Solar Powered: Ivysaur Q&A/General Discussion Thread

[Swann]

Most stages with platforms, really (except Skyworld because screw that noise). Brinstar if they're dumb.

 

[CptnFalcon4Prez]

I have 5 matches of my Ivysaur vs. Vro's Falcon. From my (very limited) experience, this match-up is pretty hard for Ivysaur; Falcon doesn't have much problem getting around FAir or Razor Leaf because of his speed and Ivysaur is really easy to combo. On the flip side, if you get a grab, UThrow -> UAir works extremely well; it's very easy to get Solarbeams in this match-up if you land a couple of grabs. However, I need to play this match-up more to get a more educated opinion on it.

From those videos, it doesn't look like all that difficult of a MU. In fact, if it weren't for that unfortunate SD on your 3rd stock game 3, you would have won that game. And then you went on to win games 4 and 5 so if it weren't for the SD you probably would have won 3/5 of those games. Like GHneko said, that it looks like an evenish MU, expecially from that video.

I noticed that you didn't use Seed Bomb very often, imo it's a much better juggling tool than Uair because it goes higher while still allowing you to remain close to the ground and move around under the opponent. And you can B-reverse it for added mobility.

Also I noticed a few times you got hit by Dthrow -> Knee you DJ'd right before being hit by the Knee, do you think it would be possible to air dodge and avoid the knee or was Vro just mistiming the attack?

In addition to what Shiny Mewtwo said you could also do a dthrow-> upB if he di's improperly. You've got to remember that captain falcon's weight actually hurts him in this matchup because of how easily he can also be combo'd. I for one think that this matchup is a very even matchup but that's my opinion. I don't fear CF when i play ivy whatsoever.

 

[bubbaking]

Am I the only Ivy who doesn't see any use in using smash Razor Leaves more than rarely? I just don't like it. It's single-hit and it doesn't really have enough hitstun to reliably lead into anything. Tilt Leaves take up space, have great hit-confirmation time, and can pseudo-lock down shields. The only time I ever use Smash Leaves is when I just want to annoy and rack up damage from, like, full screen or something. If I actually want to zone, tilts are the way to go, IMO.

Most of the time Roll/Hold shield. Some of the time Nair. Some of the time WD OoS.

You're probably going to get hit. But you want them to expect the Roll/Shield. This way you can surprise them with Nairs and reverse the situation.


On Falco:
Imo this match-up is easier than Fox but I don't get to play it a lot. If you are on even ground you need to power shield. I'd prefer to be an a platform though and threaten Nair/Fair.

On space animals in general I think it's a decent match-up for Ivy. Her big advantage is that she crushes them - one grab kills. 0-40% Uthrow chainthrow. Then Uthrow Uairs to UpB. If they land on a platform you get to spam free Uairs =).
If they go off stages they die. (btw bubbaking great advice on the bair usage.)

The downside is that if they don't mess-up, they'll win. So basically you're preying on their mistakes and then killing them.

That last bolded sentence is EXACTLY how I feel whenever I play against spacees, especially the good ones who don't approach but pressure me really well when I do (like Kels and Codi/Cel when he feels like he's had enough with the MU ). I actually also feel the same with ROB, but ROB has a lot of other things going for him.

I know about the wonders of bair because that was pretty much all Ivys would do in vBrawl, as far as I could see.

I.........did not know about that combo potential she had on spacees. I mean, I can TC pretty well with her long-ranged dash grab - I like to rack up a lot of damage that way on top of pushing them around the stage until I can send them offstage - and I know about u-tilt/smash/air juggles, but I didn't know she could chaingrab them. Wow, that's really, really good to know!

 

[Oro?!]

Oh, you got to play Kels? How was that wondrous experience?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Apparently, Ivysaur doesn't even have to move to chaingrab them until 40-45%.

Smash Razor Leaf is reasonably useful for edgeguarding, but that's about it. Razor Leaf in general kind of blows, though.

 

[MaPow]

I love using this character so much! But I have trouble in the neutral game. Like once I get a grab or an aerial I'm all good, and my opponent will usually take a beating from Ivy's deadly chains. But I struggle with approaching and such, and I really struggle against the marth MU. If anyone could give me some tips that would be great .

