• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Snake vs. Snake

Underload

Lazy
Joined
Nov 1, 2008
Messages
3,433
Location
Morrison, Colorado
Discuss the ditto in here. Discussion is open indefinitely. Don't be afraid to post.

:snake::023:

Bulletpoints:
  • Talk about a jerk matchup. Whatever you may have learned from other matchups probably doesn't apply hear. The ditto requires you to be a lot more careful than usual, just because your opponent can do everything you can.
  • Your grab game should mostly consist of side throws (fthrow & bthrow). Getting Snake offstage will put you in a great edgeguarding position, so (please) make that the focus of your grab game.
  • He who ftilts first, loses.
  • Grenades are kind of bad in this matchup. They're alright, but use them sparingly. C4 tends to work better for whatever reason.
  • Try getting edgeguards for the kill. If you can't help it, then pick your utilt openings carefully. You might get asploded in the face.
  • There's nothing to ban, since you're kind of the same character.
  • If you're good with your recovery, go to Lylat Cruise or something. Otherwise, it's all your own choice, seeing as you're playing against yourself.
  • 50:50, duh.
Notable Posts:
He's a jerk. Therefore you are a jerk. Be a jerk. More serious post to come later, but quick things right now, bthrow/fthrow are better in this matchup than dthrow imo. Ftilt wins most everything, and uair is ****.
Ah, Snake dittos. Most people seem to hate them, but I enjoy them. This matchup isn't really as complex as most of the other top tier ones, but I'll write something up since Fatal and I end up doing Snake dittos almost every tourney.

Some things to note are Snake does a good job of edge guarding himself. Make sure you utilize this. He can also camp himself, though Snake can approach himself really well too. Getting Snake in the air or off stage is also a great way to give yourself a massive advantage, as Snake always ***** the ground.

Pivot grabbing Snake's landings are a great idea in this matchup. If Snake is coming towards you with him facing you, a pivot grab will snag him, unless he pivot nades instead. If you predict the pivot nades, just grab the Snake right before he lands.

Ftilting works great for both Snakes, it comes down to who is better at landing it and who is less predictable with it. You can punish a whiffed ftilt out of shield with your own ftilt quite easily.

Killing Snake in Snake dittos is very tricky sometimes. While you have many kill moves, when the opponent is at high % they'll expect the predictable utilt KO and hide in shield until you throw it out and just ftilt you. This means, read and bait. If your opponent has sidestep habits at those kind of up close situations, bait it and utilt him after it. If it's a roll, wait for it then kill. If he just hides in shield, grab him, dthrow, then attempt to tech chase KO.

Speaking of which, tech chasing in this matchup can be weird. Snake's roll away goes VERY far and pretty fast. It's almost unpublishable, and is unpublishable unless you predict it. You cannot react to it and re-grab. So instead, if you think it's coming, you can try for a grab or you can run and ftilt or simply Dacus. If you grab near the edge though, you can tech chase pretty well. Snake's getup attack is pathetic, his getup to jab is pretty hard to punish, but that's about it. Sometimes Bthrow is a better throw option, but when the Snake is at kill %, nothing is more reliable than dthrow to tech chase KO attempt. 9/10 times if they're smart, they'll try to roll away to avoid the utilt punish ;D.

And speaking of Dacus, don't mindlessly approach with it. It's very punishable on shield. You can be pivot grabbed out of it, ftilted out of it, shielded then punished, or even fsmashed with good spacing. Use it to get to the edge faster to edge guard. What I've been doing lately with dacus is using it to punish if I can't reach with an ftilt or utilt. Instead of a regular dash attack, I do the dacus that's activated when you hit the opponent. This one is much better for punishing than a regular Dacus IMO. With regular Dacus, the hitboxes change and you may miss punishing them. With 100% hitting with dash attack first, you're guaranteed the punish and even may pop them up in the air and hit them with the usmash.

Moving onto explosives, all of them are useful in this matchup. Even the Nikita. I try to keep nades out or around me at all times, it screws up the other Snake quite a bit. But you need to be good at dealing with the opponents nades and dodging them as there can be up to 4 nades at once on the field. Mines can be pretty useful, as if your opponent likes to Dacus they may Dacus right into it eventually. However, you may too if you forget about it. When I'm at high %, I usually don't charge the mine. If I'm at low %, fully charge is a good idea. As for C4, I find using it to KO works really well if you're good at hiding it. It also depends how good your opponent is at keeping track of it, or even yourself. And Nikita? Ally/Fatal love to use it on Snakes that recover high. It makes the Snake nervous and if it catches them, it could be an instant early KO.

