So I guess ICs are "S Tier" now :) / :( ?

[-LzR-]

So give me 3 reason why Marth doesn't +3 us.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Blizzard
Grab
Nair

 

[-LzR-]

Blizzard:
He will either fair to trade hits in his favour or get hit and fair us out of hit.
Grab:
Good luck with that
Nair:
Except he is still protected by that huge *** sword that makes us slide 1/4th of FD when we shield it.

I've almost given up hope on this matchup. It's incredibly gay and frustrating.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Blizzard is for when they are landing or offstage. You don't do it in the neutral position. In the neutral position you sit back and approach (or not) with iceblocks. YOU HAVE A PROJECTILE, MARTH DOESN'T, HE IS FORCED TO APPROACH!!!!!! After he jumps because of ice blocks (because he eventually will...it might take 20-75 seconds) you can start getting under him and uair him. No, fair doesn't beat that option because fair isn't instantly below him, it takes ~10 frames to hit below him, and that hitbox is realy underwhelming. Counter will whiff if you space it right because uair is super disjointed. So yeah, blizzard when he is on the ledge and when you are above him landing since he can't do anythign about it assuming he is IN BLIZZARD RANGE WHEN YOU USE IT!!

Grab: Really bro? It isn't like Marth is punishable in like...every move he has when he is landing. It isn't like Marth's ground options are kinda terrible. It isn't like that if he keeps jumping we won't even HAVE to grab because of the damage we rack up from blizzards/ice blocks/uairs/nairs/bairs. Stop thinking with such a linear mindset. He has options for what you can do, but you have other options as well. Welcome to even or +1 MUs, you have answers for what each other can do, but since we are in the +1 position (IMO) we have more options than he does that cover more things.

Nair: You aren't using nair when he is in the ground. If he is on the ground, you ice block him into the air. Assuming the Marth isn't ********, he will jump to platforms to try and hit you for overcommitting. That's the wonderful thing about nair...you can't hit ICs out of them since the hitbox comes out so late and has relatively low cooldown compared to when the attack hits. You also aren't stretching out your arm, extending your vertical hurtbox. Nair on platforms is AMAZING, and it can lead to a grab (*Gasp* grab set-ups? You mean I can't just be ******** and blatantly throw them out all the time?)

So yeah, 4th reason is Ice Blocks. As I said before, Marth is always forced to approach when you are tied since we have projectiles and he doesn't.

Sorry if I sound a little angry, I've lectured about the Pikachu/Marth MU a lot to somebody that plays Leon and I get mad when people just say stupid **** about it when they don't actually comprehend the MU or when you actually have to think in a MU.

 

[-LzR-]

Thanks for the huge wall of text. It's useful.
Sorry to sound like a ******** noob, but Marth is my most played MU with Icies and I still just can't do ****.
Whenever I manage to get the grab, I rarely drop it, but most of the time the MU is based around that when I grab him, it's over, when he hits me, it's over.
I don't approach Marth, he approaches me. I just can't do much. I can punish predictable fairs that aren't well spaced with every other character really, but Icies just slide too far and thanks to Nana being a moron, it pokes half the time.
I can't ever get under Marth no matter how I try. That underwhelming fair hitbox isn't so underwhelming, that **** is hard to punish.
Everything in this MU feels like I have to do all the work and Marth just has to not be a moron to win. I feel so helpless and frustrated every second I play this MU.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Can't tell if first line is sarcasm or not. Oh well

You realize you have shield options and the ability to jump....right? If Marth is in the air and you predict a fair, just sidestep it. You should have time to grab. He won't really be able to do anything to the sidestep if you time it correctly either.

ICs have the best defensive options in the game. If he approaches on the ground, just ice block him and force him to jump. At that point, run under him or get ready to trade fair and bair. You can u-smash him, you can just back up and throw an ice block to cover his landing (And you could LD1 it to grab him). Honestly, you should learn LD1 for this MU so you can throw out a bair to control space, he will try to punish, and you will haev an iceblock grab waiting for him (Delux DELUX Namebait). But seriously, if he is winning with such linear actions, it is you as a player that is failing, not the MU.

 

[-LzR-]

Why is it ICs who I have trouble with against Marth? There must be some reason =/
Whenever I try to do any shield options, Marth can act too fast. The slide is too much for me to attempt an uair, nair doesn't have enough range and bair isn't helpful either. He will slowly back me to the ledge where he simply destroys me.
I appreciated that wall of text, don't worry. I appreciate all the help I can get. I don't want my Icies to be this free >_>
I have tried to do LD1, but have never pulled it off. Still don't understand how exactly it's done or how it works.

Oh and if I tend to get hit by charged smashes and **** a lot, does this mean I am too greedy for grabs and I am being baited or am I just a bad player?

So I should use spotdodges instead of shielding when possible because trying to wait for a spotdodge is risky vs us and it eliminates the sliding problem?

 

[| Big D |]

Do you know of any videos where the match up is played proficiently or the way you described?

