Smash Wii U So yeah. I'm not impressed by Smash Wii U. What do you think?

[Bladeviper]

I guess it's bad to be that definitive about the final product. But even if she said that in the game's current incarnation it seems hopeless she'd probably get hate.

I got to play the game a bit more today, and i'd say it can probably work, just hit lag is obnoxious on some of the old moves, and the moves that can combo into each other seems kind of limited so it feels almost as if there are predetermined combos and other chains of moves have enough time for people to recover. And i still think zoning is very strong.

all that seems like it can be fixed though at least, and for zoning it does look strong but its been strong in other fighters too so its a style one has to learn to play against

 

[smashbroskilla]

Watching Hungrybox VS chubbs(was that a blue nylon tucked in shirt?!) was so boring. My friend and I went downstairs and clicked it on for the first time right when they were starting grand finals. It was some of the most unhype **** I've seen. I felt like I was watching one of those metaknight mirror matches of brawl that I usually fall asleep to. I'll still purchase it but I don't see Nintendo/Sakurai/Namco changing game mechanics that will make this game more competetive in the tournament scene. I wanted it so bad to replace melee since melee is old and the colors looked washed out to today's HD standards. I felt like this was a continuation of Brawl.

No wavedashing, cancelling moves, dash dancing, everyones moves take the time of a full jump to recover from.

 

[Bladeviper]

Watching Hungrybox VS chubbs(was that a blue nylon tucked in shirt?!) was so boring. My friend and I went downstairs and clicked it on for the first time right when they were starting grand finals. It was some of the most unhype **** I've seen. I felt like I was watching one of those metaknight mirror matches of brawl that I usually fall asleep to. I'll still purchase it but I don't see Nintendo/Sakurai/Namco changing game mechanics that will make this game more competetive in the tournament scene. I wanted it so bad to replace melee since melee is old and the colors looked washed out to today's HD standards. I felt like this was a continuation of Brawl.

No wavedashing, cancelling moves, dash dancing, everyones moves take the time of a full jump to recover from.

I think the keep away game was just because it was a terrible match up for kirby. I think its way way too early to tell how the meta will fully shape

 

[rawrimamonster]

I think the keep away game was just because it was a terrible match up for kirby. I think its way way too early to tell how the meta will fully shape

That's what everyone said about Brawl, Fool me once etc. I and lots of others have been playing Smash at a competitive level for many many years, we know the mechanics of the series in and out even if it's a new game. This is going to be brawl 2.0 with a few more combos, and thats enough to keep me away. I'll reserve absolute full judgement until we see a finished product and I actually try it, but I'm not getting my hopes up, just as I didn't before the tournament. With modern casual babby catering Nintendo, you're only setting yourself up for a fall.

 

[SSBBDaisy]

This is what I really wanted to reply to.

I think the irony of this entire thing is that while a lot of players accuse Melee for being a game centred around glitches and exploits, the contrary was quite true in regards to Brawls life as a competitive title. A large part of what gave Brawl any depth was the fact that it was littered with glitches, game oversights, poor design, and problems that led to a layer of depth and learning that was required in order to remain competitive. DACUS, grab release mechanics, momentum cancelling aerial attacks, Shuttle Loop refreshes, infinites. These things were a part of the competitive learning experience, regardless if their inclusions were healthy for the game overall, or not.

I suspect that not only are most of these things cleansed from Smash Wii U, but that the game largely overall will be quite bug free. Or at least comparatively speaking. This is funny because while this would normally be a good thing in the context of proper game design, it actually detracts from the competitive learning curve and what made Brawl interesting for the players who enjoyed it. On top of all this, they're removing mechanics that Brawl had organically, like SDI.

My impression of Smash Wii U is that it is literally Brawl 2. It is a pure successor to Brawl in that regard. However, it is seemingly going to be a watered down version of Brawl, for whatever its worth.

This is actually wonderful for the casual players because I honestly believe Brawl was kinda a piece of trash casually speaking. I mean, didn't stop people from enjoying it, and people feel differently than I do. But I think this is a huge step up. And for the people who played Brawl competitively I'm sure they'll enjoy this to varying degrees. For the people who appreciated deeper gameplay though, I think they're not going to find satisfaction with this.

I'm glad there is someone that understands what Smash Bros for Wii U and 3DS are acutally looking like through observance from the DEMO.

