Smash Wii U So yeah. I'm not impressed by Smash Wii U. What do you think?

[Giygacoal]

It's about time people realize you will NEVER get another Melee. Mostly all of the competitive techniques from Melee were gliches and not designed to be (L-cancelling was legit). You can stay here and continue to complain about things that will not change, i will just enjoy the game. Let me say i don't miss mechanics requiring awkward and unrelated button input, to execute moves that look plainly weird.
My point is you can stay and complain, and that will not accomplish anything, or just enjoy the game. It's not Melee, it never will be Melee again. If you hate the style so much, just go play something else, and please stop complaining all the time, its getting ridiculous.

Incorrect. None of the techniques commonly used in competitive Melee are glitches.

 

[LancerStaff]

I find people saying we can properly judge a literally unstable game we've had our hands on roughly for a day ridiculous. Add in the fact Brawl underwent major rehauls between a demo and the release and Sakurai may very well be listening to the constructive feedback, people making the assumption that this will be the final game are just begging to be wrong.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

That's what everyone said about Brawl, Fool me once etc. I and lots of others have been playing Smash at a competitive level for many many years, we know the mechanics of the series in and out even if it's a new game. This is going to be brawl 2.0 with a few more combos, and thats enough to keep me away. I'll reserve absolute full judgement until we see a finished product and I actually try it, but I'm not getting my hopes up, just as I didn't before the tournament. With modern casual babby catering Nintendo, you're only setting yourself up for a fall.

I wish this wasn't true, but you're right. If only Sakurai weren't so hard-headed about this deal. He has the mindset that he wants to appeal to all fanbases, yet he doesn't try to accept suggestions from competitive players. His words tell one story, and his actions are telling another. I still have some hope things will be changed, but most likely, it isn't happening. Nevertheless, I'll still be buying this, because I love all Smash games.

 

[WinterShorts]

aMSa-Yoshi
Taj-Mewtwo
Gimpyfish-Bowser
Neo-Roy

aMSa in particular is extremely good. I think he could hold his own vs. Armada/M2K/Mango/PP/Hbox

As much as they can hold their own, In the end, who won more times? Were the times people like aMSa and Taj won a tournament or match or something even with or even come close to the number of times Mew2King or HBox won? If not, Melee is proven to be not as balanced as you think.

Brawl however, I do agree with you it's unbalanced as I said before.

Be honest, would you have cared if they hadn't have changed the physics from melee to brawl?

A little bit. I do admit I like Project M 3.02 more than Brawl, but that of course doesn't mean I hate brawl. Brawl still offers gameplay I like, something more basic instead of being comboed all over the damn place. Although you asked only to be honest, so I only say a little bit.

 

[Padô]

You know?

I had a rant all set up. I was reading all 10 (at the point of writing this) pages of this thread, and the more I read, the harder my jimmies became rustled.

Wooptybigpost.jpg.

I share similar opinion. I've lived through one Smash transition, from Melee to Brawl. And from what I remember it was really different from what we are experiencing now. I see a certain trauma from Melee fans and even Brawl fans who are still disgusted to what the game have become. But one thing for sure is, there will be haters up and down, even here in Brazil people hate new characters with passion, we should not worry about this, those guys are just a bunch of Smash lovers blinded by their likes and dislikes, and most likely will play the game anyways.

Amazing Ampharos once said in a huge ass topic that the destructive behaviour of the other smash players is what really ****s up with the game and the community, and I'm all the hatred already from those Melee fans and Brawl fans who were traumatized by previous/actual games. I hope I had the power to make all the people understand that it's a new game and we should give it a shot before we knock it.

During the transition from Melee to Brawl we had nothing to compare the new game with, it was completely new and the previous game was a flawless competitive gem. I believe we have a BIG fear that the new game become a Brawl (and I believe this fuels the hatred debate) even though we know the game will change until it's release, we just saw a stun mechanic during the Mii Fighter presentation which is really big offensive reward on the game (I really hope it gets implemented on the final version) and people looked the other way, and honestly if this isn't enough proof the the game is suceptible to changes until it's release I don't know what is.

