Event - MLG Anaheim 2014 So now that we know MLG hosts ridiculous smash tournaments...

[ShadowLink84]

Also, to bring it up again and stay remotely on topic: Frigate Orpheon should replace Delphino as the 9th starter. Less janky.

Discuss.

Nothing to discuss, I agree completely.

 

[AvaricePanda]

i agree as well.

I also guess I agree with 9 stage starter over 7 (either's fine IMO) but I still want to know what specifically makes it better. If it's making match-ups start on a more "neutral" stage for the match-up, I get that, but some people have said it makes some characters in mid-low tier better starting out and I don't see how that's the case. If it is, someone please name specific characters. And if that's not even the argument then whatever lol.

 

[Raziek]

Nothing to discuss, I agree completely.

Well that's no fun, someone should disagree so I can destroy them for it.

 

[mikeHAZE]

*twitch*

Hurk---gahhah

*dies*

I really wish there was a way to revoke posting rights upon proof of the poster's idiocy.

T-BLOCK, GET ON THIS.

Also, to bring it up again and stay remotely on topic: Frigate Orpheon should replace Delphino as the 9th starter. Less janky.

Discuss.

i hope this is jokes

 

[Deleted member]

What's the opposition to people bringing in as many CRTs as possible to be used in the tournaments? Eg: If there are 8 CRTs, they will be used in Round of 16 and up.

 

[T-block]

That's debatable. I think I like Delfino better than Frigate.

Lack of edge hurts a lot of characters.

 

[ShadowLink84]

What's the opposition to people bringing in as many CRTs as possible to be used in the tournaments? Eg: If there are 8 CRTs, they will be used in Round of 16 and up.

I don't believe you're allowed to bring your own TV to the venue.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't believe you're allowed to bring your own TV to the venue.

Why not?

10 Why nots.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

*twitch*

Hurk---gahhah

*dies*

I really wish there was a way to revoke posting rights upon proof of the poster's idiocy.

T-BLOCK, GET ON THIS.

Also, to bring it up again and stay remotely on topic: Frigate Orpheon should replace Delphino as the 9th starter. Less janky.

Discuss.

I don't see how you can be a Marth main and advocate one of his worst stages as a starter.

@ SL I'd respond but I don't want to get into. But if you have trouble finding the gspot I feel bad for you son.

 

[Raziek]

i agree as well.

I also guess I agree with 9 stage starter over 7 (either's fine IMO) but I still want to know what specifically makes it better. If it's making match-ups start on a more "neutral" stage for the match-up, I get that, but some people have said it makes some characters in mid-low tier better starting out and I don't see how that's the case. If it is, someone please name specific characters. And if that's not even the argument then whatever lol.

The main reason to use 9 over 7 is because the extra two options mean two extra strikes.

The 7-start list that I like is

FD
BF
SV
YI
Lylat
Halberd
Orpheon

The 9-starter that I like is the above 7 plus PS1 and Castle Siege.

The reason I like 9 over 7 is because people actually have to deal with the additional stages. When I experimented with 7, most matches ended up striking both Halberd and Orpheon, but with 9, the stages are actually getting used a significant amount.

9 also lends itself to a great deal more flexibility depending on the match-up, and most importantly (IMO), the player's SPECIFIC PREFERENCE.

9 gives you enough options that you can be sure both players will end up on a stage they are comfortable on. 4 strikes is more than enough to do that, and if you aren't comfortable on at least half of the stages in the list, you should PROBABLY fix that.

 

[Mic_128]

@ Puu They'd most likely need to be safety tagged, plus there's insurance issues (if it gets stolen/damaged/someone electrocutes themselves with it somehow)

It's a lot easier to say 'Just use ours'

 

[ShadowLink84]

Why not?

10 Why nots.

I honestly don't remember the reason for it.
MLG doesn't allow you to bring in your own TV.

Edit: Marc knew apparently.

I don't see how you can be a Marth main and advocate one of his worst stages as a starter.

Easy, I am not biased towards my character

@ SL I'd respond but I don't want to get into.

Please don't, your arguments just devolve to you crying.

But if you have trouble finding the gspot I feel bad for you son.

*rolls up sleeves*
The G spot is actually in the front wall of the ******. It is spongy in feeling and varies in size and location for women.
Now the thin g is, the G spot is not some magic button. The clitoris is actually the magic button because of its sensitivity. The G-spot can either invoke a powerful orgasm in women, or it may just make them feel like peeing.

