bubbaking
Smash Hero
That's the smash version. Think Super and Homing Missiles for Samus. Supers were smash sideB and Homings were tilt sideB. The faster Razor Leaf is smash sideB. The slower, multi-hitting Razor Leaf is tilt sideB.
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Solar Powered: Ivysaur Q&A/General Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir
- Start date
So uh in light of Reflex's post about everyone using Footstools all the time. Here's a fun combo. (Did a quick search for Footstool and nothing came up. Sorry if this is old news.)
Flub UAir > Footstool > Repeat
I want to call it the FlubStool loop for the lulz. I did some simple tests and it seemed to work ~30%-90%. It also worked in practice (whenever I didn't **** up the timing or Lcancels.)
With the following theory fighter stuff, the loop starts working at roughly 20% on Mario. This is earlier than in my simple tests, so i'm not entirely sure. I'm also estimating the fall time (after you hit 'em.) So that could be more or less.
So yeah Ivysaur has a guaranteed +50% combo on every character. =) What a cheap *****.
Theory Fighter Frame Data Time!
UAir Lcancel = 11
Ivy JumpSquat = 4
Physics Delay = 1
15 Frame Window
This is Excluding falling frames from hitting your opponent to landing. ( Depends on their height.) I'm gonna estimate that that's ~15 frames
FallTime = 15
30 Frame Window
Flub UAir Stats
Dmg=6, BKb=25, WKb=0, KbG=80, Dir=270*
*Meteor's increase HitStun. (Dantarion said MeteorMod = Hitstun * 1.5 (Untested))
Calculating Hitstun for Weight 100 (Credit to StrongBad for the formula)
KB(x) = (((x + Dmg) * 0.1) + (Damage * (x + Damage ) * 0.05)) * 1 * 1.4 * (200 / (Weight+ 100)) + 18) * (80 * 0.01)) + BKb
HitStun(x) = KB(x) * 0.4 * MeteorMod
X is the victim's current damage
HitStun(0) = 24
HitStun(10) = 27
HitStun(20) = 30
HitStun(40) = 36
HitStun(100) = 51 (damn!)
I don't know the knockdown formula, so I can't figure out at what damage it stops working.
So Frame window = 30. Damage has got to be 20.
If opponents weight is 100,
This loops starts working at ~20%
Flub UAir > Footstool > Repeat
I want to call it the FlubStool loop for the lulz. I did some simple tests and it seemed to work ~30%-90%. It also worked in practice (whenever I didn't **** up the timing or Lcancels.)
With the following theory fighter stuff, the loop starts working at roughly 20% on Mario. This is earlier than in my simple tests, so i'm not entirely sure. I'm also estimating the fall time (after you hit 'em.) So that could be more or less.
So yeah Ivysaur has a guaranteed +50% combo on every character. =) What a cheap *****.
Theory Fighter Frame Data Time!
UAir Lcancel = 11
Ivy JumpSquat = 4
Physics Delay = 1
15 Frame Window
This is Excluding falling frames from hitting your opponent to landing. ( Depends on their height.) I'm gonna estimate that that's ~15 frames
FallTime = 15
30 Frame Window
Flub UAir Stats
Dmg=6, BKb=25, WKb=0, KbG=80, Dir=270*
*Meteor's increase HitStun. (Dantarion said MeteorMod = Hitstun * 1.5 (Untested))
Calculating Hitstun for Weight 100 (Credit to StrongBad for the formula)
KB(x) = (((x + Dmg) * 0.1) + (Damage * (x + Damage ) * 0.05)) * 1 * 1.4 * (200 / (Weight+ 100)) + 18) * (80 * 0.01)) + BKb
HitStun(x) = KB(x) * 0.4 * MeteorMod
X is the victim's current damage
HitStun(0) = 24
HitStun(10) = 27
HitStun(20) = 30
HitStun(40) = 36
HitStun(100) = 51 (damn!)
I don't know the knockdown formula, so I can't figure out at what damage it stops working.
So Frame window = 30. Damage has got to be 20.
If opponents weight is 100,
This loops starts working at ~20%
bubbaking
Smash Hero
You can't SDI/tech the uair? 
This is why we need to be able to tech footstools that ground us.
This is why we need to be able to tech footstools that ground us.
I think the idea is that the meteor is too weak to make people bounce, so there's nothing to tech. That said, SDI is still a thing, and I bet that ASDI down puts a stop to it. I'll probably test it sometime.
ScaryPixel
Smash Cadet
bubbaking
Smash Hero
I don't think he was talking about footstools. I'm pretty sure you can SDI any actual hit in any direction. All SDI does is change the point of origin from which both knockback and regular DI would take effect. It's done during the hitlag of a move.
chenjesu
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2008
- Messages
- 247
...............
