Solar Powered: Ivysaur Q&A/General Discussion Thread

[JOE!]

I think making her dtilt and leaf less ccable in turn could also do wonders

 

[Camisado]

I think Nair coming out faster would help; getting combo'd is by far her biggest weakness.

She's about as linear as Brawl G&W. Generally speaking, her moves have a very specific utility, and only a couple of those moves' utilities overlap. It makes for an extremely predictable character and her place in the tiers will only drop as the combo skills of the player base increase and our lack of ability to get out of combos grow as a hindrance.

 

[Sudai]

NAir has active dmg starting on frame 4. The issue isn't its speed, it's Ivy's jump start that makes it seem slow. Even if we could NAir OoS faster it still wouldn't be that great due to its extremely low range.

 

[JOE!]

She has 4 frames for jump squat, which makes nair come out at frame 8 technically

 

[PB&J]

faster dash attack, being able to either throw rasor leaf further or do 3 before hitting the ground, stronger bair and make solar beam much stronger would make ivy perfect imo

edit: I also think dsmash could be better

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Make us able to aim Solarbeam

Within reason, of course.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You guys are weird. I feel like you're asking for all the wrong changes, and that Ivysaur needs more changes than outright buffs to excel. Her moveset is very polarized as it is.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

You guys are weird. I feel like you're asking for all the wrong changes, and that Ivysaur needs more changes than outright buffs to excel. Her moveset is very polarized as it is.

Care to explain what you mean?

 

[otter]

Care to explain what you mean?

She has very good moves and very bad moves, so asking for solarbeam to be even better is sort of silly when she has moves that you should never ever do such as down smash.

 

[JOE!]

Indeed.

Lets look at her questionable moves:

Dsmash, Ftilt?, Fsmash?, Dair? (as an attack onstage), Possibly her side throws?

 

[Dng3]

I think Down Smash is great. Have you tried edge guarding with that thing?

Some changes I feel Ivysaur needs are,

1) The problem with d-tilt not always linking together. Probably due to CC.

2) Throws should be stronger, mainly the back throw. I mean, that thing looks vicious but doesn't have the killing power.

3) Up-tilt should be slightly faster on start up.

4) Increase either hit stun or knock back for Fair so that it's safer to use at lower percentages without being punished.

5) Someone mentioned that Ivysaur should be heavier. +1

 

[JOE!]

Dsmash is the slowest to come out, and shortest lasting of her smashes, and to edge guard she has Bair which is much better.

 

[Dng3]

Dsmash is the slowest to come out, and shortest lasting of her smashes, and to edge guard she has Bair which is much better.

Yea I guess if we're speaking in terms of on stage uses then it does need small buffs. I'd say just increase start up. It wouldn't make sense for it to have better range or power than Fsmash.

 

[Deleted member]

Dsmash and Fsmash have good range but that's about it. They're both laggy and very unsafe.

Ivy, imo, needs a lot of work. He feels unfinished and has majorly exploitable weaknesses.

Some of my personal changes to Ivysaur would be:

Jab - more range
Dtilt - less susceptible to CC
Fsmash - slightly less cooldown, slightly more KB
Dsmash - much less startup and cooldown
Utilt - slightly less startup
Fair - slighly less startup, more BKB so that it's safer at lower percentages
Synthesis - heals at a slightly faster pace, maybe 1.3-1.5 times faster (Solar Beam charging time remains the same)
Razor Leaf - significantly less startup and cooldown, smash RL is a single hit of 8%
Bthrow - more KB growth
Pummel - heals 2% instead of 1%
A decent but not extreme increase in weight.

I would increase weight and buff the healing slightly because of how frail he feels. The healing doesn't help too much currently because it doesn't happen quickly, he's pretty light, and he gets combod really hard, especially by faster characters.

 

[JOE!]

Can you add to the smash razor leaf: Same timing as super missiles ?

 

[bubbaking]

You guys are weird. I feel like you're asking for all the wrong changes, and that Ivysaur needs more changes than outright buffs to excel. Her moveset is very polarized as it is.