Btw Ogre_Deity_Link, at the end of the day, we all know we are probably buying the new game and giving it a shot, if not buying at least trying to play it for some time, it has been like this before and will still be. Also, I would like to state that I have been organizing tournaments all over Brazil, I'm this community guy, and the most important part on the verge of a new game comming out is making best use of the hype from it and bringing the biggest number of new players we can to the community. The Melee fans can bash Brawl and the new Smash (and vice-versa) all they want but they aknowledge that what makes this community legit are all the players and debates, without exceptions.

Sorry about the massive wall text, kind of a rant also.

 

[-Whiplash-]

A little bit. I do admit I like Project M 3.02 more than Brawl, but that of course doesn't mean I hate brawl. Brawl still offers gameplay I like, something more basic instead of being comboed all over the damn place. Although you asked only to be honest, so I only say a little bit.

Well, I wasn't talking about whether you like brawl or not, my point wasn't that, you can like brawl all you want, it's your opinion, to be honest, I don't hate brawl either, to be honest.

My point was that if brawl was really melee 2.0 it's HIGHLY Unlikely many people would be complaining and going "They should make the game slower!' or "I hope they remove Wave dashing and L-Canceling!"

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

I think I'm just about done with this thread. It's just a negative argument between people about how Smash 4 is lackluster in mechanics and people are skipping out on it, which isn't really helping me to be excited for the new games. Amazing Ampharos made a phenomenal post about giving the game a chance and refraining from attacking it. I am disappointed with how mechanics look so far just like many others, but I'm still giving it a chance.

I'm cross with Sakurai for acting hard-headed about receiving suggestions.

I'm disappointed with the absence of various AT's.

I'm frustrated that this community is growing even MORE split.

However, for some bizarre and unknown reason, I still have hope. I'm still giving this game a chance. I still have faith Sakurai finally decides to make some changes. And even if he doesn't, I'll still try this game anyway. I won't attack this game, regardless of the final product. It's hard to do, but it's all one step at a time.

 

[WinterShorts]

aMSa-Yoshi
Taj-Mewtwo
Gimpyfish-Bowser
Neo-Roy

aMSa in particular is extremely good. I think he could hold his own vs. Armada/M2K/Mango/PP/Hbox

As much as they can hold their own, In the end, who won more times? Were the times people like aMSa and Taj won a tournament or match or something even with or even come close to the number of times Mew2King or HBox won? If not, Melee is proven to be not as balanced as you think.

Brawl however, I do agree with you it's unbalanced as I said before.

Be honest, would you have cared if they hadn't have changed the physics from melee to brawl?

A little bit. I do admit I like Project M 3.02 more than Brawl, but that of course doesn't mean I hate brawl. Brawl still offers gameplay I like, something more basic instead of being comboed all over the damn place. Although you asked only to be honest, so I only say a little bit.

Are people under the impression that because old techs can't be done, new ones won't arise? I think people should wait until a few months after release before passing judgement, not on a build that wasn't the final product.

Oh, true. Maybe It's a fast smash bros that's the same speed as melee, if not slower, but uses different techniques.

EDIT: Yeah, sorry for the former 2 posts being posted again apperently I thought It didn't post, my bad.

 

[JV5Chris]

Why would anyone expect anything Melee like after his interview a year ago about pretty much saying he's not gonna do something like that again.

Don't recall any interview being explicit about disregarding everything that was Melee in future Smash games.

Come to think of it, most Sakuari interviews either stay vague or express ideas on two sides of a spectrum playing to different audiences. I don't think it's hard to see where people could be mislead.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

We can wait and give it a chance... But then it's gonna be too late to do anything about it. It's better to take prevent than to cry after it didn't go the way you wanted... Plus it's gonna cost like $400 to "try it out". (I already have a WiiU, so that just applies to those without)

Granted it's not like there's much to do between now and the release, it could be too late already. <.< Hopefully E3 feedback can be listened to so this last few days of development can make a difference. (Production, shipping, etc.. Will eat up the last 2 months pretty much)

 

[Renji64]

The endless downwad sprial of this franchise is saddening at times. Ever since brawl it more stuff gets removed less control.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

One thing that really struck me watching E3 was what I assume is Stale Move Negation and its affect on knockback on some attacks/throws. Using http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YNU6pnUgA0 as a reference, at 8:46 Kirby gets a grab on ZSS at 79% and up throws, KOing off the top and yet at 10:12, a grab to up throw from Kirby at 84% in an almost identical scenario to the one previous leads to ZSS not really going anywhere. I don't remember Stale Moves being quite so severe in Brawl?

