Smash Wii U So yeah. I'm not impressed by Smash Wii U. What do you think?

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

I think that everyone, whether they're excited for the game or not, should just take a little chill pill for a sec and relaaaaaaaax. There's a lot of aggressive posting on this board and a lot of misunderstanding of what other people are saying on all sides.

While I am worried that the gameplay seems to reward defensive play and that there doesn't appear to be viable approach/movement options, I am also aware that our current understanding of the game is based on first impressions, and I certainly won't dismiss the game before even playing it. Moreover, I am optimistic that Nintendo is listening to feedback and will deliver us a solid Smash title.

I think we can have an intelligent conversation about the game without some people being overwhelmingly negative about early gameplay and other people throwing out accusations of melee purism for discussing potentially-questionable gameplay mechanics.

We are discussing a video game. Everything's gonna be okay. We can be respectful, and there's no need for us to be so radical in our opinions and antagonistic to each other.

I'm just gonna repost this...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I fail to see how this would impact people who want to enjoy the game more casually. Surely these people are not in the same set as those that would be 'zero to death'ing their opponents. If they never learn how to wavedash, that's also fine given that they would be playing against people roughly in their own skill level.

L-canceling, wavedashing, jump canceling etc. do not alter the game for people who are not inclined to play this game competitively.

Being 0 - death'd is never fun in a fighting game for the receiver, or worse. It's not satisfying game play and when readily available dumbs down the game incredibly.

L-Canceling is bad design, there is no choice in it, you will always do it because no one wants more lag. Tech barrier is all it is and ultimately doesn't do anything for strategic gameplay.

Wavedashing is fine, but again this can be changed to add more speed to gameplay via just movement. Which it seems they at least tried to speed everyone up.

Dunno about jump canceling.

Point is, I'm ok if jump canceling or wavedashing came back but again removing them isn't a bad thing in itself if there is a reason or compensation.

this game at the very least is trying to find a better middle ground, which I am all for.

Condescending? I'm simply stating how the melee community is in a more extreme and sarcastic way.

It's still just you throwing bait out there and people will get pissed at it. You made a post that in turn will just serve to make people mad, not really helping out discussion.

There is a more tactful way to word what you wanted like,

"I think the Melee community needs to not hate this game just cause it's not Melee, I dunno why they act this way" vs what you posted.

Think about what you post before you post, one isn''t antagonistic and helps discussion, the other just serves to make people mad.

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

Condescending? I'm simply stating how the melee community is in a more extreme and sarcastic way.

I think he means your "sarcasm" explanation post sounded condescending, though I thought you were trying to be humorous. Might be because I wasn't the recipient.

 

[nessokman]

I think he means your "sarcasm" explanation post sounded condescending, though I thought you were trying to be humorous. Might be because I wasn't the recipient.

I am going for humor. I can't take these people seriously when they start talking technically.

 

[hariooo]

This isn't Marvel. There is no 0-death that isn't determinant on the input of the victim, so to speak. And the fact that you don't enjoy a harsher punish game is really just an opinion and clearly the overwhelming number of people who stuck with Melee don't agree with your statement at all.

L-canceling has been debated to death but let me just say that if you took it out my mediocre Falco would suddenly become a very good Falco because I would almost never get shield grabbed again. L-canceling moderates the dominance of spacies in the meta by a lot.

Wavedashing isn't about speed; it's about flexibility. It provides Falco with a platform combo game, Ganondorf the only reason he's not completely ****-tier, and just about every character an option to be more creative. Do I think it's replaceable? Maybe yes maybe no. Do I think it's replaceable with characters running faster? Lol hell no.

 

[Doser]

Yes, they do. The two types of player will be in even closer quarters because of the online and attention competitive play is getting.

I was under the impression there would be some sort of ranking system. So sure, there could be some friction between these two at the beginning, but it would largely be solved after a bit of time.

I don't believe there would be many people that are at the same time driven to climb in rankings yet be entirely opposed to learning and dealing with advanced techniques.

Being 0 - death'd is never fun in a fighting game for the receiver, or worse. It's not satisfying game play and when readily available dumbs down the game incredibly.

