Smash Wii U So yeah. I'm not impressed by Smash Wii U. What do you think?

[MatthewSwain9]

I just hope there isnt an MK if you know what i mean

 

[rawrimamonster]

I recommend for everyone to read that. A very good, objective read.

All I'm reading from it is the game has to change to really have potential. Still though, at least it gave more indepth information from someone who actually played it.

 

[Big-Cat]

http://nintendoenthusiast.com/artic...bros-wii-u-perspective-competitive-player-e3/

This might be relevant.

I think the first complaint is why I think Smash players, ESPECIALLY Melee players, are spoiled.

A traditional strategy is to jump in with a low-lag aerial, spaced and timed well to avoid punishment in the event that the opponent blocks, and then to follow up on block or hit with another quick/safe move that links well after the initial move.

This is now significantly less effective because many aerials performed close to the ground will render characters stuck in cooldown for too long, making them punishable for trying to attack.

I see this as a good thing as the approach and pressure tools need to be considered more. In a game with the ability to fast fall short hops, this kind of thing is extremely easy to theoretically set up frame traps. Compare this to a fighting game such as King of Fighters where there ARE short hops and instant overheads, but there is no fast falling option to make things like instant overheads dominating.

From the Melee It On Me article, the retention of fox trotting and the increased risk of dashing lead me to believe that both the air and ground game have changed a lot. This change reminds me a lot of Tekken's movement game. The addition of pivoting attacks leads me to believe that even attacking will be Tekken esque. Do not be surprised to see foxtrotting back and then pivoting with a DTilt a common strategy for Marth.

So to those of you out there, I suggest either buying or renting Tekken Tag Tournament 2 and read up on the techniques of that game such as its dash canceling. I think it will prove very important for Smash 4.

 

[BEES]

Looks pretty uninteresting. I don't need wavedashing or l-canceling to enjoy a game, and if they could achieve a fast-paced combo-filled aggressive game without those fine. But the product they have looks floaty, campy, pretty much like Brawl with the speed turned up a notch.

Guess I won't be getting a WiiU...

 

[mygamecube]

I played a single round at Best Buy. Line was too long to get another crack. I also played Smash Run on 3DS version.

Both versions definitely have some similarities and differences from past Smash games. Gonna have to play more of it obviously, but Brawl players should feel right at home with the game mostly. It's essentially a sped up Brawl. Not necessarily bad, but a little underwhelming.

No matter though. I'm fully intent that the mechanics and physics will be a tad different come final version.

 

[mister_subarashi]

Sure. Pay attention.

Since I'm not going to throw an encyclopedia at you of Melee mechanics, since that would be too long, I'll stick to a more pertinent topic. People are complaining about Smash Wii U because it's pacing is slow and resembles Brawl. Well why is Brawls pacing slow? Obviously when we say slow, we're talking by comparison to Melee, so let's look at what makes the game play fast.

1. Momentum.

In Melee, if you run out of a dash and jump, you maintain the momentum from that run as you transition in to the air. This makes following up on combos easier, more fluent, gives the game speed, and makes approach options for characters easier, especially for characters with no projectiles or disjointed hitboxes, like Captain Falcon. This is not in Brawl. All momentum is halted the moment you enter the air in to a stagnant speed that always remains constant. This is obviously not ideal because it makes approaching harder, and slows down the pace.

2. Fall speed, fast fall speed.

Obviously the values of these are different per game. They are not the same as gravity and weight, which are more relevant to things like how far a character goes during knock back. These elements are more relevant to the speed at which a character can move. If a character can transition from the ground to the air, and back down to the ground again, it makes the air to ground game faster. It also makes maneuvering around platforms faster too.

3. Dash cancelling.

When you commit to a run in a game like Brawl, your options are very limited because you can only do a dash attack, an up smash, a non-neutral special, shield, or take tot he air. While this is seemingly a lot of options, being able to utilize tactics like tilts, standard attacks, side and down smashes, and standing grabs out of a run allow for safer options and more utility in how you approach a defending player. And because Brawl doesn't have Wavedashing, meaning you can't reposition yourself mid dash (you have to commit), dash cancelling is an important element to maintain. Of course, it's not there.