I still think it's too early to tell what the final product of Smash 4 is going to be but I'm not too keen on the idea of lots of aerial lag and total lack of Smash DI. I'll be sad (but not surprised) to see Glide Tossing go as well.

 

[Saito]

Plus it's gonna cost like $400 to "try it out".

Just like in the olden days, people will have casual friends that will get the game and the competitives can try it out there.

If I see people able to share rides to tournies, I can see people sharing the new experience as well, especially since it's a new smash game.

Also everyone should get a Wii U.
Splatoon is gonna be tight yo.

 

[victinivcreate1]

IDK why people say Melee's competitiveness was based off glitches, when Brawl is the BIGGEST offender when it came to glitches becoming competitive tools used in the game. Glide tossing is a glitch. DACUS is a glitch. Gatling combo is a glitch. Flight of Ganon is a GLLLLIIITCCCCHHH. Scarring is a glitch.

Wavedashing was found in development and wasn't removed.
L-Cancelling is an actual technique.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

We can wait and give it a chance... But then it's gonna be too late to do anything about it. It's better to take prevent than to cry after it didn't go the way you wanted... Plus it's gonna cost like $400 to "try it out". (I already have a WiiU, so that just applies to those without)

Granted it's not like there's much to do between now and the release, it could be too late already. <.< Hopefully E3 feedback can be listened to so this last few days of development can make a difference. (Production, shipping, etc.. Will eat up the last 2 months pretty much)

I'm sorry. I was pretty unclear on my wording. Give it a chance/try meant to not attack the final product, whatever it may be. I didn't mean buying it and realizing you didn't like it. Plus, people most likely have buddies who will have the game, so buying the game yourself won't be necessary.

 

[Doser]

...simply because it doesn't mirror Melee's extremely and uncomfortably fast paced fighting style...

Despite your emotional appeals you are just twisting what people are saying, which is not a nice thing to do.

 

[ThomasTheTrain]

Crouch canceling doesn't seem to work. Do people in general like the removal of crouch canceling? I personally like crouch canceling and aren't super excited for its removal, it's not a hard tech move or anything.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

IDK why people say Melee's competitiveness was based off glitches, when Brawl is the BIGGEST offender when it came to glitches becoming competitive tools used in the game. Glide tossing is a glitch. DACUS is a glitch. Gatling combo is a glitch. Flight of Ganon is a GLLLLIIITCCCCHHH. Scarring is a glitch.

Wavedashing was found in development and wasn't removed.
L-Cancelling is an actual technique.

This is more or less true.

 

[Giygacoal]

IDK why people say Melee's competitiveness was based off glitches, when Brawl is the BIGGEST offender when it came to glitches becoming competitive tools used in the game. Glide tossing is a glitch. DACUS is a glitch. Gatling combo is a glitch. Flight of Ganon is a GLLLLIIITCCCCHHH. Scarring is a glitch.

Wavedashing was found in development and wasn't removed.
L-Cancelling is an actual technique.

I don't know if it's fair to say whether stuff like DACUS and glide tossing are glitches. At least we know that wavedashing can't be a glitch (or at least not a logic error) because it makes so much sense within the concept of the game's air dodge physics. I have no idea how DACUS works on a technical level since I'm not a Brawl player, so maybe it is a glitch.

I get your point though, and I agree with your point.

 

[Saito]

Crouch canceling doesn't seem to work. Do people in general like the removal of crouch canceling? I personally like crouch canceling and aren't super excited for its removal, it's not a hard tech move or anything.

Glad it's gone to be honest. I never really liked it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wavedashinh could be a glitch in the sense it has you jump and immediately air dodge into theground and your momentum carries into you sliding on the ground.

If it or not intentional or just left in cause they didn't isn't my concern. It's just what it is.

