Smash Wii U So yeah. I'm not impressed by Smash Wii U. What do you think?

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Fortress

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I want to like this, but it's not just the Melee community specifically that's complaining. Plenty of players from PM are having their own go at it (not that it's fair, but not that it's unfair to have an opinion, mind you), and I'm sure there are one or two of the SSB players out there who were let down for one reason or another.

But, yeah, too early to judge, and no matter how sluggish the game seems in a lot of respects, I'm sure there are going to be mechanics, exploits, and tricks to circumvent this.

I have my own complaints (lack of dash dancing, to be specific), but that doesn't make me an elitist.
 
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KayB

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To be honest, so much **** happened on screen at once during the invitational to the point where I'm not really sure what each character is capable of. I'm going to reserve my judgement until I actually see more tournament matches, because right now I can't tell if the things I saw actually worked/didn't work in game.
 
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I want to like this, but it's not just the Melee community specifically that's complaining. Plenty of players from PM are having their own go at it (not that it's fair, but not that it's unfair to have an opinion, mind you), and I'm sure there are one or two of the SSB players out there who were let down for one reason or another.

But, yeah, too early to judge, and no matter how sluggish the game seems in a lot of respects, I'm sure there are going to be mechanics, exploits, and tricks to circumvent this.
I'm not really sure what you're asking for though. If you're asking for a ton of advanced movement techniques, then you can probably move on now. Stuff like that isn't coming back. Not in Smash 4, not in Smash 5, probably not ever.

If you want to continue to support Smash in the future, you need to adjust your expectations. It is 100% fair to say Brawl has problems, and fair to say it wasn't polished like it should have been.

Smash 4 is not Brawl. If you hit someone, they can't airdodge away and into the ground; you have time for combos, and they pay for that. If you knock them off-stage, they have a significantly harder time getting back on due to the new ledge mechanics punishing players who camp there for too long, especially if you're willing to jump out after them. Run speeds are faster, gravity is higher. Projectiles are easily reflected with tilts. People die way faster, leading to potentially faster sets. There hasn't been a single character without a kill move at all (like Brawl Sonic or Peach).

Smash 4 seems to have a philosophy of actions being commitments but rewards being high. SF4 has a similar philosophy in design; jump-ins are dangerous but you get ridiculous damage from them. In Melee, everything is low risk high reward leading to players freely throwing out attacks to fish damage (hence "aggressive play"), and in Brawl, everything is high risk low reward. Middle ground.
 
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Fortress

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Brawl movement sucked, Seems smash 4 is the same. It seems like brawl 2.0 so far. Slow Paced Denfesive gameplay is not fun or hype to me i was hoping smash 4 would be good for people who like melee or p:m as well.
Made a post on doubles play specifically that I thought you might like. The movement in Smash 4 doesn't seem conducive to a singles environment, but everything else just seems to scream "four players", and makes me think doubles.
 

Doser

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Keep an open mind and give the game time before you completely dismiss it. If you Melee elitists want to play Melee forever then by all means do so, but at least wait until you've had a chance to sit down with the game and explore it before you condemn it. Otherwise, get ****ed.
More empty rhetoric that anyone who isn't excited is a melee elitist.
 

Fortress

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I'm not really sure what you're asking for though. If you're asking for a ton of advanced movement techniques, then you can probably move on now. Stuff like that isn't coming back. Not in Smash 4, not in Smash 5, probably not ever.
Not really asking for anything. There's only one technique that I could really ask for, dash dancing, but other than that I'm fine with everything else.

If you want to continue to support Smash in the future, you need to adjust your expectations. It is 100% fair to say Brawl has problems, and fair to say it wasn't polished like it should have been.
I don't need to adjust anything, I think I support Smash 4 just fine. I have a pretty objective take on it, I'd like to think:

[collapse=Objectivity and ****]
Project M player here, here's a random thought I had. Trying to have some objectivity here, and not jump on the "it's not fast enough, combos don't exist, mid-tier Fox" bandwagon.

