Smash Wii U So yeah. I'm not impressed by Smash Wii U. What do you think?

[Renji64]

It seems better tha brawl but kinda hard to tell if there is combos or will it be enjoyable for people who didn't enjoy the last medicore installment of smash aka brawl.

 

[JV5Chris]

The game appears to lean heavily on Brawl in terms of the approach/movement/followup limitations. Was really hoping Smash 4 would focus instead on freeing up player control and tightening up the responsiveness to be closer to Nintendo platforming standards. Oh well.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

At it's core, I'm seeing similar problems to what Brawl has had. Of course, all the glaring bugs and balance problems plaguing Brawl are not evident; we'll have to wait for that upon release to see how clean the game is. But the obvious stuff was there. Auto cling ledges are still there. No dash cancelling, meaning limited approach options out of a run. Is there hit stun? I'm not sure. I saw characters get out of combo scenarios that looked like they should be guaranteed, especially in the Grand Finals. And even if there is hit stun, it looks irrelevant. Because there's no L-Cancelling (or for those of you who dislike L-Cancelling, reduced landing lag on characters) and hitlag on moves lasts for too long, characters appear to have very limited combo opportunities. People forget that it wasn't the hit stun in Melee that made combos possible. It was the speed that the game ran at that allowed you to follow up during the stun.

I'm going to Best Buy tomorrow to try it for myself, and I plan on confirming what certain mechanics have been brought back or neglected, but thus far I'm not seeing a significant improvement in terms of core mechanics.

I expected the game to be more of a brawl update than a melee successor. Which it seems to have become completely. Overall, Brawl was a fine game at its core for what it decided to change from melee. Ultimately, I am convinced that it simply had a few short comings that sort of doomed it. I am not referring to the speed of the game or hitstun or other common melee/brawl comparisons.

To me, the biggest flaws with Brawl were ledge mechanics being too strong for the person on the ledge and tripping. The final result was only evident after years of metagame and that being an unbalanced top/high tier section. MK/ICs have clearly shown to be the characters to stick with compared to the old expanded favorites of say Falco/Snake. From how I see it is that Brawl went to focus more on having to win several engagements over the course of a stock compared to melee/smash64 where a single won engagement often meant you taking the stock. In this regard, I still see brawl being fun to play, but simply for different reasons. Therefore, it appeals to a different crowd.

Overall, from the information released and seeing the game I think this could become a much improved brawl metagame instead of simply a successor to smash64/melee. The ledge mechanics are vastly different from before with invincibility be reduced the higher up in damage you take. Therefore, I expect with some several months of play ssb4 will become a much improved brawl game. However, who knows if another character like MK might show-up and shatter the gameplay.

 

[nessokman]

You don't see complaints in KIU.
...Well, from the lesser-skilled anyway.

Of course, all there is on uprising's multiplayer is a free for all and team matches. You get randomly paired with players, but there is so much chaos going on that nobody is singled out.

 

[Light-Kratos]

I sorta like the game so far (I loved Brawl). It's slightly faster, which is fine for me. There's no bad mechanics like L-cancelling, although they could have reduced landing lag.

I'm only worried about the low % grab combo who seem to have disappear. HBox couldn't do gonzo combos (Fthrow Uair) or Dthrow -> anything. Ken couldn't regrab or Fair after a Fthrow / Dthrow either, which is a shame. Anyone playing the game can confirm there are at least some low % grab combos like that?

 

[Rhubarbo]

This intermediate/amateur PM match between Kirby and ZSS is more entertaining than the SSB4 gf between two highly skilled players: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKZ1ZGNpa7c

In the words of Mango, lamow!

 

[chipz]

This intermediate/amateur PM match between Kirby and ZSS is more entertaining than the SSB4 gf between two highly skilled players: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKZ1ZGNpa7c

In the words of Mango, lamow!

seems like you were trying to get views for a pretty mediocre game of PM
and I just gave you one

 

[xLemmy_KoopaX]

This intermediate/amateur PM match between Kirby and ZSS is more entertaining than the SSB4 gf between two highly skilled players: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKZ1ZGNpa7c

In the words of Mango, lamow!

