Smash Wii U So yeah. I'm not impressed by Smash Wii U. What do you think?

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

I don't think anyone, except for a very small minority of people, want Smash 4 to be exactly like Melee or Melee 2.0. But a lot of people are seeing that it's really not a middle ground between Melee and Brawl at all. It's actually super similar to Brawl. While it is true that the characters move faster, that doesn't make the gameplay faster. "Faster than Brawl" does not affect the actual gameplay--it only affects how fast the characters move, not what they're doing. From what we've seen, it looks like the game rewards slow-paced defensive play, and this is very close to what Brawl was.

 

[D-idara]

Looks like the Gematsu leak is real. Show's over, boys, we know em' all...

Pac-Man was VERY likely.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Looks like the Gematsu leak is real. Show's over, boys, we know em' all...

That leak isn't real until "Chorus Boys" don't make it in.

 

[[TSON]]

I feel it's important to note that when some guys compared Fox's fallspeeds in Sm4sh, Brawl and Melee, Fox's fallspeed was almost exactly halfway between the two (I even ran the numbers because I'm a nerd like that), so no it's not "nearly X levels" as it is hardly closer to either of them. It's stuff like this that really makes me feel the Smash 4 will be its own beast entirely.

Fox may be the halfway point, but Kirby seems to have swallowed a family in comparison to Brawl and even Melee.

--- dat error double post ---

 

[Ulevo]

Here is what we know is in there,

Old Melee

L-Cancel – doesn’t seem to be in
Wavedashing – Definitely no
Shield Drop – Yes
Short Hop – Yes

Old Brawl Techniques
Run–> Turnaround is doable
DACUS – No one could do it
Glide tossing – None
Laser Lock – similar to Falco Laser lock, We managed it with Pikachu

Edge Mechanics
- Invulnerability depends on a combination of:
o %
o Air Time
o Distance recovered
- No Edgehogging
o If you hold ledge, and someone else wants it after, you get kicked off
 After kickoff, lag before you can do an action
- Brawl Ledge grab -> Run, turnaround grab ledge
- Ledge regrab doesn’t give invulnerability
- Run off stage  somersault/tumble motion XX(cancellable) into action
- Run off stage  grab edge in tumble (only certain characters)

Throwing
- Delay after throwing someone. Really hard to follow up
- No grab release infinites
- Mashing is doable *Unconfirmed*

Dashing
- Dash dancing is impossible
- Crouching to cancel dashing is impossible
- Pivot tilts are easy. Foxtrot is possible (F-Smash out of fox trot).
- Pivot F-smash is also doable
- Dashing is really questionable in this game
- U-Smash out of dash really easy (Flick C-stick)
- Standing grab out of full dash (shield+A, or shield + up cstick)

Spike
- Really Strong,

Crouch Cancel
- None

Shields
- No lightshielding
- Tilt shield is available

Out of Shield
- U-Smash out of shield very doable (Tested with Fox, same input as Melee)
- Shield grab available

Spot Dodge
- Really solid option

Air Dodge
- Multiple in one jump
- Air dodge  land = massive lag
Meteor Cancel
- Meteor cancel is available, seems difficult to execute (TV lag?)
Techs
- Buffer wall techs
DI
- Smash DI is not in (Tested with smart bombs) or significantly less than Melee? More testing needed
- DI is somewhat noticeable

Camera
- Doesn’t scale that well with people on edges/off-stage very well
-

Controls
- ¬Charge C-Stick smash attack charges

Reading this is disappointing, and confirms my suspicions. Things that made the game interesting, like SDI, being taken out is unnecessary. Reminds me of how they removed wall cling Zairs for no reason. And throws having start up lag, which is the go to option for combos for a lot of characters in games basically means there's very little to no combo game for a lot of characters.

I am not sure how I feel about the ledge mechanics. I feel it might give some give or take pros and cons, but over all it feels like it just makes it less rewarding to the player who is edge guarding properly and isn't rewarding you for keeping players off the stage.