4. Shields are dumb.

Brawls shields were overpowered. Simply put. The only way for you to avoid punishment from large grab hitboxes, out of shield options, and chain grabs was to space properly against the shield. What this means is that again, you can't commit to movement options that are faster, or more aggressive, otherwise you will be punished. This is an aspect people don't think about when evaluating Brawls overall speed.

5. No dash dancing.

Once thing that dash dancing does is it allows you to forsake the idea of committing to an unsafe option from a perspective of frame advantage in favor of just psychologically winning out over your opponent. If you dash dance in place, you extend the range of your hit box because it means you can commit to a dash attack (or a momentum based aerial assult) at any time. Even if it is an unsafe thing to do on block, the fact that you have the option to utilize this at a moments notice and your opponent has to predict or react quicker than usual creates safe openings in unsafe circumstances, rewarding faster gameplay.

6. Hit lag is different.

If I hit you with an attack and it keeps you in freeze frame as if I hit you with a Samus Charge shot, that's going to slow down the tempo of the game considerably.

7. Ledge cancelling.

Simply put, there are a lot of techniques you can utilize in Melee, such as aerials, that can have their landing lag cancelling while maintaining momentum and positioning just by moving in a direction towards a ledge as an aerial or move is used. This was cut from Brawl, and makes it yet again harder to cut corners and speed up gameplay.

8: Frames of moves and movement.

When you increase the amount of frames it takes to do things like a roll, that slows down gameplay. Pretty simple. It's obvious that moves that were previously fast have been given up time on start up, hit box duration, and cooldown recovery. Globally this seems to be a trend. Obviously I don't have the numbers in front of me to prove that to you for Smash Wii U, but you don't need numbers to see it happening. It's obvious, especially if you've played for a while and know how many frames are in x move. I can already see plenty of moves in Smash Wii U that have unnecessarily long durations. Brawl was kind of bad for this but I really see it here.

All of these things contribute to whether or not a game can be played a quick pace the way Melee can be. There's plenty more than that can too, like jump cancelled moves on characters like Fox, or double jump cancels for Ness and Yoshi. Wavedashing helps along too, but L-Cancelling is pivotal because it prevents characters with heavy recovery lag like Bowser from being condemned in to a status as terrible characters. Even if the implementation of this design is wrong, the fact remains that the landing lag on moves in Melee is ultimately lower.

That was a seriously impressive write-up, I agree completely, coming from someone who has been playing Melee since it was released in Europe.

The thing is, I've already went through this entire experience once, I went through all the stages: the out of control hype during the Brawl reveal, going to the Dojo everyday, the small doubts I've had after people started giving their impressions before the release (which I shoved away by thinking: "people just need to give it time and learn the new engine!"), and the denial I went through after buying it myself, trying to "get used" to this new Smash, playing it for many months with my friends, until we all woke up one day and just realized that Brawl was actually a pretty stale and boring game.

Seriously, when we went back to Melee months later, it felt like that was the brand new game we waited for so long haha

I know, we all want a fresh new Smash, with amazing characters, graphics and stages (which Smash 4 provides in spades, nobody can deny it, it looks f'ing awesome), but if the new one ends up sucking gameplay wise, lets make the best out of a crappy situation. Melee is on a roll lately, it keeps getting more and more attention, and that's not even my favorite game since last year. I tried out PM for the first time after v3.0 came out, and it only took 5 minutes for it to turn into my favorite Smash Bros. game so far.

I wasn't hyped when Smash 4 was revealed, because I honestly think Sakurai can't be reasoned with regarding the issue of competitive fighting games, this is a party game in his eyes and that's that, Melee was just a happy accident. I know the game isn't finished yet, but lets be reasonable here... They can't change that much in the few months left before the game gets released, I believe what we see right now is mostly what we are going to get, minus some small balance adjustments here and there.

But hey, at least tripping is gone! That alone is cause for celebration And the items in this seem much more interesting than the ones in Brawl, so it does look like this will turn into a pretty cool party game after all. Playing with items on is very nice every once in a while.

In the meantime, the PM team will keep providing me with a true competitive and crazy fun Smash game that I will keep playing for many years to come, if I could I would buy a round of drinks to those guys, because they are so damn awesome for all their hard work!