I don't feel the same excitement I had when watching the Invitational.
Besides... It's still in beta, and for that development stadium, it looks great.
And I really want that "bla bla bla it isn't meele lol bad" stuff to end.
This new game takes the best from everything imo.

 

[HMWii22]

Pretty disappointing event in a number of different ways for me. Might still get the 3DS version because it's portable but other than that I see no reason I'd want to get into this game.

 

[Reoyoshi8]

I'm enjoying all I see so far and this is shaping to be an enjoyable set of games to keep me going till Smash 6.

 

[Chimera]

I think the game looks fantastic. And I'm going to be frank here, but if you immediately dismiss the game based on changes to the mechanics, you're a fraud. You can't claim to be competitive player and then whine in the corner because the creator changed things. Street Fighter IV plays VERY differently than Street Fighter III. Guess what? People play the hell out of it. Marvel vs. Capcom 3 plays differently than Marvel vs. Capcom 2. Guess what? People play the hell out of it. I get Brawl had some mechanics that really hindered competitive play, namely tripping and MetaKnight, but unless there's something like those things in this new game (which, so far there is no evidence of), I see no reason not to be excited for the game.

Also, one more note on dismissing the game right now. Y'all understand that y'all saw a pre-release game, with an extremely limited roster, played by players who had less than a day to play? We didn't pick up Melee immediately and start doing advanced wavedashing techniques. We learned, after much practice. You need to give the game the same chance.

 

[Reoyoshi8]

I think the game looks fantastic. And I'm going to be frank here, but if you immediately dismiss the game based on changes to the mechanics, you're a fraud. You can't claim to be competitive player and then whine in the corner because the creator changed things. Street Fighter IV plays VERY differently than Street Fighter III. Guess what? People play the hell out of it. Marvel vs. Capcom 3 plays differently than Marvel vs. Capcom 2. Guess what? People play the hell out of it. I get Brawl had some mechanics that really hindered competitive play, namely tripping and MetaKnight, but unless there's something like those things in this new game (which, so far there is no evidence of), I see no reason not to be excited for the game.

Also, one more note on dismissing the game right now. Y'all understand that y'all saw a pre-release game, with an extremely limited roster, played by players who had less than a day to play? We didn't pick up Melee immediately and start doing advanced wavedashing techniques. We learned, after much practice. You need to give the game the same chance.

...let's wait and see.

 

[Ulevo]

I think the game looks fantastic. And I'm going to be frank here, but if you immediately dismiss the game based on changes to the mechanics, you're a fraud.

And you're an air head? The mechanics and their interactions with the characters are the only thing that matter from the competitive perspective.

You can't claim to be competitive player and then whine in the corner because the creator removed a lot of things.

There you go friend. You had a typo here but I fixed it for you.

 

[GhettoPlab]

And you're an air head? The mechanics and their interactions with the characters are the only thing that matter from the competitive perspective.



There you go friend. You had a typo here but I fixed it for you.

Can you taste the salt? LOL so explain why you wanted a Melee reskin.

 

[Levingy]

I feel the game is not as good as melee, but maybe better than Brawl. I'm still excited about it, because we do not know what kind of advance techniques will be found, and which character is how good etc. I enjoy very much the process of finding new advance techniques. Now that we have seen there aren't really many old advance techniques, I'm pretty sure new ones will come, we just need to find those. I'm also interested in how the new ledge mechanics will change the meta-game. You cannot edgehog someone, but will people still try to abuse the edge? If you get immortability from the edge and it lasts long enough, I think the edge can be still used in edgeguarding. One can jump to the edge just before the opponent comes, take immortability, and hit the opponent.

One thing makes a big difference to me. That is netplay. If the netplay is as bad as it was with Brawl, I probably won't touch it. But if it is better, I might buy this game even if it would be only as good as Brawl is.

 

[Vkrm]

Can you taste the salt? LOL so explain why you wanted a Melee reskin.

Yeah, wanting reskinned melee means you're stuck in the past. You should be happy with this brawl reskin we're getting.

 

[Joe73191]

Wii Fit Trainer fell like a feather, she was so floaty. Movement looked very restricted. Lag after grabs looked big. Looked like you could attack out of hit stun to cancel it early. Looked like Brawl without tripping. I'm gonna play it today to make sure but I'm not getting my hopes up.

