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So..Ganon/Pika

TheCrimsonBlur

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By now, most of you have seen the Zenith teams videos on MeleeAtlNorth. If you haven't, I recommend you do.

So what made Kage/Axe so successful? Obviously they are amazing players in their own right, but watching the matches, I think there is more to it than that. They didn't just beat teams. They demolished all the top teams. Even teams which arguably have more overall individual talent.

So I look at their characters. I don't think what happened at Zenith was a fluke; Ganon and Pika are legitimately great teams partners. They cover each others weaknesses perfectly. Ganon lives to absurd %s because Pikachu can save him very well, and is quick enough to protect Ganon from edgeguards. Pikachu is so fast and hard to hit, that opponents just run into Ganon's zone chasing him. Its really hard to zone out a Pikachu (what you would do in singles) if there is a Ganon on screen.

The killing potential of the team is one of the best in the game. Pika's usmash and Ganon's well, everything kill at super low %s. Edgeguards are super quick. Pika covers the edge and Ganon hits them when they land on the stage. Ganon and Pika's uairs lead to 1-2 hit gimps/edgeguards.

They combo off each other beautifully. Pika's uair puts opponents in bad positions above him, and thats Ganon uair territory. All of Ganon's hits send people really far, but Pika is fast enough to follow up, usually with a tailspike.

They are also dominant on a variety of stages. Pick Dreamland and Ganon's living to 200 every stock (Pikachu isn't easy to kill either because of that recovery; usually up to 150ish). Having to work in 350 damage per stock on them is really hard, especially with how well Pikachu can save Ganon from **** and how Ganon can just clean the field with fairs. Yoshi's is suicide because Ganon can kill people at like 60 lol. On FD it is really hard to escape Ganon's range, so you are left with Stadium or Battlefield (and they will probably ban Stadium) which are pretty neutral stages.

No team really counterpicks them well. Puffs get blown up because of the raw power of the team, spacies die way too quick/get gimped, and Sheik grab shenanigans don't work that well because its teams.

Overall, its a fantastic team. I'd go so far as to say its one of the best in the game. I know Axe and Kage aren't teaming for Genesis, but I'd be really interested to see how they'd do if they did. Frankly, with the way they dominated Zenith, I wouldn't be surprised if they could win the whole thing....
 

JPOBS

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If I may go out on a limb, I'm going to play devils advocate here. What they did was amazing, no doubt, but I think the particular teams in effects at Zenith had a lot to do with their success.

They played teams like mango/G$ and M2k/Hax. Good teams with good players. BUT, I really want to se how they would do vs:

PP and Lozr
M2k and Jman
Mango and Lucky
Hbox and Hax
Armada and Amsah/Aniolas

Imo, those are the definitive teams in competition right now, and none of those combinations were at play.

One thing I will say tho is that I was hella impressed by Kage's ability to kill mango's Puff effciently. Ganon is so strong and puff is so light that Bairs/Fairs kill puff much better than most moves other characters of, and they don't even have to be combo'd into. Single hit bairs/fairs were ****** puff.
Axe of course was amazing, its like impossible to edgeguard pikachu in teams lol

Edit: out of curiosity, anyone know why didn't Jman/M2k team and Hbox/Hax team? was it because zenith wasn't a monster tournament so they just did whatever?
 

TheCrimsonBlur

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Oh for sure. They still have to prove they could beat those 5 teams. But, ****, watching their games at Zenith makes me think they could do it.

I think at the very least we can conclude that they'd be competitive. And that Ganon/Pika isn't just some random mid-tier combo; its the real deal.
 

rhan

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Most of the low tier characters are legit in teams. Because where they lack their partner character can make up for it. Pika had the gimp ability and ability to save while Ganon has the ability to kill everything.
 

Strong Badam

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I want to see Axe & Kage team at a Pound 5/Genesis 2 size tourney. Too bad they aren't teaming at Genesis 2 XD

anyway me and vectorman are taking Genesis 2 so it's irrelevant :)
 

Anth0ny

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Honestly, with the way they absolutely man-handled the competition at Zenith, I'm pretty sure if Axe and Kage teamed at Genesis and played well they'd win it all. They made it look easy, not even Mango's puff stood a chance.
 

TheCrimsonBlur

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Most of the low tier characters are legit in teams. Because where they lack their partner character can make up for it. Pika had the gimp ability and ability to save while Ganon has the ability to kill everything.
Yeah, their performance makes me think that maybe we haven't experimented with team combinations enough. Most of the time, we just mash together two good singles characters and hope they do well. There are other low/mid tier combos (or a low/mid tier with a high tier) that we simply haven't seen played at a high level yet.
 

t3h Icy

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I wonder if a double Sheik team could work? Pair up Amsah with Mew2King or something. Maybe Tope, who seemed more comfy than Mew2King vs Axe's Pikachu in singles (based on crews at Apex and Zenith).
 

Metal Reeper

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Kage and Axe played their team roles perfectly. Axe would gimp/make them recover very risky, then Kage would capitalize on the risky business.
 

KishPrime

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I like double-sheik as a solid counter. However, I don't think anyone would play it, or that you'd find two top Sheiks on a team that would be good enough to play it against a top-caliber Ganon and Pika.