I don't think 'fun for the receiver' is a good litmus test for game design, given that no one likes to be combo'd period when their goal is to win. We have death combos in melee, but as we are all aware they are not common as they are both difficult to execute outright and also are not static given the opponent uses DI. As far as dumbing down the game goes, I don't think that is true a priori. Could we not apply this to any combo of length greater than 1? It would seem that nearly any amount of time where the player is out of control is less enjoyable, but of course we do want combos.

L-Canceling is bad design, there is no choice in it, you will always do it because no one wants more lag. Tech barrier is all it is and ultimately doesn't do anything for strategic gameplay.

L-canceling presents an execution barrier to using aerials rather than other approaches. This memetic chanting of execution barriers being evil hasn't really resonated with me. I view it similarly to other button inputs to do an attack. There's even the case where you have to vary the timing depending on where you hit the shield, and the opponent has some say in this with the shield tilting mechanic. The idea that execution should have no place in a fighting game is a bit bothersome to me as I view games as testing both mechanical and mental skill sets.

Wavedashing is fine, but again this can be changed to add more speed to gameplay via just movement. Which it seems they at least tried to speed everyone up.

The problem, at least my problem, is that the speed up is not a sufficient replacement for the movement mechancis that have been removed.

I would be ok with wavedashing being removed in favor of some other tactic that elicits similar results in terms of depth of the movement in Smash 4. But unfortunately it doesn't appear that such a technique exists, so we really don't have a suitable replacement for these techniques. Instead we have a gimped dash, and increased landing lag, and no way of interacting with platforms as fluidly as Melee or PM.

Point is, I'm ok if jump canceling or wavedashing came back but again removing them isn't a bad thing in itself if there is a reason or compensation.

I don't disagree with the statement, but I would add that so far I am not seeing a reason nor any compensation, and hence my disappointment.

 

[nessokman]

It's still just you throwing bait out there and people will get pissed at it. You made a post that in turn will just serve to make people mad, not really helping out discussion.

There is a more tasteful way to word what you wanted like,

"I think the Melee community needs to not hate this game just cause it's not Melee, I dunno why they act this way" vs what you posted.

Think about what you post before you post, one isn''t antagonistic and helps discussion, the other just serves to make people mad.

This board isn't any fun if I can't be sarcastic about melee fanatics. I find humor in turning my filter and enjoy the beauty of satire.

 

[adlp]

I originally felt it was poor showmanship, but I am actually glad that Zero camped out Hbox on stage in front of 165,000+ people because at least I KNOW Sakurai saw it.

i dont want this post overlooked

this is really good, sakurai saw that his game wasnt fast enough

 

[CRASHiC]

Your entire post sounds like whining about game mechanics you aren't very good at.

I guess if you pretend that I'm bad at some game you won't have to make an argument that requires any thinking though.

I have made an argument actually. I have stated that grabs in MvC series are often reguarded as the worst elements of the game, how frequently game changing option selects in tandum with the 0 to deaths have lead to very unhealthy game design.

A large part of the power of Magneto in MvC2 and Zero and Morgana in MvC3 lies in their ability to use these option selects in a way that shuts a vast majority of the cast out of viability. The same can be said of Shiek's grab in brawl.

You however with this post aren't responding to any of my points. I will not respond to you in the future if you continue to act this way. I don't waste my time talking to the orally impotent.

I fail to see how this would impact people who want to enjoy the game more casually. Surely these people are not in the same set as those that would be 'zero to death'ing their opponents. If they never learn how to wavedash, that's also fine given that they would be playing against people roughly in their own skill level.

That's irrelevant. We are talking about its impact on the competative community. Can you explain how 0 to deaths off one of the safest options in the game is healthy for the game?

Compare the risk reward that exist on Jigglypuff's Rest compared to Shiek's throw against numerous cast members. A missed or shielded rest can be responded to with a death or near death respond with ease, while Shiek's grab can only be responded to with moderate punishment at best. There's a huge disconnect going on here that needed to be rectified. The change they made moves us in that direction.

 

[nessokman]

i dont want this post overlooked

this is really good, sakurai saw that his game wasnt fast enough

Or he thought:"that must be that guy's play style, good to see the smash community all coming up with their own strategies"

 

[adlp]

Or he thought:"that must be that guy's play style, good to see the smash community all coming up with their own strategies"

well DAMMIT i hope you're WRONG

 

[chipz]

I wonder if people didn't buy Mario Kart 8 because it doesn't have snaking

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

Or he thought:"that must be that guy's play style, good to see the smash community all coming up with their own strategies"

Or maybe he thought, "BUFF-UH KIR-UBY!!!"