 

[Giygacoal]

Wavedashinh could be a glitch in the sense it has you jump and immediately air dodge into theground and your momentum carries into you sliding on the ground.

If it or not intentional or just left in cause they didn't isn't my concern. It's just what it is.

That doesn't really say "glitch" to me, and, though I could be mistaken, I have taken a programming class. The designers came up with an air thruster, and wavedashing just makes so much sense if you think "What if the air thruster was used while on the ground?" and consider that the properties of the wavedash depend on various character specific features such as how slippery the characters are. I would call it "implicit design."

 

[Ulevo]

I don't know if it's fair to say whether stuff like DACUS and glide tossing are glitches. At least we know that wavedashing can't be a glitch (or at least not a logic error) because it makes so much sense within the concept of the game's air dodge physics. I have no idea how DACUS works on a technical level since I'm not a Brawl player, so maybe it is a glitch.

I get your point though, and I agree with your point.

DACUS is a glitch. You shouldn't be able to cancel a dash attack mid animation in to another attack. That's obviously not supposed to happen.

Anyway, I got back from the demo. I didn't play much since there wasn't many places to sit, but I got to watch people play and got some play time in on the 3DS version as well.

One thing I will say is that the game looks visually beautiful. It's gorgeous. I would have loved to play a competitive Smash game that looks like this. The new characters are also of course intriguing.

That being said, that's where my praise ends. The person who said that the pacing of the game needs work is absolutely right. The game gives the illusion of speed in certain respects, such as with fast run animations, but the lag is real. Recovery on moves, and especially air dodges, are long and prevalent. Brawl plays faster in this respect. As for combos, it will be a matter of self discovery, but I saw characters get out of combos real fast. Had a Pikachu forward throw a villager at 0% and he got out of the followup even though he barely went anywhere. I don't know if players are playing poorly when they're being combo'd or if its move dependent.

Anyway, my impression of the game as of right now is that if this demo were released as is then Smash Wii U doesn't have a very long lasting or sustainable competitive scene. It doesn't have the Melee hype to drive it, it's already getting poor rep (rightfully so), and although people are saying the development team is willing to take advice the reality is that the 3DS version is nearly 3 months away till world wide launch with the Wii U version following two months after that. They're not making ground breaking changes that will improve these issues. Not before launch.

 

[victinivcreate1]

DACUS is a glitch. You shouldn't be able to cancel a dash attack mid animation in to another attack. That's obviously not supposed to happen.

Anyway, I got back from the demo. I didn't play much since there wasn't many places to sit, but I got to watch people play and got some play time in on the 3DS version as well.

One thing I will say is that the game looks visually beautiful. It's gorgeous. I would have loved to play a competitive Smash game that looks like this. The new characters are also of course intriguing.

That being said, that's where my praise ends. The person who said that the pacing of the game needs work is absolutely right. The game gives the illusion of speed in certain respects, such as with fast run animations, but the lag is real. Recovery on moves, and especially air dodges, are long and prevalent. Brawl plays faster in this respect. As for combos, it will be a matter of self discovery, but I saw characters get out of combos real fast. Had a Pikachu forward throw a villager at 0% and he got out of the followup even though he barely went anywhere. I don't know if players are playing poorly when they're being combo'd or if its move dependent.

Anyway, my impression of the game as of right now is that if this demo were released as is then Smash Wii U doesn't have a very long lasting or sustainable competitive scene. It doesn't have the Melee hype to drive it, it's already getting poor rep (rightfully so), and although people are saying the development team is willing to take advice the reality is that the 3DS version is nearly 3 months away till world wide launch with the Wii U version following two months after that. They're not making ground breaking changes that will improve these issues. Not before launch.

I am really hoping that they might be able to change it to increase the gravity, increase hitstun of moves, decrease the ending lag of attacks/add L-Cancelling, and decrease knockback of moves. Also add in dash dancing and a few melee and brawl techs that added to gameplay and were beneficial to characters. I'd be perfectly fine with those 5 changes. Is that a Melee 2.0 clone? Nope. Is that a Brawl 2.0 clone? Nope. Thats Smash 4 for ya.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

it's already getting poor rep (rightfully so), and although people are saying the development team is willing to take advice the reality is that the 3DS version is nearly 3 months away till world wide launch with the Wii U version following two months after that. They're not making ground breaking changes that will improve these issues. Not before launch.