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's hard. Honestly, I don't think Ivysaur can realistically win against a character with a significantly better neutral game (which is, like, most of the Melee high tiers) if they dashdance camp as well as they should and take advantage of her weaknesses.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

...I really struggle against the marth MU. If anyone could give me some tips that would be great .

From my experience, camping and spamming the hell out of leaf does some good in the MU. Uair meteors marth pretty well since he's fairly vulnerable during his up B.

 

[genkaku]

this character is so janky and terrible but very very fun

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Random thing, is it the case that Dair charges 5 ticks on a grounded opponent and 6 on a foe who is airborne?

 

[Deleted member]

I wasn't able to catch Ivysaur on the stream. Was he featured? If so, did anybody notice any changes?

 

[Dng3]

Confirmed:
-Seed Bomb can be angle now (left or right)
-Fair comes out faster
-Razor Leaf comes out faster

What I and others have noticed:
-Faster downsmash?
-Faster Dash attack?
-Less recovering lag on forward smash?
-Bair less knockback but faster?
-Ranges adjusted on Bair/Fair?

 

[Needsmorespin]

Confirmed:
-Seed Bomb can be angle now (left or right)
-Fair comes out faster
-Razor Leaf comes out faster

What I and others have noticed:
-Faster downsmash?
-Faster Dash attack?
-Less recovering lag on forward smash?
-Bair less knockback but faster?
-Ranges adjusted on Bair/Fair?

The Ivy Changes...Oooooohhh *drools* also Grounded Up-b comes out faster

 

[Deleted member]

Cool stuff. A change to Seed Bomb was unexpected, but it certainly sounds useful. Thank god they buffed Razor Leaf, and I'm hoping what you said about D-smash is true because that move was bad.

Maybe Ivysuar will be viable now! One can dream.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

One can dream.

 

[Swann]

I was playing 2.6 at http://twitch.tv/trumpeterswann all day, I can answer all questions if you want.

In a nutshell:
Seed bomb can be angled a bit left or right. The trajectory starts noticeably changing about 75% max height, and varies from slight left/right to about 1.7 Ivysaurs left/right
Razor leaf is MUCH faster (fast startup, less endlag), however, you may only have one out on the field at a time. You can throw another one at about the point that the first stops moving. Smash/tilt leaves seem to still be a thing, but I use smash leaf so seldom I really can't tell for sure.
Dsmash faster startup.
Utilt hitboxes are better near the ground/her vines.
Fair doesn't hit so far underneath Ivy, but it's faster in general
Bair KB sends up+away, less outright gimp potential there. I don't think the range was changed. You can SH bair/fair waveland extremely easily now, which is nice.
There are definite changes to grounded up b. Less cooldown, and the sweetspot seems to match the aerial version better, or maybe there are more sweetspot frames. Aerial version doesn't seem to have the directly-above-Ivysaur sweetspot, though. Or I'm just bad.
Dash attack is faster for sure.
Second jab has really good knockback (read: more).
Aerial mobility/drift during synthesis is much improved and can actively be controlled, instead of being committed to a certain trajectory after jumping.
Fsmash seems the same.

In summary: Ivy is hella fun.

 

[ph00tbag]

So, I'm not really a dedicated enough Ivy player to learn to do this consistently and attempt to apply it and thus learn all of the follow-up paths and how effective they may be, but I've discovered something rather unique about Ivy's dair. It's entirely possible this has been brought up, but a quick search didn't really yield anything.

If you dair immediately after dropping through a platform without fastfalling, the dair will push you up enough that just as you peak, you will be above the platform, and land on it. This is interesting because dair autocancels at least when a fresh dair peaks. This means you land back on the platform with four frames of landing lag, which can be canceled by pretty much anything anyway.

A major application that I can think of off the top of my head is shield-dropping dairs then turning that into either a combo from the platform, or turning into a block mix-up. Other stuff may also be possible, but I thought I'd bring this up if no one knew about it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yeah; a similar principle existed in Brawl, though it wasn't as useful/effective there.

It doesn't really net anything of great importance, but you can bait people with it and make situational D-Airs a little safer.

