at anything lower than 30% they can shake the grab before 1 or 2 leeches. It's really just better to use her exceptional grab range, speed and duration for the grab combos she can do to 80% of the cast.

 

[Sudai]

Yeah imo you're better off just doing grab combos and leeching life with UAir/DAir out of the throws. The damage happens faster and you heal more. The combos work to the same percents as the chain grabs too so w/e.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

perhaps on fd, but start pissing off your friends by doing standing chaingrabs whilst standing on a platform

 

[TreK]

I see Ivy getting pretty high on those tier lists in the general discussion subforum, which makes me happy I chose her, but I sense a nerf coming for PM3.
Whatever, the main reason I play her is that they put some utterly epic sound effects on her sweetspots and it feels so much more rewarding to land them. As long as this stays, I'm happy :V

 

[QraQ]

I see Ivy getting pretty high on those tier lists in the general discussion subforum, which makes me happy I chose her, but I sense a nerf coming for PM3.
Whatever, the main reason I play her is that they put some utterly epic sound effects on her sweetspots and it feels so much more rewarding to land them. As long as this stays, I'm happy :V

As I'm playing her, I realize how more and more over-powered she is. But she has a learning curve to get there imo. Wavebouncing synthesis for shield pressure just feels unstoppable.

 

[Sarix]

I've been enjoying the Ivysaur buffs since I play her as a secondary. I feel like her silly Synthesis pressure is a good balance to allow her to switch gears from a primarily defensive zoning play style to pressuring her opponent when she has the advantage. In some ways she reminds me of Baiken from GG where you want to have that strong defensive core but she has good options to go on the offensive.

 

[Dabuz]

I have a tournament tomorrow, been playing Ivysaur since 2.6 and feel pretty confident with him, but my MU knowledge isn't great.
So far, i'm pretty sure i'm gonna have to fight against good players in a few of these MUs and would loooove a quick summary on them.

Snake
DK
Luigi
Shiek (This one I need advice on especially, it's one of my most inexperienced MUs and will probably be the most common MU I face)
Marth
Fox
Falco
Sonic
Ganondorf

 

[Skimchee]

I have a tournament tomorrow, been playing Ivysaur since 2.6 and feel pretty confident with him, but my MU knowledge isn't great.
So far, i'm pretty sure i'm gonna have to fight against good players in a few of these MUs and would loooove a quick summary on them.

Snake
DK
Luigi
Shiek (This one I need advice on especially, it's one of my most inexperienced MUs and will probably be the most common MU I face)
Marth
Fox
Falco
Sonic
Ganondorf

What AT's do you know with Ivy (and P:M in general)?

ex: SSFF n-b, JC grabs, wavelanding, etc.

EDIT: I only ask because I'd like to know if I should explain any AT's before I start flinging terms around, not as an insult or anything!

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I have a tournament tomorrow, been playing Ivysaur since 2.6 and feel pretty confident with him, but my MU knowledge isn't great.
So far, i'm pretty sure i'm gonna have to fight against good players in a few of these MUs and would loooove a quick summary on them.

Snake
DK
Luigi
Shiek (This one I need advice on especially, it's one of my most inexperienced MUs and will probably be the most common MU I face)
Marth
Fox
Falco
Sonic
Ganondorf

Snake is a fairly straightforward Matchup. You have to be paying attention to where he plants his mines, so you can blow them up with Razor Leaf. Razor Leaf is also great at keeping control of grenades. At low percents, take every opportunity you can to get a grab, you can get amazing damage and solar beam charge on him out of grabs (I'm talking 50+ damage, depending on their DI). Snake is a character with great stage control, but Ivysaur has that too. At mid percents keep him pinned down in a small place with Razor Leaf and Seed Bomb, and when he's vulnerable go for a Fair or Nair to start a combo. Practice juggling with Seed Bomb as well, Seed Bomb and Upair make Ivysaur comparable to Brawl MK or Melee Marth when it comes to Juggling, and if you do it right you can cover literally every option they have when they're above you (including trapping them into a position where you can kill them with Solar Beam and Razor Leaf).

DK is very similar to the Snake Matchup, except you don't have to worry about grenades, mines and other projectiles. It is the easiest matchup in the game (imo). Bombard him with Seed Bombs and Razor Leafs to force him into shield, and then grab him and proceed to do an easy 80% (usually getting Solar Beam charged and finishing off with that. In this matchup you really just need to outspace him with Razor Leaf and Fair, and make sure you have your setups into Solar Beam and Vine Whip down. He punished really hard though, so be careful about making mistakes.