In short, just play what you enjoy the most and keep your hype in check. I have more fun watching paint dry than playing Brawl, but if someone enjoys it more than Melee or PM, who am I to judge? Maybe Sakurai will have a change of mind and slap the flow-killing stuff right out of the game, but if not, the Smash scene will keep on trucking for sure, with or without his blessing.

And please, stop giving so much importance to wave-dashing, seriously. People who mention it in a derogatory way act like its the end of the world, the true mark of the Melee elitist... Meh, I only use it when I jump to a higher platform and want to land on it faster, I never use it to move around, its too tedious having to press all those buttons, all the time. Having said that, huge props to all of you wave-shiners out there, you must have fingers of steel and the will of a shaolin monk :^)

 

[sunshinesan]

But hey, at least tripping is gone! That alone is cause for celebration.

I refuse to put on a fake smile for this particular change. It's like being grateful that the waiter didn't spit in my food after doing so in my last dish.

I will be playing this game as a party game, and enjoy it accordingly. I remember playing Melee when I was 11 years old, it was one of my most cherished experiences, and I didn't know anything about the depth and independence this game had. I treated it as a Nintendo celebration, and it was fantastic. Funny how a game that can be so competitive and deep and do that to you right?

In a perfect world, a fighting game so unique as Smash is made by a genius that appreciates depths, competition, and passion in a video game, but in our world, we get a Smash made by a genius who have disdain toward those things. It's not the worst thing that can happen and I've accepted it.

 

[RODO]

That's the problem with metagames based entirely around glitches. They get fixed and people whine, whine, whine. You people honestly think Sakurai had any idea how Wavedashing would effect the metagame? No. I doubt he even thought there'd be a metagame.

You people complaining that SSB4 is closer to Brawl because there's no Melee techs, where's the Brawl techs? Gone. Melee techs? Gone. Compare a techless Melee, a techless Brawl, and SSB4, and you'll see that the core mechanics of 4 are right between the two.

Please, and I sincerely say please in the kindest way possible,...shut up.

 

[Snakeyes]

I see this as a good thing as the approach and pressure tools need to be considered more. In a game with the ability to fast fall short hops, this kind of thing is extremely easy to theoretically set up frame traps. Compare this to a fighting game such as King of Fighters where there ARE short hops and instant overheads, but there is no fast falling option to make things like instant overheads dominating.

From the Melee It On Me article, the retention of fox trotting and the increased risk of dashing lead me to believe that both the air and ground game have changed a lot. This change reminds me a lot of Tekken's movement game. The addition of pivoting attacks leads me to believe that even attacking will be Tekken esque. Do not be surprised to see foxtrotting back and then pivoting with a DTilt a common strategy for Marth.

I disagree. While these intricacies may be fitting for a traditional fighter set on a flat arena, Smash gives players so much freedom of movement that these safe approach options are pretty much necessary to establish fast-paced, dynamic gameplay.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

Can someone please tell me why Sakurai doesn't just use Melee gameplay? Honestly this is the best compromise.

It's funny that you use the term "compromise", because that's exactly what Smash 4 is. A compromise between Melee and Brawl gameplay.

 

[mister_subarashi]

I refuse to put on a fake smile for this particular change. It's like being grateful that the waiter didn't spit in my food after doing so in my last dish.

I will be playing this game as a party game, and enjoy it accordingly. I remember playing Melee when I was 11 years old, it was one of my most cherished experiences, and I didn't know anything about the depth and independence this game had. I treated it as a Nintendo celebration, and it was fantastic. Funny how a game that can be so competitive and deep and do that to you right?

In a perfect world, a fighting game so unique as Smash is made by a genius that appreciates depths, competition, and passion in a video game, but in our world, we get a Smash made by a genius who have disdain toward those things. It's not the worst thing that can happen and I've accepted it.

I know what you mean, I was a Sony fanboy and made a lot of fun of my friends when they showed me a trailer of Melee back in the day... Yep, I was a pretty big idiot at the time haha Then they managed to get a Gamecube a week before release date and invited me to play Melee with them, which resulted in me swallowing my own stupidity, buying a Gamecube and playing Melee for the next 6 years

I can honestly say that Smash Bros. turned me into the gamer I am today, so you can imagine just how disappointed I was when Brawl came out... It is a weird fate for a game that's so unique and full of potential. Oh well, at least we got PM out of that mess, so I honestly can't complain!

