Smash Wii U So yeah. I'm not impressed by Smash Wii U. What do you think?

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

And just because I'm honest, I'm going to come out and say it. Melee 2.0 with updated graphics, stages, and the works, would be absolutely mind blowingly awesome. And ironically most of you complaining about it would enjoy it just as much (possibly a little bit more) than the alternative we're getting.

Not like anyone's arguing this, and maybe it's not your personal wet dream, but it'd be cool if once in a while people stopped pretending like wanting a real Melee sequel is a crime, and something to not be talked about. Let's not forget the reason we're all here.

I would only because it would bring back mechanics I don't want back.

 

[LancerStaff]

No, he actually didn't, LancerStaff. If you knew the mechanics of Melee outside of L-Cancelling and Wavedashing, you'd know better.

And why would we be satisfied about having to create our own game as a solution to being alienated? Are you blind?

Explain yourself, because I am obviously too ignorant on the subject.

Lolno, plenty of Melee players hate PM because it's not exactly Melee. If I'm blind, you're def.

 

[Ulevo]

Because they are totally not making an effort by encouraging showfloor atendees to give feedback on the gameplay?

And how is that supposed to help when the 3DS comes out in 3 months, and the Wii U in 5? The game is done, basically. They're doing bug fixes, not design overhauls. Not before launch.

The reason this game doesn't play like Melee is because it isn't supposed to play like Melee. Ever since as early in development as I can remember, the developers said in interviews that the pace of the game would be somewhere between Melee and Brawl. Looking at the gameplay footage, it's clearly a bit faster than Brawl but still slower than Melee. I don't get why everyone is up in arms suddenly. I'm sorry, but you did come of as a bit selfish in your post. Only a very small minority of the whole smash community as a whole actually enjoyed mechanics like wavedashing, and calling SSB4 a bad game because they didn't incorporate the features you specifically wanted does come off as selfish.

I'm not arguing designer intention. That post was a reply to you telling us how Nintendo catered to our preferences on the competitive matter, and that was me telling you they didn't. Pay attention please.

Also, the game gives the illusion of speed on some accounts through things like faster run animations. That is not what creates faster gameplay, not when you have unsafe lag on every move you use that promotes defensive play.

You also need to use your brain and conceive that Wavedashing is not the synonym for Melee. You could take it out of Melee and you'd have a vast ocean of depth the swim through. This is the argument of ignorance that needs to kind of die already.

 

[LancerStaff]

And how is that supposed to help when the 3DS comes out in 3 months, and the Wii U in 5? The game is done, basically. They're doing bug fixes, not design overhauls. Not before launch.



I'm not arguing designer intention. That post was a reply to you telling us how Nintendo catered to our preferences on the competitive matter, and that was me telling you they didn't. Pay attention please.

Also, the game gives the illusion of speed on some accounts through things like faster run animations. That is not what creates faster gameplay, not when you have unsafe lag on every move you use that promotes defensive play.

You also need to use your brain and conceive that Wavedashing is not the synonym for Melee. You could take it out of Melee and you'd have a vast ocean of depth the swim through. This is the argument of ignorance that needs to kind of die already.

The argument of ignorance that we can completely judge where the metagame will go based on one real match is what needs to go, IMO. Or that we even needed these movement options in the first place. Many would argue Melee is the least Smash Brosy entry, and they'd be right in the regard that the mechanics favor competitive play. You're looking in the completely wrong place if that's the kind of game you're looking for.

 

[Doser]

Question: Will you ever be happy with a SSB game without Wavedashing, L-canceling, Melee's ledge physics, Melee dashdancing and all that? People got just that with PM and still aren't satisfied.

I like melee because I can play both defensively or aggressively, I don't have to just watch my opponent come back to the stage, and I can do combos. So yes, I can certainly imagine games that do not include those techniques yet still satisfy my requirements. But you must realize that those ATs are not just for flash in melee, they allowed players to either move better, pressure shields, or combo etc. That is why people liked them.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

No one in this thread is talking about 'Melee 2.0' except random people coming in and yelling that we are. I don't care if you know people who are making the argument, but purporting that we believe the same thing despite evidence to the contrary is being outright dishonest.



No, you are doing the classic strawman. In fact you began with 'attitudes like this' as if you are saying that anyone who is disappointed in the demo is childish and unreasonable. If you had read this thread or similar no one has mentioned they want every minute detail to be the same as Melee. Instead you come in here and act as if you can read our minds or that we are all secretly lying about what we want. When you respond in a thread it's best to actually respond to what people are talking about instead of this mythical message you seem to think we are broadcasting.