I don't really have a lot of experience with Luigi, so I can't help you there.

Sheik is one of my worse Matchups, all I can tell you to do is watch out for Needles, as they demolish Razor Leaf, and when recovering, try and avoid slow falling Nairs and Bairs, as they can really screw up tether recoveries.

Marth is one of Ivysaur's tougher Matchups, but it's definitely possible. Marth has a lot of range, which makes one of Ivysaur's best traits less effective. He can also edgeguard you really well if he knows how, but few Marths do so I wouldn't worry too much about that. Make good use of the Belly hitbox on Upair to demolish his one dimensional recovery (will usually trade, so there isn't too much risk of SDs).

Fox is another character that can gimp Ivysaur really well. Shine is really deadly offstage, so if you see them jumping off to kill you with it, try and hit them with Fair before they get a chance, and then recover before they can so you can edgeguard them. Fox is extremely combo-able, so make use of that, as well as getting really easy gimps on him.

Falco, like Fox, gets combo'd really well and can be easily gimped. He can't gimp us as easily as Fox can, but he can edgeguard us well if the player knows how (they rarely do though). If they decide to play it defensive, the matchup becomes much more difficult, as Lasers are much better than Razor Leaf and are much more difficult to deal with.

Sonic. Sonic Sonic Sonic Sonic Sonic. DO. NOT. GET. SENT. OFF. STAGE. EVER. Sonic's Spring gimps Ivysaur with no effort whatsoever. If you get sent offstage, and they know that, you are dead. However, because of how much he was nerfed in 2.6, Sonic is no longer impossible to deal with. You can keep him out with Razor Leaf and Fair, while also randomly shooting Seed Bombs to try and limit his movement.

Ganondorf is another character in the vein of Donkey Kong and Snake, in that they get combod to hell and back by Ivysaur, but have strong punishes that don't make the matchup impossible for them. The main thing to watch out for with Ganondorf is Flame Choke. You can stop Flame Choke with pretty much any disjointed move, I prefer using Razor Leaf and Ftilt, but Fair and Bair work really well to. The biggest thing to keep in mind is Aerial Flame Choke. If you don't tech it, he gets a free Fsmash. This is a problem, because it's a very deceptive move and difficult to tech. When he grabs you, he slams you to the ground, and then you bounce up, and hit the ground a second time. Make sure you tech the SECOND time you hit the ground, not the first.

Overall, the main thing to keep in mind in ALL of these matchups is that Razor Leaf is a pain in the ass for the other character to deal with, unless they're Sheik with a full thing of Needles. Make sure you are effective with Throw Combos and Upair chains, and practice Upair gimps as well. Seed Bomb is an extremely useful, but criminally underused move. Make use of it.

Good Luck Tomorrow Dabuz! Is the tournament Crossfire?

 

[Dabuz]

What AT's do you know with Ivy (and P:M in general)?

ex: SSFF n-b, JC grabs, wavelanding, etc.

EDIT: I only ask because I'd like to know if I should explain any AT's before I start flinging terms around, not as an insult or anything!

Ugh, I don't know the terms, but I know all the basic stuff like wavedashing, fast fall neutral b, jump canceled grabs, ect. I'll be able to keep up with any terms you use.

TY Shiny Mewtwo, and yeah, it's crossfire! ^^

BTW, you mentioned 50%+ combo out of a throw, what exactly are the combos? I'm assuming they start with upthrow.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Ugh, I don't know the terms, but I know all the basic stuff like wavedashing, fast fall neutral b, jump canceled grabs, ect. I'll be able to keep up with any terms you use.

TY Shiny Mewtwo, and yeah, it's crossfire! ^^

BTW, you mentioned 50%+ combo out of a throw, what exactly are the combos? I'm assuming they start with upthrow.

Depends on the character, mostly. Against Snake, Ganon and DK I like Dthrow -> Upair until they DI out of reach -> Vine Whip (Solar Beam if it's charged), or I just follow them around below and try to juggle with Upairs and Seed Bomb.

