smooth lander- the one custom equipment that should be legal

[GameWatching]

woah lots of users reading the thread, hopefully people try it out!

I think everyone was redirected from Reddit.

 

[Muro]

even so, if more people try it out we can get more feedback.

 

[Enrel]

Smoothe lander is kinda cool sure, but it seems like it's more of a hassle to set up for any sort of serious play.

 

[Muro]

I can't find the exact post, but someone found an easy way to get it.

 

[Ividboy]

Both the people who are saying that smooth lander+heavy gravity would make the metagame better/more watchable and the people who are saying that it would completely break the balance of the game have almost no evidence to base their statements on. The questions that matter right now are, " Is this easily implemented?" "Does it have the potential to increase depth/improve watchability?"and, "Does it have the potential to reduce depth/decrease watchability?" To the first question the factually correct answer is yes as the only things you have to do from booting the game for the first time is beat 100 man smash(or do any other challenge that gets you a hammer) and use the hammer on the 7th panel from the left, at the top. To the second and third questions the answer is also yes, it has the potential to improve the metagame by making it faster, with more combos, but it also has the potential to make the metagame worse, by greatly reducing the viability of most of the characters because the metagame is working off of attributes the balance wasn't designed for. At best we have a game that can rival the hype, depth, and speed of melee(extremely unlikely/impossible) and at worst we have a game with worse balance than brawl(also very unlikely), but to find out if the game created fits any of these scenarios, or anything in between, we need to ACTUALLY TEST IT, so stop instinctively saying that this will ruin the game without any evidence. I am personally very hopeful of the potential this has to improve the metagame, but only time and testing will tell.

TL;DR: Actually test the thing before you denounce it, as it is easy to get, and has the potential to improve the metagame.

Sorry if this has all been said already, but I didn't feel like reading 12 pages of this, I wanted to inform some people of the possibilities (including those recently joining us from the subreddit) and I kinda needed to get that off my chest after reading some of the posts in here.

 

[LimitCrown]

The heavy gravity doesn't seem like it would be beneficial to the metagame at all since it makes it harder for air attacks that can auto-cancel to auto-cancel and it would make vertical K.O.s harder to get.

 

[Sleek Media]

I spent a day playing with smooth lander. Here's some observations:


First, the offensive gains on-hit are very sparse. There are very, very few combos smooth lander allows, since landing aerials so rarely link into other moves at this level of hitstun. They are almost exclusively low-% followups like MM fair-dtilt or Marth fair-ftilt. (Followups which normally frame trap anyway; SL just makes them true combo instead)

If you think the game feels substantially different on-hit, sorry. Placebo is a hell of a drug.


Second, what DOES change dramatically is on-block behavior, though really only for fast characters. Characters with ~10 frame landing lag aerials are now safe on block unspaced. So moves like:

• Diddy bair
• Palutena fair
• Sheik fair/bair
• ZSS bair/uair
• Mario bair/uair
• Falcon bair/uair

...become safe on block. They still give the opponent frame advantage, but it's so low that it's not actionable for almost anyone. (Maybe Mario, Marth, or Bowser can up-b)

This huge gameplay change had two implications:


First totally-safe-aerials was REALLY unenjoyable to play against. I normally don't roll much (rolling is bad and shielding is better), but now shielding is useless the moment these characters jump. So I ended up rolling a lot more. There was a lot more running away in general, since standing your ground against aerials was way less viable.

Second, this only applies to the characters listed. Poor Ganondorf and Charizard; we'd still shield and punish their failed aerials all day long. Sometimes punishments were a little less (most smashes won't work), but that's small consolation when Diddy is doing a tap-dance on your face with a bair that is safe-on-block regardless of spacing.

It's very Melee-like in the sense that the fast top-tiers become broken, and everyone else gets to cry about it.


tl;dr - I still think that everyone's obsession with landing lag is completely misplaced. Reducing landing lag doesn't affect the purported goals--it doesn't add more on-hit options (combos), it doesn't help slow characters, and it forces people to roll more.

This implies that Melee is not the be-all end-all of Smash Bros, therefore you are trolling. Everyone knows Smash4 should be faster and have no defensive options. Fair is more than enough defense for anyone.

 

[AJ34]

Not a fan of this. The game is not balanced for this mode so some change in a future patch can possibly make something broken and the RNG of getting equipment that will balance out correctly is impossible.

 

[KACHOW!!!]

Someone tell me, but am I insane/ an ignorant moron for thinking this: Competitive smash 4 should either no custom moves, or no custom items (or both), no miis. Is the game really that well understood in the 3rd month of its existence (2nd if we're talking wii u, which is what we'll really all be playing at almost all tourneys), that we think we can start implementing a bastardized version en mass? Maybe... Maaaybe we should allow custom moves (some say it offers a wider level of depth that pushes the competitive viability of the game closer to PM or melee), but in all honesty, I hate the thought that someone might win tourneys just because they've got some freakish custom setup strategy. Idk, custom moves are cool in theory, but Idk whats really going to happen.