Here's a list of things I was going to check tomorrow myself prior to reading this. Obviously some of it still applies:

• Length of Hit Lag

• Length of Shield Stun

• Dash to Air Momentum

• Aid Dodge Mechanics, Punishable?

• Dash Dancing

• Dash Canceling

• Crouch Cancelling

• Jab Cancelling

• JC Grabs

• Powershield vs Perfect Shield

• Length of Hit Stun, Combos

• Buffer

• Grab Release Mechanics

• Jab Reset

• Ledge Mechanics

• Full Hop Heights

• Ledge Cancel

• Moonwalking

• Up Smash/Up B OOS

• Edge Tech

• Smash DI

• Chain Grabs + Throw DI

• B Reversal

• B Turnaround

• Zair Lag

they are WAAAAAAAAAY toned down. link would have made a lot of the recoveries from before.

I don't care about the ledge hit box distances; I care about the fact that there is auto cling. Which there is. Takes depth away from the ledge game.

this does not a bad game make??? you can already do plenty out of run...

No down tilt, no forward tilt, no standard attack, no standing grab (Brawl's L/R+A had start up lag, not reliable), no forward or down smash. That's a lot of options you lose just from not being able to crouch out of a run. Pretty senseless to not include such a simple but interactive mechanic.

there very very very obviously is a good amount of hitstun. no, you can't combo 0-to-death, but there are a lot of combos. Fox even has utilt -> utilt. kirby did a lot of weaving combos too. it's a step in the right direction, and i'm sure with more practice we'll start seeing cooler combos.

The hit stun is irrelevant if the follow up is not there. Uair chains are not exactly thriller material. We saw things like Greninja's dive kick dair pop up in to back air combos in the trailers, and my concern is that **** was for show it actually doesn't exist.

landing lag is WAY less than Brawl. rosalina was able to do uair -> grab, which is a good sign. with more practice we will see better combos. you're forgetting this was with a couple days of practice and no community to help them discover stuff. gravity is WAY higher too, which will help.

I definitely think you're exaggerating here. The landing lag was very evident on some characters. Other characters not having landing lag on certain moves doesn't mean we're in the clear. I haven't touched Brawl in ages and I'm willing to bet I could do a Uair to Grab on Meta Knight. So yeah. Circumstantial evidence isn't selling me until I start seeing healthy trends of actualy consistent bread and butter stuff, not this niche circumstantial stuff you'll almost never see in a competitive match.

also hitlag has nothing to do with combos really if anything more hitlag should help with combos because it makes response time less of a strain. when you hit with an attack you have more time to think/press what you want to do next.

go back and watch pew's mario and tell me this game doesn't have combos omfg

Yeah, I saw. He had a combo or two going. I'd like to see more. I'm not looking for 0-death Falco styled combos. Just stuff that's consistent, reliable, flexible, and gives interesting interactions based on DI readings.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Fox may be the halfway point, but Kirby seems to have swallowed a family in comparison to Brawl and even Melee.

So the mobility changes are selective rather than universal? This just gets more interesting.

 

[D-idara]

Stop complaining about the small ledge snap, Melee's edges were as ridiculously hard as Brawl's were ridiculously easy.

 

[Pazzo.]

I'm impressed.

 

[Riposte__]

every new game of smash has been a different game then all the ones before it. Most of the dislike for Brawl wasn't because it 'wasn't melee' but because the mechanics took away the sense of player agency. Smash 4 looks to be a fast game because of cahracter speed and not because of wave dashing, so it's not melee 2.0 or even brawl 2.0, it's smash 4.

