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So I guess ICs are "S Tier" now :) / :( ?

Sieguest

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But the whole point is to fast fall the aerial lol, fast falling the airdodge isn't shffling especially considering there is no airdodge in shffling lol you don't fast fall an l-cancel...
Yeah I know, which is why I had to end up editing the post before my previous post. >.< What you posted is also why Xdeath called it a "psuedo shffl".

Edit: This argument is stupid lol.
Dtayls r srs bsns.
 

DeLux

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Xdeath, this makes me sad. I'll go into what's wrong with what you're saying after I get off work
 

DeLux

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The point of air dodging out of uair isn't to negate the landing lag. If you're able to air dodge, it means you've already hit the FAF which means you already would have autocancelled the aerial.

If you're air dodging out of uair, you're doing it to makeyourself invulnerable until you land.
 

Exdeath

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The point of air dodging out of uair isn't to negate the landing lag. If you're able to air dodge, it means you've already hit the FAF which means you already would have autocancelled the aerial.

If you're air dodging out of uair, you're doing it to makeyourself invulnerable until you land.
It may be that my perception is biased from what Hot Garbage said, but both what he said and what I've experienced suggest that it's genuinely faster to buffer an air dodge than it is allow it to end on its own. I believe that MK's Dtilt is also faster when buffered into another attack instead of something like a movement option.

I could be wrong, of course. These were found back when frame data testing were first being used and mistakes could certainly have been made.
 

DeLux

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Ask rPSI, he collected the data for the MK Panel. I'm 90% sure I'm right lol
 

DeLux

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That aspect of it will be ready. I think most of it is ready. I'd go into specifics, but I've probably leaked too much already =\
 

DeLux

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lol, if that happens, they'd I have no reason to main Lucas anymore
 

Sieguest

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The point of air dodging out of uair isn't to negate the landing lag. If you're able to air dodge, it means you've already hit the FAF which means you already would have autocancelled the aerial.

If you're air dodging out of uair, you're doing it to makeyourself invulnerable until you land.
I'm going to have to disagree Lux. The IASA on MK's uair is frame 14. It doesn't autocancel until frame 21.

This checks out. Do a short hop, uair, and then fastfall just after the slash finishes. MK gets the landing lag penalty. You can do the same thing and do an airdodge as you fastfall, the airdodge will come out and he'll go through 5 frames due to hard landing lag as opposed to 12 due to landing an aerial early.

It's pretty weird though, that's the only aerial I can find that breaks the conventions.

The OSA2 confirms it, MK can pretty much L-Cancel with his Uair. lmfao
 

DeLux

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Weird. I misread the frame data posted and thought it said autocancel on frame 14 as well as FAF on 14. I apologize to xDeath, he was right and I was wrong.

Sad
 

Dnyce

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there is no airdodge in shffling lol you don't fast fall an l-cancel...

Edit: This argument is stupid lol.
Wrong
Let's get this straight.

Shffling does NOT exist in brawl.

>_>
Still wrong
Ask rPSI, he collected the data for the MK Panel. I'm 90% sure I'm right lol
dat 10%

The OSA2 confirms it, MK can pretty much L-Cancel with his Uair. lmfao
^this
Weird. I misread the frame data posted and thought it said autocancel on frame 14 as well as FAF on 14. I apologize to xDeath, he was right and I was wrong.

Sad
Subaction 17618 (MK's uair)
-----------|START|--------------------------
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=1.00x,
Bit Variable Set - RA-Bit[30],

Offensive Collision - Bone/ID=0x0, Damage=0x6, Trajectory=0x4E, Base Knockback=0x7D, Knockback Growth=0x28, Size=5.50x, Z Offset=0.00x, Y Offset=17.00x, X Offset=-6.40x, Tripping Rate=0.00x, Hitlag Multiplier=1.00x, SDI Multiplier=1.00x, Hitbox Flags=0x22830642,

Offensive Collision - Bone/ID=0x1, Damage=0x6, Trajectory=0x4E, Base Knockback=0x7D, Knockback Growth=0x28, Size=5.50x, Z Offset=0.00x, Y Offset=17.00x, X Offset=1.60x, Tripping Rate=0.00x, Hitlag Multiplier=1.00x, SDI Multiplier=1.00x, Hitbox Flags=0x22830642,