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

At daisy, its cause you play against bad people.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Yeah, if you are running into smashes that just means you aren't that smart as a player...being blunt is fun :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUxBNQhSVOE

This is the only set of me as ICs, but my ICs weren't nearly as refined as they are now...

 

[DeLux]

i've actually been a fan of Nana SH ice shot in the MU for spacing purposes, but Esam pretty much wrote it to a science.

One thing you might try doing is to time your Ice Shot so you chase in front of it on Fair. So that way, Marth fairs your shield to space, and then he gets hit by the Ice Shot out of Fair cooldown, and then you grab him.

If you LD1 OOS to Ice Shot Nana Ledge Grab Marth's recovery to the stage, you can either kill him with dtilt or grab and he doesn't really have a legit answer to that lol

 

[SSBBDaisy]

@Papa Mink: So Ryo is bad? Hmmmmm. Damn Then there is no way I beat someone good.


Thank Goodness I play this game only for fun.


Oh and PS: I suck

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

You don't beat Ryo with IC.

If me and Jeff can't beat ryo with ic, theres no way you can.
No offense.

 

[| Big D |]

For LD1 Popo is the one to Ice block right?

Also I suck vs Marth, I've only lost to one but it was basically a combo video and for some reason it gets much more attention than any other vid >.>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B2mxNuzufM

 

[DeLux]

Nana should act first

 

[| Big D |]

Edit just watched your vid, I was thinking something else entirely >.>

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

You dont' beat Ryo with ICs. If I couldn't do it, I doubt you could...

 

[DeLux]

I actually have some Ike experience, and I feel like Ike is one of the type of characters that would lose to my style of play.

 

[Ruinn]

LzR, if you think ice climbers slide too far after shield, go ahead and main Luigi.

 

[TheSaintKai]

Thank you ESAM. Just thank you.

 

[SSBBDaisy]

But I have done it... Not in tourney tho . So I guess it dosen't count. Of course I can't beat him, I mean u both are ESAM and TheSaintKai, real pros. Me I suck :D (No sarcasm :D)


I suck. I don't care tho, if I face him in bracket I'm going ICs. One thing he gets me with(If he grabs the climber I control) is a pivot grab, back throw, nana runs after me and then he fsmashes or if near the edge spikes nana with dtilt. I'm trying to find a solution to this. One thing that can get him are desynced Ice Blocks. Few times I trapped him with IBs but he adapted quick :O. HE is SOOOOOOOOO Good vs ICs D:.


EDIT: Oh and BTW Ryo can Powershield like a mofo and I suck :D

 

[-LzR-]

LzR, if you think ice climbers slide too far after shield, go ahead and main Luigi.

I am aware of that, but at least Luigi doesn't get shieldpoked half the time.

I just don't really understand what's going on. When I am playing IC my opponent can sometimes just walk towards me, start charging a smash and I get hit somehow. This doesn't happen with any other character so I'll have to blame Nana for that.
This character is damn hard.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

No, it's your inability to adapt to simple situations, not that character's fault. You have to adjust for nana being there, but YOU don't, so it is YOUR fault, not the character's.

 

[-LzR-]

I am aware, but it only happens to ICies so it's my fault for not being able to adapt to **** with them. But man, you know when you there is a strong Smash, like Marths fsmash...
You powershield it with Popo. It is stuck forever in Popos shield, then after the lag ends it hits Nanas shield and it's gonna poke because Nana was stuck in her shield for a while, waiting for the Smash to hit her shield, then she dies at like 50% >_>

I'll have to do my best when I'm going ooc Thursday

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

So just...roll through him and grab him?

 

[SSBBDaisy]

yall can beat Ryo wit ICs in Friendlies right? o_0?

 

[-LzR-]

Damn I feel so dumb atm

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I ragequit the one friendly we played in that MU, I was getting bodied. Nana was dead my last stock and he had 2 stocks mid-high %. That man is ****ing beastly. The MU is still even because it is pretty much momentum based, but god damn Ryo is so scary.

 

[SSBBDaisy]

^ jes he is very scary.


Dat dat back throw setup to kill nana is evil. Never take him to battlefield. Its easy for him to set up the spike on that stage cause its so small D:.

 

[Ruinn]

Ryo > San????

also, random bored question here, what skin of ic's do you guys use?

I know vinnie uses the white skin, esam uses default, I tend to use the black and white, what do you guys use?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I think Ryo > San. Ryo doesn't have the national exposure or experience, but I think he is better (And he beat San in the ditto)

 

[Damix91]

Ike Dittos are unimportant. More important to check their records vs MK

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

MK isn't the only MU that is important. FL has him banned for the most part, so Ryo doesn't really HAVE records vs MKs.

 

[Smoom77]

The best Ike I've played is Doom.

And ruinn, I used to use all blue, but now I use green/yellow

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

I use White

 

[dettadeus]

Black/White for me.

 

[-LzR-]

The blue one because it is harder to recognize Nana.

 

[Smoom77]

I used to think that, but my opponents learned very quickly.

 

[-LzR-]

Keyword being harder.

 

[Roller]