I also don't see how we are shooting ourselves in the foot by wanting them to make something more fast paced, with combos, edgeguards, and viable offensive play. The fact is that so far Smash 4 does not seem to be at all a balance between Melee and Brawl but instead is almost entirely inspired by Brawl. This forum is a fansite centered on competitive play, it should be expected that it is a disappointment to a lot of us.

Also the argument that we cannot be upset despite Nintendo doing something to maximize profits is ridiculous, there is a huge difference between understanding why they do something and being content with it.

The OP wants wavedashing, L-canceling, Melee-esque physics, etc. I'm having a very hard time seeing what I'm missing.

I'm not claiming that people are lying about what they want. Critics of Smash 4 are claiming that they want the previously mentioned Melee features. They may not want Melee 2 with new characters, but quite frankly I'm having a hard time telling what it is they want if it isn't that. Like I said before, I know that every individual has different views, but the message to the rest of the Smash community is an overwhelming "Melee 2.0 or gtfo". Again, you or even the OP may have different views, but my post was directed to the perceived attitude of the community.

The reason the "hardcore melee" community is shooting themselves in the foot is because they will never be happy unless things like wavedashing, etc. are in. If you really want a more competitive smash, get Smash 4 and play the hell out of For Glory mode. Host tournaments. Get the game out there. These are the things that will actually get Nintendo's attention. Complaining on a fan forum of like-minded people will do nothing.

Finally, to everyone accusing me of misrepresenting those who want a more Melee-esque SSB4, I'd like to ask, what do you want that's different than melee? Please, tell me what it is that you want makes it a distinct game.

 

[Gust14]

That's the problem with metagames based entirely around glitches. They get fixed and people whine, whine, whine. You people honestly think Sakurai had any idea how Wavedashing would effect the metagame? No. I doubt he even thought there'd be a metagame.

You people complaining that SSB4 is closer to Brawl because there's no Melee techs, where's the Brawl techs? Gone. Melee techs? Gone. Compare a techless Melee, a techless Brawl, and SSB4, and you'll see that the core mechanics of 4 are right between the two.

I think you meant to write combos but you wrote "glitches" somehow? weird. Yeah probably you didnt meant glitches because everyone and their dog knows by now that l-cancel and wd were programed in melee- But that dosent even matters because all that we want are combos, as in smash 64? and melee? and any fg?. I dont even play competitivly and ill take PM's FFS over brawls' any day

To the poster above: Combos, plain and simple. Smash styled combos, they are unique, fun and stylish. No need for wd.

 

[Niala]

The argument of ignorance that we can completely judge where the metagame will go based on one real match is what needs to go, IMO. Or that we even needed these movement options in the first place. Many would argue Melee is the least Smash Brosy entry, and they'd be right in the regard that the mechanics favor competitive play. You're looking in the completely wrong place if that's the kind of game you're looking for.

I had planned on just reading through this thread, but I do want to point out one thing regarding this. "You're looking in the completely wrong place if that's the kind of game you're looking for," is an unfortunate argument, whether it's true or not, because Smash is really the only game of it's kind. If people really enjoy the style, myself included, it's not unreasonable for them to want it to be competitive, and to be disappointed when it doesn't fulfill their desires. It's not like other fighters where, if you like the idea but it's not quite aggressive enough for you, for example, there are dozens of other entries in that series, and dozens of other fighters to choose from.

 

[Doser]

The OP wants wavedashing, L-canceling, Melee-esque physics, etc. I'm having a very hard time seeing what I'm missing.

You didn't comprehend the original post then. He explained why the ATs in melee facilitated the type of play he wanted, he doesn't have a cargo cult religion about the techniques in a vacuum.

Finally, to everyone accusing me of misrepresenting those who want a more Melee-esque SSB4, I'd like to ask, what do you want that's different than melee? Please, tell me what it is that you want makes it a distinct game.

I've already explained what I want in my previous posts, I don't think any of that requires it to be Melee at all. I am fine with no space animals at all, I'm fine with different stages, I'm fine with different combos, I'm fine with different physics so long as they let us be offensive, edgeguard, and combo etc.

 

[hariooo]

The OP wants wavedashing, L-canceling, Melee-esque physics, etc. I'm having a very hard time seeing what I'm missing.