 

[rawrimamonster]

I wonder if people didn't buy Mario Kart 8 because it doesn't have snaking

There are people that didn't buy 7 because of that.

 

[Saito]

Or he thought:"that must be that guy's play style, good to see the smash community all coming up with their own strategies"

And think.

Now we've got about 1/10th of that 165,000 viewerbase that's going to be using those exact same tactics online because they are proven to be effective.

I wonder if people didn't buy Mario Kart 8 because it doesn't have snaking

You remove advanced stuff, and there is always someone that won't buy the game because of that.

 

[Doser]

That's irrelevant.

It wasn't irrelevant at all, if you'd read the post I quoted I think you'll see where I was coming from when discussing the casual player's reaction to such a combo.

Can you explain how 0 to deaths off one of the safest options in the game is healthy for the game?

Well of course 0 to deaths off of a grab are not inherently healthy for a game. But I don't believe they are inherently bad for a game either. It is all down to what comes before and after the grab that determines its effect on the game.
If this kind of combo were on a character that had guaranteed grab setups on most of the cast, this combo worked regardless of stage, and there was no change in the inputs due to the opponent's input etc. then of course there would be issues. But when it comes to smash many of these variables are not guaranteed or are most likely obviously not true. If the execution barrier/reaction time required is so high that it is often a better choice to do a safer move, the game is hardly effected at all. The mere existence of such a combo does not imply an unhealthy metagame at all.

What I'm really arguing is that the correct position to be on these combos is to be agnostic until we have a more full view on it.

Compare the risk reward that exist on Jigglypuff's Rest compared to Shiek's throw against numerous cast members. A missed or shielded rest can be responded to with a death or near death respond with ease, while Shiek's grab can only be responded to with moderate punishment at best. There's a huge disconnect going on here that needed to be rectified. The change they made moves us in that direction.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Sheik is a balanced character relative to the entirety of the cast. But in reality the metagame revolves around only about 8 or so characters (and of course this is not due entirely to Sheik), and within this context her grab is not game breaking at all. Now sure you may say the lack of character diversity is bad, but at the same time Melee has been going on for many years despite this.

(Jiggs can kill Sheik on a wiffed grab by resting, I just found this amusing given your two examples)

 

[nessokman]

I wonder if people didn't buy Mario Kart 8 because it doesn't have snaking

No, it was obviously luigi's death stare that kept them from buying

 

[LancerStaff]

Or he thought:"that must be that guy's play style, good to see the smash community all coming up with their own strategies"

Samus is top tier in the dev team... Yep, Sakurai approves camping. Grab the marshmallows!

 

[hariooo]

Speaking of oral competence let's talk about "Morgana" in MvC 3 and/or Shiek's OP grab in "Brawl".

Also Melee may have many things people don't like but what it doesn't have is an unhealthy metagame, unless it's suggested that a 12-year old game whose community has never been bigger is "unhealthy". Then again that grabbing is one of the safest options in Melee is a pretty unique opinion. I don't know anyone who would agree with that.

 

[CRASHiC]

i dont want this post overlooked

this is really good, sakurai saw that his game wasnt fast enough

A game's speed has nothing to do with a characters ability to approach another.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQkaI0_f7ek
And even then, the smash community needs to remove its bias against defensive play being somehow noncompetitive.
Offensive play is not anymore skilled, it relies on a different set of abilities and there are numerous overlaps. Keepaway, poke, and stall (not to be confused with game breaking stall) can be found in nearly every genre and has always been a well respected path to victory except for in this community. Be it MOBAs, fighting games, RTS, or FPS only causal communities regard defensive play as wholly undesirable. It is when a game favors one heavily that this becomes an issue.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't think 'fun for the receiver' is a good litmus test for game design, given that no one likes to be combo'd period when their goal is to win. We have death combos in melee, but as we are all aware they are not common as they are both difficult to execute outright and also are not static given the opponent uses DI. As far as dumbing down the game goes, I don't think that is true a priori. Could we not apply this to any combo of length greater than 1? It would seem that nearly any amount of time where the player is out of control is less enjoyable, but of course we do want combos.