Edge guarding is very important in this matchup. Just like with other characters, they thrive on edge guarding Snake for those early quick kills. You have many options to edgeguard with. Usmash, Nades, C4/Mines, even Fairs off stage (I wouldn't recommend this too often, even in a Snake ditto). What I like to do a lot is to cover Snake's landing options around a certain area. I'll drop a nade right next to the ledge and walk away from it and charge a usmash so that no matter what, the Snake will most likely get hit by something. Putting a mine near the edge can help greatly too, though Snake can pull out a nade and perfect shield land on it. Do note that. Also cooking a nade and tossing it up at Snake's Up B can net you an early KO if the Snake doesn't expect it.

As for recovering yourself, I'd mostly go for recovering high and fast. Landing can be tricky against smart Snakes, because pivot grab covers a lot of your options, and being predictable with pivot nade isn't a great idea, so mix it up a lot. Rarely do you wanna land with a Bair/Nair/Uair, but sometimes it can work well as a surprise, especially if you wait until nearly the very last possible frame to land a Bair on the ground.

Overall, just like any ditto, it comes down to who's the better and smarter player. Don't get ***** by explosives or ftilt spammed. This is a very bad matchup to have sidestep/rolling habits in, you do not want to eat ftilts the entire match.
Yea, I do Snake dittos a lot xd. I left out the pros/cons/cps/bans because I feel it's useless in a ditto. Just cp what you think your opponent will be bad at or what you're really good at. I CP to FD/SV in Snake dittos cuz I do very well there in them. I also feel a matchup ratio means nothing in dittos too. Even though some try to claim it's 55:45 to the higher port Snake.
Snake dittos are gay. Also you can regrab a snake if they roll forward from your dgrab by boost grabbing. Boom.
There are three main laws to this matchup that I think everyone should follow.

1. If you throw out the first ftilt, 9 times out of 10 it'll get powershielded and you'll end up with the knee to the face.
2. Grenades are sort of bad to use in large numbers, unless you're fantastic at cooking them and your opponent is a moron.
3. Only dthrow if you're somewhere near a ledge, so you can cut off some of the distance on forward roll. Then Snake's really easy to techchase. Otherwise, you and to f/bthow him off the stage and set up an edgeguard from above (usually a mortar).

aka bump 4 more discussion
This is probably the only matchup where every single one of Snake's moves has a purpose.
 

TwentyTwo

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Messages
617
Location
Northern Virginia, <3 Ramona Flowers
He's a jerk. Therefore you are a jerk. Be a jerk. More serious post to come later, but quick things right now, bthrow/fthrow are better in this matchup than dthrow imo. Ftilt wins most everything, and uair is ****.
 

etecoon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
5,731
side throws are better USUALLY but if you get him facing the edge close enough then he loses his roll away advantage so dthrow is still better then

this matchup is really stupid and is a huge part of the reason I'd rather use marth -_-
 

smashkng

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
1,742
Location
Malmö, Sweden
NNID
Smashsk
3DS FC
0318-7423-9293
Snake can roll away safe from regrabs and Ftilts from dthrow if there's no ledge close to him.

IMO people who don't like the dittos don't have matchup experience on it. It's much easier when you know it. And it's no where more gay than DDD dittos, IC dittos or Falco dittos.
 

Bizkit047

Smash Lord
Joined
May 16, 2008
Messages
1,632
Ah, Snake dittos. Most people seem to hate them, but I enjoy them. This matchup isn't really as complex as most of the other top tier ones, but I'll write something up since Fatal and I end up doing Snake dittos almost every tourney.

Some things to note are Snake does a good job of edge guarding himself. Make sure you utilize this. He can also camp himself, though Snake can approach himself really well too. Getting Snake in the air or off stage is also a great way to give yourself a massive advantage, as Snake always ***** the ground.

Pivot grabbing Snake's landings are a great idea in this matchup. If Snake is coming towards you with him facing you, a pivot grab will snag him, unless he pivot nades instead. If you predict the pivot nades, just grab the Snake right before he lands.