I'm not claiming that people are lying about what they want. Critics of Smash 4 are claiming that they want the previously mentioned Melee features. They may not want Melee 2 with new characters, but quite frankly I'm having a hard time telling what it is they want if it isn't that. Like I said before, I know that every individual has different views, but the message to the rest of the Smash community is an overwhelming "Melee 2.0 or gtfo". Again, you or even the OP may have different views, but my post was directed to the perceived attitude of the community.

The reason the "hardcore melee" community is shooting themselves in the foot is because they will never be happy unless things like wavedashing, etc. are in. If you really want a more competitive smash, get Smash 4 and play the hell out of For Glory mode. Host tournaments. Get the game out there. These are the things that will actually get Nintendo's attention. Complaining on a fan forum of like-minded people will do nothing.

Finally, to everyone accusing me of misrepresenting those who want a more Melee-esque SSB4, I'd like to ask, what do you want that's different than melee? Please, tell me what it is that you want makes it a distinct game.

You're missing the part where you're even pretending to have an honest conversation. In the OP, he mentions it'd be nice to have l-cancelling or REDUCED LAG ON AERIALS. Wavedashing is nowhere in the OP. So while I'm sure it's easier for you to be outraged if you just consider anyone who disagrees with you a melee elitist without taking a moment to think it through, it's just not true.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

I had planned on just reading through this thread, but I do want to point out one thing regarding this. "You're looking in the completely wrong place if that's the kind of game you're looking for," is an unfortunate argument, whether it's true or not, because Smash is really the only game of it's kind. If people really enjoy the style, myself included, it's not unreasonable for them to want it to be competitive, and to be disappointed when it doesn't fulfill their desires. It's not like other fighters where, if you like the idea but it's not quite aggressive enough for you, for example, there are dozens of other entries in that series, and dozens of other fighters to choose from.

Honestly, I'm surprised an independent developer hasn't picked up the concept and made something like smash but more competitive. It'd be a goldmine for an indie or a smaller studio.

 

[Ulevo]

Explain yourself, because I am obviously too ignorant on the subject.

Lolno, plenty of Melee players hate PM because it's not exactly Melee. If I'm blind, you're def.

Sure. Pay attention.

Since I'm not going to throw an encyclopedia at you of Melee mechanics, since that would be too long, I'll stick to a more pertinent topic. People are complaining about Smash Wii U because it's pacing is slow and resembles Brawl. Well why is Brawls pacing slow? Obviously when we say slow, we're talking by comparison to Melee, so let's look at what makes the game play fast.

1. Momentum.

In Melee, if you run out of a dash and jump, you maintain the momentum from that run as you transition in to the air. This makes following up on combos easier, more fluent, gives the game speed, and makes approach options for characters easier, especially for characters with no projectiles or disjointed hitboxes, like Captain Falcon. This is not in Brawl. All momentum is halted the moment you enter the air in to a stagnant speed that always remains constant. This is obviously not ideal because it makes approaching harder, and slows down the pace.

2. Fall speed, fast fall speed.

Obviously the values of these are different per game. They are not the same as gravity and weight, which are more relevant to things like how far a character goes during knock back. These elements are more relevant to the speed at which a character can move. If a character can transition from the ground to the air, and back down to the ground again, it makes the air to ground game faster. It also makes maneuvering around platforms faster too.

3. Dash cancelling.

When you commit to a run in a game like Brawl, your options are very limited because you can only do a dash attack, an up smash, a non-neutral special, shield, or take tot he air. While this is seemingly a lot of options, being able to utilize tactics like tilts, standard attacks, side and down smashes, and standing grabs out of a run allow for safer options and more utility in how you approach a defending player. And because Brawl doesn't have Wavedashing, meaning you can't reposition yourself mid dash (you have to commit), dash cancelling is an important element to maintain. Of course, it's not there.

4. Shields are dumb.

Brawls shields were overpowered. Simply put. The only way for you to avoid punishment from large grab hitboxes, out of shield options, and chain grabs was to space properly against the shield. What this means is that again, you can't commit to movement options that are faster, or more aggressive, otherwise you will be punished. This is an aspect people don't think about when evaluating Brawls overall speed.

5. No dash dancing.

Once thing that dash dancing does is it allows you to forsake the idea of committing to an unsafe option from a perspective of frame advantage in favor of just psychologically winning out over your opponent. If you dash dance in place, you extend the range of your hit box because it means you can commit to a dash attack (or a momentum based aerial assult) at any time. Even if it is an unsafe thing to do on block, the fact that you have the option to utilize this at a moments notice and your opponent has to predict or react quicker than usual creates safe openings in unsafe circumstances, rewarding faster gameplay.