To be fair, someone kinda said that before you did.

She's about as linear as Brawl G&W. Generally speaking, her moves have a very specific utility, and only a couple of those moves' utilities overlap.

Ivy has very polarizing moves and once you shut down one, you take away one of Ivy's major answers to a certain situation. However, perhaps the most polarizing part of Ivy's moveset is always aiming to charge Solarbeam. As such, I've actually tried to make my Ivy sustainable without it. Still have to work more on it to see how viable it actually is. Maybe I'm wasting my time.

make solar beam much stronger would make ivy perfect imo

edit: I also think dsmash could be better

This and THIS! As it is now, Ivy's Solarbeam is kinda shaping up to be like Lucas' OU. It's almost not worth it. I usually save it until I have my opponent locked in a combo at low %'s, but it doesn't really build up that much damage and it doesn't have enough KB to make it worthwhile. It's also hard to hit with if the opponent is always DIing correctly.

Dsmaaash. IMO, dsmash is one Ivy's worst moves, along with maybe utilt. It's too slow to come out, it's too slow to end, and the move has very minimal KB. Every time I use it, I ask myself why I didn't just use something else. I mean, I personally think it would be great if Ivy had access to both dtilt AND dsmash as CC options. Maybe that's just the Samus in me talking.

she has moves that you should never ever do such as down smash.

Thiiiiiiiiiiiiiis.

Lets look at her questionable moves:

Dsmash, Ftilt?, Fsmash?, Dair? (as an attack onstage), Possibly her side throws?

Take out all of those, except for her dsmash, bthrow, and dair, IMO. Her ftilt is really good, I think. Comes out fast, puts up a lot of pressure, racks up damage, has decent range, it even has a hitbox behind Ivy. Fsmash has good range and I think you can use it to 'technically dodge' attacks because Ivy rears back during start-up. It's decently powerful, too.

Already talked about dsmash. I think the problem with dair is that the meteor hitbox is only active for one frame (if the frame data thread is correct). The other two frames it is active, it hits the opponent upwards, nullifying any edgeguard you might have been trying to set up with it. The other problem is this meteor hitbox is really small. This isn't a problem with her other 'bulb moves' because the small 1-frame sweetspots on them hit the opponent in the same direction as the longer, larger sourpots, so you can use them and get the results that you wanted reliably. Half the time I use Ivy's dair, I expect a meteor but I pop them up (at an awkward angle at high %'s, too). As it is now, this move is really only useful as a recovery move and a damaging aerial mix-up, especially with platforms.

Last problematic move here is bthrow. Seriously, why doesn't this throw kill at high %'s? It's like Zard's uthrow in 2.1, but WORSE. It looks like it should kill, but it comes nowhere close to doing the job. This is a very major problem because she needs a reliable kill throw for opponents at high %'s, opponents she has a really hard time comboing (she already doesn't have long combos to begin with). Even u/dthrow fail to work reliably at those high %'s. This is a problem that Marth and Lucario have, but the difference is that Marth and Lucario can efficiently net their kills earlier with their more aggressive playstyles. They have long combos and they have strong kill moves to end those combos. Ivy has a hard time killing anything. She regularly works her opponents to high %'s, but when she lands the grab, she lacks a means with which to secure the kill. Her smashes kinda suck for reliable killing as it is (fsmash is a good punishment option and usmash is a nice juggler, but they're not reliable for setting up kills) and her aerials are even worse. If you're not gimping early, you're simply not killing for a long time. This is ALMOST a problem with Melee Samus, but Melee Samus can gimp really well, and she also survives drawn-out battles better.

2) Throws should be stronger, mainly the back throw. I mean, that thing looks vicious but doesn't have the killing power.

This.

5) Someone mentioned that Ivysaur should be heavier. +1

That would be me.

 

[stingers]

people are complaining about...solar beam?
wtf?
that move is too good already.