Although, don't lose hope. Apparently, hes collecting suggestions from the Invitational players. Hopefully, it will mean something in the end. Also, just to point out first brawl demo was very similar to Melee so smash 4 could end up turning into it's own thing (hopefully something for the better). The Demo now just makes it seems like it's headed for the worst.


If you want sources to some of the things I'll post them when I find them. I've been looking everywhere for smash 4 info. XP

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

 

[meowth_]

I have always been an avid brawl player because of the wifi capabilities that brawl had (I really wanted to play a lot and play a lot of different people). I went to tournaments, played wifi every day, played against friends a couple times per week.

This game looks exactly like brawl. There is nothing that I saw in this game that supports the hopes that many of us had for a brawl and melee hybrid. Sure, it's impossible for those guys to give us exactly what we want or include all of the features, but this (from the e3 trailer) looks like a brawl game ported to 3ds and wiiu.

It appears as if the engine that is being used in this game is the same one that was used in brawl, although I could be wrong. Generally speaking, however, I am left to assume that most of the programming for character interactions was stripped completely from brawl, as were character models, item models, stages, etc.

We will have to wait it out and get feedback from others before we can bash the game or love the game. To be honest, I am not hyped for smash 4 anymore after the video because it looks so similar to brawl with the physics and graphics that I was completely off-put. I was going to purchase a wiiu mk8 bundle a few days ago but now I 100% not buying one until I can explore the game on my own.

 

[Kokusho]

The thing to considere also is that right now the casual market isn't buying Wii U, and it's not for lack of casual softwares.
They already have a product for thoses mid casual/party gamer, its name is Mario Kart 8 and its design from the start to be a bit unfair, that's how the game works since forever and that's what everyone love about it.
They also have Super Mario World 3D which is in my opinion (I have it) more a party game than a plateform game (seriously you could do the whole game with the simple jump only).
If MK8 and SMW3D doesn't sells Wii U to thoses peoples do they really think a casual focused Smash4 will ?!
The Wii U is ALREADY the home of party games ! We don't need another, especially when they have, instead, a golden opportunity to sell to a arguably smaller, but also much more passionnate, and most likely UNTAPPED audience: the competitive / hardcore one, us.

 

[SSBBDaisy]

I wonder when sakurai saw that back stage if he was thinking to himself "Awe snap I forgot Mario uair can auto cancel like that, I'll make sure to fix that".

 

[Bladeviper]

The thing to considere also is that right now the casual market isn't buying Wii U, and it's not for lack of casual softwares.
They already have a product for thoses mid casual/party gamer, its name is Mario Kart 8 and its design from the start to be a bit unfair, that's how the game works since forever and that's what everyone love about it.
They also have Super Mario World 3D which is in my opinion (I have it) more a party game than a plateform game (seriously you could do the whole game with the simple jump only).
If MK8 and SMW3D doesn't sells Wii U to thoses peoples do they really think a casual focused Smash4 will ?!
The Wii U is ALREADY the home of party games ! We don't need another, especially when they have, instead, a golden opportunity to sell to a arguably smaller, but also much more passionnate, and most likely UNTAPPED audience: the competitive / hardcore one, us.

smash has been a system seller for a long time now, why would they not make it appeal to as many people as possible, it would be a flawed business plan

 

[Icy_Eagle]

Then let's give an example, shall we? I watched the early video of PSABR when it came out, and I said, "I don't think this game will work. Over-reliance on Final Smash-esque attacks means you will kill everyone in only three different ways every time and makes the gameplay boring."

Was that hard? Less time spent on it than her, exponentially more valuable.

Congratulations, you've constructed a comment that won't upset hypersensitive people on a completely different discussion forum than you originally posted on? I mean hell, what she wrote isn't even offensive to begin with, she's just sharing that she's not too optimistic about the game and hopes the release of smash 4 won't impede her ability to play PM

Oh and how on earth are you determining your post took less time than hers?

 

[xLemmy_KoopaX]

OK I made a mistake here. Ignore.

 

[[TSON]]

However you want to spell it out TSON.

Now you're more familiar with frame data then I am. What are some moves I should test on shield.

My point is that this game could be complete trash and still get 9/10 ratings and sell millions. Sakurai cares about our opinions but just bc this game is a (potential) bad competitive game doesn't mean it's doomed or Sakurai has to listen to us.

