Solar Powered: Ivysaur Q&A/General Discussion Thread

[TheReflexWonder]

...Everything beats Razor Leaf. F-Air and B-Air both beat most Lucario Neutral-B stuff. I think Ivysaur probably has it easier than many characters against Lucario.

 

[Deleted member]

fair is just silly because of its ridiculous range. it needs to not be so damn good.

But what makes it too good? Besides its range, nothing else about the move is spectacular. Do you think it's better than, say, Marth's fair?

Ivysaur isn't that great, so I don't see a reason why anybody would discuss nerfing something about him. We should keep what's actually good and build on it. The one thing Ivysaur does have atm is range, so I think it's a very bad idea to diminish that.

 

[stingers]

the range alone gives her way too safe of an option for approaching, it pretty much just dominates all of her other choices.
the upwards angle it sends at is great for mid% combos as well

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If you don't see the problem with F-Air, you're simply not using it correctly. The sheer range of it makes it overshadow all sorts of stuff. It's a poor excuse to prevent Ivysaur from actually having to space. Same with current D-Tilt.

Interesting, helpful thing of the day, though: If you do a running shorthop at the edge of the stage, fastfall at the peak of your jump, and Up-B when you're horizontally lined up with the edge of the stage, your tether will be almost at the absolute maximum. This opens up potential edgehog situations by going around someone recovering and reeling yourself in as they try to grab the edge.

 

[JOE!]

Legit question, but why is this fine but Ivy's Fair is questionable?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

bcuz melee

Even at its Brawl range (which was significantly shorter), Ivysaur's F-Air could safely hit standing opponents on a fullhop, through platforms. That's something that Melee Marth can't reasonably do, and it's really helpful for threatening attacking with little commitment involved.

PM Ivysaur's F-air also hits at a very high angle, allowing it to be SIGNIFICANTLY more useful for comboing. F-Air's best part is not as a "get away from me" move--It is a "let me start a combo" move, which Marth can't do nearly as well without actively going in.

See, that's why I have trouble taking stock in people's experiences with these moves. "X needs buffs/doesn't need nerfs," but people are only thinking in terms of IASA, range, and damage, rather than the point of the move's existence. Functionality is wayyy more important than such simple values at least 95% of the time, though simple values can certainly be used to complement functional improvements/additions.

Either way, this thread would be better served for talking about 2.5vysaur. The best way to figure out what she needs is to make the most of what she has now.

 

[JOE!]

Makes sense.

Anywho, back to when I talked about Lucario: I face a very campy one regularly that I have trouble with as Ivysaur, often making me swap to Zard or Boozer. How can I fight camping as Ivy when Aurasphere nullifies my own projectile game?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Even fully-charged (non-Super) Aura Sphere is clanked out by F-Air, so if he's charging it, just swing at him. If he's doing them in short shots, B-Air, D-Tilt, and Dash Attack also work well against them.

Don't rely on Razor Leaf for anything, because it's a bad move outside of edgeguarding and should only be used when you're a good distance away. Outrange him and keep swinging at his burst range, the space he can cover with moves before you can react to it. Use the occasional D-Tilt/F-Tilt to space the ground. B-Air and F-Tilt are better at low percents to deal with CC-ing, while F-Air and D-Tilt are good at mid-to-high percents for combos and follow-ups. His dash is quick, which is the biggest issue.

What is he doing outside of Aura Sphere that is causing a big problem for you?

 

[JOE!]

Been using Leaf similar to Wolf's laser since it covers a lot of space, so that may have just been problem 1. Anyways, besides Aurasphere the only issue is that when he gets in theres nothing I can really do to get away from him effectively, but as I see it thats more of an ivysaur issue in general.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, don't let Aura Sphere scare you. You can swing at him rather effectively. Keep poking to threaten his approaches. SDI hurts his combos somewhat, so be sure to throw that out when you can.

 

[JOE!]

It's more like I didn't think I could beat it out, shielding or reacting in general then let him rush in, which usnt good

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I know it looks intimidating, but knowledge is power.

 

[stingers]

i disagree that razor leaf is bad. its bad in certain situations (aka when you can reasonably be attacked in its downtime, making it useless against CERTAIN characters) but its a pretty good zoning tool and can even be a safe combo starter with the weak version.

 

[Deleted member]

I personally think the reason Fair overshadows a lot of his other options is not because the move is too good but rather because his other options are simply bad.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

No. B-Air has great range, hits twice (which helps against shields and CC-ers), and sends people out at a decently horizontal angle. F-Tilt hits a -lot- and it pretty safe to just throw out. D-Tilt has larger horizontal range and is really fast.

All of these moves get crouch-canceled, though, and with F-Air, as long as you're hitting with the edge of the move, it's incredibly safe to just throw out. Also, F-Air is the only one of those that regularly helps with comboing (as only the edge of D-Tilt does a good angle for that, too, which is easily jumped over), meaning you can actually follow up on it, while the other moves just reset the situation. She needs more ways to be able to get in and deal real damage instead of relying on individual hits or the same couple moves over and over again.

 

[JUGGERNAUT043]

He looks safe

People are going to start calling him gay and they will beg for nerfs. It happens with every safe and defensive character. Sheik and Marf are good examples. I hear people call them gay all of the time because of their lack of reliable approaches in comparison to other top/high tier characters.

He looks like a Marf with a slightly weaker spacing game and a few more options at longer distances. My guess is that getting behind him will be just as effective as it is against Marf. The only thing about Ivy is his OoS game. Looks like it could be godlike.

u forgot to mention ike in the calling gay and for nerfs part lol

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Going to be PM at a Brawl tournament tomorrow, hoping to get us some $$$ and not have to resort to secondaries.

 

[bubbaking]

fair is just silly because of its ridiculous range. it needs to not be so damn good.