Offensive Collision - Bone/ID=0x2, Damage=0x6, Trajectory=0x3C, Base Knockback=0x7D, Knockback Growth=0x28, Size=5.00x, Z Offset=0.00x, Y Offset=14.00x, X Offset=-12.80x, Tripping Rate=0.00x, Hitlag Multiplier=1.00x, SDI Multiplier=1.00x, Hitbox Flags=0x22830642,

Offensive Collision - Bone/ID=0x3, Damage=0x6, Trajectory=0x3C, Base Knockback=0x7D, Knockback Growth=0x28, Size=5.00x, Z Offset=0.00x, Y Offset=14.00x, X Offset=8.00x, Tripping Rate=0.00x, Hitlag Multiplier=1.00x, SDI Multiplier=1.00x, Hitbox Flags=0x22830642,


Synchronous Timer - Frames=2.00x,
Terminate Collisions
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=13.00x,
Allow Interrupt

Asynchronous Timer - Frames=20.00x,
Bit Variable Clear - RA-Bit[30],
----------------------------|END|-----------


As you can see, RA-Bit[30] (land-lag) is cleared after the "Allow interrupt" (IASA) line is registered. Aerial dodging after uair essentially takes advantage of the early IASA and bypasses the landing lag. MK's uair is the only aerial that can be shffl'd (as far as I know).
QED
 

DeLux

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*highfives Yika
Welcome to team Bad @ Data

You can't count it. I can't read it. Broken
 

Dnyce

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Lol this guy is trolling. He thinks L-Cancleing is in brawl.
If mk lands during frames 14-20 of his uair, he has 12 frames of land lag. If you aerial dodge before landing during those frames (14-20) you have 2 or 4 (if fastfalling) frames of land lag. How is this not L-canceling? Since you don't seem to understand, I will make sure to note that "L-cancel" means "lag-cancel."
 

Hylian

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If mk lands during frames 14-20 of his uair, he has 12 frames of land lag. If you aerial dodge before landing during those frames (14-20) you have 2 or 4 (if fastfalling) frames of land lag. How is this not L-canceling? Since you don't seem to understand, I will make sure to note that "L-cancel" means "lag-cancel."
I'm still pretty sure you can't fastfall the uair and still airdodge, you can only fast fall the airdodge to do that from a short hop.

Also, l-canceling refers to cutting the lag of an aerial in half by pressing l/r, or z within 20 frames of you landing. Lag cancelling is not a general term and it doesn't apply to other things that reduce lag such as float cancelling or auto-cancelling.

So no, mk can not l-cancel because that mechanic is not in brawl. If anything you are auto cancelling that by airdodging which gives you normal landing lag as opposed to landing lag from a move.
 

Dnyce

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I'm still pretty sure you can't fastfall the uair and still airdodge, you can only fast fall the airdodge to do that from a short hop.

Also, l-canceling refers to cutting the lag of an aerial in half by pressing l/r, or z within 20 frames of you landing. Lag cancelling is not a general term and it doesn't apply to other things that reduce lag such as float cancelling or auto-cancelling.

So no, mk can not l-cancel because that mechanic is not in brawl. If anything you are auto cancelling that by airdodging which gives you normal landing lag as opposed to landing lag from a move.
"pretty sure" isn't a great way to start an argument ;)

Anyway, the term l-cancel isn't SSBM specific and therefore I fail to see the appeal in using SSBM as an objective definition for l-canceling. L-canceling existed in SSB64 by pressing Z and removed all frames of land lag from an aerial.

Auto-canceling is the window in which an aerial will not go into aerial landing lag. So by definition, cancelling it with an airdodge is not auto-cancelling.


Smash Lab Standard Term list said:
Autocancel [Universal] - Landing with an aerial during the frames in which an aerial will not receive aerial landing lag.