High hitstun and Brawl-like knockback so far make for a sluggish (but not quite Brawl-sluggish) 1v1 kind of scenario, but most throws and attacks (barring Fox U-Smash among a couple of others) seem pretty meaty. Made me think of doubles. Launching speeds seem really slow when compared to PM and Melee (not much into Brawl, so I'm not sure how it compares in that regard), so I figured that with the combination of heavy hits, high knockback, but lower launching speeds, that bouncing enemies off of one another for your teammates would prove to be a better doubles setting than even in Melee, as if the game was geared for it? Smash 4 seems slowed down enough to the point where Doubles could be more-easily followed, not nearly as crazy and haphazard as it tends to sometimes feel. Obviously the game seems to be geared for four players, so, who knows. Maybe team battle will make a huge comeback with Smash 4?

tl;dr: Complaints about followups being too hard or plain 'gone' due to high KB, but slower launching speeds and slower overall pace might be neat for doubles play.

Now, take that any way you would like, but I feel like Doubles play could actually be played at a pace that's not break-neck fast ala Melee, but doesn't have the insane longevity of Brawl, either. So you get some doubles play that's slowed down to the point where it's easier to manage and watch, but doesn't wind up with characters lasting into 200% constantly.

Non-objective bit: I'm personally not too thrilled about not having a lot of the tech that I'm used to relying on, but the doubles gameplay that I imagine Smash 4 supporting might not call for it, which is just fine by me. It's not the 1v1 game I'd ever really play, but Hell, dubs might turn out to be a blast.

Srs. Any thoughts?
[/collapse]

I've got pretty open eyes towards the game for being a Melee elitist from PM.
 
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Renji64

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Made a post on doubles play specifically that I thought you might like. The movement in Smash 4 doesn't seem conducive to a singles environment, but everything else just seems to scream "four players", and makes me think doubles.
Yeah I have been thinking it may be great in doubles as well but it needs to be good in singles too.
 

Fortress

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My post is written with the "general you". :p
"If people want to support Smash, then they should adjust their expectations" is a great way to word that, in that case.

Yeah I have been thinking it may be great in doubles as well but it needs to be good in singles too.
See, that's the only thing I can think of people having to say if I ever get this doubles discussion rolling. That "yeah, that's cool and all, but that's not an excuse for why 1v1 is unplayable", which isn't true. It's playable, just not the flavor for a Melee player, or a PM one such as myself. But doubles? I'm going to take it to the grave, but everything seems so nice for it in Smash 4. I'm pumped up for some solid 2v2.
 
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Doser

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If you want to continue to support Smash in the future, you need to adjust your expectations.
I don't support any game just because it is in the same series that contains a game (or games) I enjoy. I will not lower the bar just because I need to support 'Smash' whatever that nebulous term actually means.

That being said, I would LOVE to be wrong. It would be great if Smash 4 turns out to be a game I enjoy playing.
 

Gazdakka Gizbang

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That's exactly how I see it. "Dash dancing gives a player who knows about it an advantage over one who doesn't at a tournament, so I'll remove it." ...okay? It's still going to come down to who knows the most after that... Besides, players who are competing in the first place are just going to pick up that technique that bested them, which is part of the fun and the experience. Some tech isn't quite ideal (like L-cancelling, a necessary evil), but some does a lot of good without much effort (ala dash dancing).

And, in the end, it's the competitors who the developers are going to hear about in the long-run when it comes to the serious, nitty-gritty stuff like "it would be better if X mechanic was changed in Y manner", not the "beat-the-game-and-move-on" kind of casual player who plays it for, like, a week. Not that that kind of player is bad, it's their money that lets us get the most out of our game.
I'd like to think that - since he now will have access to patching the game - Sakurai might get a new light on SSB4 if he sees that the vast majority of casual-esque players dump the game after a few weeks rather than playing for months, and so working with the hardcore to shape the game is a more profitable endeavour. I doubt it, though with the faltering sales of the Wii U this gives us an opportunity for our voices to be heard a little more, if only to tell them that updating the game doesn't merely end with its public release.

