Smash Wii U So yeah. I'm not impressed by Smash Wii U. What do you think?

[Bread-Butterer]

Amen to that I have to say. They did a fantastic job in this game. Melee players are obviously not going to like it if they want a completely new Melee game.

For the love of god.. once again: We don't want Melee. We want a game that doesn't have gimped mechanics to appease casual fans. If you read any of the posts in this thread, you would see that.

 

[R0Y]

Meleetism is getting really old....

So you're one of something less than 250k people who watch people play Melee with wannabe sports announcers and can't accept change? Cool story bro.

 

[sunshinesan]

"In Sakurai's interviews, where he says he wants everyone to win... I cannot understand that mindset because Melee was so popular and still is because it had the duality of being able to be played as a party game and as a competitive game. I don't understand the reason for just eliminating half."

 

[ZeldaMaster]

I'm a bit disappointed, yes, but I'm sure that it's only because of the mii reveal.

 

[BaPr]

For the love of god.. once again: We don't want Melee. We want a game that doesn't have gimped mechanics to appease casual fans. If you read any of the posts in this thread, you would see that.

Excuse me for not reading every single post here. I got on the first page not realizing there were more pages. Sheesh.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

lol you sound like someone who should stick to rock paper scissors

Not to argue over semantics, but rock paper scissors is exactly what we need. Unfortunately, we don't have that. 64, Melee, and PM (and most well-made fighters in existence) are essentially rock-paper-scissors. In the case of Smash, Scissors (Grab) punishes Paper (Shielding) which protects against Rock (standard attacks).

From what we've seen and from what the invitational players have reported, the end lag after throwing a grabbed character is too long for follow-ups or combos, which makes the scissors (grabbing) mostly useless, disrupting that rock-paper-scissors dynamic.

 

[chipz]

Sure, if you're ignorant enough to disregard over a decade of experience with this genre.

Looks like trash to be honest. Brawl 2.0; same hit-stun, same terrible mechanics, no lag canceling (making 90%+ of the cast completely unplayable), auto ledge-snaps, brawls gaming engine. It look likes an HD Brawl that has faster running animations. Not buying the game, that's for sure.

I wish I could make decisions as fast as you can
Id save a lot of time!

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

I would actually like seeing Project M having a go at the Wii U version eventually, regardless of how much of an improvement this is over Brawl. I just like what they've done and would love to see what they'd change.

 

[LancerStaff]

lol you sound like someone who should stick to rock paper scissors

And you want a thirty-two button controller where you control every single muscle in the character's body? Moar options.

Looks like trash to be honest. Brawl 2.0; same hit-stun, same terrible mechanics, no lag canceling (making 90%+ of the cast completely unplayable), auto ledge-snaps, brawls gaming engine. It look likes an HD Brawl that has faster running animations. Not buying the game, that's for sure.

Why do Melee fans have to get what they want and not Brawl fans?

For the love of god.. once again: We don't want Melee. We want a game that doesn't have gimped mechanics to appease casual fans. If you read any of the posts in this thread, you would see that.

No, but you've already sworn off SSB4 for Melee without even playing it.

 

[Doser]

I would actually like seeing Project M having a go at the Wii U version eventually, regardless of how much of an improvement this is over Brawl. I just like what they've done and would love to see what they'd change.

It remains to be seen how easy it is to load modified code. We would have to be pretty lucky to have something similar to Brawl's case where you don't even need to modify your console.

 

[NewGuy79]

If this is how it's like today...I think im gona pass visiting the site for tomarow

 

[chipz]

No, but you've already sworn off SSB4 for Melee without even playing it.

smash brothers tantrums are pretty embarrassing to read, huh

apparently we already have a tier list which is amusingly premature

 

[felipe_9595]

The game looks like really bad if you see its competitive aspect, you only neeed to check SOnic or Samus videos, the landing lag is massive, it interrupts everything, Sonic's Bair and Samus's dair leaves them in the ground for at least 1.5 seconds, that's insane.

 

[LancerStaff]

The game looks like really bad if you see its competitive aspect, you only neeed to check SOnic or Samus videos, the landing lag is massive, it interrupts everything, Sonic's Bair and Samus's dair leaves them in the ground for at least 1.5 seconds, that's insane.