Standard term list should be up anytime now... so sorry if there is confusion on your side ^^;


EDIT: Saying "mk cannot l-cancel because l-canceling does not exist in brawl" is a great example of dogmatic thinking. I remember you and I having a discussion about wishing people keeping an open mind when arguing / helping them out on the way to Pound, Jordan. I had hoped you of all people would understand :p
 

DeLux

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tldr

you interrupt Uair with air dodge
you autocancel the air dodge
 

Yikarur

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since when does an airdodge have autocancel frames? and why are the IC Boards always the place for every labby?
that like our social thread lol
 

DeLux

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Based on the definition, the AERIAL dodge does not suffer increased aerial landing lag. The entire aerial dodge autocancels to soft/hard landing lag.
 

rPSIvysaur

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[9:07:35 PM] iOn Exdeath: We L-Canceled Kennedy with MK's Uair.
[9:07:48 PM] iOn Exdeath: L-Canceling being Life-Canceling.
 

Hylian

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"pretty sure" isn't a great way to start an argument ;)

Anyway, the term l-cancel isn't SSBM specific and therefore I fail to see the appeal in using SSBM as an objective definition for l-canceling. L-canceling existed in SSB64 by pressing Z and removed all frames of land lag from an aerial.

Auto-canceling is the window in which an aerial will not go into aerial landing lag. So by definition, cancelling it with an airdodge is not auto-cancelling.




Standard term list should be up anytime now... so sorry if there is confusion on your side ^^;


EDIT: Saying "mk cannot l-cancel because l-canceling does not exist in brawl" is a great example of dogmatic thinking. I remember you and I having a discussion about wishing people keeping an open mind when arguing / helping them out on the way to Pound, Jordan. I had hoped you of all people would understand :p

Sorry, you're not correct. There was no "L-cancel" term in 64, unless it was added recently. Pressing Z to reduce all your lag from an aerial was called "Z-cancelling" or "Zero-Cancelling". It changed to L-cancel in melee because you weren't cancelling all of the lag anymore AND because you didn't press the Z button you usually pressed L(I know this is a dumb reason since you can L-cancel with L/R/Z but that's how it went), they didn't take it from 64 they came up with a new term, I was there at pretty much the beginning of the melee scene. L-cancelling is specific to melee in the smash series.
 

Dnyce

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Sorry, you're not correct. There was no "L-cancel" term in 64, unless it was added recently. Pressing Z to reduce all your lag from an aerial was called "Z-cancelling" or "Zero-Cancelling". It changed to L-cancel in melee because you weren't cancelling all of the lag anymore AND because you didn't press the Z button you usually pressed L(I know this is a dumb reason since you can L-cancel with L/R/Z but that's how it went), they didn't take it from 64 they came up with a new term, I was there at pretty much the beginning of the melee scene. L-cancelling is specific to melee in the smash series.
I don't get it... you don't cancel zeros (unless it was a highly-technical term related to binary programming). Debating whether or not the term means "lag-cancel" or not doesn't change the fact that aerial dodging during frames 14-20 of mk's uair significantly reduces the lag. MK's uair auto-cancels on frame 21. So, semantics aside, what do you suggest this is? I call it l-cancelling (ie lag-cancelling) since it is the most accurate description of what occurs. Naming it based on which button is pressed would be absurd, given the ability to use custom controls in brawl (and 4 different controllers).
 

Sieguest

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Sorry, you're not correct. There was no "L-cancel" term in 64, unless it was added recently. Pressing Z to reduce all your lag from an aerial was called "Z-cancelling" or "Zero-Cancelling". It changed to L-cancel in melee because you weren't cancelling all of the lag anymore
I believe this implies otherwise. The general concept behind both "Z-canceling" and "L-canceling" is functionally the same. You perform both in the same manner. The only difference is in the result, and to an extent your button input. And even with that, the results are only different on a matter of degree. I don't believe that's grounds enough to totally try and distance the two.

L-cancelling is specific to melee in the smash series.
This is also incorrect, as I said above, "L-canceling" and "Z-canceling" are functionally the same in purpose, and in execution(outside of button input, but even that could be the same). You are pressing a button (Z in 64, L/R/Z in Melee) in order to cut lag time upon touching the ground. Due to you being able to use the Z button to perform "L-canceling" in Melee, I would just say that trying to differentiate between the two is just semantic nonsense and arbitrary nitpicking.

Edit: With that said what MK is doing with his Uair is the same thing in every aspect except appearance. You are pressing the button that you have mapped to either shield or grab in order to cut the amount of lag time you have upon reaching the ground.
 