 

[bubbaking]

It's probably the more minor of our gripes. As you can see, most of us actually have issues with her weight, dsmash, and bthrow. Still, the Solarbeam isn't nearly as useful as the time it takes to charge it would dictate. At low-mid %'s, it doesn't kill. At high %'s, sure it kills, but I wish it wasn't one of my ONLY killing options before the opponent hit super-high %. Not to mention, I usually only hit my opponent with it because of bad DI or he failed to pay attention to his situation.

Some of my personal changes to Ivysaur would be:

Jab - more range

I'm actually not sure this is needed, in all honesty. I mean, the jab comes out on frame 3 and it's fairly disjointed. I think, if anything, jab 2 could be given a tiny bit more KB, but that's it.

Synthesis - heals at a slightly faster pace, maybe 1.3-1.5 times faster (Solar Beam charging time remains the same)

I personally think you should actually reverse these two. Solarbeam charging should take place at a faster rate but healing should remain as is. This move shouldn't really make healing too primary of a reason to be using it. The main purpose should be getting Solarbeam, and raising the damage healed kinda overshadows that. Also, I'm not sure giving any character too strong of an ability to heal is healthy for Smash.

I would increase weight and buff the healing slightly because of how frail he feels. The healing doesn't help too much currently because it doesn't happen quickly, he's pretty light, and he gets combod really hard, especially by faster characters.

Again, the healing really shouldn't help too much because that shouldn't be the primary goal of Ivy's charging moves. It's just a nice side-benefit to successfully charging Solarbeam. If Ivy healed herself at a rate that actually meant something majorly, that could cause serious problems. However, to make Solarbeam more useful in a match, I think it could actually use a faster charge.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

She doesn't need more weight because she doesn't look like she weighs much. You're all thinking about really basic, raw buffs that don't really improve her playstyle, and that's not going to fix any fundamental issues. The metagame is still rather young, but, you're all going about this the wrong way. It's not that her stats are bad; it's that her moveset doesn't flow well together. Moves like F-Air completely overshadow other stuff. A fair amount of her moves should be nerfed with other things happening in exchange.

For example, I like the idea of D-Tilt having its range reduced, but that all the hitboxes should work like the sweetspot. Makes it take more commitment while giving a stronger reward to people who manage to land it anyway.

F-Air could have its range and speed reduced but see an increase in damage and knockback, while B-Air could be sped up and see a noticeable decrease in power. This creates a dynamic between the two moves. B-Air is safe and quick (and so could safely be thrown out on reaction to opponents' movements), while F-Air is slow but nets you a greater reward for landing it. F-Air beats CC-ing and B-Air beats shields, and a faster B-Air would allow for landing B-Air -> D-Tilt/grab/Forward-B mix-ups, as the decreased power makes it so that they wouldn't fly far after being hit.

I have a lot of ideas, but it remains to be seen what would really help the most. I guess that's what playtesting is for.

 

[GunBlaze]

Thank you for those words, Reflex. Glad to know DA BESS PT is still on da pokemanz.

 

[JOE!]

She doesn't need more weight because she doesn't look like she weighs much. You're all thinking about really basic, raw buffs that don't really improve her playstyle, and that's not going to fix any fundamental issues. The metagame is still rather young, but, you're all going about this the wrong way. It's not that her stats are bad; it's that her moveset doesn't flow well together. Moves like F-Air completely overshadow other stuff. A fair amount of her moves should be nerfed with other things happening in exchange.

Do they *have* to be nerfed to be buffed? I mean, look at poor Ike and Lucario...
(but legit, why not just buff instead of take away at the same time if she is performing badly?)

For example, I like the idea of D-Tilt having its range reduced, but that all the hitboxes should work like the sweetspot. Makes it take more commitment while giving a stronger reward to people who manage to land it anyway.

Are you talking about the Up-angle hitboxes near the end? Why not make say, the 3rd hitbox in also have the upward angle and keep the range? I personally love having such a long range poke option. Speaking of range, Razor Leaf should definitely be faster, it takes 51 frames per throw as-is

F-Air could have its range and speed reduced but see an increase in damage and knockback, while B-Air could be sped up and see a noticeable decrease in power. This creates a dynamic between the two moves. B-Air is safe and quick (and so could safely be thrown out on reaction to opponents' movements), while F-Air is slow but nets you a greater reward for landing it. F-Air beats CC-ing and B-Air beats shields, and a faster B-Air would allow for landing B-Air -> D-Tilt/grab/Forward-B mix-ups, as the decreased power makes it so that they wouldn't fly far after being hit.

