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So I heard Young Link counters Jigglypuff.

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ph00tbag

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Armada needed to have Hungrybox approach him to make things easier. This was his main problem at Apex2. Projectiles force approaches. This is something Peach turnips couldn't provide him, something Falco lasers wouldn't provide because Hungrybox is a top Puff player who is adept at limiting their influence to the game. However, Young Link has greater versatility when it comes to his projectile game as he can throw not only one but two projectiles, but much more importantly, in all directions. That allows Armada to set up an efficient camping tactic to rack up as much damage as possible on Hungrybox, constantly predicting all his movements and trajectory. Young Link being a small target, it was also very complicated for Puff to hit him and get a few rests. And to top it all, Armada had the brilliant idea of using bomb to dair as an extremely efficient kill setup. Dair really kills Jigglypuff insanely early.

Armada planned every single part of this, and managed to apply it perfectly.

He is truly a genius.
This sums up the way I think about it, but it gets at what is really worth noting here. Match-ups are not about tournament results. They are about the options each character has, and what of those options are completely shut down, or amplified in efficiency by, the other character's options or lack thereof.

Young Link has projectile options at pretty much every angle between straight up and straight down. Combining this with his mobility, he really has one of the strongest pure zoning games in Melee, and it limits a lot of Jiggs' zoning options. Jiggs can't just space a full jump bair against Young Link, because he has to avoid the boomerang, and if he manages that, he can't punish standing too close by ff bairing because of the bomb. This is a set-up Armada used a lot, and Hbox didn't have enough speed up and down to punish Armada for running away when Hbox managed to close the gap.

Now, it's possible that Jiggs has options to beat Y. Link's zone, but Hbox didn't display any, and Armada is (understandably) demurring. As far as the match-up goes, Y. Link's options appear to negate a lot of Jiggs' options. Ergo, the match-up is pretty good for Y. Link. I don't know enough about either character to say for sure, but all I've seen anyone offer is empty naysaying rather than real options that Jiggs has against Y. Link.

It's also worth noting that based on understanding of the game, match-ups can and do change. Early on in the lifespan of BB:CS1, it was thought Hazama had a bad match-up with Hakumen, because the latter could cancel out any of the former's pokes and turn them into a large hitbox to frustrate approaches. But then, as Hazama players discovered new mobility options for Hazama and the openings in Hakumen's pressure became better understood, the match-up was seen as much closer to even. So there's no reason that the match-up can't be a soft counter until some option for Jiggs is figured out.
 

Dark Hart

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Armada needed to have Hungrybox approach him to make things easier. This was his main problem at Apex2. Projectiles force approaches. This is something Peach turnips couldn't provide him, something Falco lasers wouldn't provide because Hungrybox is a top Puff player who is adept at limiting their influence to the game. However, Young Link has greater versatility when it comes to his projectile game as he can throw not only one but two projectiles, but much more importantly, in all directions. That allows Armada to set up an efficient camping tactic to rack up as much damage as possible on Hungrybox, constantly predicting all his movements and trajectory. Young Link being a small target, it was also very complicated for Puff to hit him and get a few rests. And to top it all, Armada had the brilliant idea of using bomb to dair as an extremely efficient kill setup. Dair really kills Jigglypuff insanely early.

Armada planned every single part of this, and managed to apply it perfectly.

He is truly a genius.
This is one of the best posts I've ever read about Melee.
 

t3h Icy

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I agree. I really like that a lower tiered character was used by maximizing their abilities in a certain match-up. I don't think it's realistic at the moment to see a pure Young Link player make it far in a bracket, but for specific match-ups, certain characters excel.

V3ctorman is doing a similar type of thing by abusing Yoshi's gimmicks (Parry for the most part) against Spacies that rely on a lot of in-your-face offense, where Vman can follow up with gimps and Yoshi's DJC combos.