L-canceling presents an execution barrier to using aerials rather than other approaches. This memetic chanting of execution barriers being evil hasn't really resonated with me. I view it similarly to other button inputs to do an attack. There's even the case where you have to vary the timing depending on where you hit the shield, and the opponent has some say in this with the shield tilting mechanic. The idea that execution should have no place in a fighting game is a bit bothersome to me as I view games as testing both mechanical and mental skill sets.



The problem, at least my problem, is that the speed up is not a sufficient replacement for the movement mechancis that have been removed.

I would be ok with wavedashing being removed in favor of some other tactic that elicits similar results in terms of depth of the movement in Smash 4. But unfortunately it doesn't appear that such a technique exists, so we really don't have a suitable replacement for these techniques. Instead we have a gimped dash, and increased landing lag, and no way of interacting with platforms as fluidly as Melee or PM.


I don't disagree with the statement, but I would add that so far I am not seeing a reason nor any compensation, and hence my disappointment.

1) You should be caring how unfun it is when how fun the game is does matter for a community. 0-deaths are not the same as combos, combos are punishment and are ways to enhance gameplay while adding choice. 0-deaths don't do this, you **** up and you die. It's not fun to basically put your control down and wait til they finish their 0-death. Combos might be slightly unsatisfying being stuck in, but at least people can enjoy it as part of gameplay and how it progresses, 0 - deaths don't do it, it removes gameplay completely and feels the worst of any gameplay experience for players.

2) This is the only argument I really value for keeping it, I understand it but I don't like it. It's just an execution barrier just to be one. It doesn't need to be there, combos in fighting games even when bread and butter still offer choices of following with one move or another. L-Cancelling never does it, it's always the answer you will pick because you must do it. Just cut all landing lag in half and remove L-cancelling, there is no difference in gameplay. That is why I don't like it at all.

3) Wavedashing is fast movement to get you from A-B, you can do moves out of this as well which leads to waveshining and Fox making me cry when I play Peach. Still I''m not entire sure how true oor not some of the claims people are making since I haven't played it and ppeople say things that I question how true or not. Dash thing is consistent but the landing lag I hear auto cancelling is a big thing for some characters, it's probably around that. On sheer movement, people are sped up.

4) Thats fine, tbh I'm always disappointed in PM for readding L-canceling but w/e, personal tastes and all. I'm not sure what is true or not for movement, but it does look better than Brawls which is a plus for me personally.

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

I was under the impression there would be some sort of ranking system. So sure, there could be some friction between these two at the beginning, but it would largely be solved after a bit of time.

I don't believe there would be many people that are at the same time driven to climb in rankings yet be entirely opposed to learning and dealing with advanced techniques.

Maybe I'm just very unlucky, but I don't find ranking systems in fighting games to be very reliable. I find myself starting up some of these games and I'm lumped in with people who clearly don't belong on the lower end of the spectrum.

This is assumably his main concern: That people will pick it up, get 4-stock'd in a few minutes and not think, "GOD I'm having so much fun already!" I can't say I agree with that philosophy, but an efficient ranking system could definitely help accommodate a more competitive game.

 

[LancerStaff]

I was under the impression there would be some sort of ranking system. So sure, there could be some friction between these two at the beginning, but it would largely be solved after a bit of time.

I don't believe there would be many people that are at the same time driven to climb in rankings yet be entirely opposed to learning and dealing with advanced techniques.

I can almost guarantee that the ranking system won't be anything significant. It's invisible (since Sakurai hates rankings and all) and most likely just to prevent outright noobs and pros getting paired often. I'm sure people won't even notice such a thing exists.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

I don't waste my time talking to the orally impotent.

Speaking of oral competence

This is making me feel very uncomfortable.

I don't think I'm ready for the next step in our relationship. I think it's time I told you the truth:

I have no oral competence; I am orally impotent.

 

[Doser]

1) You should be caring how unfun it is when how fun the game is does matter for a community. 0-deaths are not the same as combos, combos are punishment and are ways to enhance gameplay while adding choice. 0-deaths don't do this, you **** up and you die. It's not fun to basically put your control down and wait til they finish their 0-death. Combos might be slightly unsatisfying being stuck in, but at least people can enjoy it as part of gameplay and how it progresses, 0 - deaths don't do it, it removes gameplay completely and feels the worst of any gameplay experience for players.