Fair.....is not that good, lolz! It's kinda weak and its start-up can be punished pretty badly by the right characters. Range isn't everything. Right now, I find it to only be good as a combo finisher (it extends combos but it's really easy for it to not follow up into anything), a sparse mix-up to bair (when it comes to zoning, there's little reason to use fair over bair), or as a ledgehop defense option. The last option is actually how I use it the most because it's fast enough (and Ivy is floaty enough) that Ivy can ledgehop fair and still re-grab the ledge. In fact, Ivy can drift over/away from the stage during the ledgehop fair and still drift back and grab the ledge. This is REALLY useful for harassing an opponent that is trying to lock Ivy down on the ledge, as this strat is pretty hard to punish if you 'drift' properly. Upon hit-confirmation, you can also just land onstage.

Does Falcon **** her in the same sense Falcon ***** Marth? >_>

Falcon doesn't **** Marth, lolz! That MU is probably even, but Falcon most definitely doesn't win it. However, I'd agree that Falcon probably messes up Ivy really badly. Between close-range jab/grab/DD options and the combos he gets on her from a hit, Falcon can really make Ivy's life hell. It also doesn't help that Razor Leaves are so easily out-prioritized.

Just food for thought: Lucario imo is a ******** MU. Aura Sphere >>>> Razor leaf (that thing needs to be transcendent or sumthin)

Are you saying Razor Leaf should be transcendent? Yeah, I agree that Lucario kinda destroys Ivy as well. As I predicted long ago, all the extreme rush-down chars really give Ivy a super hard time.

Edit - @Reflex: Just fairing Luke's AS doesn't solve the problem. A good Luke shouldn't be throwing it out just to hit you with it. He should be using it to control space and force a reaction. I usually use it from a distance and then follow behind it as closely as I can while observing the opponent's reaction to it. If you attack it to get rid of it, Lucario can take advantage of that in many various ways (DA ahead of the sphere, aerial over it, DT through your AS-negating attack and punish, etc.). Even if he doesn't get in, Lucario suffers no deficit. You're not managing to land damage on him and he can just pull back and shoot more spheres, repeating the scenario as he likes.

 

[ss118]

When I said that I was being sarcastic lol. Imo Marth ***** Falcon and I think Ivy has more issues, mainly lack of a decent grab.

 

[stingers]

ivys grab is fine. she just needs a gtfo me move. like she really needs one.
and a fair nerf.
after that shes golden.

 

[bubbaking]

Stingers, do you actually understand the topics you are talking about? Ivy's grab is kinda crappy. It's almost as slow as Melee Samus' grab. Ivy's standing grab is her WORST variant of the three possible grabs. You should literally never use it unless you need to shieldgrab, which means you're in a terrible situation 'cause your shield is being pooped on. Samus has a very comparable problem (her standing grab is way less safe than her other grabs) but at least she has extremely good OoS options (upB, nair, WD, bomb, etc). If you want to grab, and you're not in shield, you should always try to dash in at least some direction right before you grab. Ivy's dash grab is active for just as long as her standing grab and it comes out AND ends sooner. Ivy's pivot grab is waaay faster. It comes out a frame slower than her dash grab (still a frame faster than her standing grab, mind you) but it ends a good deal faster than both of her other variants, and that part is actually very visible and easy to see. All her grabs seem to have the same range, so why the heck wouldn't you dash when you have to grab (not in shield)? If people want to talk about polarizing moves that overshadow other moves, well then there you go! Ivy has NO reason to use standing grab over her other two grabs unless she's currently shielding, which means she's in a pretty bad spot anyway. Even her dash/pivot grabs are very slow by regular grab standards. You can actually react to and dodge all of them. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm FINE with all of this. It just makes cute Ivy more similar to my beloved Melee Samus. However, I still think your statement that her grabs are "fine" is a little inaccurate, IMO.

I agree that Ivy needs a good GTFO move. Her nair is OK, but it's terrible when that's really your only good option out of shield. Fair doesn't need to be nerfed. It needs to be buffed! What can she kill with? Ivy SUCKS at killing anything she can't gimp.

PM Ivysaur's F-air also hits at a very high angle, allowing it to be SIGNIFICANTLY more useful for comboing. F-Air's best part is not as a "get away from me" move--It is a "let me start a combo" move, which Marth can't do nearly as well without actively going in.

.....No? Marth's fair doesn't really require commitment outside of easy spacing (which you can get around if you FF it and do it at the lowest possible point). You can do two in a single SH, something Ivy can't do. Marth is better both at being aggro and close-up zoning than Ivy is, IMO, and all with a couple moves (talk about polarizing). I'll give you that Ivy's fair hits lower than Marth's does, but hitting high is exactly WHY Marth's fair is so good for combos when you think you should have escaped already. It's the reason he can still Ken Combo in certain situations; it hits so high above him.

See, that's why I have trouble taking stock in people's experiences with these moves. "X needs buffs/doesn't need nerfs," but people are only thinking in terms of IASA, range, and damage, rather than the point of the move's existence. Functionality is wayyy more important than such simple values at least 95% of the time, though simple values can certainly be used to complement functional improvements/additions.

I'm talking functionality here. What exactly is wrong with a zoning queen having such range-y moves? I thought walling was the name of the game. Perhaps it would be more clear if you shared what playstyle you think Ivy should be displaying...

No. B-Air has great range, hits twice (which helps against shields and CC-ers), and sends people out at a decently horizontal angle. F-Tilt hits a -lot- and it pretty safe to just throw out. D-Tilt has larger horizontal range and is really fast.

I kinda agree with SFtP in that Ivy's other moves are kinda bad, but I don't think Ivy's fair really overshadows anything. If anything, it's Ivy's bair that is quite dominant in her moveset. Bair, ftilt, and dtilt (everything you named here, in fact) are her interchangeable 'good' options at mid-range when it comes to walling. Fair "overshadows" none of them.