Slower, sure. But where would you cut the range? I also agree with the Bair suggestion as long as it keeps it's damage, but loses KB.

I have a lot of ideas, but it remains to be seen what would really help the most. I guess that's what playtesting is for.

No harm in tossing more out for discussion

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Do they *have* to be nerfed to be buffed? I mean, look at poor Ike and Lucario...
(but legit, why not just buff instead of take away at the same time if she is performing badly?)

Are you talking about the Up-angle hitboxes near the end? Why not make say, the 3rd hitbox in also have the upward angle and keep the range? I personally love having such a long range poke option. Speaking of range, Razor Leaf should definitely be faster, it takes 51 frames per throw as-is

Slower, sure. But where would you cut the range? I also agree with the Bair suggestion as long as it keeps it's damage, but loses KB.



No harm in tossing more out for discussion

Because her hitboxes are enormous and obnoxious. Her lack of potential for burst range, combined with those hitboxes, give her a very "if x, do y" playstyle that stifles creativity and active thought.

Certain strengths of certain moves overshadow other moves, giving players basically no reason to use stuff like F-Smash and D-Smash, even though they're fairly good moves on their own.

The range of D-Tilt, much like many of her moves, makes its use completely devoid of thought. I'd rather it get better against CC-ing and still make it take more commitment to use. Well-spaced F-Tilt is already an excellent poke, and so are F-Air/B-Air. She's already set with moves that keep people away; there is nothing that the "send you away" D-Tilt does that another move doesn't already do. May as well give it a unique reason for existing.

Are you kidding me? F-Air outranges Marth and you're worried about range? The range already makes it so that it prevents literally every character from sweetspotting the ledge. If anything, it should stop moving downward after it meets horizontally with Ivysaur.

B-Air doesn't need to do much damage if F-Air is doing 14-15% in this hypothetical scenario. You're asking for too much in one move; I think that would be poor design.

I have to keep stuff to myself to surprise you in 3.0 if it goes over well in testing.

 

[Deleted member]

I can see the potential use in those changes, but reducing range on some of Ivy's moves doesn't sit too well with me. One of the reasons I like playing as Ivy is because of the huge range of his vines. It seems like that would make it easier for other characters to get in and do bad things to him.

The one buff most of us seem to agree on is Razor Leaf. As is, it's a fairly laggy, mediocre projectile.

I'm actually not sure this is needed, in all honesty. I mean, the jab comes out on frame 3 and it's fairly disjointed. I think, if anything, jab 2 could be given a tiny bit more KB, but that's it.

I just don't feel like the move has much use. They kinda have to be literally standing right in front of you, and jab 1 doesn't seem like it leads into much.

Again, the healing really shouldn't help too much because that shouldn't be the primary goal of Ivy's charging moves. It's just a nice side-benefit to successfully charging Solarbeam. If Ivy healed herself at a rate that actually meant something majorly, that could cause serious problems. However, to make Solarbeam more useful in a match, I think it could actually use a faster charge.

Solar Beam is pretty good as is, though - 25% damage, high KB, goes through platforms, infinite range, can't be reflected.

The healing is to attempt to counteract the fact that Ivysaur gets completely wrecked when somebody gets in on him. Damage builds up on him quickly in those cases, and you'd think the healing would increase her survivability at least a little bit. I'm not saying to make healing her main goal obviously, but at least make it a bit more noticable.

 

[JOE!]

Marth's fair covers more area though, doesn't it? Above, in front of, and near directly under him, Ivy just covers above and in front of him, with a bit of below.

Anywho, Fair can do 14-15%, but Bair would still be different with it being faster and totaling 8-9% with far less KB. And how much would you cut down on Dtilt's range? In Brawl it barely went past her jab lol.