Furthermore, knowledge in regards to the G-spot isn't all too common, so dont try to be smart gigolo. ~_^

 

[Raziek]

I don't see how you can be a Marth main and advocate one of his worst stages as a starter.

@ SL I'd respond but I don't want to get into. But if you have trouble finding the gspot I feel bad for you son.

I advocate it because I'm NOT BIASED TOWARDS MY CHARACTER.

Holy crap, imagine that.

Anyway, here's my brief outline on Orpheon's issues, copypastad from my topic in stage discussion.

Frigate Orpheon

This stage is one that gets an unusually bad rap, considering how neutral it is in the long run.

First issue: FD Lip Syndrome. Won't explain it again.

The second, and largest issue is the lack of a recoverable platform on the right side of the first transition. This is an interesting element of strategy that is what I feel makes this stage shine as a starter with definitive counter-pick elements.

This type of mechanic is one we have tradtionally dealt with in the past, in this case, from melee. Mute City was a legal counterpick, and it had an edge that displayed the same characteristics. The obvious solution, is to play on the left side of the stage if you wish to avoid the hazard, on the right if you try to use it.

Characters with tether recoveries, like Ivy and ZSS, can strike the stage. This is the whole point of having more strikes. Because they do, they can strike it and still be able to defend themselves from other counterpicks.

Then comes the flip. This one is really a no-brainer. The stage sets off a loud siren, and gives you a few seconds warning to deal with the flip. If you jump towards the center of the stage, you will never die to this. Much like the halberd hazards, you can play either offensively or defensively, to take advantage of the transitions.

The second transition of the stage is incredibly neutral. No flaws whatsoever in the general structure, and the pop-in platforms are much like the platform on Yoshi's Island. You can't always count on it, but it will occasionally save you. In addition, fighting on the platform is yet another offense/defense option. Not a reason to ban it.

This considered, I don't really understand why Frigate has the reputation it does, and it should be accepted in both the 7 and 9 starter sets.

When compared to Frigate Orpheon, it becomes clear that the water, multiple walk-offs, constantly changing blastzones, walls, and other stage hazards are FAR more intrusive than the flip and the ledge.

inb4ZSS/PT/Tethercharacters

Characters with tether recoveries, like Ivy and ZSS, can strike the stage. This is the whole point of having more strikes. Because they do, they can strike it and still be able to defend themselves from other counterpicks.

Edit: hah, I forgot you mained Marth as well SL. *highfive for not bias*

 

[Deleted member]

@ Puu They'd most likely need to be safety tagged, plus there's insurance issues (if it gets stolen/damaged/someone electrocutes themselves with it somehow)

It's a lot easier to say 'Just use ours'

What if people bring in the CRTs if they sign waiver forms or something saying that they take full responsibility for it?

I think the extra price of having to get safety tags or something would definitely be far less than the price of HD TVs.

 

[King~]

i believe they said it was because the want to be uniform, and mlg is company they wanna look good

cant do that with a bunch of random old CRTs around

 

[Mic_128]

What if people bring in the CRTs if they sign waiver forms or something saying that they take full responsibility for it?

I think the extra price of having to get safety tags or something would definitely be far less than the price of HD TVs.

You'll have to take it up with them. I'm just saying the likely reason to say no.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I honestly don't remember the reason for it.
MLG doesn't allow you to bring in your own TV.

Edit: Marc knew apparently.



Easy, I am not biased towards my character



Please don't, your arguments just devolve to you crying.





*rolls up sleeves*
The G spot is actually in the front wall of the ******. It is spongy in feeling and varies in size and location for women.
Now the thin g is, the G spot is not some magic button. The clitoris is actually the magic button because of its sensitivity. The G-spot can either invoke a powerful orgasm in women, or it may just make them feel like peeing.

Furthermore, knowledge in regards to the G-spot isn't all too common, so dont try to be smart gigolo. ~_^

I advocate it because I'm NOT BIASED TOWARDS MY CHARACTER.

Holy crap, imagine that.

Anyway, here's my brief outline on Orpheon's issues, copypastad from my topic in stage discussion.