 

[Moon Monkey]

I can already say that this will have one huge advantage over Melee: Balance. Dunno about you, but I'd like to see more then the same five characters used. Want proof?

According with an interview with Sakurai that's happening at this very moment, Sakurai said all balancing in Melee was done himself. Brawl got four graders alongside Sakurai, but they weren't incredibly skilled and had too much bias. Now SSB4 has twelve, more experienced testers. Even better, balance patches are possible.

This. All of it.

Look, I love many of the features and techniques implemented in Melee; but the reason why I'm gravitating to a game like PM than Melee these days is because of the wider viable character pool.

As of right now, whatever tier list we make is silly. We only have a DAY's worth of hands-on experience on a DEMO for a game that isn't even FINAL.

 

[HeroMystic]

On the topic of 0 to Deaths.

I'm convinced they're inherently bad for competitive gameplay. As a person who dabbles into Anime fighters from time to time, the biggest complaint I've seen from the Blazblue community is Kokonoe's Blackhole combos that can spell death to the majority of the cast. It can also be done on block due to one of Distortions forcing the opponent out of their grabs. So the only choice for the majority of characters is to Burst or to use a Distortion that gives invincibility frames.

A very small number of characters are able to weave out of the blockstrings before the Black Hole setup is complete. But if none of those options exist, the only options that exist is "Don't get Cornered", which is the equivalent to our "Don't get grabbed" phrase. Nevertheless, in Version 1.1, Arcsys nerfed Kokonoe's setups which makes her death combo impossible. I believe even if there are options against 0-to-Death Combos, they shouldn't inherently exist because the meta becomes driven on who can avoid these death combos. It's exciting when someone does avoid it, but when they don't it's just becomes bland.

 

[Fortress]

Project M player here, here's a random thought I had. Trying to have some objectivity here, and not jump on the "it's not fast enough, combos don't exist, mid-tier Fox" bandwagon.

High hitstun and Brawl-like knockback so far make for a sluggish (but not quite Brawl-sluggish) 1v1 kind of scenario, but most throws and attacks (barring Fox U-Smash among a couple of others) seem pretty meaty. Made me think of doubles. Launching speeds seem really slow when compared to PM and Melee (not much into Brawl, so I'm not sure how it compares in that regard), so I figured that with the combination of heavy hits, high knockback, but lower launching speeds, that bouncing enemies off of one another for your teammates would prove to be a better doubles setting than even in Melee, as if the game was geared for it? Smash 4 seems slowed down enough to the point where Doubles could be more-easily followed, not nearly as crazy and haphazard as it tends to sometimes feel. Obviously the game seems to be geared for four players, so, who knows. Maybe team battle will make a huge comeback with Smash 4?

tl;dr: Complaints about followups being too hard or plain 'gone' due to high KB, but slower launching speeds and slower overall pace might be neat for doubles play.

Now, take that any way you would like, but I feel like Doubles play could actually be played at a pace that's not break-neck fast ala Melee, but doesn't have the insane longevity of Brawl, either. So you get some doubles play that's slowed down to the point where it's easier to manage and watch, but doesn't wind up with characters lasting into 200% constantly.

Non-objective bit: I'm personally not too thrilled about not having a lot of the tech that I'm used to relying on, but the doubles gameplay that I imagine Smash 4 supporting might not call for it, which is just fine by me. It's not the 1v1 game I'd ever really play, but Hell, dubs might turn out to be a blast.

Srs. Any thoughts?

 

[hariooo]

On the topic of 0 to Deaths.

I'm convinced they're inherently bad for competitive gameplay. As a person who dabbles into Anime fighters from time to time, the biggest complaint I've seen from the Blazblue community is Kokonoe's Blackhole combos that can spell death to the majority of the cast. It can also be done on block due to one of Distortions forcing the opponent out of their grabs. So the only choice for the majority of characters is to Burst or to use a Distortion that gives invincibility frames.