Of course, if Splatoon turns out to be the hottest thing since sliced bread, we might not get anything changed at all...
 

Fortress

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peachyhime from the invitational.
lol. I think PM will be fine. Kind of sort of really biased towards it since I'm a PM player, but I think all five titles (six, I guess, counting the 3DS version) can exist together. Smash 4 will make tons of money, people will play it, people will continue to play PM, and people will continue to play Melee and 64. Brawl is the only game I think will be impacted severely, since I imagine Brawl players moving towards S4 and staying.
 
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lol. I think PM will be fine. Kind of sort of really biased towards it since I'm a PM player, but I think all five titles (six, I guess, counting the 3DS version) can exist together. Smash 4 will make tons of money, people will play it, people will continue to play PM, and people will continue to play Melee and 64. Brawl is the only game I think will be impacted severely, since I imagine Brawl players moving towards S4 and staying.
I agree with your last statement here. Smash 4 seems to be a wishlist of stuff Brawl players wanted for the game. That's a good thing, too; a Brawl that works correctly could be a lot of fun in both competitive and casual settings.
 
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are you a smash bros fan or a melee fan?
did you want a new smash bros, or to play melee?
did you want to support smash bros, or melee?

this is a new game. treat it as a new game. don't hold it up to brawl or melee. look at the gameplay from people who practiced for one day. look at pewpewu's 65% combos. look at the strong DI. look at the presumably good balance. look at the fast-placed gameplay.

there is a reason the fgc thinks we're a joke and spoilers it's not just because "smash isn't a fighting game" it's bc the community is segregated, divided, whiny, entitled, and doesn't understand that they aren't the only people who play the game

we are never getting another melee. sakurai was very clear when he said smash is a party game first. so, do not look at brawl, ssb4, ssb5, ssb6, etc. and look for melee in them. pull out your melee disk and play that. pull out your wii and play project m. leave this thread. leave the ssb4 section. come back after u calm down. get excited over the new game with new mechanics and game!!!cube!!!!controllers!!!! and boobs!!!! and goodish online mode!!!! a new uncharted ground! we can develop a whole new metagame! we have fast gameplay! some combos but not 0-deaths! it's still going to be a better game than brawl.

and for those of you brawl players that have a problem with ssb4...and play brawl... i don't understand please seek professional assistance
 
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...so we can all coexist with each other peacefully?
I hope so. I hope naysayers give the game a chance at release, too.

There's a lot no one is considering. Maybe combos aren't as extensive as Melee's, but it will also be really difficult to escape someone's momentum in Smash 4 due to landing itself being really unsafe. There's no more air dodging into the ground, aerials that used to protect your landing in Brawl also seem worse. If you're knocked into the air you have to pick your landing option really carefully, otherwise someone can just wait for you to land and hit you again.

It's different from Melee and Brawl but I think it will have its own offensive (and aggressive) flow. Seriously.
 

Fortress

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...so we can all coexist with each other peacefully?
No, he disagreed with everything else I said. Meaning I can't like you.

But, seriously, Smash 4 is going to have its own unique flow and flavor that makes it its own. Like Brawl had, but, fixed. I mean, when you think about it, Smash 64 is a fuuuuuuuuucking jankfest that feels nothing like the Smash I'm used to.
 
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Mota

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I wasn't too impressed either. lost some hype watching the 4 FFA. It got boring quick, here's hoping 1v1s are more entertaining.
I'm disappointed that it the game isn't faster, comboey, or seemingly technical. People saying you can't dash dance, no follow up on grabs etc. From first impressions, the game seems very much like a polished Brawl, which isn't to say I didn't like Brawl. Was hoping for a deeper more technical game, one that wouldn't die after the next smash comes along.

The new comer characters are all pretty lackluster. Wasn't excited for Villager, Wii fit trainer, or pacman. Just seemed like there were better more hyped popular choices. People want to play as characters they're fans of. When's the last time anyone played pacman?