Well I think there has been a miscommunication in what we mean by a 0-death combo. I am certainly NOT talking about something like the IC's freeze glitch, rather I am talking about something more akin to (this is ficticious of course) fox being able to up-air chain a character from 0-death after an up throw. The key difference here is that the person being combo'd can actually interact while being in hitstun by way of DI'ing both the throw and the subsequent upairs. We have seen from the top players that the fox player must hit with the last part of the upair or risk their opponent getting out of the combo. This is difficult enough for the fox player that they are left with either hoping their opponent does not SDI, or 'reading' their SDI and placing themselves so that the second hitbox will still hit (see mango's and m2k's upairs against hbox). In effect we have a zero to death but only in the most extreme cases should someone ever place their controller in their lap and wait it out.

 

[thesage]

Ness has a zero to death true combo off of a grab on Fox, Falco, and Falcon in melee. That's why those matchups are so strongly in his favor. /s

 

[hariooo]

1) You should be caring how unfun it is when how fun the game is does matter for a community. 0-deaths are not the same as combos, combos are punishment and are ways to enhance gameplay while adding choice. 0-deaths don't do this, you **** up and you die. It's not fun to basically put your control down and wait til they finish their 0-death. Combos might be slightly unsatisfying being stuck in, but at least people can enjoy it as part of gameplay and how it progresses, 0 - deaths don't do it, it removes gameplay completely and feels the worst of any gameplay experience for players.

2) This is the only argument I really value for keeping it, I understand it but I don't like it. It's just an execution barrier just to be one. It doesn't need to be there, combos in fighting games even when bread and butter still offer choices of following with one move or another. L-Cancelling never does it, it's always the answer you will pick because you must do it. Just cut all landing lag in half and remove L-cancelling, there is no difference in gameplay. That is why I don't like it at all.

3) Wavedashing is fast movement to get you from A-B, you can do moves out of this as well which leads to waveshining and Fox making me cry when I play Peach. Still I''m not entire sure how true oor not some of the claims people are making since I haven't played it and ppeople say things that I question how true or not. Dash thing is consistent but the landing lag I hear auto cancelling is a big thing for some characters, it's probably around that. On sheer movement, people are sped up.

4) Thats fine, tbh I'm always disappointed in PM for readding L-canceling but w/e, personal tastes and all. I'm not sure what is true or not for movement, but it does look better than Brawls which is a plus for me personally.

1. This logic is why I'm against Wobbling but a significant proportion of the Melee community is against me on it. I can't think of any other 0-death that is unaffected by DI though, at least in Melee so I don't understand the majority of the complaint.

2. I've already responded to this but let me add that bread and butters in all fighting games are about a reliable reward. If every time Akuma hits a meaty jump-in I can press a single button to get the combo with the most percent without using meter then it doesn't change how the game is played "optimally".

3. Wavedashing is not the optimal choice for horizontal movement. In fact its only redeeming quality is that you do it out of a jump. It's slower to do most moves out of a wavedash than a dash in most circumstances. So again I really don't think it's an issue of speed.

 

[KayB]

Read the first page real quick, and did people seriously argue about the way Kirby should be played?

First off, there is no "way" a character should be played. There is no obligation to play a character in a certain way nor is it necessary for those roots to pass on to the next game. Of course, certain limitations and boundaries have to be made concerning how far you can stretch your character, but the phrase "meant to be played" is no different from stubbornly insisting certain mechanics should stay in game.

Second off, where on earth did you guys get this vision of how Kirby's "supposed to be played" in the first place? Melee Kirby sucked, and I really don't think anybody can really argue that he was a well-designed character in any direction and should not be used as a good example of how Kirby is "meant to be played." Brawl Kirby was... well, in Brawl. Combos weren't exactly a thing in that game, so it's impossible to compare between the two styles of camping and comboing. And 64 Kirby was 64 Kirby, I don't think I even need to start there. The only example you could really make is PM, but that's only one example of a game and even then is hard to define it's supposed set-in-stone playstyle.

It's ridiculous, really. I can't believe people in the first page actually used "the way Kirby is supposed to be played" as an excuse.