All of these moves get crouch-canceled, though, and with F-Air, as long as you're hitting with the edge of the move, it's incredibly safe to just throw out. Also, F-Air is the only one of those that regularly helps with comboing (as only the edge of D-Tilt does a good angle for that, too, which is easily jumped over), meaning you can actually follow up on it, while the other moves just reset the situation. She needs more ways to be able to get in and deal real damage instead of relying on individual hits or the same couple moves over and over again.

Uh, Samus? Missile, missile, missile, missile, tilt, tilt, tilt, tilt, ooh, DSMASH! (obvious hyperbole, but you should get my point). I still don't see what's wrong with not really having huge combo potential. Not every character in Smash is supposed to be a combo machine. I know I've cited Samus a lot, but again SAMUS! Perfectly fine character who doesn't have any long 'true combos' in the slightest, just a bunch of follow-ups that depend on good reads and tech-chases, something Ivy has with her range-y grabs and usmash, uair, and dair for plat TCs. There's nothing really wrong with that, IMO.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

What can she kill with? Ivy SUCKS at killing anything she can't gimp.

Solarbeam, Vine Whip, Upair, Upsmash, Dair Spike, Seed Bomb.

Ivy isn't actually that bad at killing if you utilize all of the above correctly.

 

[chenjesu]

am i the only person that doesn't think ivy is a horrible character????

 

[stingers]

lol bubba u really dont know what ur talking about im sorry. internet theorycrafting != reality

 

[bubbaking]

Internet theorycrafting, lolz? I JUST came back from a Melee tourney a few hours ago where I played a bunch of Ivy in P:M friendlies. Theorycrafting is definitely what I'm NOT doing. Guess what? I hit Fox with fair over 100%. He didn't die. The move never killed him during any of the matches. What's more, the move only combos if they DI it poorly, which can be said for, like, Ivy's entire moveset other than dtilt.

Edit: My friend also mains Ivy and Zard. I play as AND against both characters quite frequently.

@Shiny: Seed Bomb doesn't kill, lolz. I've hit people over 100 with that who were actually a good bit up in the air (about halfway up the screen) and they still didn't die. You have to nail them when they're close to the upper blastzone to actually kill them, in my experience.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

@Shiny: Seed Bomb doesn't kill, lolz. I've hit people over 100 with that who were actually a good bit up in the air (about halfway up the screen) and they still didn't die. You have to nail them when they're close to the upper blastzone to actually kill them, in my experience.

It's a good thing that Seed Bomb is REALLY good at hitting them close to the upper blastzone then.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Stingers, do you actually understand the topics you are talking about? Ivy's grab is kinda crappy. It's almost as slow as Melee Samus' grab. Ivy's standing grab is her WORST variant of the three possible grabs. You should literally never use it unless you need to shieldgrab, which means you're in a terrible situation 'cause your shield is being pooped on. Samus has a very comparable problem (her standing grab is way less safe than her other grabs) but at least she has extremely good OoS options (upB, nair, WD, bomb, etc). If you want to grab, and you're not in shield, you should always try to dash in at least some direction right before you grab. Ivy's dash grab is active for just as long as her standing grab and it comes out AND ends sooner. Ivy's pivot grab is waaay faster. It comes out a frame slower than her dash grab (still a frame faster than her standing grab, mind you) but it ends a good deal faster than both of her other variants, and that part is actually very visible and easy to see. All her grabs seem to have the same range, so why the heck wouldn't you dash when you have to grab (not in shield)? If people want to talk about polarizing moves that overshadow other moves, well then there you go! Ivy has NO reason to use standing grab over her other two grabs unless she's currently shielding, which means she's in a pretty bad spot anyway. Even her dash/pivot grabs are very slow by regular grab standards. You can actually react to and dodge all of them. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm FINE with all of this. It just makes cute Ivy more similar to my beloved Melee Samus. However, I still think your statement that her grabs are "fine" is a little inaccurate, IMO.

I agree that Ivy needs a good GTFO move. Her nair is OK, but it's terrible when that's really your only good option out of shield. Fair doesn't need to be nerfed. It needs to be buffed! What can she kill with? Ivy SUCKS at killing anything she can't gimp.


.....No? Marth's fair doesn't really require commitment outside of easy spacing (which you can get around if you FF it and do it at the lowest possible point). You can do two in a single SH, something Ivy can't do. Marth is better both at being aggro and close-up zoning than Ivy is, IMO, and all with a couple moves (talk about polarizing). I'll give you that Ivy's fair hits lower than Marth's does, but hitting high is exactly WHY Marth's fair is so good for combos when you think you should have escaped already. It's the reason he can still Ken Combo in certain situations; it hits so high above him.


I'm talking functionality here. What exactly is wrong with a zoning queen having such range-y moves? I thought walling was the name of the game. Perhaps it would be more clear if you shared what playstyle you think Ivy should be displaying...


I kinda agree with SFtP in that Ivy's other moves are kinda bad, but I don't think Ivy's fair really overshadows anything. If anything, it's Ivy's bair that is quite dominant in her moveset. Bair, ftilt, and dtilt (everything you named here, in fact) are her interchangeable 'good' options at mid-range when it comes to walling. Fair "overshadows" none of them.


Uh, Samus? Missile, missile, missile, missile, tilt, tilt, tilt, tilt, ooh, DSMASH! (obvious hyperbole, but you should get my point). I still don't see what's wrong with not really having huge combo potential. Not every character in Smash is supposed to be a combo machine. I know I've cited Samus a lot, but again SAMUS! Perfectly fine character who doesn't have any long 'true combos' in the slightest, just a bunch of follow-ups that depend on good reads and tech-chases, something Ivy has with her range-y grabs and usmash, uair, and dair for plat TCs. There's nothing really wrong with that, IMO.

Frame 13 grab is slow, but the idea is that the range makes up for it. It allows you to cover many tech chasing positions and catch landings. The main reason it's bad is the fact that the hitbox for it is very, very low, so any kind of being off the ground (even stuff like ZSS Dash Attack and Diddy U-Tilt) will avoid it. It still has (rather situational) uses, and the fact that you can threaten people with long-range attacks from quite the distance makes people get concerned with more than a grab. As far as Dash Grab being almost entirely (Standing Grab has the most range by a little) superior to Standing Grab, I think that's an oversight, but it hardly changes the moves uses to be one frame slower and have one extra frame of cooldown.