A very small number of characters are able to weave out of the blockstrings before the Black Hole setup is complete. But if none of those options exist, the only options that exist is "Don't get Cornered", which is the equivalent to our "Don't get grabbed" phrase. Nevertheless, in Version 1.1, Arcsys nerfed Kokonoe's setups which makes her death combo impossible. I believe even if there are options against 0-to-Death Combos, they shouldn't inherently exist because the meta becomes driven on who can avoid these death combos. It's exciting when someone does avoid it, but when they don't it's just becomes bland.

Aside from Wobbling, which deserves its own discussion elsewhere, how does any of this have to do with Smash? Unless high-level melee became saturated with 0-deaths when I turned around for a second, I don't really understand why people keep harping on it. Does a Falcon that makes a 33% hard read 3 times in a row to take a stock break the game or something?

 

[ProjectAngel]

You're making judgments based on a demo of a game that ISN'T EVEN FINISHED.

The developers still have a lot to do between now and full release. They're even taking feedback from various players, even the invitational players.

 

[Fortress]

I'm still going to try and keep an open mind about Sma4sh doubles. Where most people are going to say "Fox's shine is so useless, so much endlag", I'm going to say that it almost calls for a teammate to be there to make the followup with you. Seriously, I feel like this game could seal the deal for team play.

 

[Gameboi834]

You can play a match with Sonic, Mega Man, Mario, and Pac-Man.

If that doesn't make you happy, in any way, then I don't think anything will.

 

[Joe73191]

Im excited to see the final product. If they really take advice from the participants the game will probably get a million times better than even what we saw last night.

 

[Teran]

If Nintendo sincerely follow the advice of the competitive players like is being indicated, we may just have a great end product. Not too thrilled with a bunch of the changes though.

 

[HeroMystic]

Aside from Wobbling, which deserves its own discussion elsewhere, how does any of this have to do with Smash? Unless high-level melee became saturated with 0-deaths when I turned around for a second, I don't really understand why people keep harping on it. Does a Falcon that makes a 33% hard read 3 times in a row to take a stock break the game or something?

I actually just wanted to state my opinion on 0-death's influence on a metagame, but to bring it full circle...

While I don't fully subscribe to Sakurai's reasoning, 0-deaths are just an example of what he wants to prevent to make everything look like they're in the realm of possibility for everyone, casuals included. So despite Melee and Project: M being fun games with a lot of depth, they're heavily reliant on techniques that are not shown within the game. This means a person who is new to the game would have no idea these exist from the game itself, and can serve as a demoralizer when they get wrecked.

Wavedashing, L-Cancel, Moonwalking, etc. are all techs that aren't taught within the game but rather in the Competitive Community which serves as 1% of the fanbase.

 

[Doser]

I think the game looks fantastic. And I'm going to be frank here, but if you immediately dismiss the game based on changes to the mechanics, you're a fraud. You can't claim to be competitive player and then whine in the corner because the creator changed things.

I'm afraid I'm not aware of a good reason to dismiss a game OTHER than the mechanics. Surely it would be dumb to dismiss a game based wholly on something superficial like the art style or say the menu layout, but the mechanics of the game are the polar opposite of superficial. Having an issue with the mechanics of game is having an issue with the entire essence of the game, and so I think it is a highly legitimate reason to not be excited about a game. After all what is a game without the rules that define it?

Street Fighter IV plays VERY differently than Street Fighter III. Guess what? People play the hell out of it. Marvel vs. Capcom 3 plays differently than Marvel vs. Capcom 2. Guess what? People play the hell out of it. I get Brawl had some mechanics that really hindered competitive play, namely tripping and MetaKnight, but unless there's something like those things in this new game (which, so far there is no evidence of), I see no reason not to be excited for the game.

These examples only show one thing: change is not inherently bad for a series. I have not seen anyone in this thread (or elsewhere honestly) demanding 'melee 2.0' or similar. Sure there are aspects of Melee people would like to see, but I don't think that would qualify as anything close to 'melee 2.0'.

It isn't the existence of changes that has people let down, it is what the changes are.

Also, one more note on dismissing the game right now. Y'all understand that y'all saw a pre-release game, with an extremely limited roster, played by players who had less than a day to play? We didn't pick up Melee immediately and start doing advanced wavedashing techniques. We learned, after much practice. You need to give the game the same chance.