From?

 

[Renji64]

Crouch canceling doesn't seem to work. Do people in general like the removal of crouch canceling? I personally like crouch canceling and aren't super excited for its removal, it's not a hard tech move or anything.

People want every tech removed from smash pretty much. ._.

 

[Ulevo]

From?

From players who attended E3?

 

[Saito]

From players who attended E3?

I think that goes for competitive players that attended e3 more or less.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

From players who attended E3?

source?

Cause I all got from them is,

Tweet from Prog: "The game is a work in progress, but they are listening and asking for advice. For that and the opportunity, #ThankYouNintendo".

Tweet from PewPewU: "Thoughts on smash 4: it lacked pace. That's all i'll say for now". He also tweeted that "it's very fixable!"

Tweet from Hugs: "Played Samus for over 14 years, & 16 other knowledgeable players didn't pick her. If you believe Samus was the best, you are sadly mistaken".

This.

 

[victinivcreate1]

From?

Myself and a few of my friends who played the demo, and a few other guys behind us.

The game looks beautiful and the roster is decent, I guess (don't really care for Rosalina/Greninja/Pac-Man). Stages are awesome. Thats where my praise ends. Mechanically the game is a mess. I am HOPING it will be changed. I just want higher gravity, more stun, less lag on moves, and more mobility options (like it would be cool if momentum from your dash carried into your jump like in Melee and PM).

 

[Chimera]

I know I was quoted a few times, but I really don't have the time to get to all of them. So I'll just respond to a couple.

And you're an air head?

There's no space in airhead.

The mechanics and their interactions with the characters are the only thing that matter from the competitive perspective.

Yeah, mechanics are learned. You don't watch a pre-release and go "there is no meta potential whatsoever" It's impossible.

There you go friend. You had a typo here but I fixed it for you.

Changing things inherently means adding and removing things. So you're not really saying anything that I didn't already say.

I'm afraid I'm not aware of a good reason to dismiss a game OTHER than the mechanics. Surely it would be dumb to dismiss a game based wholly on something superficial like the art style or say the menu layout, but the mechanics of the game are the polar opposite of superficial. Having an issue with the mechanics of game is having an issue with the entire essence of the game, and so I think it is a highly legitimate reason to not be excited about a game. After all what is a game without the rules that define it?

As I said, you haven't given the game a chance to learn the mechanics. Are the mechanics the same as Melee? No. The mechanics are Smash 4's. You'll have to learn some new stuff.

These examples only show one thing: change is not inherently bad for a series. I have not seen anyone in this thread (or elsewhere honestly) demanding 'melee 2.0' or similar. Sure there are aspects of Melee people would like to see, but I don't think that would qualify as anything close to 'melee 2.0'.

I have seen plenty of people wanting a melee 2.0.

It isn't the existence of changes that has people let down, it is what the changes are.

In my opinion, that's a poor reason to dismiss a game.

There is a big difference between what we knew in 2001 about these types of games and what we know now in 2014. Clearly we have not fully sussed out this game, but this doesn't mean we know nothing. It does not take years upon years to determine if a game will be fast or not. This was exactly the same narrative given when Brawl came out.

Brawl's meta has changed substantially since release. So your point is a bit moot. All I'm saying you should give the game a fair chance to stand out on its own.


I think there are an unhealthy amount of people with a confirmation bias about Smash 4. They aren't looking at the game with an open mind but with a pre-decided opinion of the game. I think it's a little sad, and it's unfortunate that this will probably only cause more issues for the community.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Myself and a few of my friends who played the demo, and a few other guys behind us.

The game looks beautiful and the roster is decent, I guess (don't really care for Rosalina/Greninja/Pac-Man). Stages are awesome. Thats where my praise ends. Mechanically the game is a mess. I am HOPING it will be changed. I just want higher gravity, more stun, less lag on moves, and more mobility options (like it would be cool if momentum from your dash carried into your jump like in Melee and PM).