 

[HeroMystic]

Edge Mechanics
- Invulnerability depends on a combination of:
o %
o Air Time
o Distance recovered
- No Edgehogging
o If you hold ledge, and someone else wants it after, you get kicked off
 After kickoff, lag before you can do an action
- Brawl Ledge grab -> Run, turnaround grab ledge
- Ledge regrab doesn’t give invulnerability
- Run off stage  somersault/tumble motion XX(cancellable) into action
- Run off stage  grab edge in tumble (only certain characters)

I'm a little confused at the "No Edgehogging" part. Are you saying that it is impossible to edgehog Brawl-style, or are you saying if you grab the ledge while on the stage, you get no invincibility frames (and therefore kicked off)?

 

[Cap'nChreest]

I'm a little confused at the "No Edgehogging" part. Are you saying that it is impossible to edgehog Brawl-style, or are you saying if you grab the ledge while on the stage, you get no invincibility frames (and therefore kicked off)?

The character recovering can literally steal the ledge from the person already holding it. Invincibility isn't a set amount either it is relative to time in the air and percent damage.

 

[Anthon1996]

I bid ye, someone confirm whether or not the following have returned:
Dedede's chaingrab (infinite on Mario)
Pikachu's chaingrab (infinite on Fox)
Sheik's side-tilt lock (on Fox)
Any grab-release combos/chaingrabs
Ledge-cancelled aerials
Instant-catching/throwing
Jab locks

 

[rawrimamonster]

Here is what we know is in there,


Dashing
- Dash dancing is impossible

Crouch Cancel
- None

Shields
- No lightshielding

Air Dodge
- Multiple in one jump

Dropped for these alone. Not even gonna give this game a chance now. These combined with hits sending opponents really far making the massive hitstun POINTLESS would make this game really frustrating to me. Looks like its 6-7 more years of Melee, PM, and 64.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

I'm a little confused at the "No Edgehogging" part. Are you saying that it is impossible to edgehog Brawl-style, or are you saying if you grab the ledge while on the stage, you get no invincibility frames (and therefore kicked off)?

Both, actually.

When you are on the ledge, anyone else can grab the ledge, meaning you cannot "hog" it.

Also, when you let go of the ledge and then regrab it, you are completely vulnerable.

 

[LancerStaff]

I can already say that this will have one huge advantage over Melee: Balance. Dunno about you, but I'd like to see more then the same five characters used. Want proof?

According with an interview with Sakurai that's happening at this very moment, Sakurai said all balancing in Melee was done himself. Brawl got four graders alongside Sakurai, but they weren't incredibly skilled and had too much bias. Now SSB4 has twelve, more experienced testers. Even better, balance patches are possible.

 

[Ulevo]

every new game of smash has been a different game then all the ones before it. Most of the dislike for Brawl wasn't because it 'wasn't melee' but because the mechanics took away the sense of player agency. Smash 4 looks to be a fast game because of cahracter speed and not because of wave dashing, so it's not melee 2.0 or even brawl 2.0, it's smash 4.

I think this is wrong, and just something people like to parrot. If you look at it from a perspective of mechanics, and inclusions and exclusions, you can argue that Brawl isn't Melee 2.0, sure. That's because Brawl lost a LOT but also added mechanics of its own. But I think arguing Smash Wii U is Brawl 2.0 is pretty realistic. So far I haven't seen very much to imply that many new mechanics have been added to give it a unique experience. In fact, it's probably stripped even more away now than Brawl did, the only difference being is that we've (hopefully) traded that in for less bugs and game balance problems and more characters. Still not a favourable trade off in my opinion. I'd rather have a smaller roster and a kick ass engine.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

snip

I think you're being a bit overzealous here when you're expecting people to have some combos nails down on a game they just picked up on the spot.

 

[Ulevo]

I think you're being a bit overzealous here when you're expecting people to have some combos nails down on a game they just picked up on the spot.

I'm making observations on what we've been given. I'm not making any outlandish claims, but my suspicions have merit. What's your point? You not want us to discuss it? I don't see anything better to do until we have the game in hand ourselves.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm actually interested in how the lack of Edgehog (and planking) will affect Smash 4's metagame. In both Melee and Brawl (especially Brawl), edge-hogging was a dominant option over anything else. Neutering that option allows for much more exciting engagements off the stage. Will you try to gimp your opponent's jumps and continuously knock him away, or will you just take opportunities to rack up more damage?