Hax has also done an amazing job defeating Amsah in what players frequently call a stupidly hard match-up for Falcon. Though Amsah isn't the top Sheik vs Falcon (perhaps Tope?), it is still tough, but Hax used his character's tools to make it look even.

So many low tier characters have been doing well and I'd really like to see some more development in them all, particularly ones that don't have any amazing mains (Roy, Mr.G&W, etc).
 

metalreflectslime

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darkatma: Bom to dair is a combo. If they DI perfectly you can still follow up

I have been practice this machups sience a couple weeks after Apex so i know the matchup pretty well.
I see. So you practiced this match up specifically to counteract Hungrybox's Jigglypuff after losing 5-0 to him at Apex 2010. This is impressive. You weren't kidding when you said in the Pound V thread that you were ready for Hungrybox's Jigglypuff at Pound V. :)
 

Flonomenalz

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Yeah, I don't want to hear any johns about Hbox not being ready for ylink. If you're one of the top players in the world, you should be able to beat low tiers, that's why they're low. Box didn't adapt after the first match, hence he lost.

Link has a pretty good match up against Ganon, yet I'll take Kage over any Link (or Young Link for that matter) any day of the week regardless of how much Link experience he has, because Kage is not only a great Ganon, but great at adapting in-game and between games. No offense to Hbox, but his playstyle is generally the same regardless of who he's playing and which char. they're using.

So while Hbox inexperience was working against him, the bigger issue is his general lack of adaptation IMO.
 

Velox

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Also, I always thought Pikachu countered Jigglypuff, so I'm very surprised Hungrybox was able to beat Axe.
 

Stratford

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Axe did really well.
And good **** to Armada. This set was one of the happiest moments of my life. He came in with a plan and executed it perfectly. Nicely done.
 

choknater

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hahah, nah, it's a pretty close matchup. i realized this back in the King days when people in norcal whipped out pocket pikachus only to get ***** by him
 

King Funk

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A thing I learned about Pound V is that most players who lose to someone, to some matchup or to some tactic just decide to practice their tech skill and play more. "I gotta practice harder!". They expect that when they'll go to next national, they will have naturally gotten over their problems at that matchup they lost in because they're better than before overall. Of course, I am not implying that it doesn't work. It DOES help. The thing is, Armada and PP proved that there's so much more dedication needed than just playing the game to improve in the areas they want to improve in. After Armada lost to Hungrybox at Apex, he seems to have studied everything about why he lost, the spacing, the baiting, the moves used, absolutely everything. He then calculated approximately what he could do to counter Hungrybox's options and win a potential new match against him, and it surprisingly and brilliantly came in the form of a much underused (and probably underrated) character called Young Link. He lost, made up a plan, applied it and then won. He really thought over the game a lot and this is something we all can learn from. And I can say the same about Dr. Peepee, who not only became a much better player overall but also seems to have studied many aspects of the Peach matchup and Armada's play style so he could win Pound V. Many of us have friends who keep losing in the same (winnable) matchup, because they don't do that extra "push" that Armada and Dr. Peepee did. As for myself, I should probably put that kind of work for matchups I hate as well (Samus).

Playing more and getting better is one thing.

But it just takes a lot more to be amazing.
 

TP

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Yeah, I don't want to hear any johns about Hbox not being ready for ylink.
What about johns concerning food poisoning?

Seriously, props to Armada. He had a damn good idea and executed it perfectly. But still, food poisoning sucks. I can't even imagine playing well while going through it. I wanna see Armada repeat this at G2 before I join the YL hype train, although I will be rooting for Hbox in the actual match (he's such a nice guy from all I've seen/heard/read).
 

Orion*

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People seem to forget that SSBM is a GAME not a TV show... Hbox doesn't play to entertain viewers, he plays to win. I'm pretty sure that's what smash is about.
I think everyone realizes that. Its just nobody wants to see Grandfinals with Hbox being in it-

from a crowd/spectator point if view you cant blame most people.
 