Against Spacies, iirc there's a chain grab with Upthrow, but I could never pull it off so you'll have to ask someone else about that. If I get the Grab at low percent I usually go for Uthrow -> Usmash -> Uairs, or sometimes Uptilt after the Usmash before Uairs if I think I can get it and keep the combo going.

Against lighter characters it's usually Dthrow -> an Upair or 2, then whatever I think I can get.

Most of my combos are improvised on the spot, not planned out in advance tbh. I just keep hitting them until I can't hit them any more.

Oh also I think I forgot to mention in my previous post that Nair is amazing.

 

[Sudai]

Yeah Ivy's combos are super dependent on enemy DI. Mostly revolve around FAir/UAir and ending with Up-B/Solar Beam/Seed Bombs. Its something you have to play around with a lot, not something that can really be explained since a character's weight and DI greatly affect it.

Some smaller tips for comboing though:
-If a floaty DIs away from your throw at low percents, try to go for a forward moving FAir and it should put you right below them for a UAir right after.
-If they don't DI much you can still do the same but its harder imo, I usually just go for UAir there.
-Near the edge I like to RAR in to a BAir to end my combos instead of standard finishers since it puts them in a bad position and sets up for edge guarding which is super good with Ivy.
-On fastfallers there's a health range that you can FAir > Dash > JCUSmash. It varies a bit by weight but its usually around 20-50%
-Near the edge against fast fallers around 50-80%ish if the DI off the stage from a U/DThrow you can FAir > DJ > DAir spike them really easy. Between 20-50%ish you won't need the DJ.


Ivy's combo game feels a lot like Falco's imo. Not necessarily in the way they combo but in the fact there's no real cookie cutter combos, your combos flow based on %, weight, and DI unlike a character like Fox who can just NAir > NAir > NAir > USmash or UThrow > UAir > UAir pretty much any floaty.

 

[Dabuz]

Fair after dair? That's awesome.

I know vs. spacies I can do backthrow -> razor leaf or nair (depending on DI) for a kill at basically any %.

Thanks, i'll definitely remember this stuff for the tourney, wish me luck! :D

BTW, what should I do about stages...or what are standard PM toureny stages? lol

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Fair after dair? That's awesome.

I know vs. spacies I can do backthrow -> razor leaf or nair (depending on DI) for a kill at basically any %.

Thanks, i'll definitely remember this stuff for the tourney, wish me luck! :D

BTW, what should I do about stages...or what are standard PM toureny stages? lol

From the Crossfire Thread

Starters [5 stages]

*Smashville
*Pokemon Stadium 2
*Battlefield
*Green Hill Zone
*Skyworld
Counterpick: [11 singles/11 doubles]
*Castle Siege
*Dreamland 64
* Dracula's Castle
*Skyloft
*Fountain of Dreams
*Final Destination
*Wario Ware
*Norfair
*Metal Cavern
*Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
*Yoshi's Story (Singles ONLY)

For starters, I'd suggest always trying to go for Smashville, because you can get extra Solar Beam charge from the balloon. PS2 is also an all around good stage.

For counterpicks, I always like to go with Yoshi's Island: Brawl for the Shy Guys, same as the balloon on SV but more often. The Slants also mess up people a lot as well.

I also like Big Stages, like Dracula's Castle and FD, because it gives me more room to move around and camp with Razor Leaf and Seed Bomb. Small stages like Yoshi's Story and Wario Ware can be good for the same reason that YS is good for Marth in Melee, because our range makes us effective at trapping the opponent in a small space.

 

[Sudai]

Basically you want big stages against slow, high range characters (Marth, DK, ect) and small stages against fast, short range characters (Fox, Falco, CFalc, ect) or characters with a better projectile game than Ivy (Falco, Pit, Mario, ect). I really like Metal Cavern for the small stages because it gives a small stage with huge blast zones so your gimp and recovery potential aren't hurt like they normall are on smaller stages. Wario Ware is good against characters that have a poor vertical game (Peach, Jiggly, ect) as it allows you to do nasty UAir combos but you're basically sacrificing your gimp and recovery potential for vertical combo potential.

I agree with Jigglysir on Smashville/Yoshi's (Brawl). If I was striking on that list, I would be fine playing on any of the maps with SV being my preference. Green Hill Zone being my least preferred against the majority of the cast. I would only want to play there against characters like CFalc who need a lot of room to do their combos but even then I wouldn't take it since the blast zones are really close in negating a lot of our recovery.