When everybody is slow, nobody is. And auto-canceling.

 

[Saito]

When everybody is slow, nobody is.

I don't know if that's a good mindset.

If everyone is slow it can be balanced sure, but if it's too slow it might not be that fun to play.

That isn't necessarily true of all games, but for a fighter / party game (in sakurai's words), that's pretty much based on hectic, random and crazy stuff all happening at the same time, I would think speed is a good thing to have.

 

[Doser]

When everybody is slow, nobody is. And auto-canceling.

Yet the game can still be slow.

 

[ThomasTheTrain]

When everybody is slow, nobody is. And auto-canceling.

It's basically a beta build so everything should be taken with a grain of salt. But the game is slow in that aggressive approaches simply are way way riskier than sitting around and playing the zoning game, and it's a pain in the rear for characters who aren't strong in the zoning game.

 

[hariooo]

Naw man, if you haven't played the game you're only allowed to salivate over it. Any skepticism (even if you remember reading the exact same talking points in 2007) and you're a Melee elitist.

 

[CRASHiC]

Not to argue over semantics, but rock paper scissors is exactly what we need. Unfortunately, we don't have that. 64, Melee, and PM (and most well-made fighters in existence) are essentially rock-paper-scissors. In the case of Smash, Scissors (Grab) punishes Paper (Shielding) which protects against Rock (standard attacks).

From what we've seen and from what the invitational players have reported, the end lag after throwing a grabbed character is too long for follow-ups or combos, which makes the scissors (grabbing) mostly useless, disrupting that rock-paper-scissors dynamic.

Actually, we've never had that.
No, what we've had is
Grab > Shield and grab > attack.
Grab armor, not being able to jump to avoid grab, and grabs going through shields all together makes grabs systemically broken. They are the worst designed part of Smash Brothers by far.

Also, what we saw in today's performance is actually in line with most fighters. Grabs rarely lead into combos outside of Anime fighters (which are not very well regarded among competitive communities) and outside of grappler characters they are minor ticks of damage in return for a safer option. Grabs also provide positioning advantage when used correctly.

The change in smash brings us more in line with that direction, minor damage advantage and large positioning advantage for a very safe option.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

So I'm guessing many are disappointed. Not surprising. Sure, the mechanics don't meet my standards, but it's one thing to give a prediction of a product and another to completely judge the product when it is still in progress.

I'm disappointed with some things, but I'm not letting that stop me from buying this game. There's a colorful and unique roster of characters, items, and stages, new modes, NFC figures, and potential better online. I am NOT going to skip out on all that becuase of the mechanics of a unfinished game in which developers are receiving feedback. The mechanics aren't what I wished for, but I enjoyed Melee and Brawl regardless of their respective physics, so sign me up for Smash 4.

I'm hyped.

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

It remains to be seen how easy it is to load modified code. We would have to be pretty lucky to have something similar to Brawl's case where you don't even need to modify your console.

I know it's improbable, but I'd still like to see it. I like the idea of having both the regular version and the community-modded competitive edition to play.

 

[hariooo]

Actually, we've never had that.
No, what we've had is
Grab > Shield and grab > attack.
Grab armor, not being able to jump to avoid grab, and grabs going through shields all together makes grabs systemically broken. They are the worst designed part of Smash Brothers by far.

Also, what we saw in today's performance is actually in line with most fighters. Grabs rarely lead into combos outside of Anime fighters (which are not very well regarded among competitive communities) and outside of grappler characters they are minor ticks of damage in return for a safer option. Grabs also provide positioning advantage when used correctly.

The change in smash brings us more in line with that direction, minor damage advantage and large positioning advantage for a very safe option.

Except MvC3 which is basically 50% of what the FGC plays, the other half being SFIV. You can 0-death someone off a grab in that game about as well as Melee (you need the knowledge, skill, and execution but it's possible). Ignore the fact that traditional fighters use an hp system as opposed to a ring knockout system and even the games where grabs aren't a huge threat at least rack up damage that is significant in terms of "getting grabbed too often can make me lose". Airdodging out of a throw that does like 8% to set the stage back to neutral means a grab has very little consequence.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What I mean to say is that it's a little silly to assume at this point that Sakurai isn't aware of these little sort of details of gameplay we as a niche community want in our game. They're not absent in the demo because we didn't give them the right recommendations. They're not in the demo because Sakurai and Co. have a specific direction for the game that simply doesn't involve what we would want and expect. I mean, they can tout all they like about how tripping is removed, make it seem like adding a For Glory mode is catering to our needs, add a few Final Destination skins and call it a day. But all of that is not what we really want (minus the tripping), and that's pretty obvious.