When compared to Frigate Orpheon, it becomes clear that the water, multiple walk-offs, constantly changing blastzones, walls, and other stage hazards are FAR more intrusive than the flip and the ledge.

inb4ZSS/PT/Tethercharacters



Edit: hah, I forgot you mained Marth as well SL. *highfive for not bias*

Where is the fair play at? If it's a starter and the stage adversely effect my character then why should it even be a starter?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Glenn Beck doesn't tell me how to think. I just like listening to him because a lot of the things he says are true. Not to say I take his word as law however, I think he's a good source to listen to about politics. Watch him them form your opinion then read a book.


So now universal health care isn't a socialist practice....I see thanks for clearing that up.

are you telling me to form my opinion solely on what glen beck says then look at all other opinions after with a biased view?

and lol universal health care is new liberalism take a political science class will you?

edit: sorry i'll get back to the stages

 

[Deleted member]

@King: If that's really the reason then that's something I definitely think they should reconsider. It doesn't seem like something that's in their character though, I'm sure they understand that the people who will actually go to the tournaments prefer to play with the best quality possible. The only people who will truely care about it looking "uniform" are probably the people who don't really play too much anyways and wouldn't be interested in tournament play.

@Mic: I wouldn't be the one to take it up with them, I don't even really play (just took an interest in the thread). I'm sure they have some reason for it though, I doubt this isn't something they know about.

 

[Raziek]

Where is the fair play at? If it's a starter and the stage adversely effect my character then why should it even be a starter?

I don't even understand what you're asking here. I recommend the stage because it is better than the alternatives, and does not heavily polarize the starter list in any way, since it isn't adding yet another flat/plat stage.

How could you possibly not understand that we recommend it based on the stage list, not our own character bias?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I don't even understand what you're asking here. I recommend the stage because it is better than the alternatives, and does not heavily polarize the starter list in any way, since it isn't adding yet another flat/plat stage.

How could you possibly not understand that we recommend it based on the stage list, not our own character bias?

Well if the starter are supposed to promote fair play how does a stage like Frigate promote fair player where the lack of a ledge on the right side cripples a lot of character.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Well if the starter are supposed to promote fair play how does a stage like Frigate promote fair player where the lack of a ledge on the right side cripples a lot of character.

That would be an issue if there were no stage strikes available.
You really should not end up on Frigate Orpheon if it harms your character due to the ability to strike it.

 

[Deleted member]

Well if the starter are supposed to promote fair play how does a stage like Frigate promote fair player where the lack of a ledge on the right side cripples a lot of character.

Now that I've seen the light, I can understand why this point is wrong.

To quote about a thousand people from before:

Starter stages are not meant to be neutral stages, as there are no neutral stages.

WOOO!!! I'm learning (assuming the above is correct).

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

That's debatable. I think I like Delfino better than Frigate.

Lack of edge hurts a lot of characters.

yes but those characters can strike that stage, with DI you should never really be recovering into it from under the platform you should be landing on it.

It also helps a different type of character, delfino is emulated by halberd and castle siege.

 

[Raziek]

Well if the starter are supposed to promote fair play how does a stage like Frigate promote fair player where the lack of a ledge on the right side cripples a lot of character.

Apparently you didn't read my post closely enough, so I'll repost the relevant information.

The second, and largest issue is the lack of a recoverable platform on the right side of the first transition. This is an interesting element of strategy that is what I feel makes this stage shine as a starter with definitive counter-pick elements.

This type of mechanic is one we have tradtionally dealt with in the past, in this case, from melee. Mute City was a legal counterpick, and it had an edge that displayed the same characteristics. The obvious solution, is to play on the left side of the stage if you wish to avoid the hazard, on the right if you try to use it.

Characters with tether recoveries, like Ivy and ZSS, can strike the stage. This is the whole point of having more strikes. Because they do, they can strike it and still be able to defend themselves from other counterpicks.

Furthermore, crippling tether recoveries (which isn't even that true) is no worse than crippling anyone who isn't Dedede or MK (In Delfino's case), right?

 

[T-block]

i agree as well.

I also guess I agree with 9 stage starter over 7 (either's fine IMO) but I still want to know what specifically makes it better. If it's making match-ups start on a more "neutral" stage for the match-up, I get that, but some people have said it makes some characters in mid-low tier better starting out and I don't see how that's the case. If it is, someone please name specific characters. And if that's not even the argument then whatever lol.

I think I've only ever claimed that it makes the first game fairer. My earlier post contains pretty much every reason I have for more starters.