6. Hit lag is different.

If I hit you with an attack and it keeps you in freeze frame as if I hit you with a Samus Charge shot, that's going to slow down the tempo of the game considerably.

7. Ledge cancelling.

Simply put, there are a lot of techniques you can utilize in Melee, such as aerials, that can have their landing lag cancelling while maintaining momentum and positioning just by moving in a direction towards a ledge as an aerial or move is used. This was cut from Brawl, and makes it yet again harder to cut corners and speed up gameplay.

8: Frames of moves and movement.

When you increase the amount of frames it takes to do things like a roll, that slows down gameplay. Pretty simple. It's obvious that moves that were previously fast have been given up time on start up, hit box duration, and cooldown recovery. Globally this seems to be a trend. Obviously I don't have the numbers in front of me to prove that to you for Smash Wii U, but you don't need numbers to see it happening. It's obvious, especially if you've played for a while and know how many frames are in x move. I can already see plenty of moves in Smash Wii U that have unnecessarily long durations. Brawl was kind of bad for this but I really see it here.

All of these things contribute to whether or not a game can be played a quick pace the way Melee can be. There's plenty more than that can too, like jump cancelled moves on characters like Fox, or double jump cancels for Ness and Yoshi. Wavedashing helps along too, but L-Cancelling is pivotal because it prevents characters with heavy recovery lag like Bowser from being condemned in to a status as terrible characters. Even if the implementation of this design is wrong, the fact remains that the landing lag on moves in Melee is ultimately lower.

 

[Hyruleslink]

Smash Wii U is going to be awesome. I am not impressed with the reasoning this game is "unimpressive".
Good day good sir. I respectfully disagree and bid you adieu.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Honestly, I'm surprised an independent developer hasn't picked up the concept and made something like smash but more competitive. It'd be a goldmine for an indie or a smaller studio.

My friends and I indie dev, and we considered fighting games but here is something to remember:
1.) competitive balance takes time, time is money
2.) fighting games don't usually make you a solid enough return on investment
3.) fighting games don't usually make you a solid enough return on investment, meaning its hard to pitch them to companies
4.) competitive balance is hard to do because as shown in this thread, competitive balance is a tricky subject to tackle
5.) the fighting game market is hard to penetrate.


Edit: On-topic: I am a relatively new Melee competitive player and I totally get what these guys are saying, the pace and flow of Melee just lends itself to being watched and played competitively. Brawl meanwhile has a flow and pace that can be competitive under the right circumstances, but those circumstances IMO have yet to be found. From what I see with smash 4 is that it too has a pace and flow that may lend itself to competitive play, but the question is will that flow be found quickly and thus let the game last. Or will it be found late, or never at all, and cripple the game like Brawl? So far it sees like the latter. And that is unfortunate.

 

[Joe73191]

not having wave dashing is fine if we have dash dancing, dash cancels that can lead into attacks quickly. Yet we don't even have those! No l-cancel is fine if we have cut in aerials landing lag. (it looks like this is pretty good)

What we want is movement options, combo options and not a floaty feel. Watching videos of the matches and playing them I see floaty characters. (Just watch Wii Fit Trainer on Wiley's castle to see what I mean) Less movement options as I explained above and less combo options since we see the lag after grabs and other various moves.

Everything we want was left out. And people wonder why we complain and call it the next brawl and not competitive? Granted they still have time to fix it.

I will say I do have hope and I had fun playing it. I just won't guarantee that it will be competitive.

 

[Calmsmasher]

Well this thread devolved into near cancerous levels and to think all this over what essentially was public beta test.

 

[Ulevo]

Well this thread devolved into near cancerous levels and to think all this over what essentially was public advertisement.

Fixed it for you friend.

 

[GhettoPlab]

I like melee because I can play both defensively or aggressively, I don't have to just watch my opponent come back to the stage, and I can do combos. So yes, I can certainly imagine games that do not include those techniques yet still satisfy my requirements. But you must realize that those ATs are not just for flash in melee, they allowed players to either move better, pressure shields, or combo etc. That is why people liked them.

You like Melee because you can play offensively AND defensively?

GUESS WHAT

You CAN in Brawl too. The fact that you are actually able to play offensively if YOU want proves this. You also don't have to just watch your opponent come back to the stage. There is nothing that forces you to watch, so how do you HAVE to do it?

Brawl satisfied 2 out of your 3 requirements and you are here bashing it?

 

[Doser]

You clearly don't understand Brawl if you think playing offensively is nearly as viable as playing safe and defensive. You also are mistaken if you think edgeguarding is actually done by anyone but MK on a regular basis in Brawl.