Zodiac

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Im going to just say it outright, falco is the best character in the game period. PP should have proved that with his amazing performance at pound V.

Why?

There are three very key things required to play falco at high level.
1.being technically proficient
2.Above average mind games (For combo starters)
3.Reading and prediction skills.

More than any other character falco's general style stress's all three of these aspects, which on their own are damn good to know anyway. But ****....PP took all that to the next level and then some.
 

ballin4life

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Yeah, I don't want to hear any johns about Hbox not being ready for ylink. If you're one of the top players in the world, you should be able to beat low tiers, that's why they're low. Box didn't adapt after the first match, hence he lost.

Link has a pretty good match up against Ganon, yet I'll take Kage over any Link (or Young Link for that matter) any day of the week regardless of how much Link experience he has, because Kage is not only a great Ganon, but great at adapting in-game and between games. No offense to Hbox, but his playstyle is generally the same regardless of who he's playing and which char. they're using.

So while Hbox inexperience was working against him, the bigger issue is his general lack of adaptation IMO.
lol

You know Kage lost to Mango's Link, right?

So much for taking Kage over "any Link ... any day of the week"
 

ph00tbag

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A thing I learned about Pound V is that most players who lose to someone, to some matchup or to some tactic just decide to practice their tech skill and play more. "I gotta practice harder!". They expect that when they'll go to next national, they will have naturally gotten over their problems at that matchup they lost in because they're better than before overall. Of course, I am not implying that it doesn't work. It DOES help. The thing is, Armada and PP proved that there's so much more dedication needed than just playing the game to improve in the areas they want to improve in. After Armada lost to Hungrybox at Apex, he seems to have studied everything about why he lost, the spacing, the baiting, the moves used, absolutely everything. He then calculated approximately what he could do to counter Hungrybox's options and win a potential new match against him, and it surprisingly and brilliantly came in the form of a much underused (and probably underrated) character called Young Link. He lost, made up a plan, applied it and then won. He really thought over the game a lot and this is something we all can learn from. And I can say the same about Dr. Peepee, who not only became a much better player overall but also seems to have studied many aspects of the Peach matchup and Armada's play style so he could win Pound V. Many of us have friends who keep losing in the same (winnable) matchup, because they don't do that extra "push" that Armada and Dr. Peepee did. As for myself, I should probably put that kind of work for matchups I hate as well (Samus).

Playing more and getting better is one thing.

But it just takes a lot more to be amazing.
I made a post about this earlier. It must not have been well-worded because everyone ignored it or said I was forgetting about spacing, which was entirely not the point. Hopefully after seeing how Kevin and Armada do it, more players will understand that there's more to winning than just playing the game and hoping for the best. You have to understand it.

It's something players of other fighting games do before they ever really sit down and play the game.
 

Dark Sonic

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I'm personally glad that Armada gave us such a good example of "theorycraft" being more than just theory. Too many times players discredit possibilities because they haven't seen it in practice.

Bomb to dair isn't exactly new though (it's actually a staple combo for killing floaties that has been around as long as Young Link has), but to actually manage to play keep away for the ENTIRE MATCH and put yourself in position to land said bomb to dair consistently is quite a feat. To be patient and only throw out bombs when they're certain to hit, to know when it's actually safe to try and get your wall set up, and to know what angles you need to cover for that wall in the first place is actually very hard to do.


Even though it was one of the gayest matches I've ever witnessed, Armada did a really good job staying focused on his plan and it payed off.


And @whoever said bomb-> dair is not a combo...the only way to escape it would be some crazy multiple smash DIs. As long as your making sure the dair hits while (or shortly after) the bomb is hitting them (which isn't hard with how many hits YL's bomb has, and his amazing item throw animation) it will combo regardless of the opponent's DI. You may be confusing it with Link's bomb to dair combo, which is a lot more situational because of Link's poor airspeed, the single hit bomb (so they're not locked in place), and the higher knockback on the bomb.
 