When compared to Frigate Orpheon, it becomes clear that the water, multiple walk-offs, constantly changing blastzones, walls, and other stage hazards are FAR more intrusive than the flip and the ledge.

inb4ZSS/PT/Tethercharacters

It becomes clear? How so? I thought it wasn't about intrusiveness, but about fairness? I think you're underestimating how much the ledge actually affects some characters.

Where is the fair play at? If it's a starter and the stage adversely effect my character then why should it even be a starter?

As I've said at least twice before, you have to look at these stages within the context of stage striking. Please reply to this sentence so I know you actually read it -_-

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If I'm forced to strike this stage it can still put me on a stage that I would not want to be on. So what's the point of adding more stages when it doesn't promote fair play.

 

[Deleted member]

If I'm forced to strike this stage it can still put me on a stage that I would not want to be on. So what's the point of adding more stages when it doesn't promote fair play.

Are you saying that there exist stages that no character will ever want to strike anytime?

If so, I think ALL matches should be played on those stages. Screw the strike system.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Are you saying that there exist stages that no character will ever want to strike anytime?

If so, I think ALL matches should be played on those stages. Screw the strike system.

I'm suggesting that there are stages I would like to avoid depending on the MU and adding a terrible stages messes up my striking capabilities.

 

[T-block]

You look at the act of adding a specific stage, Frigate Orpheon, and it's effect on a specific character, Marth, and claim that it invalidates the entire concept?

What if with five stages you were in a matchup where your opponent had three favourable stages and you only had one, with the last one being neutral? You'd be forced to a stage that favours your opponent.

What if you add two stages that are favourable to you? Then you end up on the neutral stage.

fairPlay++;

 

[Deleted member]

I'm suggesting that there are stages I would like to avoid depending on the MU and adding a terrible stages messes up my striking capabilities.

The same can be said about any stage, with tons of characters.

Just becuase you in particular don't want the stage there, doesn't mean that it should be gone from the stagelist. The stagelist can't be catered to the ones which you want to avoid.

What if a (oh, I don't know) Ganondorf main came in here and said that certain stages in this list are bad for him and he wants to have FD removed because it sucks for him (I don't know if it is, but that's not the point). Should we just cater to that?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You look at the act of adding a specific stage, Frigate Orpheon, and it's effect on a specific character, Marth, and claim that it invalidates the entire concept?

What if with five stages you were in a matchup where your opponent had three favourable stages and you only had one, with the last one being neutral? You'd be forced to a stage that favours your opponent.

What if you add two stages that are favourable to you? Then you end up on the neutral stage.

fairPlay++;

The stage isn't just disadvantage to Marth though. There's a difference between my opponent have a stage that is good for him and a stage that blantly puts my character to a disadvantage. I only used Marth as a precursor because I saw the Marth Icon at the bottom of the dudes name.

The same can be said about any stage, with tons of characters.

Just becuase you in particular don't want the stage there, doesn't mean that it should be gone from the stagelist. The stagelist can't be catered to the ones which you want to avoid.

What if a (oh, I don't know) Ganondorf main came in here and said that certain stages in this list are bad for him and he wants to have FD removed because it sucks for him (I don't know if it is, but that's not the point). Should we just cater to that?

How is battle field for peach ?

 

[Raziek]

It becomes clear? How so? I thought it wasn't about intrusiveness, but about fairness? I think you're underestimating how much the ledge actually affects some characters.

As I've said at least twice before, you have to look at these stages within the context of stage striking. Please reply to this sentence so I know you actually read it -_-

I suppose I phrased it slightly incorrectly. When I constructed my stage listed, I considered both intrusiveness and fairness when I made my choices.

As has been pointed out already, on the fairness front, Frigate is not as similar to SV, BF, FD, YI, Lylat as Delfino is. This lends some balance by making it more of a 5/4 split, rather than 6/3 in terms of "neutral" stages vs. "neutral with CP elements"

Also on the fairness front, as you yourself stated, when we look at these stages, we consider the stages fairness within the context of stage striking. Ivy, PT, and ZSS are the three characters most prominently affected by the stage's lack of a ledge. All 3 of these have options for dealing with it, or other benefits to offset it.

Ivysaur has 2 other Pokemon to switch to, or the option of playing solely on the left side of the stage.

Olimar is heavily affected by it, but to balance it out, the second transition of Frigate is HEAVILY in his favor. It has two platforms that can save him from gimps, the dip with the platform above it is EXCELLENT camping for him, and to top it all off, he pulls more Purples than normal on Frigate. For Olimar, Frigate is a GAMBLE stage. If it stays mostly on the second transition, he is going to have a field day.