Anyway, big things for on shield will be multi hit aerials like fox drill and rosalina uair. Also try mac's smashes. they have kinda low endlag and high damage so they will be good indicators of how shield stun is scaling. outside of that, I think we got a good look from the invitational footage.

 

[SSBBDaisy]

As long as you can't infinitley combo with this, I think it even looks pretty fun lol.
Mario is finally capable of something instead of being a master of none. Yet I don't know if this can be made broken in other ways.

You do know you can do this in brawl with Mario now, right?

When I participated in a brawl low tier tournament a long time ago Ryo (the ike main) used Mario and did Uair strings to me.

I'm not kidding with what I said. Sakurai is already removing auto cancels. Go watch CT Chibo's video of him using samus. He times everything right with her like he should to get auto canceled missles and dairs but it doesn't work because sakurai is doing away with auto cancels.

One of the Invitational Players suggested that there would be aerials with less landing lag. (he said this instead of auto cancels cause hes a Melee player). Although, I'm pretty sure he meant to say L-Canceling.

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

Congratulations, you've constructed a comment that won't upset hypersensitive people on a completely different discussion forum than you originally posted on? I mean hell, what she wrote isn't even offensive to begin with, she's just sharing that she's not too optimistic about the game and hopes the release of smash 4 won't impede her ability to play PM

Well why don't we also throw manners and etiquette out the window too because only hypersensitive people really care about them? I try to think about what I'm going to post on the Internet for a little longer than 2 minutes because I know it can go anywhere, and it's not exactly a brain-taxing affair.

And I didn't say it was offensive, because it's not. I'm just saying it was pointless.

Oh and how on earth are you determining your post took less time than hers?

No, I'm saying that I spent less time on my respective target of criticism than she did.

But you know what? I've said my point in the matter: I think she contributed nothing, and that's all I meant to convey. I'm more interested in seeing what people will have to say about the demo access that transpires over the 10th and 14th. If we're lucky, one of those might be next to empty, and its sole occupants might get some time to review some of the game's fundamentals for us.

 

[meowth_]

yeah i see nothing new with mario in this game, he can do all of that and more in brawl. he's one of the most combo blessed chars in brawl

 

[Giygacoal]

One of the Invitational Players suggested that there would be aerials with less landing lag. (he said this instead of auto cancels cause hes a Melee player). Although, I'm pretty sure he meant to say L-Canceling.

Not necessarily. It's mechanically possible to have aerials with inherently less landing lag.

 

[SSBBDaisy]

Not necessarily. It's mechanically possible to have aerials with inherently less landing lag.

yes I know this and you can see it in the demo.


For example, Rosalina's bair recovers quicker from lag after landing than her fair.

So I don't know why the Invitational player suggested that there aerials with less landing lag when it's kind of already there. I think he meant something like L-canceling. Maybe he was nervous or something.

 

[Giygacoal]

yes I know this and you can see it in the demo.


For example, Rosalina's bair recovers quicker from lag after landing than her fair.

So I don't know why the Invitational player suggested that there aerials with less landing lag when it's kind of already there. I think he meant something like L-canceling. Maybe he was nervous or something.

Allow me to clarify. It's possible he specifically wanted L-canceling, but I'm saying he also could have meant just faster aerials in general (which is the purpose of L-canceling). From a game design point of view, L-canceling isn't objectively speaking the best idea ever; for the most part we're just trained to want it because it gives us the faster effect that we actually want. L canceling is almost never situational. (Of course there will be a bunch of players who disagree with me on this, but look at traditional fighters- none of them need L canceling because the aerials don't have laggy landing.)

 

[Terrazi Terrajin]

It's as boring to watch as brawl right now, which is not good at all.
Hopefully Ridley gets revealed as playable and CF gets an overhaul, those are the only 2 things that will make me buy this game at this point.

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

It's as boring to watch as brawl right now, which is not good at all.
Hopefully Ridley gets revealed as playable and CF gets an overhaul, those are the only 2 things that will make me buy this game at this point.

I wouldn't count on the first option. I think our options are all but exhausted when it comes to a possible Ridley reveal.

The second option is possible though. A more functional Captain Falcon this time around is nothing but good.

 

[Giygacoal]

It's as boring to watch as brawl right now, which is not good at all.
Hopefully Ridley gets revealed as playable and CF gets an overhaul, those are the only 2 things that will make me buy this game at this point.