N-Air and Neutral-B are still pretty decent out-of-shield options, and Ivysaur benefits from having strong tools for poking and comboing from that huge range, as well as long-distance rolls and quite possibly the longest distance on tech rolls in the whole game.

I've already explained why F-Air is overpowered, so I won't go into it here. F-Air does everything it's supposed to and much, much more. If it was given more knockback, it would be a significantly worse move. >_>

It requires plenty of commitment because Marth is quite susceptible to CC-ing. Being able to do two in a single shorthop isn't really that special or helpful for spacing. Marth is mostly better at fighting up-close because his close attacks have large arcs and because his grab is incredibly good, but Ivysaur covers what space she's capable of better than Marth, and she also gets much more off of each grab on average (with the exception of fighting space animals, but that's a special case and not indicative of what it's like to fight the rest of the cast). Ken Combo is only a thing when people DI up and toward you, and because of how fast the animation ends overall, and it still requires him to basically hold Forward and hope he gets it, rather than being able to space well and then respond to the opponent's DI choice.

The problem is that people want zoning to take a modicum of thought, and the sheer range that some of her best moves exhibit makes it take little thought and almost no commitment in many common situations. In Street Fighter, Dhalsim's zoning takes thought because every move has its own specific place for keeping people away, and he still has a few opportunities for damaging strings if the opponent screws up. I feel like the current Ivysaur has a small handful of moves that cover almost every option, reducing the need to "press all the buttons." I would much rather have to understand her entire moveset to succeed than simply F-Air, B-Air, and tilt my way to victory.

F-Air covers more range than B-Air and sends people at a REALLY high angle (to further refute your comparison to Marth's F-Air, it hits at an 80-degree angle without DI), meaning that her longest-range move is also her #1 combo starter. F-Air is supposed to be a combo starter, but because of its sheer range, as well as how it can easily be covered by B-Air or a tilt (as F-Air is the slowest out of those moves), it's easy to get people afraid to come in for fear of getting tagged by a quick move, and then you get a late F-Air, which is made incredibly safe by L-Canceling and range, and becomes even better for comboing because it ends halfway through the animation by landing. It's like the other moves are just there to supplement F-Air use at this point, because you get WAY more pay-off from a successful F-Air than any of the other moves you listed.

Ivysaur has rather good combo potential as it is. The problem is that she's not especially good at keeping especially-aggressive characters out, and she's not especially good at camping against campy characters, so she's left in a situation where she's mediocre in most matchups when the opponent is playing optimally. That's what needs to change, IMO.

Internet theorycrafting, lolz? I JUST came back from a Melee tourney a few hours ago where I played a bunch of Ivy in P:M friendlies. Theorycrafting is definitely what I'm NOT doing. Guess what? I hit Fox with fair over 100%. He didn't die. The move never killed him during any of the matches. What's more, the move only combos if they DI it poorly, which can be said for, like, Ivy's entire moveset other than dtilt.

Again, F-Air is a comboing move that you're going to get very little out of unless you're L-Canceling it right after the hitbox is out or you're already moving toward the opponent. I make really good use out of it with my Ivysaur. If you're having trouble comboing out of F-Air, you're just using it for spacing instead of attempting to maximize your frame advantage.

 

[PB&J]

Follow me on twitch http://www.twitch.tv/pbnj23

Im going to be streaming PM and Melee pretty often

thanks in advance

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Followed! When do you usually stream?

 

[PB&J]

Followed! When do you usually stream?

tuesday,thurday,sunday,but it will be more often now,so be on the look out and thanks for following

p.s.-click on the bottom of my twitch page to follow me on other sites and support my stream

 

[bubbaking]

Reflex, I see your points and I think I understand them a bit better now. I still disagree, but I've said my part and you've said yours. Just do what you PMBR members do, I guess, and go make good characters, lolz.

However, I must say that I think all of you are severely underrating Ivysaur's jab. I was using it the other day (as well as a bunch of other days ) and that move is spectacular. Frame 3, great disjoint, low lag. The move also has a LOT of range for a jab, I feel. When you CC it, it pressures wonderfully. Any of you who are not using it in this way are simply not using the move correctly. Brawl Ike users and Melee Samus users should already be familiar with it 'cause it's required to be really good with those chars. Ivy's jab isn't overshadowed by her dtilt at all. I USED to think so and expressed such sentimen a long time agot, but then I started actually thinking about how I used the move instead of just comparing the basic traits that seemed similar to dtilt. On that note, I also feel that there is almost no reason to use jab 2 unless you REALLY need that little 'GTFO' function of it.

Solarbeam, Vine Whip, Upair, Upsmash, Dair Spike, Seed Bomb.

Ivy isn't actually that bad at killing if you utilize all of the above correctly.

I wanted to reply to this more in-depth before but I couldn't because I was running to work. (-_-') I'll give you Solarbeam (requires a lengthy charge and kinda bad DI, though), Vine Whip (same deal but without the charge), and maybe usmash (I feel like it's not that strong but maybe that's just me), but that's it. Uair doesn't kill. It juggles really well, but it doesn't kill. Usmash barely kills and uair is weaker than that and needs to be sweetspotted with a small, frame-long hitbox. The "dair spike" (which I believe is actually just a meteor) isn't reliable because of that same hitbox. You have to hit with a small hitbubble that only lasts for 1 frame. Anything else pops the opponent up. Good luck with that. I already talked about Seed Bomb.

To be clear, I think that Ivy is potentially a master gimper/edgeguarder. Between bair, dtilt combos, ftilt, and fsmash, she can gimp really well. Spacees and tether-dependent recoveries are pretty free. I have literally NO trouble edgeguarding ZSS, Fox, or opposing Ivys. She's also pretty good at pressuring/building up damage while edgeguarding with Seed Bomb stuff. Still, her outright KO power is lacking.