 

[JV5Chris]

what do you want that's different than melee? Please, tell me what it is that you want makes it a distinct game.

New movement, approach, and follow-up options that encourage players to get really creative with their playstyle and kills. Basically the exact opposite of what PPMD discovered with Fox, where often mindlessly throwing out one move (up-tilt) was often his best course of action. The moment to moment gameplay of Smash 4 could certainly stand to be a lot more exciting than that.

 

[Ulevo]

You like Melee because you can play offensively AND defensively?

GUESS WHAT

You CAN in Brawl too. The fact that you are actually able to play offensively if YOU want proves this. You also don't have to just watch your opponent come back to the stage. There is nothing that forces you to watch, so how do you HAVE to do it?

Brawl satisfied 2 out of your 3 requirements and you are here bashing it?

Except that's not what we're talking about within the context of competitive Smash. We don't want the ability to choose to play offensively (you can obviously do whatever the heck you want), we want to be able to be rewarded for both forms of play. Currently offensive play is not rewarded, and you are punished for attempting it through stronger defensive options.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You clearly don't understand Brawl if you think playing offensively is nearly as viable as playing safe and defensive. You also are mistaken if you think edgeguarding is actually done by anyone but MK on a regular basis in Brawl.

uhhh....this is not true for a lot of characters. As Lucario you need to actually actively do this since for a lot of characters this is where he needs to take advantage of them.

 

[ChickenCarm]

I went to Best Buy and watched about 10 matches (couldn't play line was way too long)

I think the game looks great. It looks much faster in person rather than watching it being streamed. I think the new ledge mechanic is a great idea because it adds greater depth to the edge game and people won't be KO'd at 35% damage just because some other guy is grabbing the ledge (its kinda cheap).

The graphics are amazing and it looks so crisp. The one thing I found interesting is that Fox can do his side B than jump and do his up B after. He has a ridiculous amount of range for getting back on the stage.

 

[Violenceman]

High hitstun and Brawl-like knockback so far make for a sluggish (but not quite Brawl-sluggish) 1v1 kind of scenario, but most throws and attacks (barring Fox U-Smash among a couple of others) seem pretty meaty. Made me think of doubles. Launching speeds seem really slow when compared to PM and Melee (not much into Brawl, so I'm not sure how it compares in that regard), so I figured that with the combination of heavy hits, high knockback, but lower launching speeds, that bouncing enemies off of one another for your teammates would prove to be a better doubles setting than even in Melee, as if the game was geared for it? Smash 4 seems slowed down enough to the point where Doubles could be more-easily followed, not nearly as crazy and haphazard as it tends to sometimes feel. Obviously the game seems to be geared for four players, so, who knows. Maybe team battle will make a huge comeback with Smash 4?

Why is this post not getting more love? Instead of bemoaning about how Smash 4 will not work with the meta-game developed for previous iterations, or complaining about the people doing said bemoaning, this guy is actually trying to discover what kind of meta-game would work for a competitive Smash 4, given what we've seen and played.

Seriously. THIS is the kind of musings what I want to read more of.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Why is this post not getting more love? Instead of bemoaning about how Smash 4 will not work with the meta-game developed for previous iterations, or complaining about the people doing said bemoaning, this guy is actually trying to discover what kind of meta-game would work for a competitive Smash 4, given what we've seen and played.

Seriously. THIS is the kind of musings what I want to read more of.

Probably because doubles aren't that big in competitive smash? Which kind if sucks, because I love doubles and who knows maybe smash four becomes the competitive smash of choice for doubles while melee stays for 1v1? There could probably be a good amount of viewership for doubles. My first tournament ever was doubles and I enjoyed it to know end, there was something about working in tandem with my partner that just felt right.

 

[RODO]

I just want to game to be fun to play AND watch. If there aren't as many combos then it could be slightly boring to watch.

 

[Fortress]

Why is this post not getting more love? Instead of bemoaning about how Smash 4 will not work with the meta-game developed for previous iterations, or complaining about the people doing said bemoaning, this guy is actually trying to discover what kind of meta-game would work for a competitive Smash 4, given what we've seen and played.

Seriously. THIS is the kind of musings what I want to read more of.

Click on me, and join in the positive discussion in that case.

Smash 4 isn't quite what I would like to play in Singles, but I have two other Smash games where I do. Why whine and complain about Smash 4 not having the gameplay that I'm used to when I have two other games that do? So I'd like to work with what we're given in Smash 4, and I think the 4-player scene is what it's going to excel in, doubles specifically. Smash 4 can be the game that succeeds with team battles.

