Solar Powered: Ivysaur Q&A/General Discussion Thread

[Sudai]

So I played a good 3 hours today. Most I've gotten to play since the update and I figured I'd post some things I like.

First hit jab links in to tipper DTilt really well at mid percents.

FTilt it more punishable than I had hoped. If they're too close they can SDI through and punish us after the last hit on the back hit for a while.

I absolutely love FAir now. If you time close to the ground you can get an FTilt/DTilt after it. It's also a great "stay the **** away from me" move when we're on the ledge and need to get up.

Ivy's recovery is redonkulous. I don't think any of y'all need to be told that but I love it. lol



Stage wise I was -really- liking FD and Dreamland 64. The less approach options the better, the bigger the blast zones the better. Played a few games on Corneria too and what we can do with a wall is just silly. F/DTilts mixed in with grabs all day.



Slow razor leaf is an awesome tech chase option. I found myself throwing it at the far tech and if they went towards you, easy punish. If they didn't tech, the leaf pulls them off the ground and sets up for combos. If they tech away they're either gonna get hit by the leaf or be put in shield and we can get a grab usually. Standard tech is an easy punish with whatever you want.

 

[pyrofox13]

How do you DI against Ivysaur. My friend mains him and i DI everything, maybe its weak i dunno, but even if i do he still manages to keep his combo going. Please, I feel like a noob for this, asking for help against Ivysaur in an Ivysaur thread, but please just give me some tips.

 

[the melon!!!!!]

How do you DI against Ivysaur. My friend mains him and i DI everything, maybe its weak i dunno, but even if i do he still manages to keep his combo going. Please, I feel like a noob for this, asking for help against Ivysaur in an Ivysaur thread, but please just give me some tips.

If you're using Diddy Kong, as your avi/char dictate, then I'd say it's more so about not getting into his combos in the first place. Ivy can do a TON of stuff when her opponents are in the mid ranges of damage, and her projectile/spacing game makes it difficult for most characters that aren't spacies, Marth, or Diddy Kong, to get in on her at times. I'd say get to Ivy fast and early, look for gimps. In regards to DI and defensive/evasive stuff, I'd say treat it similarly to how you would Marth and melee Samus: DI the aerials out or up (or both ), AVOID ANY AND ALL 45 DEGREE ANGLE SITUATIONS, and its much easier to be up close on an Ivy player than it is to be at a distance.

I'm sorry if I didn't completely answer the DI question, but it's kinda difficult to answer right now considering she hasn't been usable in this for too long.

 

[JOE!]

Talked about this for a moment in my guide, but its better suited here:

On her bulb oriented moves, the actual visuals are slightly larger than the hitbox and linger for longer. Would it be cool or janky if say, a hitbox that dealt no hitstun/knockback but applied the poison effect occured where the spores lingered?

 

[Sudai]

I think maybe 1% while in the spore area but not give an actual poison effect would be cool. Having it put the flower on them would call for a nerf to the damage of the actual move or in other areas.

 

[Yeerk]

Anybody talked matchups yet? I play against a Snake, and have so much trouble getting around Nikita and approaching at the same time due to Ivy's low speed. Granted I have little to no Brawl experience against him so I know little about ways to get at him. Doesn't seem like other threads have really considered Ivy a threat, either.

 

[JOE!]

Ivy > Snake

 

[Yeerk]

thanks, that was helpful. haha it's just not playing out that way sometimes. guess i suck.

 

[bubbaking]

Indeed. You don't really need to worry about approaching Snake. Razor Leaf goes through Nikita. If he tries to shoot it at you, you can just shoot him with a leaf and still have time to shield or avoid the missile. We honestly out-zone and out-camp him in this MU. If anything, he should worry about how he's going to approach us. Snake also has a LOT of trouble getting down from the air against us, so once we put him up there, take extreme advantage of it.

 

[JOE!]

It's like a solid 60:40 us lol

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I mean, if you ignore the fact that you can't do much of anything against grenades, maybe. His Jab and tilts deal with Razor Leaf more than adequately. Ivysaur's zoning tools outside of F-Air, B-Air, and the occasional Down-B are just horrible. Snake's Dash Attack does well against Ivysaur's immediate shorthop aerials, but now that Snake's obnoxious Brawl hitboxes are gone, the mid-range ground game is fairly safe, and Ivysaur gets more out of combo positions than Snake and can set them up better (IMO). However, Snake most certainly outcamps Ivysaur, or at least certainly competes there.