Ridley would only make sense in a fast paced game...

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Can you taste the salt? LOL so explain why you wanted a Melee reskin.

The fact that things were removed from the game and the desire to have "Melee 2.0" are not correlated, it's just a fact of the matter.

 

[Ingulit]

Watching Hungrybox VS chubbs(was that a blue nylon tucked in shirt?!) was so boring. My friend and I went downstairs and clicked it on for the first time right when they were starting grand finals. It was some of the most unhype **** I've seen. I felt like I was watching one of those metaknight mirror matches of brawl that I usually fall asleep to. I'll still purchase it but I don't see Nintendo/Sakurai/Namco changing game mechanics that will make this game more competetive in the tournament scene. I wanted it so bad to replace melee since melee is old and the colors looked washed out to today's HD standards. I felt like this was a continuation of Brawl.

No wavedashing, cancelling moves, dash dancing, everyones moves take the time of a full jump to recover from.

This argument that having all those techs somehow makes high-stakes Smash look any different has been invalid since the Melee Apex 2012 Grand Finals, and I can't believe it's still being pushed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z07CzxeXMVs

In every Smash title, high-stakes tournament play revolves around playing safe, as shown by how similar the Grand Finals match of the Invitational is to this GF of the very game that has your coveted Wavedashing/L-Canceling/Dash Dancing. The fundamental mechanics of every Smash title rewards the idea of "don't get hit" almost above all else, and having a few extra ATs will never change how important zoning and patient, calculated play is at high level. If you prefer watching players faceroll rather than actually plan out/think about what they're doing, that's all fine and good, but don't expect to see that during the Grand Finals of a tournament being watched by hundreds of thousands of people.

 

[Vintage Creep]

peachyhime from the invitational.

Pathetic.

 

[Starphoenix]

Guys/gals, we get that PeachyHime is being a little spoiled, but let's not turn this into a continuous stream of pot shots at her for her opinion. Just move on to one of the many other gripes.

 

[D-idara]

The Grand Finals were boring to watch...you're being sarcastic, right?

 

[smashbroskilla]

This argument that having all those techs somehow makes high-stakes Smash look any different has been invalid since the Melee Apex 2012 Grand Finals, and I can't believe it's still being pushed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z07CzxeXMVs

In every Smash title, high-stakes tournament play revolves around playing safe, as shown by how similar the Grand Finals match of the Invitational is to this GF of the very game that has your coveted Wavedashing/L-Canceling/Dash Dancing. The fundamental mechanics of every Smash title rewards the idea of "don't get hit" almost above all else, and having a few extra ATs will never change how important zoning and patient, calculated play is at high level. If you prefer watching players faceroll rather than actually plan out/think about what they're doing during the Grand Finals of a tournament being watched by hundreds of thousands of people, then I hate to say it, but Smash just isn't for you.

But they use all those tech's I said in the vid you linked. How can you deny that? Sure the "don't get hit" is still applied but all those tools I said were used. I don't prefer players to faceroll through anyone. What I do prefer is watching a double falcon knee off the edge because someone didn't DI right. I prefer hype movements of people doing 5-6 hit combos with moments of dominating rushdown tactics.

 

[Calmsmasher]

looks like the demo is using a modified version of brawls engine just like how brawl's demo used a modified melee's engine.
I'm gonna need to see the final product seeing how brawl ended up being to properly judge.

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

The Grand Finals were boring to watch...you're being sarcastic, right?

It's a fair criticism. As an avid fan of competitive fighting games, I don't think it was exactly the cream of the crop, but then again I wasn't expecting it to be SF4.

So what if they thought it was boring? You can take value out of different aspects in a game. People often get cranky at people for spamming Hadoukens in fights, others respect it because it creates spacing for their characters. All depends on how you view it, really.

 

[Empyrean]

We probably haven't even seen how the new engine works as of yet, seeing as it's likely littered with bugs and flaws.

 

[hariooo]

This argument that having all those techs somehow makes high-stakes Smash look any different has been invalid since the Melee Apex 2012 Grand Finals, and I can't believe it's still being pushed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z07CzxeXMVs

In every Smash title, high-stakes tournament play revolves around playing safe, as shown by how similar the Grand Finals match of the Invitational is to this GF of the very game that has your coveted Wavedashing/L-Canceling/Dash Dancing. The fundamental mechanics of every Smash title rewards the idea of "don't get hit" almost above all else, and having a few extra ATs will never change how important zoning and patient, calculated play is at high level. If you prefer watching players faceroll rather than actually plan out/think about what they're doing during the Grand Finals of a tournament being watched by hundreds of thousands of people, then I hate to say it, but Smash just isn't for you.