There is a big difference between what we knew in 2001 about these types of games and what we know now in 2014. Clearly we have not fully sussed out this game, but this doesn't mean we know nothing. It does not take years upon years to determine if a game will be fast or not. This was exactly the same narrative given when Brawl came out.

Can you taste the salt? LOL so explain why you wanted a Melee reskin.

No one has said they wanted or expected a Melee reskin in this thread, so I'm not sure who you are referring to.

 

[Fortress]

IWavedashing, L-Cancel, Moonwalking, etc. are all techs that aren't taught within the game but rather in the Competitive Community which serves as 1% of the fanbase.

Lag-cancelling is in Smash 64's handbook. Also pretty sure that the competitive scene makes up more than just 1% of the fanbase.

 

[HeroMystic]

Lag-cancelling is in Smash 64's handbook. Also pretty sure that the competitive scene makes up more than just 1% of the fanbase.

Smash64's L-Cancel is different from Melee's, but beyond that I doubt the majority of people actually bothered to read that.

Also I was making hyperbole.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Lag-cancelling is in Smash 64's handbook. Also pretty sure that the competitive scene makes up more than just 1% of the fanbase.

Fanbase, yes. Smash players? Eh... not sure. Brawl sold 12.16 million copes. Are there more than 121,600 competative players?

 

[Fortress]

Smash64's L-Cancel is different from Melee's, but beyond that I doubt the majority of people actually bothered to read that.

Also I was making hyperbole.

I agree with most of the things you had to say on why these insane 0-Deaths ought to be removed, so that the casual player doesn't get stomped by the more knowledgeable player, but really, at any level of play, isn't that what it comes down to? The more knowledgeable player is the one who comes out on top? Not to say that something inescapable like wobbling, or D3's D-throw locks are necessary or fair.

To paraphrase Milktea, Smash has the duality of being a party game and a competitive game. Granted, she was talking about Melee specifically, but I think that advanced tech can exist in a casual environment. My friends and I grew up having tons of fun with Melee, and we didn't even know shield-grabbing was a thing.

Fanbase, yes. Smash players? Eh... not sure. Brawl sold 12.16 million copes. Are there more than 121,600 competative players?

Probably not, but that doesn't make the competitive scene small by any means. How many of those 12.16 million owners are still playing the game? That's something you can't put a figure on.

 

[shininimuss]

Double Uair > Utilt. That was clean.

Also saw Kirby do Dair > U tilt > Bair that seemed to connect fully.

wft recovered. the player using her just didn't do anything after recovering the only part of that that
was a combo was up tilt to up air.

 

[Ulevo]

Fanbase, yes. Smash players? Eh... not sure. Brawl sold 12.16 million copes. Are there more than 121,600 competative players?

Considering EVO twtich had 140K+ viewers, yes.

 

[Doser]

Fanbase, yes. Smash players? Eh... not sure. Brawl sold 12.16 million copes. Are there more than 121,600 competative players?

It's not merely the number of people who are going to tournaments, but rather the amount of people that are reminded of Super Smash Bros. because it's on the front page of twitch, or siglemic/cosmo/<speedrunners> are playing and talking about melee, or that it's a main event at MLG etc. I don't think it's easy to accurately quantify how much the competitive community has helped Smash stay relevant, but I think it's undeniable that it is important.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

That wasn't my question guys. I simply wanted to just see how big the smash competetive scene was compared to overall sales. Frankly, I'd say an easy majority of smash players don't care about being super competetive. As for twitch, let's say 100,000 people tune in to watch a match. Congrats. You just got 1% of the overall smash population together. Sure, you are keeping the game relevant and that's great, not to mention most developers would kill for those numbers, but you have to accept that for most people playing the game it means nothing.

 

[HeroMystic]

I agree with most of the things you had to say on why these insane 0-Deaths ought to be removed, so that the casual player doesn't get stomped by the more knowledgeable player, but really, at any level of play, isn't that what it comes down to? The more knowledgeable player is the one who comes out on top? Not to say that something inescapable like wobbling, or D3's D-throw locks are necessary or fair.

To paraphrase Milktea, Smash has the duality of being a party game and a competitive game. Granted, she was talking about Melee specifically, but I think that advanced tech can exist in a casual environment. My friends and I grew up having tons of fun with Melee, and we didn't even know shield-grabbing was a thing.