 

[Reila]

Man, as much as I like Melee, the Smash community (or better, some people in the community) do their best to make me hate the game and the people who praise it. I thought, for a moment, that only Brawl would be a victim of being trashed by this community, even though it is actually a terrific game. Seems like I am terrible guesser, uh?

You know, Nintendo shouldn't change anything in Smash Bros 4 to please this community. It is their game, they have the right to make it they it was initially envisioned to be. Don't like it? Stop playing, then. End of story. That is what I will do, if for some reason, I don't like Smash 4. I can always keep playing Brawl or simply abandon Smash Bros and focus on other games. It is not that hard. You people expect too much from a game that isn't even supposed to be a fighting game (or at least, Sakurai doesn't view it as one and while I am not a worshiper of him, I totally agree with this perspective).

Anyways, I am still excited for the game. I am even considering not picking the 3DS version anymore (since they didn't announce Majora's Mask 3D, I have no reason to buy a 3DS again) and buy a Wii U with the game together, once it is released. Fun times ahead.

 

[mimgrim]

I'm not going to read this whole thread. I can imagine what a lot of it is about. I'm just going to say what I said in the Smash 4 Social thread;

Ok so I just got back from the Smash Fest. I stood in line for four hours to play 2 minuets and watch other people play. And I can definitely say that I can't make a strong opinion, good or bad, on the game.

Only 2 mins, FFA, items, and uncomfortable controller wasn't really the best experience to get a feel of the game. I was unable to test out anything I wanted. So yea, I have no strong impressions either way from the demo. And I don't think I am going to go through that again for Saturday, because it just doesn't seem worth it to do it again for another 2 mins.

I'm going to have to wait for the final version to really comment on it.

 

[LancerStaff]

I think you meant to write combos but you wrote "glitches" somehow? weird. Yeah probably you didnt meant glitches because everyone and their dog knows by now that l-cancel and wd were programed in melee- But that dosent even matters because all that we want are combos, as in smash 64? and melee? and any fg?. I dont even play competitivly and ill take PM's FFS over brawls' any day

To the poster above: Combos, plain and simple. Smash styled combos, they are unique, fun and stylish. No need for wd.

Less combos then Melee, more then Brawl, people still complain. And when I say Melee revolves around glitches, I mean that they're used almost every waking moment.

I had planned on just reading through this thread, but I do want to point out one thing regarding this. "You're looking in the completely wrong place if that's the kind of game you're looking for," is an unfortunate argument, whether it's true or not, because Smash is really the only game of it's kind. If people really enjoy the style, myself included, it's not unreasonable for them to want it to be competitive, and to be disappointed when it doesn't fulfill their desires. It's not like other fighters where, if you like the idea but it's not quite aggressive enough for you, for example, there are dozens of other entries in that series, and dozens of other fighters to choose from.

People played it in a way not wanted by those in charge, and now it's gone and people feel entitled. Peh.

Sure. Pay attention.

Since I'm not going to throw an encyclopedia at you of Melee mechanics, since that would be too long, I'll stick to a more pertinent topic. People are complaining about Smash Wii U because it's pacing is slow and resembles Brawl. Well why is Brawls pacing slow? Obviously when we say slow, we're talking by comparison to Melee, so let's look at what makes the game play fast.

1. Momentum.

In Melee, if you run out of a dash and jump, you maintain the momentum from that run as you transition in to the air. This makes following up on combos easier, more fluent, gives the game speed, and makes approach options for characters easier, especially for characters with no projectiles or disjointed hitboxes, like Captain Falcon. This is not in Brawl. All momentum is halted the moment you enter the air in to a stagnant speed that always remains constant. This is obviously not ideal because it makes approaching harder, and slows down the pace.

2. Fall speed, fast fall speed.

Obviously the values of these are different per game. They are not the same as gravity and weight, which are more relevant to things like how far a character goes during knock back. These elements are more relevant to the speed at which a character can move. If a character can transition from the ground to the air, and back down to the ground again, it makes the air to ground game faster. It also makes maneuvering around platforms faster too.

3. Dash cancelling.

When you commit to a run in a game like Brawl, your options are very limited because you can only do a dash attack, an up smash, a non-neutral special, shield, or take tot he air. While this is seemingly a lot of options, being able to utilize tactics like tilts, standard attacks, side and down smashes, and standing grabs out of a run allow for safer options and more utility in how you approach a defending player. And because Brawl doesn't have Wavedashing, meaning you can't reposition yourself mid dash (you have to commit), dash cancelling is an important element to maintain. Of course, it's not there.