Those great games aren't going away, even if Smash 4 ends up sucking, so it will all be alright in the end.

 

[RODO]

It's funny that you use the term "compromise", because that's exactly what Smash 4 is. A compromise between Melee and Brawl gameplay.

If by compromise you mean it doesn't play like melee at all then yeah lol a compromise. But playing completely like Melee would certainly not be a compromise for the fans.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I want to remind everyone to keep discussion civil and to not insult each other over a few differences in opinions. There's really no need for this level of nastiness that I've been seeing from people. No reason at all.

 

[HeroMystic]

"A compromise between Melee and Brawl" is a misinterpretation in my opinion. From what I've played, Smash 4 is most likely to be described as a more competitive version of Brawl.

I honestly couldn't tell you any direct similarities Smash 4 has with Melee, but Pivots, Wavebouncing and B-Reversals all still exist.

 

[MrHazuki]

It's funny that you use the term "compromise", because that's exactly what Smash 4 is. A compromise between Melee and Brawl gameplay.

There is no element in Smash 4 so far that resembles Melee but not Brawl.

Can I please just be allowed to insult this once, VenusBloom? Please let your title answer my question...

 

[Hong]

I would like to apologize for the tone of any messages I wrote anywhere on the forums earlier.

Yeah, I have been playing the series since the N64 version came out. That is surprisingly longer than some of the folks on here have been born.

I play Smash Bros all the time. I play all three commercial editions, I play 64 competitively, Brawl casually, and Melee both. Of course I expected so much and really even in half an hour am in no position to assess the value of the product.

While my opinion on the mechanics of the game are as true as when I stated it, I think saying it can't even be a party game is going too far. I mean, assuming this build of the game was compiled in April or May, that means there is still so much time for them to, if they pour their heart into it, make something amazing. Starting from after the invitational alone, they have nearly three months to work on the game if you factor in production time. Not to mention I can guarantee you that the version the developer gets to play is way better than the demo or the version they used for the invitational.

If you liked Brawl, this is a better version than Brawl.
If you didn't like Brawl, this is a better version than Brawl.

Give it a chance. I can't see you getting any less than at least a hundred hours of play. That is way more value than a lot of the games out there.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

When playing this, it didn't feel like brawl to me. It felt like its own game.

Sure, technical mechanics may resemble brawl more than melee but the feel of the game, the pacing, the gravity, the hitstun, the influence of DI, all of these things felt different than any other smash game.

I think the community is making a serious mistake writing this game off just because of impressions from videos and a demo that not everyone has played.

 

[Johnknight1]

I played Smash 3DS (not WiiU, but I saw a lot of it), and I think both games have the best character design in the franchise.

By far.

The gameplay strengths on the ground, the edges, the off the stage (not above the stage) are great.

However, the aerial game is really funky and different. Depending on what is added and how it works, will determine the fate of the game; that and the mobility of characters.

It's a demo though guys. It's not complete. Both games are very much not complete, and many things about Smash 3DS feels raw.

The games are like Smash 64 floaty, but with more ability to DI vertically. Horizontally the DI is the least of the series by far.

However, the real story was the hype.

I went to San Jose. There were over 1,000 people who played the game, and over 300 more who didn't who were in line an hour within the end, as well as hundreds of others.

I got there at opening and didn't finish the line to Smash WiiU, but as I said, I played Smash 3DS in a 1v1 against my brother (spoiler alert: I dominated).

I didn't care that I didn't play Smash WiiU, because Smash 3DS was fantastic, I MARKED THE HECK OUT AT TOON LINK (for the record, I ran the pre-Brawl Toon Link thread, and I'm the best biggest Toon Link fan on the internet, and Toon Link was the only Brawl character I played).

Too Link was mostly the same, but with many minor but hugely impactful changes. His combos on the ground were very, very, very good. His off the stage game I didn't test, but I imagine it will be great. He also has much better KO power, and I think his down air meteor smashes like Link's down air.