I am glad that Smash4 is faster though. ZSS seems to move and fall quicker, correct me if I'm wrong.
I'll still be getting the 3DS version, and I did love Brawl, and if this really is Brawl 2.0 I can live with that.
 

LiteralGrill

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peachyhime from the invitational.
That is really sad to see. They gave her such an honor to come play and she just said the game has no hope? Geez. I'm not saying that people shouldn't express if they didn't like things who played at the invitational but that kind of pessimism isn't necessary either, hows about constructive criticism?
 

SSBBDaisy

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Hi, I'm a Brawl player and I was ranked 6th on the Florida Brawl PR in 2013.

As someone who loves and plays brawl both competitively and casually from watching game play and watching the tournament closely I can't say too much but this honestly is looking worse than brawl from a competitive aspect. There are a lot of things like A lot less auto canceling moves, hit stun is still the same, etc.

If you beg to differ, go watch game play and actually pay close attention to individual characters and their attacks, especially their aerials, and how they land after short hop aerials. There are many things that were even taken away from brawl that I see lacking in this DEMO.

However, I'm going to the Best Buy Smash-fest event to play smash 4 as despite what I've seen I just want to play it and give it a chance. My opinion may change.

PS: Gotta state the obvious for all the dumb people out there. This is definitely not looking like Melee. Sakurai is either trying to make the game super casual or it's not far enough in development. Alas, if you think about how he said the 3ds version is near completion (and only needs Debugging) and you watch 3ds gameplay it is the same as Wii U and it does worry me.


But I will still move on to Smash bros U and Smash bros 3ds because its the new thing and Rosalina&Luma are in it XD.
 
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That is really sad to see. They gave her such an honor to come play and she just said the game has no hope? Geez. I'm not saying that people shouldn't express if they didn't like things who played at the invitational but that kind of pessimism isn't necessary either, hows about constructive criticism?
Nope, I can't play this game exactly like Melee on day 1 so it obviously will suck for the next 5-10 years.
 

Gazdakka Gizbang

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lol. I think PM will be fine. Kind of sort of really biased towards it since I'm a PM player, but I think all five titles (six, I guess, counting the 3DS version) can exist together. Smash 4 will make tons of money, people will play it, people will continue to play PM, and people will continue to play Melee and 64. Brawl is the only game I think will be impacted severely, since I imagine Brawl players moving towards S4 and staying.
It will be fine. It's on an old system they can't really regulate, it lends popularity to their title, and there are already hundreds, even thousands of people who have downloaded it. If they took it down now, it would just keep being re-circulated by smaller groups of people; the only thing they could do is demolish its public tournament popularity, and I doubt they'll do anything like that.

Optimistically, the only thing a shutdown would do is result in the Project M team making another game with the same mechanics but no Nintendo characters. I don't think it's in their interests.
 
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Renji64

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That is really sad to see. They gave her such an honor to come play and she just said the game has no hope? Geez. I'm not saying that people shouldn't express if they didn't like things who played at the invitational but that kind of pessimism isn't necessary either, hows about constructive criticism?
Well I saw tweet from prog said they are listening and taking feedback there is hope. I rather people be honest and open about how smash 4 really is.
 

Reoyoshi8

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No, he disagreed with everything else I said. Meaning I can't like you.

But, seriously, Smash 4 is going to have its own unique flow and flavor that makes it its own. Like Brawl had, but, fixed. I mean, when you think about it, Smash 64 is a fuuuuuuuuucking jankfest that feels nothing like the Smash I'm used to.
Yo man, I can take you guys critiquing an unfinished game.
But just taking a dump on SSB64 is uncalled for.
 

LiteralGrill

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Well I saw tweet from prog said they are listening and taking feedback there is hope. I rather people be honest and open about how smash 4 really is.
See, they're taking feedback, but saying the game has no hope wont help them. You need to talk about what the game needs, how to fix the game, and things like that. What she said was in no way helpful at all honestly.
 

Renji64

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See, they're taking feedback, but saying the game has no hope wont help them. You need to talk about what the game needs, how to fix the game, and things like that. What she said was in no way helpful at all honestly.
I'm sure if it was possible she gave feedback. I'll try to stay netural until release.
 