Ftilting works great for both Snakes, it comes down to who is better at landing it and who is less predictable with it. You can punish a whiffed ftilt out of shield with your own ftilt quite easily.

Killing Snake in Snake dittos is very tricky sometimes. While you have many kill moves, when the opponent is at high % they'll expect the predictable utilt KO and hide in shield until you throw it out and just ftilt you. This means, read and bait. If your opponent has sidestep habits at those kind of up close situations, bait it and utilt him after it. If it's a roll, wait for it then kill. If he just hides in shield, grab him, dthrow, then attempt to tech chase KO.

Speaking of which, tech chasing in this matchup can be weird. Snake's roll away goes VERY far and pretty fast. It's almost unpublishable, and is unpublishable unless you predict it. You cannot react to it and re-grab. So instead, if you think it's coming, you can try for a grab or you can run and ftilt or simply Dacus. If you grab near the edge though, you can tech chase pretty well. Snake's getup attack is pathetic, his getup to jab is pretty hard to punish, but that's about it. Sometimes Bthrow is a better throw option, but when the Snake is at kill %, nothing is more reliable than dthrow to tech chase KO attempt. 9/10 times if they're smart, they'll try to roll away to avoid the utilt punish ;D.

And speaking of Dacus, don't mindlessly approach with it. It's very punishable on shield. You can be pivot grabbed out of it, ftilted out of it, shielded then punished, or even fsmashed with good spacing. Use it to get to the edge faster to edge guard. What I've been doing lately with dacus is using it to punish if I can't reach with an ftilt or utilt. Instead of a regular dash attack, I do the dacus that's activated when you hit the opponent. This one is much better for punishing than a regular Dacus IMO. With regular Dacus, the hitboxes change and you may miss punishing them. With 100% hitting with dash attack first, you're guaranteed the punish and even may pop them up in the air and hit them with the usmash.

Moving onto explosives, all of them are useful in this matchup. Even the Nikita. I try to keep nades out or around me at all times, it screws up the other Snake quite a bit. But you need to be good at dealing with the opponents nades and dodging them as there can be up to 4 nades at once on the field. Mines can be pretty useful, as if your opponent likes to Dacus they may Dacus right into it eventually. However, you may too if you forget about it. When I'm at high %, I usually don't charge the mine. If I'm at low %, fully charge is a good idea. As for C4, I find using it to KO works really well if you're good at hiding it. It also depends how good your opponent is at keeping track of it, or even yourself. And Nikita? Ally/Fatal love to use it on Snakes that recover high. It makes the Snake nervous and if it catches them, it could be an instant early KO.

Edge guarding is very important in this matchup. Just like with other characters, they thrive on edge guarding Snake for those early quick kills. You have many options to edgeguard with. Usmash, Nades, C4/Mines, even Fairs off stage (I wouldn't recommend this too often, even in a Snake ditto). What I like to do a lot is to cover Snake's landing options around a certain area. I'll drop a nade right next to the ledge and walk away from it and charge a usmash so that no matter what, the Snake will most likely get hit by something. Putting a mine near the edge can help greatly too, though Snake can pull out a nade and perfect shield land on it. Do note that. Also cooking a nade and tossing it up at Snake's Up B can net you an early KO if the Snake doesn't expect it.

As for recovering yourself, I'd mostly go for recovering high and fast. Landing can be tricky against smart Snakes, because pivot grab covers a lot of your options, and being predictable with pivot nade isn't a great idea, so mix it up a lot. Rarely do you wanna land with a Bair/Nair/Uair, but sometimes it can work well as a surprise, especially if you wait until nearly the very last possible frame to land a Bair on the ground.

Overall, just like any ditto, it comes down to who's the better and smarter player. Don't get ***** by explosives or ftilt spammed. This is a very bad matchup to have sidestep/rolling habits in, you do not want to eat ftilts the entire match.
 

etecoon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
5,731
regrab isn't guaranteed from roll away after dthrow even if it's predicted, I think snake is the only character that has that going for him actually lol
 

napZzz

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
5,294
Location
cg, MN
god **** bizkits post is ****.

if you can tell what a snake is bad at you can decide where to cp. I personally just like to go to janky stages for fun and because i dont like tossing nades back and forth on neutrals with flat ground all around >=[
 