ZSS has lesser recovery issues to begin with thanks to proper DI, her HIGHEST DOUBLE JUMP IN THE GAME, and her down-B flipjump. Optionally, she can choose to play on the left side of the stage if she chooses.

Further more, ALL of these characters have the option of STRIKING the stage, should they choose to do so.

As for Delfino, I believe that it is hurt mostly by the intrusive nature of its hazards, and the fact that Dedede and MK polarize match-ups EXTREMELY in a way that Frigate does not. Because it is a strength, not a weakness (Like in Frigate's case), it affects the entire cast, not just 2.33333 characters.

Clearer now?

 

[Deleted member]

How is battle field for peach ?

I have no idea. Why?

EDIT: I think you might be referring to my character tag. I don't play peach in brawl, I play her in melee.

 

[Raziek]

The stage isn't just disadvantage to Marth though. There's a difference between my opponent have a stage that is good for him and a stage that blantly puts my character to a disadvantage. I only used Marth as a precursor because I saw the Marth Icon at the bottom of the dudes name.

What about fighting ICs on FD? That's a pretty blatant disadvantage.

Guess what? In the 9-starter system, we have DOUBLE the amount of strikes. USE THEM!

 

[ShadowLink84]

The stage isn't just disadvantage to Marth though. There's a difference between my opponent have a stage that is good for him and a stage that blantly puts my character to a disadvantage. I only used Marth as a precursor because I saw the Marth Icon at the bottom of the dudes name.

Except you are ignoring the context of the argument entirely.
This is in regards to stage striking.
You remove stages you're bad on.
He removes stages he is bad on.
You eventually reach a stage that is as close to "neutral" as you can get.
Where neither character gets boosted or suffers a disadvantage.
Now of course it is impossible to be completely neutral, but the attempt is to adhere to it as closely as possible.
Not start off on a stage you like.

How is battle field for peach ?

Your argument goes both ways.
How is Frigate bad for Peach?
Or Delfino for Sonic?

 

[T-block]

The stage isn't just disadvantage to Marth though. There's a difference between my opponent have a stage that is good for him and a stage that blantly puts my character to a disadvantage. I only used Marth as a precursor because I saw the Marth Icon at the bottom of the dudes name.

FD is GW's worst stage. YI is one of Lucas' worst stages.

Raziek, I wasn't just talking about tether characters. Marth, CF, Link, and more are really hurt by the lack of ledge too. Since it disadvantages more characters than Delfino gives heavy advantage too, it's harder to use the just-strike-it argument. But you may be right about Frigate being a better starter... I'm not all that against it; just trying to represent the other side.

 

[Raziek]

FD is GW's worst stage. YI is one of Lucas' worst stages.

Raziek, I wasn't just talking about tether characters. Marth, CF, Link, and more are really hurt by the lack of ledge too. Since it disadvantages more characters than Delfino gives heavy advantage too, it's harder to use the just-strike-it argument. But you may be right about Frigate being a better starter... I'm not all that against it; just trying to represent the other side.

Understandably so, but I'd like to once again point out that striking Frigate is a strike that removes a stage you are bad on, but striking Delfino is used because your opponent is too GOOD on it.

This distinction is what I like to think of as offensive vs. defensive striking.

Ideally, we want our stagelist to show that most match-ups (MK notwithstanding) strike defensively (removing their bad stages), not offensively (removing their opponents good ones).

Does that make more sense?

Edit: I re-read it and I think I can clarify a bit more.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is we want a balance of offensive vs. defensive striking. Against characters like MK, we have to strike entirely offensively, since that is what he gets to do. We have to remove the stages where he claims enormous advantages (yet we don't always do poorly on), instead of removing our disadvantages (where he may or may not excel).

I think that's a little more clear.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Most tether recoveries do fine on Frigate and snicker to themselves when it is CP'd. Recovering low on Frigate is difficult for almost anyone, tethers aren't especially bad there.

Frigate is one of the game's more reasonably neutral stages.

 

[Raziek]

Most tether recoveries do fine on Frigate and snicker to themselves when it is CP'd. Recovering low on Frigate is difficult for almost anyone, tethers aren't especially bad there.

Frigate is one of the game's more reasonably neutral stages.

Thanks for the support, obvious ZSS main.

Like I said, with good DI and proper use of your options, you shouldn't really be recovering low.