I agree completely, which is why I stated previously that I don't fully subscribe to Sakurai's philosophy. I can agree with him in the fact that Smash has always been an easily accessible game, so placing barriers for competitive play such as L-Cancel only serves as a detriment to that accessibility.

Beyond that, I find Sakurai's logic is skewed because there is no way that a player who just picked up the game wouldn't get demolished by a tournament-level player, even if you limited options as far as they could go. That's just the nature of competition. In other words, it's slippery slope logic, and if he goes too far it could neuter the game entirely.

 

[Renji64]

I think the game looks fantastic. And I'm going to be frank here, but if you immediately dismiss the game based on changes to the mechanics, you're a fraud. You can't claim to be competitive player and then whine in the corner because the creator changed things. Street Fighter IV plays VERY differently than Street Fighter III. Guess what? People play the hell out of it. Marvel vs. Capcom 3 plays differently than Marvel vs. Capcom 2. Guess what? People play the hell out of it. I get Brawl had some mechanics that really hindered competitive play, namely tripping and MetaKnight, but unless there's something like those things in this new game (which, so far there is no evidence of), I see no reason not to be excited for the game.

Also, one more note on dismissing the game right now. Y'all understand that y'all saw a pre-release game, with an extremely limited roster, played by players who had less than a day to play? We didn't pick up Melee immediately and start doing advanced wavedashing techniques. We learned, after much practice. You need to give the game the same chance.

Brawl movement sucked, Seems smash 4 is the same. It seems like brawl 2.0 so far. Slow Paced Denfesive gameplay is not fun or hype to me i was hoping smash 4 would be good for people who like melee or p:m as well.

 

[Fortress]

Beyond that, I find Sakurai's logic is skewed because there is no way that a player who just picked up the game wouldn't get demolished by a tournament-level player, even if you limited options as far as they could go. That's just the nature of competition.

That's exactly how I see it. "Dash dancing gives a player who knows about it an advantage over one who doesn't at a tournament, so I'll remove it." ...okay? It's still going to come down to who knows the most after that... Besides, players who are competing in the first place are just going to pick up that technique that bested them, which is part of the fun and the experience. Some tech isn't quite ideal (like L-cancelling, a necessary evil), but some does a lot of good without much effort (ala dash dancing).

And, in the end, it's the competitors who the developers are going to hear about in the long-run when it comes to the serious, nitty-gritty stuff like "it would be better if X mechanic was changed in Y manner", not the "beat-the-game-and-move-on" kind of casual player who plays it for, like, a week. Not that that kind of player is bad, it's their money that lets us get the most out of our game.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think it's pretty ****ing ******** to judge how a game will be played at high levels based on one day of footage and a grand finals set between characters that are campy in nature also on day one. The Nintendo tournament had too many stocks, too, should have been 3, no more.

I mean, have you ever looked at day one Brawl footage or especially early Melee footage? **** makes me want to cry. And you ****ters played the hell out of Melee before you even knew what wavedashing was.

No one knows what any of their buttons do yet. I'm not saying there are no issues with Smash 4, but the entire tournament was laden with missed follow-up opportunities, poor spacing, bad technique, whiffed smash attacks (seriously, how many times did you see someone fsmash in the opposite direction they probably wanted?), and more, and to top it off, the ruleset was really dumb.

I'm not saying Smash 4 has no problems. I'm not saying it isn't more like Brawl than Melee. But there's room in the smash series for a game like Smash 4. We'll have combos, fast movement, earlier kills, less random elements. Edgeguarding (not ledgehogging) seems powerful, give that a couple of months to develop. There's more to consider than the raw fact of mechanical nuances not matching expectations. There could be (and are, 100%) options we aren't aware of yet.

My reservation (and there seems to have been no testing on this stuff) is shields. Brawl shields were too good, I'd like to see them reeled in somewhat.

Keep an open mind and give the game time before you completely dismiss it. If you Melee elitists want to play Melee forever then by all means do so, but at least wait until you've had a chance to sit down with the game and explore it before you condemn it. Otherwise, get ****ed.