Bizkit047

Smash Lord
Joined
May 16, 2008
Messages
1,632
Yea, I do Snake dittos a lot xd. I left out the pros/cons/cps/bans because I feel it's useless in a ditto. Just cp what you think your opponent will be bad at or what you're really good at. I CP to FD/SV in Snake dittos cuz I do very well there in them. I also feel a matchup ratio means nothing in dittos too. Even though some try to claim it's 55:45 to the higher port Snake.
 

gallax

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 2, 2008
Messages
5,641
Location
Orlando(UCF), Fl
snake dittos are quite possibly the best thing in the entire game. if u want to learn how to use snake better just do more dittos. they teach you spacing, how to effectively roll/predict a roll behind snake/you, how to edgeguard, how to tech-chase, how to use grenades and mortars, etc...

me and my friend radix do snake dittos all the time. we actually have a few tourney vids saved last week where we snake dittoed. ill get them and post them here. and it was losers finals too with the snake dittos so u know they are high quality matches!
 
Joined
Jun 4, 2007
Messages
1,561
Location
Savannah, Georgia
NNID
LilG912
snake dittos are quite possibly the best thing in the entire game. if u want to learn how to use snake better just do more dittos. they teach you spacing, how to effectively roll/predict a roll behind snake/you, how to edgeguard, how to tech-chase, how to use grenades and mortars, etc...

me and my friend radix do snake dittos all the time. we actually have a few tourney vids saved last week where we snake dittoed. ill get them and post them here. and it was losers finals too with the snake dittos so u know they are high quality matches!
gallax, i agree w/ you on there, learning moar shiz w/ snake in snake dittos is worth it to make your snake better. :bigthumbu
 

Toneh

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 9, 2004
Messages
1,353
Location
Orlando, Florida (UCF)
Snake dittos are gay. Also you can regrab a snake if they roll forward from your dgrab by boost grabbing. Boom.
i duno how u and ally hate snake dittos lol. U gota play me and gallax more =)

About dittos, they'll make ur snake alot better and break bad habits. You also get to borrow stuff from the person ur playin against

regrab isn't guaranteed from roll away after dthrow even if it's predicted, I think snake is the only character that has that going for him actually lol
boost grab. I guess me gallax and razer are the only ones that do it. Fatal/Bizkit i cant tell bc they hardly ever downthrow lol
 

Toneh

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 9, 2004
Messages
1,353
Location
Orlando, Florida (UCF)
how do u do it.
Down on cstick + Z is hard, it dash attacks all the time for me. So i do A+Z.
That or R+A, whichever u shield with


That shiz also helps for peach, lucario, and wolf rolls. Funny when they think they can run
 

smashkng

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
1,742
Location
Malmö, Sweden
NNID
Smashsk
3DS FC
0318-7423-9293
I don't think regrab a roll away without any obstacles in the way on another Snake is possible even with boost grab. I already can't regrab Link 100% of the time and it requires 100% prediction, but Snake's roll away is even longer.
 

etecoon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
5,731
boost grab. I guess me gallax and razer are the only ones that do it. Fatal/Bizkit i cant tell bc they hardly ever downthrow lol
I use boost grab a lot, it's still not guaranteed, it WILL work sometimes or maybe even most of the time because it's a frame trap of sorts but if they know how to get out it won't work

and lol ally o_O I remember your brother making a topic complaining about you and "that gay tech that extends snake's grab range"...I think the easiest way to do it is hit A then R quickly
 

etecoon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
5,731
something happening in a game doesn't mean that it's guaranteed, susa and velox tested this months ago. if you'd tested it vs all counter options yourself then I'd be inclined to believe that but anecdotal evidence doesn't mean anything
 

Today

ლ(இДஇლ)
Joined
Sep 4, 2009
Messages
4,960
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio ; Land of Happiness and Kindness
NNID
Daylightful
Ah! I'm still working on my boost pivot grabbing. But yeah! Normally I just run fast then press the opposite side of the C stick, r, and z so fast it's like the same time? XD; But a lot of times I end up rolling. But it's good to work on that!
 

UltimateRazer

Smash Champion
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
2,989
Location
Houston, TX
Wtf...? I've done it. You have to be on time though. If you start late then it won't work. Thats why its a prediction....boost grab works.