 

[Swann]

I love doing that for fun.

Mixing up AC dair with drop-through dair/uair/FF grab has yielded pretty good results for me in the past. Conditioning your opponent to expect one particular option helps immensely with this kind of thing.

 

[GMaster171]

I was watching Armada play Ivy yesterday, (along with JC on another stream) and I noticed some differences with Ivy's neutral-b. On JC's stream he was land cancelling it
Look here at 0:25:17: http://www.twitch.tv/jcaesar/b/428694123
he also mentioned a better hitbox for it and he hits it after land cancelling it a few times.
Also, from Armada, I saw Ivy charging even after solarbeam was full, with the healing.
can see that here at 4:20:30 on this video: http://www.twitch.tv/pbnj23/b/428681418
How this is done I'm not sure. It seemed like he was just able to continue charging after its full, and this makes sense. The sudden cut off when the charge fills was weird. Maybe they will implement a double press situation like G&W's bucket? One press/hold causes you to charge, pressing again during the move does the beam? idk, speculations.
Enjoy.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Ooh, speculation!

I'll deconfirm some stuff for you:

The trajectory change on Seed Bomb does not work the way you're describing.
Grounded Up-B does not have less cooldown than 2.5.
Jab does not have more knockback than 2.5.
Regardless of what you saw/played, Neutral-B cannot be steered in mid-air. :3

 

[Swann]

Regardless of what you saw/played, Neutral-B cannot be steered in mid-air. :3

I know what I played! :I

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm just trying to prevent you from getting your heart broken once 2.6 comes out. :<

 

[Swann]

Aw man, that is disappointing indeed.

:[

To be honest, even without that, Ivy still feels really good/borderline maybe too good. I think my heart can take it.

 

[Meme]

Played a bunch of friendlies this weekend mostly with Ivysaur
I really, really liked the option to do a "rising" Dair and static Dair it makes Meteoring Easier and instant Dair off the giound has some really good uses (tech chasing).

The increase on knockback on the second jab is a welcomed change, Ivy feels better all around.

Also Seed bomb looks like had it's momentum change (downward) decreased/ or removed at least that's what I felt, or maybe some timing changed preventing some sort of fastfall from the input.

 

[Shell]

AFAIK jab 2 KB is not changed. Jab 1 does hit on frame 2 above and slightly in front now, however, before continuing on to hit at the usual place on frame 3.

Down-B no longer send Ivy downwards on firing, correct.

 

[Deleted member]

You have no idea how much fun I'm having right now playing Ivysaur. He feels fantastic, and I'm truly in love with every single change. All of his attacks are super solid and much more reliable. Other than figuring out a way to prioritize grabbing the ledge over attacking the opponent when trying to recover with Vine Whip, don't you dare ever change anything about this character. The difference between 2.5 and 2.6 is like night and day.

 

[Emg3]

what is Ivy's razor leaf? Because you can't eat it with DDD and you can't absorb it with ness or lucas. So what is it?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

A non-energy projectile? Sheik's Needles and Yoshi's Eggs work that way, too.

 

[Emg3]

oh cool thanks

 

[Nequ]

I still like Ivysaur in 2.6, but i had to get in my head, that he just can use one leaf at once now .
One Question: If my oponent fails teching and i punish him with a razor leaf, he get's in some kind of lock. Which attack would be the best follow up? Upsmash? or some other attacks?

 

[Deleted member]

I don't really see the problem with being allowed only one Razor Leaf. Ivysaur tried being annoying through Razor Leaf spam in 2.5 and failed miserably. 2.6 Razor Leaf is much more useful. It's also actually quite easy to time how long each Razor Leaf lasts, even if it goes off the screen.

If they get locked in Razor Leaf, I usually attempt a dash grab. You just have to be careful with the grab's range since it's pretty short. If they can break free before you get into grab range, I like using D-tilt.