HyugaRicdeau

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For some reason I thought YL's bomb hitstun was short enough that you could wiggle/airdodge out (but not jump/aerial) in time to avoid the dair (at reasonable %).
 

Cactuar

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That's stupid. The simple answer to that matchup is for Jigglypuff to just not get hit by any projectiles.

The same way the answer to wobbling is to not get grabbed.

Every matchup in this game is completely even, because you can always just not get hit, while hitting your opponent more.

lrn2play
 

PoundSlap

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Armada is very smart.
after which backair did you notice it?

That's stupid. The simple answer to that matchup is for Jigglypuff to just not get hit by any projectiles.

The same way the answer to wobbling is to not get grabbed.

Every matchup in this game is completely even, because you can always just not get hit, while hitting your opponent more.

lrn2play
nonsense. the matchup describes how much room for mistakes you have. if we would play on a complete flat stage for example sheik cannot edgeguard and thus the matchup against fox goes incredibly in favor of fox. lowtier vs sheik -> no room for getting grabbed. getting grabbed is actually a small mistake. small mistakes with high consequences. that influences the matchup.

stop making all these trollposts and learn2lose.
 

Orion*

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Armada is very smart.
Don't discredit yourself either ;)

That's stupid. The simple answer to that matchup is for Jigglypuff to just not get hit by any projectiles.

The same way the answer to wobbling is to not get grabbed.

Every matchup in this game is completely even, because you can always just not get hit, while hitting your opponent more.

lrn2play
Not everyone can move like you :awesome:
 

Xelyst

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Young Link has projectiles. Armada's Peach couldn't really land descent hits at APEX without getting punished even with turnips to help. So enough projectile hits which lead to random aerials will get the damage he needs before a random uair or dair kill comes in and kills HBox. Once jiggs is in the air all Armada had to do is get a good momentum horizontal jump and whip out a dair or bomb>dair (or go under him and try uair. Peach killing jiggs is hard, so maybe Armada weighed his options and though good projectiles & 2 good kill moves might do the trick with Young Link. NTSC Young Link U-air and D-air are pretty good against jiggs at mid percents i suppose. HBox is use to Peach and Falco projectiles so this was something different for him to try and adapt to. All peach has really is fair but that's beatable and avoidable when your a Jiggs. Any other high tier Armada might have thought of using would have failed. So what he won with YLink... I'm pretty sure HBox (like the rest of us) was not ready for that random surprise tactic lol. You can see it in HBox's edge guarding.

Young Link is a good option (if your a good player) but if the jiggz can adapt and avoid more projectile spam then it becomes like any other hard working match up for the non jiggz. Hbox needed to stay more on the ground vs that character. + if your one of those methodical players who will go home and study as much about a particular char and matchup then I bet next time i will look like any other match up for jiggs.

Hbox will not be caught off guard like that again.

Armada picked and exploited a great option for his situation. That does not mean that Jiggz is counted by Young Link

you can always just not get hit, while hitting your opponent more.
<3 Cactus
 

bryu_1337

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after which backair did you notice it?



nonsense. the matchup describes how much room for mistakes you have. if we would play on a complete flat stage for example sheik cannot edgeguard and thus the matchup against fox goes incredibly in favor of fox. lowtier vs sheik -> no room for getting grabbed. getting grabbed is actually a small mistake. small mistakes with high consequences. that influences the matchup.

stop making all these trollposts and learn2lose.
guys....



guys.....


guys.....



sheik can't edgeguard fox on fd. this makes sheik terrible. why does everyone think she's top tier? if she can't edgeguard fox on a flat stage, she clearly sucks.
 

sXe

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At Genesis 2, Hungrybox will also have a Young Link for Armada's Peach, and Armada will have Young Link for Hungrybox, and we'll get Young Link dittos!

Clearly, Cambodia has been years ahead of us, but we're finally catching up.
 
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