So anyone who likes watching aggressive Melee (e.g. Mango) actually shouldn't bother with at all with Smash because of a single GF with defensive characters two years ago. You'd think a mod would have more tact.

The Grand Finals were boring to watch...you're being sarcastic, right?

Oh I wasn't particularly convinced by D1 screaming "FOR JUSTICE" like the audience was 5 years old every few moments but YMMV.

 

[Terrazi Terrajin]

I wouldn't count on the first option. I think our options are all but exhausted when it comes to a possible Ridley reveal.

The second option is possible though. A more functional Captain Falcon this time around is nothing but good.

I'd say Ridley is still all too likely, you don't ****-tease a stage hazard for /this/ long. Something is up.

Whether CF is redesigned or not is a much more debatable thing in my eyes.

 

[D-idara]

So anyone who likes watching aggressive Melee (e.g. Mango) actually shouldn't bother with at all with Smash because of a single GF with defensive characters two years ago. You'd think a mod would have more tact.



Oh I wasn't particularly convinced by D1 screaming "FOR JUSTICE" like the audience was 5 years old every few moments but YMMV.

I loved the exchanges and the way Hungrybox managed to break through Zero's defense multiple times.

 

[SynikaL]

You'd think a mod would have more tact.

I think "sense" is the word you're looking for.

That post had none.

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

I'd say Ridley is still all too likely, you don't ****-tease a stage hazard for /this/ long. Something is up.

I'd actually like Ridley myself, at least leagues more than Pac-Man and Chorus Men anyway. If he's in then YAY! But I thought the Direct video was pretty damning, and he'll simply be a boss.

Whether CF is redesigned or not is a much more debatable thing in my eyes.

Well he can't be much worse than he was in Brawl, right? His moves all had low priority and he was generally a bad character pick.

 

[Ingulit]

EDIT: Nevermind, I don't want to cause more arguments than this board is already plagued by.

 

[hariooo]

I'd actually like Ridley myself, at least leagues more than Pac-Man and Chorus Men anyway. If he's in then YAY! But I thought the Direct video was pretty damning, and he'll simply be a boss.



Well he can't be much worse than he was in Brawl, right? His moves all had low priority and he was generally a bad character pick.

I'm not sure how they can design CF. His entire design philosophy was speed, flashy movement, and hype combos. He didn't really belong in Brawl and I don't see how he's going to play in Smash 4 unless people are satisfied that he might get an auto-canceled Uair to Uair occasionally.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

To me this game is less of a "Quick Brawl" and more of a "Slippery Melee"

 

[Saito]

I'm not gonna lie, I loved the commentary.

But let me have a go at interpreting the new game.

As of right now, which may not be the same in the future, the competitive scene seems like it will struggle due to mechanical changes of the game. From first glance, it looks similar to brawl but faster. This isn't bad. It won't have that technical depth that some people are looking for in melee. That's fine, different strokes for different folks.

However, the mechanical changes @ #HBC | Red Ryu posted, if they remain final, may be a big hindrance to the competitive community.
The options on approach have been limited and that could potentially favor more defensive play styles, but it is too early to say.


But talking about this game from the sakurai viewpoint, I can't help but feel that it's better than all the other smash games though. It looks fantastic, and while some say you can't judge it without playing it, I can look at it and really feel that it is impressive for how Sakurai views smash brothers.

-----------------------

Me personally, like I said, I don't like that dash dancing is gone, along with crouch out of a dash. Those are really good for approaching / retreating. It's like the air mobility that kirby has, but on the ground. The options are really good. I've got this weird feeling about SDI being gone, but I just don't like that the smart bombs will eat me alive in casual play. for competitive, I don't really mind that it's gone, but other people probably will.

The changes to grab are strange as well. It might be good overall, but it's bad for how the smash metagame advanced.

But if it did anything right in my opinion, it was the removal of crouch cancelling, and the ledge grab mechanics. If the top two I mentioned were still in, I could see a lot of people still picking it up competitively.