So yeah, back to the hype, when my 2 minutes was up of playing my brother, and after me marking out, you could FEEL THE HYPE!!! People felt my hype, I felt their hype, and it was like a giant hype orgy. That's the only way I can describe it. The SHEER LOVE OF SMASH WAS SO FEELABLE!!!

And man, all the potential is there.

Yes, mechanically the game feels like Brawl with the techniques. The combo and spike game feels like Melee. But the physics feel like Marvel vs. Capcom, with minimal horizontal DI, and quite a lot of control (and some floatiness that is still less than Brawl AND 64! [at least in Smash 3DS]) and solid DI amount in vertical DI.

The new edge grab mechanics and grab mechanics (chain grabs look dead, but combos into and out of grabs aren't) have a fantastic impact. I loved most of that, although I do wish we had some tech chase potential with grabs.

If we can find ways to improve approaches (specifically horizontally in the air via DI), reduce (or find super effective ways around) air to land offense post-move lag, and ACCEPT THAT THIS IS NOTHING LIKE 64, MELEE, OR BRAWL, AND IT WON'T BE, THESE TWO QUITE DIFFERENT GAMES WILL BE AMAZING!!!

 

[ACDC]

Not everyone likes melee gameplay.

Or aspects of it. Keep Wavedashing if you want it, but no thanks to l-canceling or crouch canceling.

More people like the melee way than the brawl way young padawan. You still have much to learn before you can master the way of the super smash bros. I suggest you start by comparing melee views and brawl views on youtube videos

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

More people like the melee way than the brawl way young padawan. You still have much to learn before you can master the way of the super smash bros. I suggest you start by comparing melee views and brawl views on youtube videos

I play Melee, Brawl and PM. I know now a days some people are more vocal on liking Melee more, that doesn't mean I want everything from it or even from Brawl.

 

[ACDC]

I play Melee, Brawl and PM. I know now a days some people are more vocal on liking Melee more, that doesn't mean I want everything from it or even from Brawl.

It's not about you. It's about what most people want

 

[Johnknight1]

Also I hope my pal @SuperSkeetBro comments here.

I ran into him, and he got there early, somehow got three 2 minutes matches of Smash 3DS and 1 two minute match of Smash WiiU, lol!!!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's not about you. It's about what most people want

So the casual crowd?

 

[Johnknight1]

To expand upon my previous comment (well actually my 2nd to last comment), the difference in DI makes these 2 games feel like the most different games in the franchise.

The DI change is the most drastic change I think we've ever had in smash bros.

It changes everything about the game in more ways than people realize. It makes Smash 3DS (and probably Smash WiiU as well [again I played Smash 3DS but not Smash WiiU]) feel nothing like the previous 3 games.

===

Also, I talked to 2 of the 4 or so Nintendo reps (my 3DS people! One who gave me and my brother a 3DS to play and I just about cried because it meant I got to play Toon Link, who I am the biggest fan of ever in the history of the universe), and they both agreed with me that there's too much air to land attack lag.

They were a little weirded out when I said the DI was like Tekken (I later clarified it was more like Marvel vs. Capcom) and I explained it with the horizontal DI and they kinda agreed, lol. It is neither a good thing or a bad thing IMO, but a matter of how the execution is around it, and whether or not the game is better off with it or without it.

 

[ACDC]

So the casual crowd?

Exactly. And from my personal experience of asking friends around me that do NOT play competitively in any way or do NOT watch smash matches on the internet, they prefer the melee physics. And that's after asking over 10 friends who suck at smash. I don't understand why people have the notion that casuals prefer brawl. I played a few 3-4 player free for alls with friends lately in melee and we had a blast, so much laughter and good times. Then there was that other time we played brawl. They got tired after 30 minutes and we played mario kart instead. So Yeah casuals do prefer melee for the most part

 

[Johnknight1]

Because when I think fast approaches and combos

I think Kirby. /logic

I'm okay with saying "fast approaches", because Kirby doesn't have fast approaches (but Meta Knight does).

But your last comment, my goodness.

Apparently Smash 64 doesn't exist.