Wyoming

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peachyhime from the invitational.
After playing ten minutes of a beta game that nobody had prior experience in, with weird (but understandable) rules and most of the matches being FFA?

Had this been Melee and it was at E3 2000 it wouldn't look nowhere near as in-depth as the final product, nor would it have played the same. Throwing the towel this early is simply idiotic and won't help the game at all.
 

SSBBDaisy

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The only thing that worries me is that Sakurai said that he only needs debugging to be done on the 3ds version then it's ready to release.

Fine, but I hope wii u version will not have the same movement, mechanics, etc. as the 3ds version will.
 

Fortress

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See, they're taking feedback, but saying the game has no hope wont help them. You need to talk about what the game needs, how to fix the game, and things like that. What she said was in no way helpful at all honestly.
To be fair, most anything that could be suggested would get shot down by the main man himself.
 
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My thoughts on this whole "Brawl, but fixed":

Within the last week, I downloaded Brawl+ to try out, just so I could pull from multiple different Smashes. Being a pretty avid PM player and having played Brawl for quite some time when it first came out, Brawl+, honestly, is so far the greatest indication we have of how Smash 4 will play.

The few hours that I played against CPUs I was experiencing a lot of the same things I saw yesterday at the invitational. I found it hard to follow up on things to make combos. But it goes to show that it takes time to learn a metagame, just as we saw last night. There are numerous high level brawl+ videos out there (will find one soon and update this post), and obviously those players took time to learn brawl+ and learn what works and what doesn't.

The same has been said by others, but Smash 4 needs time from the community to be crafted into its own style of competitiveness. Just like all of the Smash games have needed. Even though we had top level players, you can't expect groundbreaking competitive revelations from a few hours of practice. It doesn't work that way.

The game already looks faster paced. That alone makes me excited. People will argue that the grand finals was too campy, but that doesn't reflect all of Smash 4. Zss vs Kirby seems like a very slow matchup. That's not necessarily the case with every other matchup.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that we should look at Brawl+ and its competitive side for an indication of how smash 4 will evolve. There are some obvious differences I noticed, namely throws in Smash 4 don't seem to be good for followups. But again, that will need to be an adaptation of playstyle from the competitive side. I think the only reason Brawl+ did not advance further was because Project M was better supported by the programmers and developers of these mods. So not all hope is lost for a robust, intense competitive scene. It won't be Melee, but nothing ever will be again and that's fine. Smash 4 won't be brawl 2.0. It will be its own entity that I think we need to give a chance
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Well I think there has been a miscommunication in what we mean by a 0-death combo. I am certainly NOT talking about something like the IC's freeze glitch, rather I am talking about something more akin to (this is ficticious of course) fox being able to up-air chain a character from 0-death after an up throw. The key difference here is that the person being combo'd can actually interact while being in hitstun by way of DI'ing both the throw and the subsequent upairs. We have seen from the top players that the fox player must hit with the last part of the upair or risk their opponent getting out of the combo. This is difficult enough for the fox player that they are left with either hoping their opponent does not SDI, or 'reading' their SDI and placing themselves so that the second hitbox will still hit (see mango's and m2k's upairs against hbox). In effect we have a zero to death but only in the most extreme cases should someone ever place their controller in their lap and wait it out.
This I am ok with.

If the opponent just gets read or keeps being outplayed, like when Trela took Ally from 0 - death in 15 seconds at Whobo with Lucario on a three stock comback. He did it by outplaying Ally at the end and getting the right reads.

The one here with uair chains, that's ok there is interaction and something he can do.

When I say 0-death I'm talking about stuff like Wobbling or D3's standing infinites.
 

Fortress

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The game already looks faster paced. That alone makes me excited. People will argue that the grand finals was too campy, but that doesn't reflect all of Smash 4. Zss vs Kirby seems like a very slow matchup. That's not necessarily the case with every other matchup.
As much as I think H-Box was absolutely robbed, I agree that the match went the way it did simply because ZSS had the tools to deal with Kriby's movement options. Her new boots let her move around in a way that can make her hard to hit, or put at risk to approach. Just another interesting bit of matchup knowledge that barely scratches the surface of that one matchup based on one match. There's a lot to discover yet.
 