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

I can already say that this will have one huge advantage over Melee: Balance. Dunno about you, but I'd like to see more then the same five characters used. Want proof?

According with an interview with Sakurai that's happening at this very moment, Sakurai said all balancing in Melee was done himself. Brawl got four graders alongside Sakurai, but they weren't incredibly skilled and had too much bias. Now SSB4 has twelve, more experienced testers. Even better, balance patches are possible.

He also said some characters are more balanced for 4-player over 1v1. I don't consider this a good balancing model to be honest, but then again I've never balanced a game either.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I really hate to respond with a comment like this, as I'm usually rather polite. But Melee folks, please stop being jerks. We get it, it's not Melee.

Everyone talks about #oneunit. It's a joke, a farce, a blatant lie. Melee vs Brawl will never end. Melee vs Sm4sh is already beginning alongside the new 3DS vs Wii U. Even though most of us here probably know and have studied our history we are dooming ourselves to repeat it.

If you don't like the game it's fine, and I'm not telling you not to talk about it, but all over many smash sites people already are just blatantly bashing the game without even giving it a chance just because it isn't Melee. These kinds of threads and discussions always end up being so useless and filled with flames, why do we just keep doing this? Are we going to have to go back to the days where mods banned anyone who even got CLOSE to making topics like this just to keep the peace? At the going rate we'll have to.

Personally, I'm excited for this next game. I'm going to play it a ton, there will be phenomenal tournaments for it, tons of hype, and it will be amazing just like every other smash game. If people don't like it, just quietly go back to the games you did enjoy and hype them up, they'll never go away with all the dedicated support they have. Why go out of the way to ruin hype for others?

I'm not disappointed in smash Wii u, i'm disappointed by this thread and the smash community as a whole for having these horrible attitudes. If this could be a productive discussion I'd be all for it, but from the looks of things it can't and never will be.

 

[Ulevo]

I really hate to respond with a comment like this, as I'm usually rather polite. But Melee folks, please stop being jerks. We get it, it's not Melee.

Everyone talks about #oneunit. It's a joke, a farce, a blatant lie. Melee vs Brawl will never end. Melee vs Sm4sh is already beginning alongside the new 3DS vs Wii U. Even though most of us here probably know and have studied our history we are dooming ourselves to repeat it.

If you don't like the game it's fine, and I'm not telling you not to talk about it, but all over many smash sites people already are just blatantly bashing the game without even giving it a chance just because it isn't Melee. These kinds of threads and discussions always end up being so useless and filled with flames, why do we just keep doing this? Are we going to have to go back to the days where mods banned anyone who even got CLOSE to making topics like this just to keep the peace? At the going rate we'll have to.

Personally, I'm excited for this next game. I'm going to play it a ton, there will be phenomenal tournaments for it, tons of hype, and it will be amazing just like every other smash game. If people don't like it, just quietly go back to the games you did enjoy and hype them up, they'll never go away with all the dedicated support they have. Why go out of the way to ruin hype for others?

I'm not disappointed in smash Wii u, i'm disappointed by this thread and the smash community as a whole for having these horrible attitudes. If this could be a productive discussion I'd be all for it, but from the looks of things it can't and never will be.

I'd just like to take this special moment to point out that if anyone here has brought more attention to the Melee vs Brawl debacle, it's you with this post. I may not be showing the new game with hugs and kisses, but I'm giving my reasons as to why with specific points. At least keep your posts pertinent.

 

[ryuu seika]

Never? Have you played 64?

64 Kirby is the same character in name alone. He has more similarity with Jiggz than Kirby when you compare to Melee characters.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm a little confused at the "No Edgehogging" part. Are you saying that it is impossible to edgehog Brawl-style, or are you saying if you grab the ledge while on the stage, you get no invincibility frames (and therefore kicked off)?