4. Shields are dumb.

Brawls shields were overpowered. Simply put. The only way for you to avoid punishment from large grab hitboxes, out of shield options, and chain grabs was to space properly against the shield. What this means is that again, you can't commit to movement options that are faster, or more aggressive, otherwise you will be punished. This is an aspect people don't think about when evaluating Brawls overall speed.

5. No dash dancing.

Once thing that dash dancing does is it allows you to forsake the idea of committing to an unsafe option from a perspective of frame advantage in favor of just psychologically winning out over your opponent. If you dash dance in place, you extend the range of your hit box because it means you can commit to a dash attack (or a momentum based aerial assult) at any time. Even if it is an unsafe thing to do on block, the fact that you have the option to utilize this at a moments notice and your opponent has to predict or react quicker than usual creates safe openings in unsafe circumstances, rewarding faster gameplay.

6. Hit lag is different.

If I hit you with an attack and it keeps you in freeze frame as if I hit you with a Samus Charge shot, that's going to slow down the tempo of the game considerably.

7. Ledge cancelling.

Simply put, there are a lot of techniques you can utilize in Melee, such as aerials, that can have their landing lag cancelling while maintaining momentum and positioning just by moving in a direction towards a ledge as an aerial or move is used. This was cut from Brawl, and makes it yet again harder to cut corners and speed up gameplay.

All of these things contribute to whether or not a game can be played a quick pace the way Melee can be. There's plenty more that can too, like jump cancelled moves on characters like Fox, or double jump cancels for Ness and Yoshi. Wavedashing helps along too, but L-Cancelling is pivotal because it prevents characters with heavy recovery lag like Bowser from being condemned in to a status as terrible characters. Even if the implementation of this design is wrong, the fact remains that the landing lag on moves in Melee is ultimately lower.

1. Increase overall air speed to closer match character's ground speed. Problem solved. We've only seen half the cast, so you're making an early judgement.

2. Character's falling speed was way to much for casuals. Ever notice how casual players rarely jump off to intercept a recovery? This attitude carried over from Melee to Brawl. Sakurai screwed up cutting off a major part off SSB from the majority of the players. This would of been changed in Melee 2 anyway if Nintendo was in charge, so I don't see the point in complaining.

Yeah, Melee isn't just L-canceling and Wavedashing, but alot of the things you mentioned can still be handled. You're still making too early a judgement.

 

[Fortress]

You know, Nintendo shouldn't change anything in Smash Bros 4 to please this community. It is their game, they have the right to make it they it was initially envisioned to be. Don't like it? Stop playing, then. End of story. That is what I will do, if for some reason, I don't like Smash 4. I can always keep playing Brawl or simply abandon Smash Bros and focus on other games. It is not that hard. You people expect too much from a game that isn't even supposed to be a fighting game (or at least, Sakurai doesn't view it as one and while I am not a worshiper of him, I totally agree with this perspective).]

So much this. Why should I, as a PM/Melee-orientated player, whine and complain about Sm4sh being its own entity with its own rules, physics, and playstyles when I've got other games available to me that have what I'm looking for? Hell, I stopped trying to look at Smash 4 with any of my old expectations, and look at it entirely through a Doubles perspective now. I think the engine is perfectly-suited for it where PM and Melee sort of tanked with it before.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

http://nintendoenthusiast.com/artic...bros-wii-u-perspective-competitive-player-e3/

This might be relevant.

 

[MrHazuki]

The argument "You only want Melee 2.0" is very arrogant. Even if, as Ulevo stated, it would be awesome, that isn't up for discussion.
I want a game pointing in another direction than Brawl. Something new. All sequels in the SSB-series have been vastly different from their predecessors. Brawl and Sm4sh seem too much alike.

 

[Jiggy37]

All aspects considered, Brawl Minus is the gameplay model I like most for the series. Go over-the-top. Make everything more insane to play and watch, not less, but instead of that insanity depending on "hidden" techs, it's all there as natural components of the characters' moves. Depth and versatility can come from the characters, not only the core physics.

In Smash 4, so far the returning characters' moves seem pretty traditional, which means it is up to the physics to create a fast-paced game. The top priorities are hitstun and universally low landing lag. If the characters were versatile enough, I'd consider these the only priorities. As-is, though, third place goes to aerial momentum and fourth place is shields not being insanely powerful. Without these in place, we can still have a B or B+ game that I'll have fun with, but not the masterpiece I'd like.