 

[bubbaking]

OK, it's been over an hour.

Actually, I just had to reply to this :

Ken Combo is only a thing when people DI up and toward you, and because of how fast the animation ends overall, and it still requires him to basically hold Forward and hope he gets it, rather than being able to space well and then respond to the opponent's DI choice.

On heavy chars and chars at low %'s, even if you DI away during Marth's fair combos, you'll get tipper fsmashed. Happens to me all the time. Even at mid %'s, you're gonna get faired quite a few times and might eat a nair at the end.

Edit: Anyway, I just discovered something with Ivy's (failed) tether that's EXTREMELY similar to a certain Samus tether tech in Melee. In Melee, Samus could perform something called the Instant Rising Grapple Cancel. If you tether too close to the stage, you enter freefall without actually tethering anything (the tether is cancelled). However, since you can AD before the tether, you can AD up a curved surface and then tether against the stage during the first few frames of the AD. The tether will be cancelled, but Samus will be flung waaay up (distance depends on how soon into the AD you tethered) in 'freefall' (more like 'freerise' ), during which she can land onstage with practically NO landing lag or grab the ledge. It's a great recovery mix-up that actually covers, I'd say, at least twice the vertical distance that her screw attack covers.

This tech is probably one of the biggest Samus-specific reasons (I have a ton of general reasoning that applies to everyone) I prefer Melee tethers over the current P:M/vBrawl ones.

Ivy can do something similar to what Samus can do using apparently similar mechanics. If you use Ivy competitively, you should know by now that upB causes Ivy to 'hop' upwards, even if she's already expended her DJ. This could be seen as akin to the AD before Melee Samus' tether. Now, have you noticed how, if you try to tether the stage from 'within range' but below and a little 'past' the ledge (the best way I can describe this is against an inwardly curved/slanted slope under and a little 'behind' the ledge instead of 'in front' of it), Ivy's upB is just cancelled? It seems like she suffers the same thing when she tries to tether from juuuuust past max range, but it's much easier to do consistently in the scenario I'm presenting (also more applicable). You can probably see what I'm getting at by now. By initiating an upB while hugging a slanted/curved side of a stage, you can get a fairly large jump upwards (the slant accentuates the otherwise 'small' hop that the upB gives) and Ivy can grab the ledge directly out of this jump. As of now, I've only tested this out extensively on FD, but the tech can be done consistently and EASILY. It seems potentially useful for increasing the number of angles Ivy can use to recover on stages with sloped/slanted sides (FD, FoD, etc).

To clarify further, I find Ivy somewhat easy to edgeguard now because her upB tether is easily intercepted by certain chars. Long lasting hitboxes, like sex kicks or, funnily enough, Ivy's bair, are really good at knocking her out of it. All one has to do is place a hitbox between her and the ledge. The tether's angles are too predictable. By having an additional recovery avenue on certain stages, Ivy could possibly mix up her recovery further, allowing her to dodge such simple edgeguards. I still have to test this tech more extensively in actual practice.

Btw, I doubt that I was the first to discover this, but I haven't seen anyone post about it, so here it is. It just caught my eye because it was extremely similar to Samus' Instant Rising Grapple Cancel (a.k.a. High Jump).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

However, I must say that I think all of you are severely underrating Ivysaur's jab. I was using it the other day (as well as a bunch of other days ) and that move is spectacular. Frame 3, great disjoint, low lag. The move also has a LOT of range for a jab, I feel. When you CC it, it pressures wonderfully. Any of you who are not using it in this way are simply not using the move correctly. Brawl Ike users and Melee Samus users should already be familiar with it 'cause it's required to be really good with those chars. Ivy's jab isn't overshadowed by her dtilt at all. I USED to think so and expressed such sentimen a long time agot, but then I started actually thinking about how I used the move instead of just comparing the basic traits that seemed similar to dtilt. On that note, I also feel that there is almost no reason to use jab 2 unless you REALLY need that little 'GTFO' function of it.

I wanted to reply to this more in-depth before but I couldn't because I was running to work. (-_-') I'll give you Solarbeam (requires a lengthy charge and kinda bad DI, though), Vine Whip (same deal but without the charge), and maybe usmash (I feel like it's not that strong but maybe that's just me), but that's it. Uair doesn't kill. It juggles really well, but it doesn't kill. Usmash barely kills and uair is weaker than that and needs to be sweetspotted with a small, frame-long hitbox. The "dair spike" (which I believe is actually just a meteor) isn't reliable because of that same hitbox. You have to hit with a small hitbubble that only lasts for 1 frame. Anything else pops the opponent up. Good luck with that. I already talked about Seed Bomb.

To be clear, I think that Ivy is potentially a master gimper/edgeguarder. Between bair, dtilt combos, ftilt, and fsmash, she can gimp really well. Spacees and tether-dependent recoveries are pretty free. I have literally NO trouble edgeguarding ZSS, Fox, or opposing Ivys. She's also pretty good at pressuring/building up damage while edgeguarding with Seed Bomb stuff. Still, her outright KO power is lacking.

I think Ivysaur's Jab is rather good. I've been messing around with it after landing halfway through with N-Air and it seems like a pretty safe means of cover, as well as a way to disrupt people's movement or expectations in order to follow up with a decent poke or a grab afterward. Its usefulness is still stifled due to how low her grab is, but, we do the best we can. Jab2 can get people offstage decently, but I'll admit I haven't really looked into stuff like Jab1 -> Dash Attack or Jab2 -> tilt, so maybe other options would be more reliable and more powerful.