It is. Edgehogging is gone, you need to use your aireals not to keep them away.

No invincibility is just if you go for a regrab, aka the thing that made planking work.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'd just like to take this special moment to point out that if anyone here has brought more attention to the Melee vs Brawl debacle, it's you with this post. I may not be showing the new game with hugs and kisses, but I'm giving my reasons as to why with specific points. At least keep your posts pertinent.

Read the rest of the thread, it's rather pertinent. I'm not complaining about your post in particular, but the people blatantly dismissing the game are already here and posting. Read a few of the posts in the thread.

People really gotta get their hands on a final product before making these decisions. I'm not against discussion, heck there were a few things I didn't personally care for as well but the people literally dismissing it in here for not being Melee is disappointing.

 

[LancerStaff]

He also said some characters are more balanced for 4-player over 1v1. I don't consider this a good balancing model to be honest, but then again I've never balanced a game either.

Even FFA has noticeable balance issues in Melee. If SSB4 is comparitively perfect, 1v1s wouldn't be far behind.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm making observations on what we've been given. I'm not making any outlandish claims, but my suspicions have merit. What's your point? You not want us to discuss it? I don't see anything better to do until we have the game in hand ourselves.

What I am saying you're making a remake on something that is pretty far out there to expect from players who just picked up the game.

I'm not saying you can't be pessimistic about this, what I am saying is basing on this tournament is foolhardy because none of the people there had any experience in nailing it down. Throw these players into a game they just picked up you're not gonna get much combo wise.

the developers did, which is why you say Greninja/Sonic/ZSS combo in the demo videos. Zero doesn't play ZSS, Hungrybox doesn't play Kirby.

I don't take an issue with your viewpoint, I take issue with where it is coming from.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

I really hate to respond with a comment like this, as I'm usually rather polite. But Melee folks, please stop being jerks. We get it, it's not Melee.

Everyone talks about #oneunit. It's a joke, a farce, a blatant lie. Melee vs Brawl will never end. Melee vs Sm4sh is already beginning alongside the new 3DS vs Wii U. Even though most of us here probably know and have studied our history we are dooming ourselves to repeat it.

If you don't like the game it's fine, and I'm not telling you not to talk about it, but all over many smash sites people already are just blatantly bashing the game without even giving it a chance just because it isn't Melee. These kinds of threads and discussions always end up being so useless and filled with flames, why do we just keep doing this? Are we going to have to go back to the days where mods banned anyone who even got CLOSE to making topics like this just to keep the peace? At the going rate we'll have to.

Personally, I'm excited for this next game. I'm going to play it a ton, there will be phenomenal tournaments for it, tons of hype, and it will be amazing just like every other smash game. If people don't like it, just quietly go back to the games you did enjoy and hype them up, they'll never go away with all the dedicated support they have. Why go out of the way to ruin hype for others?

I'm not disappointed in smash Wii u, i'm disappointed by this thread and the smash community as a whole for having these horrible attitudes. If this could be a productive discussion I'd be all for it, but from the looks of things it can't and never will be.

No one is saying that they want it to be Melee. That's not what people are saying. Pointing out that the gameplay highly resembles Brawl is not a complaint that Smash 4 is not like Melee--it's an observation that Smash 4 seems to be very similar to Brawl alone, which some people are disappointed by.

I'm not saying you can't be pessimistic about this, what I am saying is basing on this tournament is foolhardy because none of the people there had any experience in nailing it down. Throw these players into a game they just picked up you're not gonna get much combo wise.
the developers did, which is why you say Greninja/Sonic/ZSS combo in the demo videos. Zero doesn't play ZSS, Hungrybox doesn't play Kirby.

Zero is a ZSS main in Brawl, actually. Not arguing with you at all or anything, just wanted to clear that up.