Recording was there, Amsah wasn't.
Twin Rhapsody
Smash Apprentice
Has anyone else had Randall completely screw up their tether attempts on Yoshi's Story (Melee)? It seems like if you're "in" him, or near him in general, Up+B won't catch the ledge. Could be just me, but it happens frequently so I thought I'd bring it up.
ScaryPixel
Smash Cadet
YES. =(
My suggestion is to try to keep track of Randall, avoid using your tether if he's near and stall with dair till it's safe to come recover.
Twin Rhapsody
Smash Apprentice
As i thought. Thanks for the tips. Also, I'd like to point out that Ivy can cancel her dash attack on hit into UpSmash. I knew this was a thing in Brawl for a select few, but I didn't think anyone retained that trick.
ScaryPixel
Smash Cadet
Is the sweet spot guaranteed? or can they avoid it with proper DI but still get hit by the rest of usmash?
Twigz
Smash Apprentice
Hey guys, i was wondering what are some nice combo's with Ivy. If it's not too much trouble to ask, what are essential melee mechanics to learn to be a good player? i think someone told me about L-cancelling anything? Thanks.
N-Air and F-Air lend themselves most to comboing. There's a 50/50 mix-up between U-Throw and D-Throw that can net you low-percent KOs with Solarbeam and/or Up-B.
Proper use of dashdancing, consistent use of the "there's no reason not to use this over the alternative" stuff (such as L-Canceling and Jump-Cancel Grab), proper Directional Influence and Smash Directional Influence, and crouch canceling are the most important things, I feel. Most other things are situationally useful, but this stuff is universal and finds use a LOT in competitive play.
Proper use of dashdancing, consistent use of the "there's no reason not to use this over the alternative" stuff (such as L-Canceling and Jump-Cancel Grab), proper Directional Influence and Smash Directional Influence, and crouch canceling are the most important things, I feel. Most other things are situationally useful, but this stuff is universal and finds use a LOT in competitive play.
Twigz
Smash Apprentice
Thanks a lot, now how do I do those things? What are the inputs? Or is their a thread I can look at? And thanks again bro. Gonna continue working on that ivy. He's sooo much Fun!!!
bubbaking
Smash Hero
I heavily disagree with the bolded portion regarding Ivy (and pretty much only Ivy and a select few other chars). There's every reason in the world not to use JC grabs with Ivy because those are the slowest grabs out of the three types she has in her arsenal. I'm not sure when you would ever want to JC grab (totally different from shieldgrab; a JC grab is even slower), but I can assure you that it is NOT one of those 'there's no reason not to use this over the alternative' things. In fact, there's almost no reason not to use the alternatives. The only time one would want to JC grab is out of a dash, and Ivy's dash grab is faster than her standing grab (to which a JC adds another frame of start-up).
He asked how to be good at Melee. If you're gonna be good at Melee, you won't be picking Ivysaur in the first place. 
Twigz
Smash Apprentice
So ivysaur is not a viable pick if I want to get good?
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
What he meant is that Ivysaur is not in Melee. In Project M, however, pick whoever you want to learn.
Twigz
Smash Apprentice
Oh lolz I just caught on to what he meant X_x, argh! >.< Might aswell pick someone I could play in melee also.
Playing Ivysaur is not going to teach you how to be good at standard Melee/PM stuff. She just doesn't need it as much as most characters, and the playstyle she demands isn't as dynamic as the average character. If you're looking to play a character that will "show you the ropes" for other characters, Ivysaur is not good for that.
As an aside, I don't think Ivysaur will be a viable character as the metagame grows and improves, but there will probably be an update before that becomes an issue, so it's probably not worth worrying about the inherent "goodness" or "badness" of a character in general. You can win with pretty much anyone because the metagame isn't established yet.
As an aside, I don't think Ivysaur will be a viable character as the metagame grows and improves, but there will probably be an update before that becomes an issue, so it's probably not worth worrying about the inherent "goodness" or "badness" of a character in general. You can win with pretty much anyone because the metagame isn't established yet.
Twigz
Smash Apprentice
Thank you Sorry for asking so many questions ....... What characters would u recommend then, to show me the ropes? Sorry for asking so many questions.....
Sorry for asking so many questions ....... What characters would u recommend then, to show me the ropes? Sorry for asking so many questions.....
Sheik would probably do the best for that.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
or Marth.....
Marth would be a good Step 2, I think, but, I imagine Sheik would get you most in tune with the fundamentals overall.
Never tell anybody to play Marth.
Please.
Twigz, never play Marth against anyone ever.