 

[Nequ]

Yeah. Maybe the leaf is better in 2.6, but i used to spam that side-b until i can grab for example. Now i make some supid empty side-b's, but that's okay

I also tried to grab them but often i can't because of the standup-animation. I tried it on bowser in the training mode with upsmash and acutaly i can land a sweet-spot but hey: It's Bowser and it's training mode so i'm not sure if it works. But d-tilt sounds good, too. Thanks

 

[Shell]

I still like Ivysaur in 2.6, but i had to get in my head, that he just can use one leaf at once now .
One Question: If my oponent fails teching and i punish him with a razor leaf, he get's in some kind of lock. Which attack would be the best follow up? Upsmash? or some other attacks?

The leaf's repeating hits can sometimes reset your attack's KB so they stay in place. You might be able to use this to your advantage in the right situation, but in general the easiest / safest thing to do would probably be to grab them and let the leaf pass through them before throwing.

 

[PrincessAzula]

Hey Ivy players what do you think of the Ivy/Jiggs matchup? I have had a lot of trouble recently going against Jiggs and was wondering if anyone had some thoughts or pointers.

 

[Sweet™]

I love this Goddamn character.

 

[Swann]

Hey Ivy players what do you think of the Ivy/Jiggs matchup? I have had a lot of trouble recently going against Jiggs and was wondering if anyone had some thoughts or pointers.

I got to play a bit against Jiggs yesterday so I'm going to try and not just theorycraft...

This matchup is pretty weird, since ivy and puff basically are playing the same game. It makes it hard for either of them to get in on each other.

You have the advantage in neutral, but you have to make sure she respects your space. Puff gets easier and longer chains on Ivy than ivy gets on puff, so make your hits count early so your opponent doesn't get mental momentum on you. For the most part, though, you get to choose how puff has to approach you, because of the threat of razor leaf, vine whip, seed bomb, fair, and bair. Be patient and you'll be okay in general.

Jiggs weaves faster in the air but you can match her horizontal movement on the ground. By keeping your space and staying grounded, puff has a hard time getting anything going. She can't cross you up easily because so many of ivy's attacks cover the space above her, so just slowly choke her out of stage control. Platforms make things weird, but since ivy loves it when characters land on platforms you should keep her on her toes without much trouble.

Focus on DIing HARD away from Jiggs whenever she gets a hit on you. Ivy is a super combo-able weight for puff, and you'll eat a huge chunk of damage or a stock if you don't get out quick. If you're being juggled, use the momentum stalls from dair and boosts from uair to reset the situation. Don't land in front of puff.

If you've got her offstage, don't rush things: just keep your space, float around and be ready to smack her with an aerial if she swings early. If she has to recover low, just hang around in the space above her and if she pounds to gain height, dair/uair her for being absolutely stupid enough to do that.

I'm sure I don't have to remind you that jiggs has one of the best straight-up punishes in the game, so don't blindly run in on her. Usmash will kill jiggs at stupid low %, though, so she shouldn't be going for really ballsy rests.

Some tricksies:
-if you're on a stage that allows it, angling seed bomb straight up or variations of behind you will make it really hard for jiggs to push forwrd and gain space, even when she connects with an attack
-usmash OoS *****
-tipper fair->vine whip if she DIs away omg

 

[-Fatality-]

I personally find the Jigglypuff matchup to be quite easy with Ivy if you just endlessly camp them out. Make a conscious effort to keep puff out of your face, and spam fast fall neutral b. Whenever they get really close, dispatch a puff with bair, seed bomb, grabs, up-smash, neutral b, or vine whip if your feeling ballsy. When you knock puff off stage with something powerful, don't chase her, just run to the other side of the stage and heal. Never get greedy with combos or edgeguards as puff can punish you much harder than you can punish her. Play it like the Young Link/Puff matchup in melee but with healing implemented, and you'll be quite advantaged.

 

[QraQ]

Puff is so easy to outrange with Ivy. And the fair combos against her just happen.

 

[-Fatality-]

I'd consider Ivy-Puff to be 70/30 in Ivy's favor.
Playing the matchup smartly from an Ivy player's perspective, I (and other Ivy players)
will make life hell for a Puff with the easy zoning and healing. Heal camping forces Puff to approach you, you push her out of your face with one of your many disjointed moves, rinse, repeat, until a kill opportunity presents itself.

Also, you guys should be fast falling Neutral B a lot more, it's an all upside way to push a game in your favor if you have any room to yourself or when you would normally land back on stage,fastfall heal.