EDIT: Woops. You're right, I was remember things wrong. Zero is definitely a Meta Knight main in Brawl. My bad.

 

[HeroMystic]

Read the rest of the thread, it's rather pertinent. I'm not complaining about your post in particular, but the people blatantly dismissing the game are already here and posting. Read a few of the posts in the thread.

People really gotta get their hands on a final product before making these decisions. I'm not against discussion, heck there were a few things I didn't personally care for as well but the people literally dismissing it in here for not being Melee is disappointing.

I think it's less about it not being Melee and more about it being Brawl.

That said if people aren't going to give it a chance especially after the information that has been placed here, then it is what it is. I'm actually quite interested in how things will go from here.

 

[Ulevo]

What I am saying you're making a remake on something that is pretty far out there to expect from players who just picked up the game.

I'm not saying you can't be pessimistic about this, what I am saying is basing on this tournament is foolhardy because none of the people there had any experience in nailing it down. Throw these players into a game they just picked up you're not gonna get much combo wise.

the developers did, which is why you say Greninja/Sonic/ZSS combo in the demo videos. Zero doesn't play ZSS, Hungrybox doesn't play Kirby.

I don't take an issue with your viewpoint, I take issue with where it is coming from.

And normally I'd be fine with this perspective given that I am someone who likes to take a patient approach and observe things over time. I'm not buying it in this instance though. Given how simplistic this game is, or appears to be, and how experienced players like Ken, PP, HungryBox, KDJ, and others that were there, I sincerely doubt that the most they could come up with was what we saw presented today, unless it was due to character and engine limitations, and not simply a lack of experimentation.

To put it another way, we went through this whole shpeal when Brawl came out in 2007, and the same arguments being presented now in favor of the game were made in its defense back then. People were giving it the benefit of the doubt because it was a case of precedent, and we largely couldn't accept that Brawl being Melee's successor could be so drastically different. We were wrong, the honeymoon phase is long over, and the community is a lot smarter and more skeptical this time. I don't think we're going to take very long to dismantle this game and scrutinize it where its due, quite frankly.

I'm buying a Wii U, but as of right now, it won't be for Smash. Splatoon looks like the ****, though!

 

[LancerStaff]

No one is saying that they want it to be Melee. That's not what people are saying. Pointing out that the gameplay highly resembles Brawl is not a complaint that Smash 4 is not like Melee--it's an observation that Smash 4 seems to be very similar to Brawl alone, which some people are disappointed by.

No hitstun canceling, no Brawl techs, no planking, no horrible balance... It's not either, and is not favoring either significantly from what we can tell.

 

[hariooo]

but fox can combo utilt to utilt i can't control my hype right guys

 

[Ulevo]

No hitstun canceling, no Brawl techs, no planking, no horrible balance... It's not either, and is not favoring either significantly from what we can tell.

Don't hold your breathe on the horrible balance. Wait until the games out. The game has a huge roster, and roster balance gets exponentially more difficult the larger the roster is. Also, that comment Sakurai made about Samus being the most powerful character in testing isn't really solidifying my belief in their balancing credentials.

but fox can combo utilt to utilt i can't control my hype right guys

Basically this.

 

[sakuraZaKi]

I honestly just wish Sakurai did his own thing. The jump from 64->Melee->Brawl had new things given and things removed each iteration. It felt fresh. Now the team has more to worry about to appease people, and I'm stuck with a semi-familiar game. I don't want another Brawl. I don't want another Melee or 64.

Smash to me was about getting my favorite Nintendo character(s) and kicking ass with it. While Melee had that spark ("beautiful accident") to it that brought out an enjoyable competitiveness like no other, it was only the cherry on top of the already good cake. I still haven't forgotten why I enjoy the franchise so much.

Getting a Wii U for this and many other games. Nintendo totally won my heart this E3 and I thought the invitational was pretty hype.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Pfft, don't know what you guys are talking about, I'm totally hyped.