 

[bubbaking]

I just don't feel like the move has much use. They kinda have to be literally standing right in front of you, and jab 1 doesn't seem like it leads into much.

Jabs literally aren't supposed to lead into much. They create mix-up situations. For a lot of characters, those mix-ups consist of jab 1 > dsmash, jab 1 > grab, jab 1 > dtilt (or some other tilt), jab 1 > CC jab 1, jab 1 > jab 2, etc. Now, with those examples I hope you see the REAL problem at hand here. One of the premiere examples was jab 1 > dsmash. Ivy's dsmash (and all her other smashes, but mostly dsmash) is literally too slow/laggy to take advantage of this. Jab 1 > grab is almost legit, but Ivy's standing grab sucks. Jab 2 doesn't seem to have enough KB, IMO. All that really leaves is CC jab and jab > tilt stuff. Now, from Samus experience, I can tell you that CC jab stuff is really good for shield pressure and stuffing options, but when that is one of your only options, it's not as helpful as it could be.

At least Samus also has jab > dtilt/dsmash. The problem isn't with Ivy's jab; it's with her other moves. If the opponent is standing right in front of Ivy, a jab stuffs their actions, but now how do I follow up when all of my options are slow as heck?

She doesn't need more weight because she doesn't look like she weighs much.

Are you telling me that Ivy looks like she's lighter than Snake? If so, we'd have to agree to majorly disagree on that point.

You're all thinking about really basic, raw buffs that don't really improve her playstyle, and that's not going to fix any fundamental issues.

What exactly is wrong with Ivy's playstyle, though? I'd like to hear your opinion on this.

Moves like F-Air completely overshadow other stuff. A fair amount of her moves should be nerfed with other things happening in exchange.

What is this problem people have with moves somewhat "overshadowing" other moves? How often do you see Fox or Falco use their fair? Oh, and let's not get into Ganon's utilt.

I like the idea of D-Tilt having its range reduced, but that all the hitboxes should work like the sweetspot. Makes it take more commitment while giving a stronger reward to people who manage to land it anyway.

F-Air could have its range and speed reduced but see an increase in damage and knockback, while B-Air could be sped up and see a noticeable decrease in power.

The speed changes are all fine and dandy, but what ever happened to Ivy supposed to being a zoner with range?

This creates a dynamic between the two moves. B-Air is safe and quick (and so could safely be thrown out on reaction to opponents' movements), while F-Air is slow but nets you a greater reward for landing it. F-Air beats CC-ing and B-Air beats shields, and a faster B-Air would allow for landing B-Air -> D-Tilt/grab/Forward-B mix-ups, as the decreased power makes it so that they wouldn't fly far after being hit.

But from what I've seen, these moves already fit that criteria somewhat. Bair is the safer, faster option and Fair has greater start-up, making it less safe, but also has more KB. The only problem is that fair is too weak, and bair might possibly be too slow. Also, if bair was faster, woudn't it beat CCing even better than fair did a la Falcon's nair?

[COLLAPSE="Ivy's Dtilt"]

[/COLLAPSE]
Are you talking about the Up-angle hitboxes near the end? Why not make say, the 3rd hitbox in also have the upward angle and keep the range? I personally love having such a long range poke option.

This. Why should Ivy be giving up her long-range poking options?

[COLLAPSE="Ivy's Fair"]

[/COLLAPSE]
Slower, sure. But where would you cut the range? I also agree with the Bair suggestion as long as it keeps it's damage, but loses KB.

This as well. Fair's range seems to be a perfect compliment to bair. They cover similar ranges so they're actually interchangeable for an opponent in a certain position that happens to be at the max range of one of these attacks (which is what you seem to want anyway, Reflex, seeing as how you're saying that Ivy's moves should flow together and compliment each other).

Can't fair and dtilt be buffed without nerfing their range in "nerftweak" fashion?

 

[bubbaking]

Double post, but it's been several hours...

Because her hitboxes are enormous and obnoxious. Her lack of potential for burst range, combined with those hitboxes, give her a very "if x, do y" playstyle that stifles creativity and active thought.