Its much harder on the wiimote though -.-
 

6Mizu

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 28, 2009
Messages
2,975
Location
Somewhere in the SubspaceEmissary(NC, Morrisville)
Hasn't this particular MU been discussed before in multiple different places? (EX: Social for like an entire page)

I do Snake Dittos pretty often with...my friends rPSI. There fun to play when you don't play seriously, but otherwise they're annoying!
 

Underload

Lazy
Joined
Nov 1, 2008
Messages
3,433
Location
Morrison, Colorado
There are three main laws to this matchup that I think everyone should follow.

1. If you throw out the first ftilt, 9 times out of 10 it'll get powershielded and you'll end up with the knee to the face.
2. Grenades are sort of bad to use in large numbers, unless you're fantastic at cooking them and your opponent is a moron.
3. Only dthrow if you're somewhere near a ledge, so you can cut off some of the distance on forward roll. Then Snake's really easy to techchase. Otherwise, you and to f/bthow him off the stage and set up an edgeguard from above (usually a mortar).

aka bump 4 more discussion
 

smashkng

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
1,742
Location
Malmö, Sweden
NNID
Smashsk
3DS FC
0318-7423-9293
I think this is one of the few matchups where Nikita has uses. If Snake recovers high he is fairly vulnerable to it when landing. I've seen it in some of Ally's Snake ditto matches. And I've sometimes surprised people with it to get kills by seeming that they get a free Ftilt when they have to watch out for a Nikita behind them which is better than hitting with the Ftilt.
 

TheTrueLombardi

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
29
Location
GA
I actually kinda like the matcup myself. Only to get the feeling that i can get over even my own setups and obstacles. I recall fighting bizkit a few times, namely him because the others suck, and I say it takes a lot of reading. I recall him mostly reading by rolls and tilts and when used incorrectly, Punishment. However, ive got a grip on myself since then. Other than this, u gotta have good nade game, and grab game since most snakes tend to shield alot to avoid the other snakes high damaging moves. Last but not least, just be smart. All snake players just have to be smart. Snake isnt just good, we all make him good. Take his potential and use it to our advantage. Since snake is my secondary, I prefer to go falco unless Im in that rare mood.
 

napZzz

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
5,294
Location
cg, MN
Ah! I'm still working on my boost pivot grabbing. But yeah! Normally I just run fast then press the opposite side of the C stick, r, and z so fast it's like the same time? XD; But a lot of times I end up rolling. But it's good to work on that!
It takes like, 2 minutes to learn
Mmmm I love me some snake dittos... Up Smashes are wonderful for Edgeguarding, spam the **** of them!
Mortars and aerials work wonders at sending that other snake back off stage =D
I think this is one of the few matchups where Nikita has uses. If Snake recovers high he is fairly vulnerable to it when landing. I've seen it in some of Ally's Snake ditto matches. And I've sometimes surprised people with it to get kills by seeming that they get a free Ftilt when they have to watch out for a Nikita behind them which is better than hitting with the Ftilt.
I killed ally with the nikita in a mm. beast
 

Darkshadow7827

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 21, 2007
Messages
1,532
Location
Lower reaches of Shelbrunkand
You can boost grab using A + Z or R + Z? I only use C-stick down + Z - never knew there were other ways. Anyway, if Snake is low (for whatever reason) and has to C4 recover, footstool can work wonders. If you mess up, you'll probably take as much damage as your opponent, who needs to C4 recover in the first place. I dunno if I'd try this in a tourney, but it's pretty fun in friendlies.
 

Yumewomiteru

Smash Master
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
3,367
Location
Allston, MA
NNID
yumewomiteru
nah go for the footstool, if you miss, you can easily cypher back up while your opponent is trying to recover himself.
 

Bizkit047

Smash Lord
Joined
May 16, 2008
Messages
1,632
I do it to Fatal a lot. It's very worth doing if you practice it. As long as you set it up so that you only use your first jump to go down for the footstool and not your double jump or else if you miss you die, otherwise jump down spam jump the second you hear "Now" and hope for a footstool which will most likely instantly KO the Snake if you're low enough. It's easy to recover from too. I don't see a lot of people do this for some reason, it's ****. Just note that smarter Snakes may DI AWAY from the stage when they C4 themselves to attempt to avoid this, and it can work if you don't attempt to footstool close enough to the Snake.

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_MQ_tmuX18#t=3m54s is a perfect example of how to do it and how great it is.
 
Top Bottom