Melee is a masterpiece. A sheer, brilliant, incredible masterpiece. And to top it all off, Sakurai had a personal hand in nearly all of it. I refuse to believe Sakurai doesn't know what a dash dance is, and has to have some college students explain the nuances to his development team to make sure its considered. If it's not in already, I'm pretty sure its because its not supposed to be. lol

Depends who you ask.

He is aware of old techs like Wavedashing and L-Cancelling, I don't want one of those to ever show up again because it's over no decision making whatsoever or depth. He could add wavedaashing, or he could make movement just fluid on the ground with running and dashes, I'm a little worried about dashes atm but mostly from what some people were saying how they functioned.

He still is improving the game at the very least from what Brawl was, this game is defiantly more streamlined and not rushed. They can listen to suggestions but honestly, you still have to consider that it is a game trying to appeal to a large audience so not all of these are a good idea.

Except MvC3 which is basically 50% of what the FGC plays, the other half being SFIV. You can 0-death someone off a grab in that game about as well as Melee (you need the knowledge, skill, and execution but it's possible). Ignore the fact that traditional fighters use an hp system as opposed to a ring knockout system and even the games where grabs aren't a huge threat at least rack up damage that is significant in terms of "getting grabbed too often can make me lose". Airdodging out of a throw that does like 8% to set the stage back to neutral means a grab has very little consequence.

0-death off a grab...I''m sure people would enjoy that.

 

[nessokman]

Yes, I hate it. It's obviously the love child of hitler and satan.

It isn't melee, therefore it isn't good.

If you ever read the melee holy book you would know wavedash 12:23 says:

"and sakurai-senpai said unto the community; thou shalt not appreciate any game that dare not be thy sacred melee."

After that, Miyamoto saved all if those who appreciate the greatness that is melee and gave GameCube controllers to all.

 

[CRASHiC]

Except MvC3 which is basically 50% of what the FGC plays, the other half being SFIV. You can 0-death someone off a grab in that game about as well as Melee (you need the knowledge, skill, and execution but it's possible). Ignore the fact that traditional fighters use an hp system as opposed to a ring knockout system and even the games where grabs aren't a huge threat at least rack up damage that is significant in terms of "getting grabbed too often can make me lose". Airdodging out of a throw that does like 8% to set the stage back to neutral means a grab has very little consequence.

MvC3 grabs also have huge issues. In both games grabs suffer from entirely unhealthy option selects, the worst offender being block or grab option select in MvC2.

Grabs being 0 to death is well reguarded as one of the worst parts about the MvC series as the reward heavily outweighs the risk, just like in smash.

You also aren't factoring in just how important positioning is in a platform-fighter like smash.

You know you really shouldn't talk about games you aren't very good at.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

I think that everyone, whether they're excited for the game or not, should just take a little chill pill for a sec and relaaaaaaaax. There's a lot of aggressive posting on this board and a lot of misunderstanding of what other people are saying on all sides.

While I am worried that the gameplay seems to reward defensive play and that there doesn't appear to be viable approach/movement options, I am also aware that our current understanding of the game is based on first impressions, and I certainly won't dismiss the game before even playing it. Moreover, I am optimistic that Nintendo is listening to feedback and will deliver us a solid Smash title.

I think we can have an intelligent conversation about the game without some people being overwhelmingly negative about early gameplay and other people throwing out accusations of melee purism for discussing potentially-questionable gameplay mechanics.

We are discussing a video game. Everything's gonna be okay. We can be respectful, and there's no need for us to be so radical in our opinions and antagonistic to each other.

 

[hariooo]

If you believe half the people in this thread Sakurai built Melee for a niche audience and the first 5 years I played Melee with friends without any knowledge of advanced tech were just lies and I didn't have any fun at all.