Woooaaaaah, no offense but why does this matter at all? I mean, I disagree that Ivy's playstyle is uncreative, but all that aside, whose job is it to decide whether Ivy's playstyle requires "creativity and active thought" (*looks at Puff's playstyle*)? <___<

I mean, I could argue that Link and maybe TL also have uncreative, rather 'dumbed down' playstyles. That's kind of what happens with campy zoners. I feel like you're dissatisfied with the niche many of us thought that Ivy was going to fill, so you're turning her into some kind of 'burst CQC' character, when that was really never a concern of.....anyone.

Let me just quote here what projectm.dantarion.com says about Ivysaur that originally led me to believe (well, after I'd played some Ivy in the developer's builds) that Ivy was going to be a 'less creative, maybe little more boring to some' zoner:

"With a focus on walling with vines..."
"Her jab attack long-reaching 2-part whip attack capable of quickly putting space between Ivysaur and her opponent."
"Ivysaur's Forward-Aerial is a quick double-whip attack that can be used to control space, combo, and gimp the opponent. In other situations, Ivysaur's Back-Aerial is extremely handy, with very large hitboxes that can make any opponent reconsider their approach."
"Her Side-B, Razor Leaf, can be used as either a slower zoning move that can hit multiple times, or as a smash-throw to generate a quicker single hit."

Everything just seems to be worded in a way that would suggest that Ivy is supposed to be focused on keeping you out, not engaging you in 'burst close combat'. She just needs these zoning tools to actually be effective at zoning.

Certain strengths of certain moves overshadow other moves, giving players basically no reason to use stuff like F-Smash and D-Smash, even though they're fairly good moves on their own.

There's no reason to use dsmash because dsmash is BAD. I don't know where you got this idea that it's a "fairly good move on its own". Nerf everything else and I'll still barely use dsmash as it is now. It's weak, slow to start, and slow to end.

There's plenty of reason to use fsmash now. It isn't overshadowed by anything, especially since Ivy has such a hard time outright killing anything. It's a great punishment option, and it allows her to space herself just outside of opponent's moves (by rearing back) while counterattacking with full force. It's a great move that isn't overshadowed by ANYTHING.

For instance, if Marth or Sheik is recovering and I force them to land on-stage, or I force a tether recover to hop over the ledge instead of grabbing it by edgehogging, I punish with fsmash. Fair (and everything else) is too weak to be good punishment.

The range of D-Tilt, much like many of her moves, makes its use completely devoid of thought. I'd rather it get better against CC-ing and still make it take more commitment to use. Well-spaced F-Tilt is already an excellent poke, and so are F-Air/B-Air. She's already set with moves that keep people away; there is nothing that the "send you away" D-Tilt does that another move doesn't already do. May as well give it a unique reason for existing.

As JOE said, why not just improve the hitboxes on dtilt by making more of them pop the opponent above Ivy without decreasing the move's range? That would make it unique enough, wouldn't it? By decreasing the range, you're basically turning it into a different kind of 'jab' with much worse frame data (and jab already beats CC 'cause if you've been reading my previous posts, Ivy's CC jab is rockin').

Are you kidding me? F-Air outranges Marth and you're worried about range? The range already makes it so that it prevents literally every character from sweetspotting the ledge. If anything, it should stop moving downward after it meets horizontally with Ivysaur.

It would be a lot better if it was stronger and the opponent couldn't just DI the hit upwards to help himself recover (and put himself out of combo range from Ivy). Besides, Marth's fair is faster than ours. You're better off comparing our fair to his bair.

I can see the potential use in those changes, but reducing range on some of Ivy's moves doesn't sit too well with me. One of the reasons I like playing as Ivy is because of the huge range of his vines. It seems like that would make it easier for other characters to get in and do bad things to him.

This. We're playing Ivy TO wall people out. That's why she attracts us. There's a reason I, the Melee Samus main and Brawl DDD main, chose to pick up ROB very early in 2.1 and Ivy very early in 2.5 (before she was even announced, actually). I take it most of us share that reason, seeing as how SFTP also plays Zelda, a fairly 'wall-ish' character. We like that kind of playstyle.