Solarbeam is -really- powerful, even with optimal DI. Most people only wish they could kill at 55% before the hit, and it has a property very similar to Thunder in that it can end combos and threaten high recoveries to end lives at even lower percents. Vine Whip is limited due to being at greater risk on a miss and having lower range, but if you get the right setup or throw, it'll get people into edgeguarding position at the lower end of percents, which is usually all she needs. U-Air is a decent KO move; should do the trick on most stages at around 110%, and it often combos into a jumping Seed Bomb which does more damage and often finishes people who were otherwise right outside of death percents. Seed Bomb also covers the area where U-Throw wouldn't combo into Vine Whip, so it can feel like free damage at times. As its best use is finishing combos that send people up, I'd say it does its job at killing pretty well when it's used in the right ways. D-Air isn't that hard to land, especially as a combo (landing F-Air to prevent ledge sweetspotting -> D-Air is great for it, in my experience), and the weak hit isn't terrible for edgeguarding, either. Just...aim better. The best opportunities are in combos, which only require you not to mess up.

I'm pretty sure that Ivysaur is a contender for the most effective edgeguarder in the game (and I play Wario, so that's saying something). As a result, I think her lacking KO power is an interesting weakness that can often be mitigated by the sheer power and options of her edgeguarding. The real issue would be her difficulty to get close enough to get people offstage, as she has a lot of trouble from people who just run away from you.

On heavy chars and chars at low %'s, even if you DI away during Marth's fair combos, you'll get tipper fsmashed. Happens to me all the time. Even at mid %'s, you're gonna get faired quite a few times and might eat a nair at the end.

Edit: Anyway, I just discovered something with Ivy's (failed) tether that's EXTREMELY similar to a certain Samus tether tech in Melee. In Melee, Samus could perform something called the Instant Rising Grapple Cancel. If you tether too close to the stage, you enter freefall without actually tethering anything (the tether is cancelled). However, since you can AD before the tether, you can AD up a curved surface and then tether against the stage during the first few frames of the AD. The tether will be cancelled, but Samus will be flung waaay up (distance depends on how soon into the AD you tethered) in 'freefall' (more like 'freerise' ), during which she can land onstage with practically NO landing lag or grab the ledge. It's a great recovery mix-up that actually covers, I'd say, at least twice the vertical distance that her screw attack covers.

This tech is probably one of the biggest Samus-specific reasons (I have a ton of general reasoning that applies to everyone) I prefer Melee tethers over the current P:M/vBrawl ones.

Ivy can do something similar to what Samus can do using apparently similar mechanics. If you use Ivy competitively, you should know by now that upB causes Ivy to 'hop' upwards, even if she's already expended her DJ. This could be seen as akin to the AD before Melee Samus' tether. Now, have you noticed how, if you try to tether the stage from 'within range' but below and a little 'past' the ledge (the best way I can describe this is against an inwardly curved/slanted slope under and a little 'behind' the ledge instead of 'in front' of it), Ivy's upB is justcancelled? It seems like she suffers the same thing when she tries to tether from juuuuust past max range, but it's much easier to do consistently in the scenario I'm presenting (also more applicable). You can probably see what I'm getting at by now. By initiating an upB while hugging a slanted/curved side of a stage, you can get a fairly large jump upwards (the slant accentuates the otherwise 'small' hop that the upB gives) and Ivy can grab the ledge directly out of this jump. As of now, I've only tested this out extensively on FD, but the tech can be done consistently and EASILY. It seems potentially useful for increasing the number of angles Ivy can use to recover on stages with sloped/slanted sides (FD, FoD, etc).

To clarify further, I find Ivy somewhat easy to edgeguard now because her upB tether is easily intercepted by certain chars. Long lasting hitboxes, like sex kicks or, funnily enough, Ivy's bair, are really good at knocking her out of it. All one has to do is place a hitbox between her and the ledge. The tether's angles are too predictable. By having an additional recovery avenue on certain stages, Ivy could possibly mix up her recovery further, allowing her to dodge such simple edgeguards. I still have to test this tech more extensively in actual practice.

Btw, I doubt that I was the first to discover this, but I haven't seen anyone post about it, so here it is. It just caught my eye because it wasextremely similar to Samus' Instant Rising Grapple Cancel (a.k.a. High Jump).

If you're at low percents, getting F-Air -> F-Smash'd shouldn't be a big deal. Either way, it's still not reliable because you should be SDI'ing each individual hit up and away to prevent such things. I guarantee you that unless you're huge like Bowser, you fall like a space animal, or he took your double-jump, these strings are totally preventable. F-Air -> F-Air -> N-Air should be second-nature for Marth, because it's his best bet between damage and reliability.

The tether thing you described is a remnant of Brawl tethering, but I don't think it's useful. You don't get flung very high, the increased gravity in PM lowers the overall travel distance, and unlike Samus, who goes into tumble and can do any aerial, cancel the momentum with Down-B or shake out and airdodge, you're put in SpecialFall, meaning you're completely helpless until you land. Given how close to the ledge you have to be, you may as well just use the ledge invincibility to waveland, because Melee ledges are stupid.

 

[GunBlaze]

The Pokemon Master has spoken!

 

[bubbaking]

The tether thing you described is a remnant of Brawl tethering, but I don't think it's useful. You don't get flung very high, the increased gravity in PM lowers the overall travel distance, and unlike Samus, who goes into tumble and can do any aerial, cancel the momentum with Down-B or shake out and airdodge, you're put in SpecialFall, meaning you're completely helpless until you land. Given how close to the ledge you have to be, you may as well just use the ledge invincibility to waveland, because Melee ledges are stupid.

Ummm, I don't think we're talking about the same thing. If you do it up a curved surface, Ivy seems to go decently high. Btw, Samus ALSO goes into SpecialFall when performing an Instant Rising Grapple Cancel (which can ONLY be performed when Samus is next to the stage). She can't do anything until she grabs the ledge, lands, gets hit, or dies. What you are referring to is a regular Wall Grapple Cancel, one where she performs the same maneuver but further away from the stage so that her tether actually comes out but is broken, sending her into tumble which can be interrupted with anything other than an AD.