Hylian

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I don't get it... you don't cancel zeros (unless it was a highly-technical term related to binary programming). Debating whether or not the term means "lag-cancel" or not doesn't change the fact that aerial dodging during frames 14-20 of mk's uair significantly reduces the lag. MK's uair auto-cancels on frame 21. So, semantics aside, what do you suggest this is? I call it l-cancelling (ie lag-cancelling) since it is the most accurate description of what occurs. Naming it based on which button is pressed would be absurd, given the ability to use custom controls in brawl (and 4 different controllers).
It was called Z cancelling because it gave you 0 lag. I didn't make up the name I'm just pointing out it wasn't called l-cancelling until melee.

I don't think airdodging after an attack should be given a name..I would just call it buffering an ad after using an uair with mk lol. I'm also still not sure you can even airdodge after inputting a fast falled uair at the peak of mk's sh. Are you absolutely sure you can and it's not the air dodge that you're fast falling?

I believe this implies otherwise. The general concept behind both "Z-canceling" and "L-canceling" is functionally the same. You perform both in the same manner. The only difference is in the result, and to an extent your button input. And even with that, the results are only different on a matter of degree. I don't believe that's grounds enough to totally try and distance the two.
Right, but it wasn't called L-cancelling until melee. If you refer to L-cancelling even 64 players will think you are talking about melee because it's referred to as Z-cancelling in 64. They are called different things because they do different things. Yes the both reduce lag, but there is a huge difference in reducing all lag compared to half which is why they are differentiated. Just like float cancelling isn't called Z-cancelling even though it reduces all lag.

This is also incorrect, as I said above, "L-canceling" and "Z-canceling" are functionally the same in purpose, and in execution(outside of button input, but even that could be the same). You are pressing a button (Z in 64, L/R/Z in Melee) in order to cut lag time upon touching the ground. Due to you being able to use the Z button to perform "L-canceling" in Melee, I would just say that trying to differentiate between the two is just semantic nonsense and arbitrary nitpicking.
It's absolutely necessary to differentiate between the two because they have different results and different mechanics behind them...Why would you call them the same thing when they do different things? L-cancelling is certainly specific to melee and pretty much any competitive 64 or melee player will recognize this. Z-cancelling and L-cancelling are different, have different windows of frames to input, have different results, and are in different games.

The fact that IASA frames are much easier to use in brawl because of buffering misleads people. You are not "cancelling" anything when you airdodge with mk into the ground, you are just using an airdodge before landing by buffering it after your uair. In melee L-cancelling was not a move and literally only cancelled lag. Airdodging is not cancelling lag it just has that much landing lag.
 

Dnyce

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If you looked at the OSA2 read-out I copy-pasted in an earlier post, you would see (along with my explanation) that landing lag on uair lasts until frame 20. You can aerial dodge on frame 14, thus avoid going into uair landing lag. The difference is 12-14 frames.

In 64, standard landing was 1 frame iirc. "Z-canceling" is canceling an aerial such that you have standard landing lag. This is essentially what you're doing with mk when you aerial dodge between frame 13-21, thus would you agree in saying that mk is z-canceling?


In general, I try to avoid the ignorance of the community and adhere to a level of technical accuracy. It's more efficient to label "l-cancel" as "lag-cancel" and just apply it in context of the situation. imo. Unless you wish to label 7 different names for Samus' charge shot or something... Or perhaps you wish to label every move's individual hitbox ID? Like uairbone0, uairbone1, uairbone2, uairbone3...
 

Hylian

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If you looked at the OSA2 read-out I copy-pasted in an earlier post, you would see (along with my explanation) that landing lag on uair lasts until frame 20. You can aerial dodge on frame 14, thus avoid going into uair landing lag. The difference is 12-14 frames.

In 64, standard landing was 1 frame iirc. "Z-canceling" is canceling an aerial such that you have standard landing lag. This is essentially what you're doing with mk when you aerial dodge between frame 13-21, thus would you agree in saying that mk is z-canceling?
When you use snakes uair from a full hop you will have standard landing lag, thus would you agree that snake is z-canceling?


...No. Mk is air dodging, he's not cancelling anything he is using a different move that has different landing lag. The fact that you are buffering it after an uair close to the ground does not make air dodging L or Z canceling. It's still air dodging. L and Z canceling did nothing but cancel lag, air dodging is an actual move.
 
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