 

[Doser]

hey can listen to suggestions but honestly, you still have to consider that it is a game trying to appeal to a large audience so not all of these are a good idea.

0-death off a grab...I''m sure epopel would enjoy that.

I fail to see how this would impact people who want to enjoy the game more casually. Surely these people are not in the same set as those that would be 'zero to death'ing their opponents. If they never learn how to wavedash, that's also fine given that they would be playing against people roughly in their own skill level.

L-canceling, wavedashing, jump canceling etc. do not alter the game for people who are not inclined to play this game competitively.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

People should really knock it off with the antagonism with the communities.

There is a difference with discussing aspects of a game and just down right posting to flame or troll someone.

Know the line.

 

[nessokman]

People should really knock it off with the antagonism with the communities.

There is a difference with discussing aspects of a game and just down right posting to flame or troll someone.

Know the line.

I feel that was directed my way.

 

[Doser]

Yes, I hate it. It's obviously the love child of hitler and satan.

It isn't melee, therefore it isn't good.

If you ever read the melee holy book you would know wavedash 12:23 says:

"and sakurai-senpai said unto the community; thou shalt not appreciate any game that dare not be thy sacred melee."

After that, Miyamoto saved all if those who appreciate the greatness that is melee and gave GameCube controllers to all.

Stop putting words into the mouths of those who were not impressed by the exhibition.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

I think it's too early to judge, unless that's the sort of person you are aiming to be.

Haven't even played yet!

 

[nessokman]

Stop putting words into the mouths of those who were not impressed by the exhibition.

It's called sarcasm. Learn how to master it's power, and you can find humor in any situation.

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

I doubt SSB4 will turn out to be a zone-heavy game. There'll be ways around it, if all the Reflects and Counters are any fair indication, and generally most fighting games have zoning that isn't insurmountable. Of course, sometimes it's even embraced (Chris G's Morrigan combo), but not all the time (Injustice last EVO).

 

[Doser]

Actually, we've never had that.
No, what we've had is
Grab > Shield and grab > attack.
Grab armor, not being able to jump to avoid grab, and grabs going through shields all together makes grabs systemically broken.

I don't think this is true at all. Stating that 'grab > attack' is a gross misrepresentation of the previous titles. Grabs generally have less range than a standard approaching attack, or they are tethers in which case you can actively jump over them/side-step/run away etc. and then punish them with an attack.

It is clearly not the case that grabbing is somehow a counter to the standard approaches.

 

[Doser]

It's called sarcasm. Learn how to master it's power, and you can find humor in any situation.

Being condescending, when in reality your post was hardly out of line with some of the other responses that have been posted here, is a bit much. Poe's law and all that.

 

[hariooo]

MvC3 grabs also have huge issues. In both games grabs suffer from entirely unhealthy option selects, the worst offender being block or grab option select in MvC2.

Grabs being 0 to death is well reguarded as one of the worst parts about the MvC series as the reward heavily outweighs the risk, just like in smash.

You also aren't factoring in just how important positioning is in a platform-fighter like smash.

You know you really shouldn't talk about games you aren't very good at.

Your entire post sounds like whining about game mechanics you aren't very good at.

I guess if you pretend that I'm bad at some game you won't have to make an argument that requires any thinking though.

 

[LancerStaff]

I fail to see how this would impact people who want to enjoy the game more casually. Surely these people are not in the same set as those that would be 'zero to death'ing their opponents. If they never learn how to wavedash, that's also fine given that they would be playing against people roughly in their own skill level.

L-canceling, wavedashing, jump canceling etc. do not alter the game for people who are not inclined to play this game competitively.

Yes, they do. The two types of player will be in even closer quarters because of the online and attention competitive play is getting.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

This got immature very quickly.. what started off as a guy simply discussing his first impressions turned into yet another war about how everyone who isn't impressed with the mechanics so far wants Melee 2.0.

If you don't like the mechanics so far, fine.
If you're okay or satisfied with them so far, fine.
No need to transform a simple discussion into an argument.

 

[nessokman]

Being condescending, when in reality your post was hardly out of line with some of the other responses that have been posted here, is a bit much. Poe's law and all that.

Condescending? I'm simply stating how the melee community is in a more extreme and sarcastic way.