My hope is that things turn out well, but my expectations are... tempered.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Correction: Luigi, TL, Sheik, and Yoshi are playable. You should've seen how happy @aMSaRedyoshi was when he jumped out of his shield! You can pivot ftilt/fsmash out of dashes and you can ftilt/fsmash near the end of the initial dash. Many throws have immense knockback. Air dodge spam is way more punishable than the previous iteration of Smash, buffered defensive maneuvers/shielding after landing are gone. You shield out of full dash animation, but not initial dash. Shield release allows you access to all ground normals after blocking.

Source:
https://twitter.com/xD1x

They're finding more stuff. Not sure if these change too much. I'm more of a... casual-competitive(?) player, so I wouldn't really know either way.

 

[Niala]

You clearly don't understand Brawl if you think playing offensively is nearly as viable as playing safe and defensive. You also are mistaken if you think edgeguarding is actually done by anyone but MK on a regular basis in Brawl.

Perhaps I have too much freedom in this regard, being undisputedly the best Brawl player in my city, but I've never had any problems playing aggressive, nor comboing effectively, actually. In fact, just this past weekend I played a Brawl tournament where I 0-death'd somebody in what was effectively a combo. Obviously if he had been a better player it wouldn't have worked as easily, but the player I was up against said he couldn't figure out a way out.

Not that you're wrong, really, the game promotes playing defensively to be effective and rewarded for your actions (which I don't personally see as a bad thing but understand that most people do.) Edgeguarding is really only done commonly by MK, that much is very true, but again I don't think edgeguarding is necessarily very fair to the extent Melee offered it. I think the majority of the fight should take place on the stage, not having the goal to get somebody off the stage only because you have better options of keeping them off it than they have getting back on.

However, There are lots of things that Brawl can offer competitively that I think are overlooked because the game was so rejected by much of the competitive community. I've had much more fun playing Brawl than I ever did with Melee, and I play it as much competitively as those who play Melee do.

I'm not sure how relevant my opinion is here, since I've done to Melee what some others have done to Brawl (i.e. dismissed it on authority the other is better.) But maybe that makes it more valuable, too, a completely different perspective.

I went to Best Buy and watched about 10 matches (couldn't play line was way too long)

I think the game looks great. It looks much faster in person rather than watching it being streamed. I think the new ledge mechanic is a great idea because it adds greater depth to the edge game and people won't be KO'd at 35% damage just because some other guy is grabbing the ledge (its kinda cheap).

The graphics are amazing and it looks so crisp. The one thing I found interesting is that Fox can do his side B than jump and do his up B after. He has a ridiculous amount of range for getting back on the stage.

IS THIS REAL LIFE?

http://nintendoenthusiast.com/artic...bros-wii-u-perspective-competitive-player-e3/

This might be relevant.

This article is perfect, imo. This is literally everything I noticed in the invitational that turned me off the game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Btw that fox thing is real, he can UpB after a SideB.

 

[Saito]

http://nintendoenthusiast.com/artic...bros-wii-u-perspective-competitive-player-e3/

This might be relevant.

OOH.

My hype meter is coming back just a bit

 

[BridgesWithTurtles]

I'm not going to read this whole thread. I can imagine what a lot of it is about. I'm just going to say what I said in the Smash 4 Social thread;

Ok so I just got back from the Smash Fest. I stood in line for four hours to play 2 minuets and watch other people play. And I can definitely say that I can't make a strong opinion, good or bad, on the game.

Only 2 mins, FFA, items, and uncomfortable controller wasn't really the best experience to get a feel of the game. I was unable to test out anything I wanted. So yea, I have no strong impressions either way from the demo. And I don't think I am going to go through that again for Saturday, because it just doesn't seem worth it to do it again for another 2 mins.

I'm going to have to wait for the final version to really comment on it.

I came into the thread to post my thoughts, but this is exactly what I wanted to say. I will add that I felt that the game was still too floaty and that lag was still too high in order to initiate combos, but perhaps my character choice (Villager) was an exception, and not the rule. The other difference is that I will be attending the Saturday event as well, even if moreso to engage with other fans than in anticipation of playing the game again. I actually didn't have very much fun with the demo. FFA with items on and an unfamiliar controller made me feel more aggravated than entertained.

 

[HeroMystic]

http://nintendoenthusiast.com/artic...bros-wii-u-perspective-competitive-player-e3/

This might be relevant.

I recommend for everyone to read that. A very good, objective read.