/logic

(also holy crap I was at that tournament nearly 5 years ago and I saw that match IRL)

 

[chipz]

Exactly. And from my personal experience of asking friends around me that do NOT play competitively in any way or do NOT watch smash matches on the internet, they prefer the melee physics. And that's after asking over 10 friends who suck at smash. I don't understand why people have the notion that casuals prefer brawl. I played a few 3-4 player free for alls with friends lately in melee and we had a blast, so much laughter and good times. Then there was that other time we played brawl. They got tired after 30 minutes and we played mario kart instead. So Yeah casuals do prefer melee for the most part

how very anecdotal

 

[ACDC]

how very anecdotal

Got anything interesting to say?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Got anything interesting to say?

That doesn't make his point any less valid.

 

[nessokman]

It's not about you. It's about what most people want

Exactly, and competitive smashers are the minority.

Thanks for admitting that.

 

[MrHazuki]

Brawl has sold more copies...

 

[chipz]

Got anything interesting to say?

not really, do you?

 

[GreaterMaelstrom]

I'm okay with saying "fast approaches", because Kirby doesn't have fast approaches (but Meta Knight does).

But your last comment, my goodness.

Apparently Smash 64 doesn't exist.

/logic

(also holy crap I was at that tournament nearly 5 years ago and I saw that match IRL)

Smash 4 Kirby is faster than 64s Kirby for one, and 2 that video is showing Kirby against fox, another "close" range fighter.

It's funny how people cry and wine about smash games being closer too melee or how the majority of "us" want a game that resembles 'melee' etc. etc. But half of these guys aren't even that good at melee or even understand why melee runs the way it did. Half of the traits Melee yielded were due to hardware limitations, experimentation, and even a small part of ignorance from a coding/development standpoint.

Smash 4 has some wrinkles needed to be Ironed out - yes, but along with new incarnations of smash, even ones that attempt to recreate an older version(PM), we discover new techs and ways to play. (just so happens that PM niche'd its way into being it's own game due to experimentation, limitations and ignorance.) we've only discovered a few new aspects of the game as a demo so far, Knockback scaling will indefinitely be refined before launch, and I'd expect the landing lag issues aswell.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

There is no element in Smash 4 so far that resembles Melee but not Brawl.

Can I please just be allowed to insult q once, VenusBloom? Please let your title answer my question...

You can disagree but not in an insulting manner that could be seen as inflammatory or antagonistic.

That applies to the entire thread.

 

[Doser]

just so happens that PM niche'd its way into being it's own game due to experimentation, limitations and ignorance.

You're being outright dishonest at this point.

Brawl has sold more copies...

That has more to do with the number of Wiis sold versus the number of Gamecubes sold.

 

[melito]

this should be about enjoying a brand new smash game. But I wish combos comeback though not gonna lie

 

[King DayDayDay]

this should be about enjoying a brand new smash game. But I wish combos comeback though not gonna lie

I went to best buy and played today. Combos actually exist once I kinda learned how to play it. For example, my first game I picked little mac, at a low % I could get some combos
However with Marth, my main for 13 years in smash, I really couldn't do anything with him, with the mechanic changes.

 

[melito]

I went to best buy and played today. Combos actually exist once I kinda learned how to play it. For example, my first game I picked little mac, at a low % I could get some combos
However with Marth, my main for 13 years in smash, I really couldn't do anything with him, with the mechanic changes.

thats the thing... you could do combos but is limited. Only some characters can do decent ones. Not like melee where everyone [i think] got good combos.

 

[King DayDayDay]

thats the thing... you could do combos but is limited. Only some characters can do decent ones. Not like melee where everyone [i think] got good combos.

No way to really tell, playing with the people I played with today, besides me playing marth, there were actually some decent combos, especially from ZSS and Fox. The ONLY thing that bothered me was the nerf on grabs. They go so far now once thrown so you can't combo with grabs. ;_;

EDIT: without progression, (studying mechanics and playing characters more to learn the set-ups.) it's hard to say what can and cannot be combo-able in the future.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

The ONLY thing that bothered me was the nerf on grabs. They go so far now once thrown so you can't combo with grabs. ;_;

I wouldn't discount grab/throw combos entirely. Just let people experiment once the game comes out and all should be fine.