Niala

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I agree with your last statement here. Smash 4 seems to be a wishlist of stuff Brawl players wanted for the game. That's a good thing, too; a Brawl that works correctly could be a lot of fun in both competitive and casual settings.
As a Brawl player, I can safely say this isn't what I was hoping for at all. Now, here's the thing:

I HATE Melee.

That game is trash. The controls are piss poor to anybody who hasn't spent countless hours learning to manipulate them in their favour, and if the mark of a good game is having reliable and comfortable controls only after learning endless tricks to control the controls better, then I'm proud to say I'm a bad gamer.

Even trash cans sometimes contain a few nice things, though.

So when people were saying, "this game looks a lot like an in between of Melee and Brawl!" of course I was excited. Brawl was fun, comfortable controls and a competitive 1v1 I enjoyed. But, it was a bit slow. And it was hard for me to punish people, or combo them, like you could do in Melee. So there you go, a mix between the two that I was expecting and would enjoy.

"This game looks a lot like an in between of Melee and Brawl!" is the worst thing people could have ever said about this game. It allows everybody to take whatever aspects of each game they liked more, and mash them together into some sort of ideal game. When the product inevitably doesn't meet your desires, you come out disappointed and defeated.

Perhaps I'm in the minority of Brawl players, but what I had envisioned was nothing like what the product appears to be, and I am disappointed. Now, will that all change when I get to play the game? Most likely. Watching something played and actually playing it are drastically different, and perhaps I'll enjoy the game more than I suspect I will. But right now, it's three months where a shiny, new game of the series has somewhat dulled.
 

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A lot of people are making a lot of negative conclusions way too quickly. This game is definitely going to be different. Expecting it behave completely like the previous games is just asinine.

The dashing nerf makes me think we're going to see the ground game behaving a LOT like Tekken.
 

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Lots of great feedback. Yes, it won't be melee. Who cares? Your game of choice will always be there with the community to support it. I for one feel overjoyed there's a new entry with a sexy presentation of gameplay. Let's see what happens with the best buy demos today and go from there.

I do fear they won't change much. And like people were saying before - smash is designed as a party game first and foremost - there is balance in 4 player chaos, not so much so in 1v1. Whatever happens, we will make the most of it and if it's destined to be successful it will be. Otherwise, life goes on.
 

Ulevo

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Keep an open mind and give the game time before you completely dismiss it. If you Melee elitists want to play Melee forever then by all means do so, but at least wait until you've had a chance to sit down with the game and explore it before you condemn it. Otherwise, get ****ed.
Nope, I can't play this game exactly like Melee on day 1 so it obviously will suck for the next 5-10 years.
So people who advocate Melee and dislike Brawl are Melee elitists. What do we call people like you?

Smash 4 seems to have a philosophy of actions being commitments but rewards being high. SF4 has a similar philosophy in design; jump-ins are dangerous but you get ridiculous damage from them. In Melee, everything is low risk high reward leading to players freely throwing out attacks to fish damage (hence "aggressive play"), and in Brawl, everything is high risk low reward. Middle ground.
This is wrong because the moment you commit to an incorrect decision in Melee, it can mean your stock. The movement options in Melee work on a two way street. They make you more evasive, but they exponentially increase your ability to punish mistakes. Melee is high risk high reward. That's what makes it exciting to play, and to watch.

TSON, the problem I have with your viewpoint here is that you essentially invalidate the value, and the necessity, for criticism and scrutiny in game design. There is nothing to be gained by just accepting what is given to you and calling it a day. As a playerbase, regardless of how small, niche, or irrelevant specific parties might label us to be, we matter. We have opinions, and largely with legitimate foundations, especially considering we come from a sector in the community that knows more about the specifics. For the people who want to play Melee, they'll play Melee. And for people who want to play Brawl, they'll do that too. That's not the issue at heart here.