'course then again, I loved Brawl, so...sucks to be the haters! :D

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

I am fine with the mechanics we've seen so far. I enjoyed Melee very much; I loved its fast and quick paced gameplay. I enjoyed Brawl very much, even with it not being as speedy as Melee. I can already tell I'm going to enjoy Smash 4. It looks fun, which is why I've always played Smash.

No, it's not going to have all the competitive features of Melee, and that isn't even bad necessarily. But for myslef, I'm not skipping out on this game. New modes, Amibo, potential better online, Smash run, and a very unique roster? No way I'm leaving that just because the mechanics aren't up to my standards.

 

[Nazo]

Auto-snapping isn't a bad thing, especially if the player doesn't get invincibility frames after re-grabbing the ledge. They are forced to either get up on stage or get punished. It also becomes more punishable as the player's airtime comes into play.


PS: Zero mains Metaknight in brawl

 

[Ulevo]

Thought I'd post this here.

Q: Any plans for the competitive scene moving forward?

A: Sakurai is not involved in tourney planning. He was impressed with the enthusiasm for this game at today's tourney. He wants to support the scene by making more games like these.

Q: Asking about the balancing of the game.

A: Sakurai says it is hard to balance the game. Discussing the process of balancing. he basically did it all by himself in Melee
Concern over balance after brawl's problems. it gets very technical. Sakurai was responsible for the changes from N64 to Melee. He had to use a broader grading system with help from staff when working on Brawl. The process became tricky due to biases in the graders' playing style. For the new games they have 12 graders, but there could still be balance anomolies. And when creating a game, the developers cannot just appeal to traditional fanbases. They need to reach out to new gamers, and cater to many target users. Sakurai points out some chars are better suited for 2 vs 4 player and with or without items. Sakurai considers smash a party game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Zero is a ZSS main in Brawl, actually. Not arguing with you at all or anything, just wanted to clear that up.

EDIT: Sorry for double post.

I thought he just played Metaknight?

Oh well, I don't keep up with what every pro plays, my b :x.

And normally I'd be fine with this perspective given that I am someone who likes to take a patient approach and observe things over time. I'm not buying it in this instance though. Given how simplistic this game is, or appears to be, and how experienced players like Ken, PP, HungryBox, KDJ, and others that were there, I sincerely doubt that the most they could come up with was what we saw presented today, unless it was due to character and engine limitations, and not simply a lack of experimentation.

To put it another way, we went through this whole shpeal when Brawl came out in 2007, and the same arguments being presented now in favor of the game were made in its defense back then. People were giving it the benefit of the doubt because it was a case of precedent, and we largely couldn't accept that Brawl being Melee's successor could be so drastically different. We were wrong, the honeymoon phase is long over, and the community is a lot smarter and more skeptical this time. I don't think we're going to take very long to dismantle this game and scrutinize it where its due, quite frankly.

I'm buying a Wii U, but as of right now, it won't be for Smash. Splatoon looks like the ****, though!

the thing is when it came out people had a more legitimate reason to ***** at it, slower, some janky stuff people discovered, etc.

Right now you're basing part of your view of the combo element on day 1 with people who just picked it up on the spot, even if it is a bunch of pros they are trying to get used to a new engine/changed moves.

Again, it's not about you being skeptical that's the issue I have right now, it's the fact part of it is based on something that is really hard for anyone to get right. Smash isn't like street fighter where you can make sure crouching mid punch will always combo with hadoken.

It's trickier when your trying to rebalance and remake an engine that isn't a standard fighter into a different format of "in the middle" rather than It's melee or brawl like.

Heck even in finals Zero ****ed up more than half the basic ZSS stuff that easily looks like it can combo, and probably does. Pro or not, this wasn't a clear show of what the combo potential is. Tomorrow we might get a better feel for that though with more feedback from people.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

PS: Zero mains Metaknight in brawl

My bad. You're totally right. I'm stupid.