I don't think Snake is a very good character, either, though; he's missing a lot of the traits that rip Ivysaur a new one.

 

[bubbaking]

What about Razor Leaf ripping through grenades and Nikitas and setting up 'frame-locks' on Snake?

Edit: Also, Ivy's ftilt just rips through any CQC move Snake has to offer. At least, that's what I've found in my experience.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What about Razor Leaf ripping through grenades and Nikitas and setting up 'frame-locks' on Snake?

Those are things that don't actually happen.

He can pull a grenade, put it in his hands (like a normal item, rather than the hunch walk he does after he pulls it), and throw it when it's convenient, getting rid of the hitbox until right before it blows up. He can also use it to pressure you by shielding, rolling, or spotdodging while next to you. Ivysaur's Forward-B doesn't move quickly enough to threaten Snake into not pulling grenades without being put in a compromising position, herself. Snake shouldn't be using Nikita in neutral position to begin with.

If Snake's attack clanks with Razor Leaf, Ivysaur doesn't have frame advantage, so it's only good for covering his landing and edgeguarding as far as combo starting is concerned. B-Reversed grenades do a good job of preventing Ivysaur from doing much more than individual hits to his landings.

EDIT: Snake can bait F-Tilt and get a free Dash Attack or grab. It's useful, but not especially safe.

 

[G13_Flux]

ivysaur vs snake i can already see being one of those slow played out MUs. Both play extremely well defensively and patiently. i do think that if ivysaur is camping vs grenades, then ivysuar has a slight advantage. she is floaty enough to to jump and hover over them into mid range, where her fair can easily cover snakes approaches. ivysaurs tilts > snakes tilts as well, save for maybe utilt. as far as killing goes, i think ivysaur plays better in defensive situations than snake does. like if ivy is offstage or above snake. nikita does seem like it is very effective vs the tether, but im not sure what type of leverage ivy has over that situation. snake needs set ups that come from grabs, like his c4 sticky, to get reliable kills. his fsmash is amazing, but against a camper and spacer like ivy its use is detered. i do feel that ivysaur might have an easier time vs snake. snakes not helpless, but i think its harder for him to combat ivysaur in general and its harder for him to get kills.

 

[Yeerk]

I think I was having a bad playing day, being too impatient, haha. The Snake and I break about even, but we pretty much reflect that 60:40 matchup. All he does is camp, so I use it to charge/heal. Grenades are easy, but when Nikita comes out, that's when I usually start to approach with Razor Leaf to just threaten. It's also very useful in stopping his DACUS, which is pretty much his only approach that threatens me. The place Snake seems to put on the most pressure is when you're stuck on the ledge. Fair can only do so much to knock him back when he's peppering the ledge with explosives. Anyone found a reliable way? Maybe Nair?

 

[JOE!]

We probably should start a matchup thread...

 

[Yeerk]

I was going to today, but didn't know if there should be one more elaborate than "Talk about Ivy MU's here!"

How about "Ask Erika: The Everstone Ivysaur Matchup Thread".

 

[JOE!]

Was thinkin of how to set up the m-u thread and thought about cp stages and realized: rumble falls? Good cp for ivy or no?

 

[Sudai]

It depends on the MU. People we can out camp we want huge stages on but some characters we rely on mid-zone range more than out-projectiling in which case a smaller case would be great. Personally I think it's too early for a MU thread but don't let that stop y'all.

 

[JOE!]

I had that feeling as well, (my guide is barely started and knowing our own details first > matchups), but I was also looking at RF more for the platforms for when ivy has somebody above.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

yeah it's definitely too early for a MU thread imo. I think we should wait for more Ivy's to show up in tournaments, because theory craft of MUs and how they actually play out are often different.

 

[Sudai]

I was also looking at RF more for the platforms for when ivy has somebody above.

There's small stages with the same situation. Warioware for example. That's an extremely tiny stage though and would be used on a character that's more campy than Ivy. BF probably a better one to mention in this situation lol.