That is really sad to see. They gave her such an honor to come play and she just said the game has no hope? Geez. I'm not saying that people shouldn't express if they didn't like things who played at the invitational but that kind of pessimism isn't necessary either, hows about constructive criticism?
If you don't have anything constructive to say, how do provide constructive criticism. You make it seem like there is absolutely no way a player can play this game and be genuinely disappointed with its development, and where its going, for legitimate reasons.


After playing ten minutes of a beta game that nobody had prior experience in, with weird (but understandable) rules and most of the matches being FFA?

Had this been Melee and it was at E3 2000 it wouldn't look nowhere near as in-depth as the final product, nor would it have played the same. Throwing the towel this early is simply idiotic and won't help the game at all.
This argument does not work anymore. I keep seeing it, and it's pretty antiquated, honestly.

We didn't know a damn thing in early Melee because 64 had next to no tournament scene, no large following, no accumulative wealth of previous knowledge, no pro players to turn to for opinions. We were starting from nothing, from bare scratch. We're not doing that now. We have the knowledge, we have the community, we have the experienced veteran players with the good mechanics and tech skill. We know what's good Smash design, and what is less preferable.

It isn't inconceivable to believe that we might actually be able to make a few well rounded assessments from the footage we've been given at the invitational tournament, especially considering that Melee was a very deep game, and its sequels have a lot less to learn.

Hi, I'm a Brawl player and I was ranked 6th on the Florida Brawl PR in 2013.

As someone who loves and plays brawl both competitively and casually from watching game play and watching the tournament closely I can't say too much but this honestly is looking worse than brawl from a competitive aspect. There are a lot of things like A lot less auto canceling moves, hit stun is still the same, etc.

If you beg to differ, go watch game play and actually pay close attention to individual characters and their attacks, especially their aerials, and how they land after short hop aerials. There are many things that were even taken away from brawl that I see lacking in this DEMO.

However, I'm going to the Best Buy Smash-fest event to play smash 4 as despite what I've seen I just want to play it and give it a chance. My opinion may change.

PS: Gotta state the obvious for all the dumb people out there. This is definitely not looking like Melee. Sakurai is either trying to make the game super casual or it's not far enough in development. Alas, if you think about how he said the 3ds version is near completion (and only needs Debugging) and you watch 3ds gameplay it is the same as Wii U and it does worry me.


But I will still move on to Smash bros U and Smash bros 3ds because its the new thing and Rosalina&Luma are in it XD.
This is what I really wanted to reply to.

I think the irony of this entire thing is that while a lot of players accuse Melee for being a game centred around glitches and exploits, the contrary was quite true in regards to Brawls life as a competitive title. A large part of what gave Brawl any depth was the fact that it was littered with glitches, game oversights, poor design, and problems that led to a layer of depth and learning that was required in order to remain competitive. DACUS, grab release mechanics, momentum cancelling aerial attacks, Shuttle Loop refreshes, infinites. These things were a part of the competitive learning experience, regardless if their inclusions were healthy for the game overall, or not.

I suspect that not only are most of these things cleansed from Smash Wii U, but that the game largely overall will be quite bug free. Or at least comparatively speaking. This is funny because while this would normally be a good thing in the context of proper game design, it actually detracts from the competitive learning curve and what made Brawl interesting for the players who enjoyed it. On top of all this, they're removing mechanics that Brawl had organically, like SDI.

My impression of Smash Wii U is that it is literally Brawl 2. It is a pure successor to Brawl in that regard. However, it is seemingly going to be a watered down version of Brawl, for whatever its worth.

This is actually wonderful for the casual players because I honestly believe Brawl was kinda a piece of trash casually speaking. I mean, didn't stop people from enjoying it, and people feel differently than I do. But I think this is a huge step up. And for the people who played Brawl competitively I'm sure they'll enjoy this to varying degrees. For the people who appreciated deeper gameplay though, I think they're not going to find satisfaction with this.
 
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