I don't exactly see how ledge wavelands are applicable here. I was talking about the tech as a form of recovery. I'm gonna test it again, but Ivy went up about a third of FD's side with it. That's pretty notable, IMO.

Edit: To see what I am talking about regarding Samus, watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bhGv6BQ6Gc

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The thing you're referring to is patently inferior to the Wall Grapple Cancel, which is pretty much the same thing but with -slightly- less distance and the ability to attack out of it.

It's also practically useless for Ivysaur, given that she has to be so close to the ledge when she would already have plenty of range and time to do a normal tether recovery.

 

[bubbaking]

[collapse=Misunderstood Samus ]Not going as high and being unable to land laglessly but being able to attack instantly and going much higher and being able to land laglessly at the cost of being in 'freefall' are two totally different things. How could you see them as the same?

Lolz, I'll chalk up your first remark to relative inexperience with the character (Samus). They're not the same thing AT ALL, except for in execution. Yes, you probably won't see the Instant Rising Grapple Cancel as much as the Wall Grapple Cancel (which you still won't see that often), possibly because many players don't even know about it or how it works, but it definitely comes into play definitively during certain situations where everything else is pretty much a worse option. I could give you plenty of examples of top and high level Sami using it in practice. Heck, even I've used it several times in practice.

Here's one fairly recent example (from last year, I think):
Duck vs M2K. M2K had Duck offstage and was planking by the ledge in a position to knock Duck out of any recover attempt he would try to do. However, Duck was able to Instant Rising Grapple Cancel past him and land laglessly on the stage (no other recovery method does that aside from performing a Rising Grapple that's allowed to fall far enough that Samus enters regular AD landing lag, which is actually STILL more than the Instant Rising Grapple Cancel lag). If he had upB'd, he would have been edgehogged. He was too low to make it onstage (Instant Rising Grapple Cancel has much more height when done perfectly), but even if he wasn't, his onstage upB landing would have been punished really hard. Any tether would have been knocked out immediately (Sheik's bair is stupidly good at knocking Samus out of her tether). That also goes for the Wall Grapple Cancel, which you claim is the "same thing". The bair hits Samus before the tether even gets to connect to the stage. Not only that, Samus has to be in position to tether, which is somewhat telegraphed. Thus, Duck drifted below M2K to the side of the stage. Normally, one would expect an upB in this situation. A tether would lead to death (right next to the stage) or being super easily edgeguarded (if Duck AD'd backwards first). Instead, Duck zipped right past M2K and landed onstage, suddenly in the superior position due to only regular landing lag (only 2 or 4 frames, whichever one is the lag of landing on the ground after doing nothing). Unlike other tethers, the Instant Rising Grapple Cancel is extremely fast and impossible to react to.

Since the tech goes so high, you can also land on platforms.

Is the move situational? Yes. Is it "inferior" to the Wall Grapple Cancel. Heavens, no! In fact, the Wall Grapple Cancel, while useful in more situations, is actually RISKIER than he Instant Rising Grapple Cancel.

People don't understand why Samus has the unarguably BEST recovery in the game after Jiggs (and maaaybe Mewtwo). Between being the 3rd floatiest char in the game, bomb jumps, Screw Attack, the best WJ in the game (can be done straight out of tethers for mix-ups), regular tethers (including ledge sweetspot ones), Rising Tethers (grab nothing and go a little higher than upB height), Wall Grapple Cancels, Instant Rising Grapple Cancels, and probably a thing or two that I'm missing right now, Samus has an answer for pretty much any recovery situation she's presented with. Most players, including Samus mains themselves, aren't even aware of everything they can do, or they forget to keep it all in mind while they are playing. Even top Samus mains (like DarrelD) don't know everything about them.[/collapse]

As for Ivy, the problem is that a "normal tether recovery" is so easily edgeguarded by anyone with a decent recovery and a 'sloppy' hitbox. Zard, other Ivys, Sheik, and a bunch of others can just drift down with her and occupy her tether space. She isn't invincible when upBing, nor does she get an attacking hitbox, I believe. She needs an ability to mix that up. I find that Ivy can gain quite a bit of height with this 'Vine Hop' (probably gonna call it that from now on) if she uses a curved surface.

Keep in mind that the only reason I suggest this is useful is that "mixing up" your recovery might involve dipping under and past your opponent (using your DJ) in a bid to get around their edgeguarding attempt. On stages like FD, that's automatic death. Ivy can't tether backwards. She tries but then the tether snaps and she plummets to her death. In this situation, all you can really do is the tech I just suggested.

Solarbeam is -really- powerful, even with optimal DI. Most people only wish they could kill at 55% before the hit, and it has a property very similar to Thunder in that it can end combos and threaten high recoveries to end lives at even lower percents.

Sorry, I worded that badly. By "bad DI", I meant the DI needed to combo into the move, as in the move requires bad DI during the combo leading into it for it to be reliable enough to justify charging it over the course of the match.

Edit: Same goes for Vine Whip.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

[collapse=Misunderstood Samus ]Not going as high and being unable to land laglessly but being able to attack instantly and going much higher and being able to land laglessly at the cost of being in 'freefall' are two totally different things. How could you see them as the same?

Lolz, I'll chalk up your first remark to relative inexperience with the character (Samus). They're not the same thing AT ALL, except for in execution. Yes, you probably won't see the Instant Rising Grapple Cancel as much as the Wall Grapple Cancel (which you still won't see that often), possibly because many players don't even know about it or how it works, but it definitely comes into play definitively during certain situations where everything else is pretty much a worse option. I could give you plenty of examples of top and high level Sami using it in practice. Heck, even I've used it several times in practice.