I think stage discussion is a good place to go but I don't feel like being the OP on any big post. lol

 

[JOE!]

I could always turn seeds of knowledge into an all purpose thread lol

 

[Jandlebars]

I could always turn seeds of knowledge into an all purpose thread lol

Not at all a bad idea, actually.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

No reason to. I think we're better off leaving things as they are. I might write a small guide after a bit, and this thread is fine for chiming in with stuff here and there in the meantime.

 

[JOE!]

Wait, no reason to consolidate her guides into one thread or..?

 

[Sudai]

Pretty sure that's what he means. I'd agree too. At least as far as discussion goes. The way I'd like to see things is one main guide with separate threads for things like MU/Stage discussion and frame data, ect. Main guide has a short synopsis of those things with links to their individual threads for more in depth review.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If you want to make your own guide, you're welcome to do that. I just don't see why a frame data thread should also be a Q&A (which is how I understood that line of reasoning). You're welcome to expand on things, and you're welcome to reduce the amount of threads here, but, just try to keep combined threads relevant to themselves.

 

[JOE!]

I was thinking more along the lines of what Sudai said with it being the "hub" thread that holds links to all the info and whatnot.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Should be okay, but, we should probably make a separate thread for that, outside of the frame data thread. Feel free to do that, change names, etc., and I'll play around with stickies afterward.

 

[bubbaking]

A 'thread/guide hub' sounds really nice, and I've actually seen one in pretty much every character-specific sub-forum inside the Brawl forums.

Late reply:

Those are things that don't actually happen.

He can pull a grenade, put it in his hands (like a normal item, rather than the hunch walk he does after he pulls it), and throw it when it's convenient, getting rid of the hitbox until right before it blows up. He can also use it to pressure you by shielding, rolling, or spotdodging while next to you. Ivysaur's Forward-B doesn't move quickly enough to threaten Snake into not pulling grenades without being put in a compromising position, herself. Snake shouldn't be using Nikita in neutral position to begin with.

I'm very aware of this, but in my experience, the Razor Leaf still clanks/deflects the thrown grenade, regardless of how he threw it. I was referring mostly to how the Leaf can stuff thrown grenades mid-toss, not while he's holding them.

Edit: And before anyone says that it's nigh impossible to react to Snake's grenade throw (item-toss version), I'm going to say that you don't have to. Just remember the grenade's explosion timing and throw out Razor Leaf around that time to counter any throws. 'Anti-'nade strategies' that revolve around the grenade's explosion timing have worked pretty well for me.

If Snake's attack clanks with Razor Leaf, Ivysaur doesn't have frame advantage, so it's only good for covering his landing and edgeguarding as far as combo starting is concerned. B-Reversed grenades do a good job of preventing Ivysaur from doing much more than individual hits to his landings.

Granted, I haven't tried this out, or if I have, I forget, but what happens when Snake clanks with the slower, multi-hitting tilt Razor Leaf? Does the whole Leaf go away, or does it continue to attack? If it's the latter, that would suggest the opposite of what you're saying.

Snake can bait F-Tilt and get a free Dash Attack or grab. It's useful, but not especially safe.

A lot of Snake's stuff can be baited and punished too, though... I'm not saying Ivy's ftilt is all-powerful or MU-deciding, but it out-prioritizes most of Snake's CQC moves, and it can even hit safely through grenades.

 

[Sudai]

The leaf goes away any time it clanks with anything. Things as weak as Mario's fireball are capable of clanking with it as well making it really useless against some characters including Snake.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm very aware of this, but in my experience, the Razor Leaf still clanks/deflects the thrown grenade, regardless of how he threw it. I was referring mostly to how the Leaf can stuff thrown grenades mid-toss, not while he's holding them.

Edit: And before anyone says that it's nigh impossible to react to Snake's grenade throw (item-toss version), I'm going to say that you don't have to. Just remember the grenade's explosion timing and throw out Razor Leaf around that time to counter any throws. 'Anti-'nade strategies' that revolve around the grenade's explosion timing have worked pretty well for me.