For counter picks I like Dreamland 64 as my big stage, FD if it gets banned or Dracula's castle against projectile heavy characters when I still want a big stage. I already explained my preference on the smaller stages.





I don't understand why they have PS2 as a starter and PS1 no where on the list. Seems like PS1 is more neutral imo but w/e

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I don't understand why they have PS2 as a starter and PS1 no where on the list. Seems like PS1 is more neutral imo but w/e

Probably because the PMBR removed PS1 from the first page of Stages.

 

[Sudai]

Ahh, I didn't realize that had happened. Either way its silly.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Ahh, I didn't realize that had happened. Either way its silly.

I agree

I spent many a day berating JCaesar on Skype about it.

Even after he told me it wasn't his decision.

 

[Sudai]

Poor JCZ, we always bug him about stuff he doesn't have control over. lol

ROBros4lyfe

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Poor JCZ, we always bug him about stuff he doesn't have control over. lol

ROBros4lyfe

He just ignores me whenever I bring up Mewtwo now

 

[Skimchee]

Ugh, I don't know the terms, but I know all the basic stuff like wavedashing, fast fall neutral b, jump canceled grabs, ect. I'll be able to keep up with any terms you use.

TY Shiny Mewtwo, and yeah, it's crossfire! ^^

BTW, you mentioned 50%+ combo out of a throw, what exactly are the combos? I'm assuming they start with upthrow.

(to elaborate on the standing up-throw confusion)-

On spacies, you can chain them in the mid-teen percents. This is accomplished by up-throwing, reading their DI, and following it with a JC grab. Your standing grab alone could cover most of their DI options, but if they DI away from you, you will be able to dash --> JC grab them again. If you add pummels into the mix, you can usually rack them up to 70% or so and get about 4-5% worth of charge. Just know that they get out of hitstun before they near the ground at the 70% mark, so that is when you'd want to do your up-air/f-air shenanigans. It's basically a free 50%+ since literally all of their options are able to be answered until they get that double jump opportunity.

....Oh and if you have them by the edge, you can F-throw them off the stage to force an easily gimped recovery (unless you're at wario ware or something where it will just kill them). F-throw is underused but is actually a really nice GET-THE-F***-OFF-MY-STAGE move

EDIT: A suggestion for stages- Ivy has an advantage on FoD in many cases. It's where I take Squirtle, Sonic, Zelda/Sheik, and Fox (if I can't get FD). I'd give it a try against someone and see if it works for you, too!

 

[Sudai]

I still prefer UThrow > USmash > UAir combos over the CG. You can get them to the same percent, higher if there's platforms and you wind up getting more solar beam charge out of the USmash/UAirs if you sweet spot them.

 

[Skimchee]

I still prefer UThrow > USmash > UAir combos over the CG. You can get them to the same percent, higher if there's platforms and you wind up getting more solar beam charge out of the USmash/UAirs if you sweet spot them.

Well, different styles advance the metagame!

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Well, different styles advance the metagame!

And make it more difficult for others to figure out counters

 

[TreK]

I've got something that might interest you guys.
If you toss a razor leaf on a rising platform (Dreamland in example), the leaf will stop going forward and act as a wall. It takes a bit of practice but is definitely worth it. If the opponent gets caught in it, they'll have a much harder time getting out of the move, and you're free to do whatever you like to them.

 

[GHNeko]

Ahh, I didn't realize that had happened. Either way its silly.

PS1 is wack on a stick tho.

Sent from my SGH-T699 using Tapatalk 2

 

[TreK]

I just realized usmash tipper dealt 25% thanks to leech seed.

I think I'll use it much, much more now. Anything into usmash is basically my best combo now.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I just realized usmash tipper dealt 25% thanks to leech seed.

I think I'll use it much, much more now. Anything into usmash is basically my best combo now.

Anything into Usmash into Solar Beam though.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You can mash out of the sapping damage, though, I believe.

 

[Sudai]

Yeah USmash is amazing. On top of that dmg, you get solar beam charge. Always try to use that. Learn UAir belly slam in to USmash set ups.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I would advise against that in a lot of cases, as U-Air meteor isn't safe on shield and is negatively disjointed. When you're above someone like that, you could just use F-Air and get good follow-ups on hit without putting yourself at risk.

 

[Sudai]

You underestimate the platform mix ups that can lead to falling UAir.