And I've heard people enjoyed it and gave feedback, saying overall it is poor rep is misleading.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Brawl's meta has changed substantially since release. So your point is a bit moot. All I'm saying you should give the game a fair chance to stand out on its own.

MK in 2008
Tornado uair shuttle loop nair oos ftilt in neutral spacing

In 2013
Uair Shuttle Loop nair oos ftilt in neutral spacing tornado

Marth in 2008
Fair spacing

In 2013
Fair spacing

Wolf in 2008
Bair broken hitbox

Wolf in 2013
Bair broken hitbox.

King Dedede in 2008
Chaingrabs, grab abuse, grab oos

In 2013
Chaingrabs, grab abuse, grab oos

Snake in 2008
Tilts grenades, c4 placements

In 2013
Tilts grenades c4 placements

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wolf in 2008
Bair broken hitbox

Wolf in 2013
Bair broken hitbox.

This is 110% wrong.

Bair is part of his game, but it does not make Wolf what he is.

 

[Deleted member]

I'll just leave this here.

Can't speak for the invitational players, but at every booth/TV display setup the Nintendo reps were asking what improvements we thought could be made. At first I thought it wouldn't really go anywhere/they wouldn't listen to specific suggestions, but in the VIP area a competitive player (blanking on his name) suggested less landing lag after ariels, and bigger dash dancing, and they took the time to write it down and make sure they got the terminology correct! They seemed genuinely interested!

From reddit. You can make your own interpretations of this, but it at least shows some sign that they are listening to peoples concerns.

EDIT: A group of players also plan on formally telling Nintendo their suggestions as well.

I heard that a group of players (including Armada and some of the tournament participants) plan to formally give their advice and suggestions to Nintendo. I didn't ask if the advice was solicited.

Again, from reddit.

 

[Saito]

I'll just leave this here.

From reddit. You can make your own interpretations of this, but it at least shows some sign that they are listening to peoples concerns.

This has been noted many times.

It was also potentially refuted.

I honestly hope that some of the feedback is taken into consideration, along with potential changes to the game post release via patches.

 

[Deleted member]

This has been noted many times.

It was also potentially refuted.

I honestly hope that some of the feedback is taken into consideration, along with potential changes to the game post release via patches.

Ah, I wasn't aware. Haven't really been keeping up with the thread much. But I have faith that they're listening, the game isn't finished yet, and there's still room for changes.

 

[victinivcreate1]

This is 110% wrong.

Bair is part of his game, but it does not make Wolf what he is.

Anything else? Wolf's defining move is his bair after all. I guess his DACUS, Scarring and down smash are significant, but bair is his bread and butter. Its safe on block, fast, has KO power, can combo *sometimes*, low ending lag, disjointed hitbox, etc. Its the perfect move.

 

[Saito]

Ah, I wasn't aware. Haven't really been keeping up with the thread much. But I have faith that they're listening, the game isn't finished yet, and there's still room for changes.

There are plenty of people who are willing to listen, but if nothing is acted on, then what is there to do?

If sakurai feels that we don't know what's best for his game then we don't. But I don't believe him to be childish. If he sees that a good majority of people feel this way, he might be swayed.

However, Both Europe and Japan haven't had any time with the game. I'm sure he wouldn't change everything just off of our opinions.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Anything else? Wolf's defining move is his bair after all. I guess his DACUS, Scarring and down smash are significant, but bair is his bread and butter. Its safe on block, fast, has KO power, can combo *sometimes*, low ending lag, disjointed hitbox, etc. Its the perfect move.

Shiek 2006
grabs people with CGs and uses gay fair to kill them at a low angle.

Sheik 2014
grabs people with CGs and uses gay fair to kill them at a low angle.

It's easy to simplify gameplay when you leave out other details. Wolf's Bair is good and his best aerial, so what? His Dthrow leading to either a tech read or following them up, could be followed up with DACUS if you read it right.

Scaring is a part of it, on some stages. Shine is more useful on him than the other spacies, decent OoS option sometimes, laser can be used better to wavebounce because he has good air mobility.

To make it simple, your bias is showing.