 

[Doser]

It is when a game favors one heavily that this becomes an issue.

Most would agree that Brawl heavily favors defensive play, from what we have seen this is also the case with Smash 4. I haven't seen anyone arguing about removing all defensive options or making the offensive aspect wholly dominant. In fact I'd say that even if you took someone who actually wanted it to be Melee 2.0 you'd find that they also want a balance. Just looking at Sheik, Peach, and Jigglypuff being viable should be proof enough that offense is not heavily favored.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I personally saw a delicious Mario combo by PewPewU.

Double Uair > Utilt. That was clean.

Also saw Kirby do Dair > U tilt > Bair that seemed to connect fully.

 

[New_Dumal]

About what I watched today , skill matters.
Maybe not Melee-type of skill, and not Brawl-type of skill ... But even in the battles with itens (okay, some **** happens with Ken and PP), the characters that I realized playing better, won.
And in the end, ZeRo plays smart as I already watched many respected Melee and Brawl players doing.
So it's competitive , shots fired.

Don't come with "no wavedash, no combos, no Melee-techs or no Brawl-techs" stuff, is a completely new game.
I would enjoy a little more combos, but combos are not gone completely (PewpewU linked some nice stuff with Mario... And I can't believe Mario is the unique with this skill)

It's not everything I wanted, and certainly is not what anyone of you exactly wanted, but it will grows in a competitive scenario and I will play in that scenario.
I play UMvsC3 (casuals) for combos... and believe at me , that game is a mess. So many combos, and so much stupid stuff.
So give Sm4sh a rest from so much complains.

 

[Morbi]

Honestly, I was impressed with Smash 4. I had no complaints whatsoever.

 

[GTZ]

Smash 4 is something that isn't even released so calm down on the unimpressed garbage before the metagame has even been developed for it yet. Compared to other installments, Kirby doesn't look nerfed, he was just too slow comparatively to ZSS sudden deathwise

 

[Doser]

I can almost guarantee that the ranking system won't be anything significant. It's invisible (since Sakurai hates rankings and all) and most likely just to prevent outright noobs and pros getting paired often. I'm sure people won't even notice such a thing exists.

Well if that is the case, they have a bigger problem on their hands. ATs or not, the veteran smash players will almost certainly crush new players, and if they are not separated within a reasonable amount of time there will be some serious backlash.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well if that is the case, they have a bigger problem on their hands. ATs or not, the veteran smash players will almost certainly crush new players, and if they are not separated within a reasonable amount of time there will be some serious backlash.

You don't see complaints in KIU.
...Well, from the lesser-skilled anyway.

 

[Saito]

About what I watched today , skill matters.
Maybe not Melee-type of skill, and not Brawl-type of skill ... But even in the battles with itens (okay, some **** happens with Ken and PP), the characters that I realized playing better, won.

NAH BRAH.

Zelda williams who I believe was playing greninja was rocking in her match.

But somehow, bowser who was just spamming the down B of bowser managed to win that match.

I mean yeah the skill was there but I just had to say this because I REALLY THINK SHE SHOULD OF WON.

 

[StanHarford]

I like to play Brawl casually with my casual friends and Project M competitively with my competitive friends.
Casual Smash 4 looks great. Competitive Smash 4 looks quite dull.

I'm ok with Smash 4 being just for casuals, after all I have PM. But then I wonder, why did Nintendo make the effort of bringing GC controllers too Wii U and create a "For Glory" mode in the first place?

 

[CRASHiC]

She was playing Link

 

[Saito]

She was playing Link

Whoever was greninja was rocking it.

HARD.

my stream was cutting in and out though so I wasn't sure who was who. ;_;

 

[DaDavid]

So it begins huh...

As a big Smash fan with a significant preference for both Project M and Melee over Brawl as competitive titles, what I saw was a game with enough improvements and tweaks to make for a NEW competitive experience. No it's not as close to Melee as I think a lot of people were/are hoping for, but that's never what one should have expected given everything we've been told about this game.

The only worrisome part for me during that whole tournament was the result of a cowardly player using a strategy that slowed down the gameplay significantly, and even given that, HB kept it close by playing aggressively. I honestly think that what Zero pulled today will be less viable once the game is out there and people have opportunities to find counters to it.