It's a great combo. I wanted to push Ganon up to third on my teams tier list so bad, because I think he has that kind of potential in teams situations. Couldn't do it, because results didn't bear it out. I'm not convinced that Pikachu really adds much that other characters couldn't add, but I'll admit, I haven't watched the videos yet. I hope to check them out tonight or tomorrow.
 

Mind Trick

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I think Pikachu is one of the two really who's strengths make him better in teams than in singles of the low/mid tiers, together with Luigi (perhaps Zelda too to some degree...). Sure, your partner can cover some of your weaknesses but it's still preferable to have a well rounded character yourself. Most of the things that trouble low tiers are even amplified in teams, such as mew2/dk being big targets, or no oos options for yoshi.

This team seems really solid though, I have no idea who would win if they would play those top 5 teams listed.
 

DoH

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Pikachu functions like Fox in teams. Fast, agile, gimps, and strong upward kills. People know how to deal with Fox though.

Also they didn't fight a team with a high level Peach on it.
 

ERayz

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Pikachu functions like Fox in teams. Fast, agile, gimps, and strong upward kills. People know how to deal with Fox though.

Also they didn't fight a team with a high level Peach on it.
I agree with what you say, Pikachu really functions like Fox in team + he has an almost impossible to edgeguard recovery

I don,t know how they would do against a team with a high level Peach, but I know Kage plays with Vwins a lot so I'm sure Kage knows how to handle this matchup.

I'd add that Axe is a very intelligent player, and Kage has a lot of experience in doubles ( he plays with Vwins/Bam/PKMvodka like all the time, and all they do is 2v2) + what was said in previous posts about Pika/Ganon team. I believe Axe/Kage could potentially be one of the best team in history .
 

Divinokage

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Who's next in doing the Ganon/Pika teams? =P But ya at Genesis 2, there's no way I can team with Axe, he's teaming with Taj while I team with Fuzzyness. Maybe next time. =D
 

-ShadowPhoenix-

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Pikachu functions like Fox in teams. Fast, agile, gimps, and strong upward kills. People know how to deal with Fox though.
I agree with what you say, Pikachu really functions like Fox in team + he has an almost impossible to edgeguard recovery
Basically this.

Plus Kage is amazing at being a stock saver and hits very hard
 

N64

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I think Falcon/Pika is a better combo, and probably one of pika's best teams combos, but Ganon/Pika ain't bad. It feels to me like Ganon/Pika have a bit too much variance in matchups though. Sheik can be really rough to deal with on that team, once pika gets caught things get really dicey.

But oh man do they **** spacies.
 

Strong Badam

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Team dynamics ruin almost anything that singles match-up say outside of Fox killing Jiggs quickly or anyone for that matter. Edgeguarding is less guaranteed, approach is WAY more hectic, etc.
Ganon/Pika do work in 1v1 and in the mess that doubles are liable to cause. Dat fair. Plus Pika can get away with more random Upsmashes than usual, similar to how with DK I'm able to use Fair a lot more in doubles than in singles. Too hectic.
 

Hax

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Ganon is mad nice in teams. easily top 7 and probably even better. he doesn't have a lot of the flaws he has in singles as long as you have a partner like axe protecting you when your shield is getting *****

i still think Fox would be a better partner than Pikachu but either one works. Fox is like an upgraded Pikachu though
 

KishPrime

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Jiggs would die to this team a lot, plus Ganon doesn't always die to rest until he gets up to higher %s, so you can't kill him as low, either. Better than Peach, I think, but not by much.

I like Sheik/Sheik, Sheik/Fox, and Sheik/Ganon as nice character counters.
 

Divinokage

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The only thing Fox doesn't have that Pika has is the ability to go off-stage. Fox trying to help Ganon-offstage is x10 more risky than if Pika helps Ganon with a quick upair or a jolt. And Ganon barely even needs to help Pika recover since his recovery is better than Fox. All I have to do is make people scared to go close to the ledge and that's it lol.
 

Dart!

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i don't think this topic was necessary. we know kage and axe were good teammates. you won't see ganon/pika teams rising out of the woodwork though.
 

Divinokage

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I think it was necessary because you can compare how good Pika can be with Ganon since it's an unusual team. I mean for me, it helped me see what you can do more or less with that team combination. It's a lot stronger than I initially thought it was going to be for sure.
 

King Funk

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BUT, I really want to se how they would do vs:

PP and Lozr
M2k and Jman
Mango and Lucky
Hbox and Hax
Armada and Amsah

Imo, those are the definitive teams in competition right now, and none of those combinations were at play.
Uh... no.

They don't really ever team.
 

TheCrimsonBlur

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i don't think this topic was necessary. we know kage and axe were good teammates. you won't see ganon/pika teams rising out of the woodwork though.
You won't see Ganon/Pika teams rising out of the woodwork because there aren't many Ganons or Pikas.

Personally, I think discussing how two mid tiers just won a very stacked teams tournament is pretty interesting.
 

slartibartfast42

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I've always held that pika is good in teams. I love playing pika and use him in teams because he's really good at gimps and edgeguarding, straight KO's with fsmash/upsmash, recovery/saving his partner, and generally disrupting things with thundershock/repositioning uairs. On top of all this his speed lets him actually get into the spot he needs to be to do all those things.

My singles main is peach, but my pikachu seems to get me a lot farther in teams.
 
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