The healing is to attempt to counteract the fact that Ivysaur gets completely wrecked when somebody gets in on him. Damage builds up on him quickly in those cases, and you'd think the healing would increase her survivability at least a little bit. I'm not saying to make healing her main goal obviously, but at least make it a bit more noticable.

I get what you're saying, and I guess this would be a useful way of extending Ivy's longevity, but I honestly don't think it would be needed if Ivy's weight was just increased in the first place so she could survive more hits.

 

[Deleted member]

Bubba has it right. Most of us Ivy players don't have a problem with how he plays; we have a problem with how ineffective he is at what he was meant to do against a lot of characters.

Actually, these are the exact issues I predicted we would have even before Ivy was announced. His huge range and walling abilities are difficult to balance, but it's important to preserve those aspects of the character. It's how Ivysaur was destined to play and what makes us excited about him.

 

[Sudai]

I'd have to agree. Don't change the way Ivy plays change the effectiveness. The kind of changes Reflex is proposing would make Ivy a very very different character.

 

[Jandlebars]

I don't see how changing the properties on some of Ivy's basic moves, to at least adequately cover some of her weaknesses in close combat (most of which is in regards to people getting quite close to her, which I'm sure we can agree many characters can already do with flying colours) directly changes her entire playstyle.
From what Reflex is suggesting, he's not suggesting something so drastic as making Solarbeam work like Wario Waft.

 

[Swann]

It'd be nice if Ivysaur had something the functional equivalent of melee jiggs' bair.

Mmm hmmmm.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

No reason. She covers more range when she has multiple moves that function like Marth's swings. Also, her mediocre air speed wouldn't be good with such a move.

 

[Swann]

I was thinking more along the lines of killing power in the air. Fair chains into itself but it doesn't always lead to better positioning, bair doesn't have quite enough hitstun until it itself semi-spikes.

Just musing, nothing serious.

 

[bubbaking]

I don't see how changing the properties on some of Ivy's basic moves, to at least adequately cover some of her weaknesses in close combat (most of which is in regards to people getting quite close to her, which I'm sure we can agree many characters can already do with flying colours) directly changes her entire playstyle.
From what Reflex is suggesting, he's not suggesting something so drastic as making Solarbeam work like Wario Waft.

Those suggested changes are "drastic" because they're more than just 'basic property changes'. Ivy is supposed to be a strong zoner. Dtilt is quite clearly one of her strong tools in establishing that, yet one of the changes being suggested involves shortening its range by a good deal, just to get 'better hitboxes'. These changes are not solving the problem while allowing Ivy to keep her current playstyle that endears to most of her users.

 

[ss118]

I personally don't have a problem with the way Ivysaur is at the moment. She's not fast and she gets comboed easily and potentially has trouble recovering depending on the opposing character, but like Reflex said with the way her moves are polarized towards fair, dtilt, side b, ftilt, bair, etc, why do you need anything else?

Give her side b a crit chance LOL brawl- style <3

 

[stingers]

fair is just silly because of its ridiculous range. it needs to not be so damn good.
itd be cool if she had better runspeed, but that prolly wont happen.
really, all ivy needs is a gtfo me move. she has next to no grounded mobility and generously mediocre air mobility, and the strength of top tier rushdown compared to the strength of her zoning tools is just so mismatched theres no hope for her against those types of characters currently (ex. fox, falcon)

 

[ss118]

Does Falcon **** her in the same sense Falcon ***** Marth? >_>

 

[JOE!]

her Down B should have a GTFO hitbox as she spins around and flashes brown

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Not sure if it was mentioned, but if you fastfall during U-Air, your fall speed decreases significantly (as the fastfall speed is slower than the U-Air momentum). This allows you to use it from much lower without killing yourself, as well as gives you more time to steer it while going down to hit someone.

 

[Sudai]

That seems like an oversight but definitely good info.

 

[JOE!]

Just food for thought: Lucario imo is a ******** MU. Aura Sphere >>>> Razor leaf (that thing needs to be transcendent or sumthin)