Granted, I haven't tried this out, or if I have, I forget, but what happens when Snake clanks with the slower, multi-hitting tilt Razor Leaf? Does the whole Leaf go away, or does it continue to attack? If it's the latter, that would suggest the opposite of what you're saying.

A lot of Snake's stuff can be baited and punished too, though... I'm not saying Ivy's ftilt is all-powerful or MU-deciding, but it out-prioritizes most of Snake's CQC moves, and it can even hit safely through grenades.

In order, because I don't want to break it up with quotes--

The "hard" throw should be too fast to react to (assuming it's in his hands, rather than just pulled out), and he can throw them in all sorts of weird ways through throwing them down on angles and aerial glide tosses. It's not useless in dealing with grenades, by any means, but it certainly isn't a driving force in outcamping Snake.

The leaf just goes away when it hits pretty much any hitbox. That's a big part of why I feel it's a generally bad move outside of edgeguarding.

The difference is that Ivysaur is only really good at controlling the space immediately around her (as far as camping is concerned), while Snake can adequately move away from C4 and throw around grenades wherever he wants. Many of Snake's projectiles aren't at a complete loss if the opponent hits them with an attack, whereas all of Ivysaur's projectiles are.

If you're trying to F-Tilt regularly for spacing, it leaves Ivysaur pretty vulnerable to shorthop approach stuff (though Snake is admittedly not that great with it). F-Tilt is one of her best moves, hands-down, but there's a lot of mix-ups you have to use to stay safe, and Snake's movement options and projectiles work pretty well against them.

 

[bubbaking]

Alright, well, I can mostly see what you're saying. About the first paragraph, regarding the grenades, that's why I put myself on the 'nade's timer. It's easier to 'react' to the pre-set explosion time than the actual throw (meaning you Leaf a little before that time, not immediately before). I can understand everything else you're saying, though. Still, an advantage we have on Snake is how easily we can harass him once we get him offstage or in the air. Our chances of outright gimping him are low, but our side aerials are perfect for continually hitting him and racking up his damage if he doesn't recover high, and if he does go high, we have Seed Bomb and our other awesome vertical coverage moves to make his descent extremely difficult. Just a simple toss offstage can be potentially devastating for Snake. Dtilt is also really good for covering attempts to go low for the ledge. I'd love to play this MU more from both sides, since I play both chars.

On the subject of CQC, I feel like a lot of people here don't realize how good Ivy's jab is. I mean, her ftilt is great, but IMO, her other extremely good tool in CQC is her crouch-cancelled jab. Old Melee Samus and Brawl Ike mains may understand what I'm talking about because these kinds of jabs were pretty much our only way of establishing good, constant pressure without big breaks in it. Both Samus' and Ike's jabs are GREAT because they come out on frame 3 and have a good enough range to be pretty much nonpunishable when spaced on shields. Well, surprise surprise, Ivy's jab also comes out on frame 3 and it seems to me that it has even more range than either Ike's or Samus' jab (I'm not 100% sure, though), and it definitely has more disjoint. Not only that, looking at the frame data, it seems that Ivy's jab IASA (frame 14) is also sooner than Samus' (frame 17). Well anyway, theory aside, I tried this out at the last fest I went to and it works really well at establishing shield pressure.

 

[OmegaMuffin]

Is it too late to talk about the body spike?? I know it's a meteor but body spike has a ring to it.

 

[Life]

Bodyteor also has a ring to it.

 

[bubbaking]

Can't we just call it........a body meteor? It's not actually a true spike, is it?

 

[Sudai]

Correct. We don't have any true spikes, just Meteors. DTilt can stage spike too but that's techable and we have better edge guard options generally.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, I like dtilt just because it covers the ledge and it pulls the opponent towards us to get sent back out by something.

 

[OmegaMuffin]

Idk man, I'm feeling body spike.

Anyway, I've been able to net a few surprise kills with that gem of a move. It's always fun to get off haha. Let's talk about how practical of a move it is. It trades with a lot of recoveries and in many characters' cases, that's not a good thing. I know Charizard's and Falco's Up-b beats it out but that's about it. I'm not sure if it beats out Lucario's though, I'll find out tonight. IASA frames, as far as I can tell, are before the moves hitbox disappears so that's always a fun time