Here's one fairly recent example (from last year, I think):
Duck vs M2K. M2K had Duck offstage and was planking by the ledge in a position to knock Duck out of any recover attempt he would try to do. However, Duck was able to Instant Rising Grapple Cancel past him and land laglessly on the stage (no other recovery method does that aside from performing a Rising Grapple that's allowed to fall far enough that Samus enters regular AD landing lag, which is actually STILL more than the Instant Rising Grapple Cancel lag). If he had upB'd, he would have been edgehogged. He was too low to make it onstage (Instant Rising Grapple Cancel has much more height when done perfectly), but even if he wasn't, his onstage upB landing would have been punished really hard. Any tether would have been knocked out immediately (Sheik's bair is stupidly good at knocking Samus out of her tether). That also goes for the Wall Grapple Cancel, which you claim is the "same thing". The bair hits Samus before the tether even gets to connect to the stage. Not only that, Samus has to be in position to tether, which is somewhat telegraphed. Thus, Duck drifted below M2K to the side of the stage. Normally, one would expect an upB in this situation. A tether would lead to death (right next to the stage) or being super easily edgeguarded (if Duck AD'd backwards first). Instead, Duck zipped right past M2K and landed onstage, suddenly in the superior position due to only regular landing lag (only 2 or 4 frames, whichever one is the lag of landing on the ground after doing nothing). Unlike other tethers, the Instant Rising Grapple Cancel is extremely fast and impossible to react to.

Since the tech goes so high, you can also land on platforms.

Is the move situational? Yes. Is it "inferior" to the Wall Grapple Cancel. Heavens, no! In fact, the Wall Grapple Cancel, while useful in more situations, is actually RISKIER than he Instant Rising Grapple Cancel.

People don't understand why Samus has the unarguably BEST recovery in the game after Jiggs (and maaaybe Mewtwo). Between being the 3rd floatiest char in the game, bomb jumps, Screw Attack, the best WJ in the game (can be done straight out of tethers for mix-ups), regular tethers (including ledge sweetspot ones), Rising Tethers (grab nothing and go a little higher than upB height), Wall Grapple Cancels, Instant Rising Grapple Cancels, and probably a thing or two that I'm missing right now, Samus has an answer for pretty much any recovery situation she's presented with. Most players, including Samus mains themselves, aren't even aware of everything they can do, or they forget to keep it all in mind while they are playing. Even top Samus mains (like DarrelD) don't know everything about them.[/collapse]

As for Ivy, the problem is that a "normal tether recovery" is so easily edgeguarded by anyone with a decent recovery and a 'sloppy' hitbox. Zard, other Ivys, Sheik, and a bunch of others can just drift down with her and occupy her tether space. She isn't invincible when upBing, nor does she get an attacking hitbox, I believe. She needs an ability to mix that up. I find that Ivy can gain quite a bit of height with this 'Vine Hop' (probably gonna call it that from now on) if she uses a curved surface.

Keep in mind that the only reason I suggest this is useful is that "mixing up" your recovery might involve dipping under and past your opponent (using your DJ) in a bid to get around their edgeguarding attempt. On stages like FD, that's automatic death. Ivy can't tether backwards. She tries but then the tether snaps and she plummets to her death. In this situation, all you can really do is the tech I just suggested.


Sorry, I worded that badly. By "bad DI", I meant the DI needed to combo into the move, as in the move requires bad DI during the combo leading into it for it to be reliable enough to justify charging it over the course of the match.

Edit: Same goes for Vine Whip.

Samus still has 4 frames of landing lag on the thing you're describing, as do most "empty" landings. L-Canceling any of Samus's aerials would result in 7 frames of landing lag, which is worse but gives you a hitbox to cover yourself with. Alternatively (and this is the real kicker), you can shake out of tumble and wavedash onto the stage, generally making it faster and safer to do. Also-also, the thing you're describing isn't that much faster than other options, and any edgehogging Sheik with experience enough to know what that is would still be able to swat it on reaction (and we all know that M2K isn't the most reliable individual when it comes to non-top tier matchups).

I'd be willing to see if it has more merit for Ivysaur, given that Melee Samus had a world of tools for getting back on-stage compared to Ivysaur, but I don't think your argument for it being optimal for Samus against someone who has ever seen it holds water. Still, she does have a decent number of tools. D-Air to stall her fall is a godsend. Since her tether reel only takes something like 2-4 frames and she can come in at different angles (if you snap horizontally, you'll go toward the ledge horizontally, etc.), it's usually not nearly as simple as "just get in position with a hitbox." Also, since you can tether cancel without going into freefall, that further complicates things for the edgeguarder, as they have to make a guess for whether she's going to cancel and tether immediately afterward from the same spot, on top of the decision of whether or not she's going to swing downward before tethering. F-Air and Forward-B can also be a nuisance that works as reasonable, safe protection (since you can ledgehop into the lingering Forward-B).

Solarbeam doesn't require an incorrect DI choice from the opponent to land it. With Ivysaur's run jump being as solid as it is, as well as nice B-Reverse momentum before firing, it's not hard to land it against "optimal" DI after a N-Air, F-Air, B-Air (on floaty characters, mostly), and U-Air, as well as the standard U-Throw/D-Throw mix-up. It's a similar situation for Up-B, though many of them are not reliable at higher percents. You can trap certain recoveries and force people to use their double-jumps early with it, too, further opening up opportunities for easy stocks taken. While I often try to use Solarbeam as a trap for people's double-jumps, I don't have much of a problem comboing into it, despite how young the game is so far. I think its ease of use will only become more apparent over time.

 

[ss118]

How does Ivysaur do against high pressure characters? Unfortunately my friends don't really play them so I don't have much experience, but I would imagine that as per usual in this game, a decent Fox/ Falco would give you trouble... but as per usual, if they **** up you more than punish them for it. Possibly not as easily due to Ivy's rather lackluster oos options.

My friends use some combination of Luigi, Lucario, Lucas, Diddy, DDD, Zelda, Charizard. They have pressure at times but nothing compared to Fox/Falco.

 

[leelue]

Ivy's dash grab is better than her standing grab?
That's pretty cool.
I've wanted dash grabs to get some tradeoff/love for some time now.