Please.
Twigz, never play Marth against anyone ever.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
I'd rather play against Marth then play against Sheik. I tell you, Sheik would be the perfect character (or at least another one) if she also had a shine, and she has JUST the perfect move to replace it with.....perfect three moves, actually. One of them retains the same input, one of them is arguably her worst move, and one of them could be easily overshadowed by her alter ego's alternative. 
#CrypticRiddleTalk
#CrypticRiddleTalk
Twigz
Smash Apprentice
What's so bad about Marth?
I tried Shiek and gosh i am terribad
gonna take me a lonngggg time to get used to this What about Wario? and Peach?
Swann
Smash Journeyman
Grab more. Learn what options your opponent has out of her throws (mostly down and back throw) and cover them. Sheik's normals are REALLY good. You should be abusing her jab, ftlit, utilt, dsmash. Learn to do subtle spacing with her WD. Her aerials are similarly solid.
I agree that Marth is probably better to learn the fundamentals with. He's got a great DD and WD (unlike Sheik), has a focus on spacing, his grab game is nuts, and he's decently easy to get kills with if you have even a vague idea of what to do. That dair swag doesn't hurt, either.
I agree that Marth is probably better to learn the fundamentals with. He's got a great DD and WD (unlike Sheik), has a focus on spacing, his grab game is nuts, and he's decently easy to get kills with if you have even a vague idea of what to do. That dair swag doesn't hurt, either.
Marth tends to be very "if x, do y," whereas Sheik allows for more flexible, think-on-your-feet gameplay. Marth's individual moves are also not incredibly balanced; more moves of his don't serve an "obvious, specific" purpose.
Sheik makes you want to use all of your options with more of a balance, I think.
Sheik makes you want to use all of your options with more of a balance, I think.
Swann
Smash Journeyman
Interesting, I've always seen Sheik as the more flowchart-y character.
I guess they both kind of are, at times.
I guess they both kind of are, at times.
I lost to him 4/5 times at my most recent tournament (in both Melee and PM, against 3 different people) and now I hate him forever.
Twigz
Smash Apprentice
Lol hahahaha it's life bro
bubbaking
Smash Hero
I agree with almost everything here. The only difference is that I'd replace utilt in your post with dtilt. F/dtilt mix-ups are BnB for Sheik.
I see what you're saying. IMO, Marth has a more definite 'combo tree' where x reliably chains into y, even with good DI. With bad DI, x chains into incredibly rewarding z. In this sense, Marth is a bit better at teaching one the concept of longer, reliable combo strings. Sheik's only really reliable combo is dthrow > fair, in my experience.
Marth is also really good at forcing one to get used to adapting to very clear strengths AND weaknesses. Sheik tends to make newer players feel empowered and invincible, mostly because of how smoothly she moves and the intuitive combos of dthrow/ftilt/dtilt/utilt > fair that everyone learns after playing her for the first 5 minutes.
I guess Sheik is more "flowchart-y" in that dthrow ALWAYS combos into fair on most characters and always into fair/uair on floaties, but she's actually less 'combo tree-ish' than Marth in that her longer combos aren't very reliable because they are very DI and TC dependent. This is why good Sheiks don't dthrow > ftilt Marths but less experienced ones will do it all the time. At low level, with bad or no DI, ftilt reliably combos into fair/uair. At high level, with good DI, it combos into nothing.
That's funny. I have an extremely good track record against Marths in tourney, both in Melee and P:M.
It's probably because Marth is one of the characters I play against the most in friendlies with my training partners. MUs involving him are pretty simple, IMO, because they break everything down to the fundamentals of Smash.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Falco is too technical, though, for a beginner, IMO, especially one who truly wants to main someone else. Keep in mind that when I say "learn a character", I am NOT saying 'learn this character with the intent of completely dropping him later'. I am saying 'learn this character both to place him in your competitive arsenal AND to learn fundamental techniques that can be applied elsewhere'. My first real main in Melee was Sheik, but I didn't just stick with her for a short while. I played her solo for over a year before I moved on and became a Samus main. Now she's a solid secondary for me. She taught me the concepts of SHFFLing, JC grabs, WDing, DDing, land cancelled specials, jab mix-ups, edgeguarding/gimping, the works, etc. She showed me the basics of it all because Sheik is pretty much that character who can do nearly everything (but not exactly everything). Then I got bored and tried other characters and really liked Samus' playstyle.
Sheik can literally display all of those techs you mention above quite well, even B-reversals (B-reversed needles are awesome and full of swag).
Sheik can literally display all of those techs you mention above quite well, even B-reversals (B-reversed needles are awesome and full of swag).