 

[Rajikaru]

I don't approve of the idea, there's too many wrong for a small thing that won't affect the game in a completely positive way. While, yes, people are overlooking the fact that you don't personally need the items and TOs can just decide what equipment is allowed and what isn't, it still doesn't add anything that makes the game flat out better for the general populous.

I personally like the way Sm4sh plays right now. The character balance isn't too skewed, lots of characters are fun to play, and the game isn't determined by who made a slip up and got pulled into an inescapable combo first. You don't need to muck up official Sm4sh competitive with all this equipment junk. Custom moves are fine, as they make some characters viable and aren't way out of line in terms of balancing, but there are so many variables in play when it comes to equipment, and the most you get from this custom equipment outside of casual friend play is suddenly some characters have advantages in areas other characters don't, which isn't what's wanted, as evidenced by stage bans existing. Not to mention what you're doing is essentially the same as making that "King of the Rock" mode an official competitive mode (taking a silly thing that could be fun when playing with or experimenting but requires too much work and trying to make it something legit when the game itself is solid and it doesn't add anything). Yeah, some characters feel like they did in Melee when these settings are used, but what about the characters that don't? You know, the vast majority? They have to adapt to a brand new playstyle that only benefits a minority.

Let the game's meta develop. There are a bunch of weird characters that may have untapped potential, as well as Clones that actually have unique playstyles. Plus, there are custom moves now. Find out how well those work, before you get into the literal millions of possibilities with Custom Equipment.

 

[GameWatching]

Remember that people are asking for this to be a side event at tournaments.
So don't just throw 'I don't like this idea, therefore it should not happen at all' because you don't like it.

 

[Piford]

After some testing, characters dies way to early with Smooth-Lander + Heavy Gravity. Bowser dies at like 40% to an uncharged ganondorf side smash. The game doesn't seem to become faster or increase combo potential with this; it seems to make it more defensive if anything. If I only need 2 hits before you're at kill percent then this is going to become people just playing it safe the entire time and no one getting hit. Only a few characters seem viable too, like Ganondorf and Bowser. It would ruin the game. It doesn't even increase combo potential because everyone is flying everywhere at such early percents.

 

[RocketSmash]

After some testing, characters dies way to early with Smooth-Lander + Heavy Gravity. Bowser dies at like 40% to an uncharged ganondorf side smash. The game doesn't seem to become faster or increase combo potential with this; it seems to make it more defensive if anything. If I only need 2 hits before you're at kill percent then this is going to become people just playing it safe the entire time and no one getting hit. Only a few characters seem viable too, like Ganondorf and Bowser. It would ruin the game. It doesn't even increase combo potential because everyone is flying everywhere at such early percents.

Did you use other equipment to balance out your stats or are you just using Smooth Lander? I have the Smooth Lander Brawn Badge + Agility Badge + Protection Badge and Bowser isn't dying to an uncharged side smash at 90 when we're at the middle of the stage.

 

[Piford]

Did you use other equipment to balance out your stats or are you just using Smooth Lander? I have the Smooth Lander Brawn Badge + Agility Badge + Protection Badge and Bowser isn't dying to an uncharged side smash at 90 when we're at the middle of the stage.

I only have Smooth Lander Brawn Badge.

 

[Epok]

I only have Smooth Lander Brawn Badge.

The other two badges that RocketSmash is referring to are standard. They are something you unlock. You should have them.

 

[1MachGO]

tl;dr - I still think that everyone's obsession with landing lag is completely misplaced. Reducing landing lag doesn't affect the purported goals--it doesn't add more on-hit options (combos), it doesn't help slow characters, and it forces people to roll more.

You're more or less arguing in favor of the fact that there really AREN'T any legitimate aerial approach options in the game. Smash 4 is super linear and I think that creates more intrinsic flaws than smooth lander

 

[Rajikaru]

Remember that people are asking for this to be a side event at tournaments.
So don't just throw 'I don't like this idea, therefore it should not happen at all' because you don't like it.

In the OP he's suggesting it be added to the meta, as well as in the thread title.

I don't know about anybody else but I'm not just throwing out "I don't like it, don't add it", I'm throwing out "It's way too complicated for a little change that isn't needed in the game currently and doesn't benefit most players so leave it out of official functions".

 

[kujibiki57]

I only have Smooth Lander Brawn Badge.

If you're using only a +attack badge, of course moves will kill earlier.

And that's sort of the problem with this, because not only you need a smooth lander bage and a heavy gravity badge, you also need them + one other equipment to balance all of the stats.
That's not as hard as it seems tough, and getting things like -2 or +4 doesn't really have any noticeable effects (like 1% less survivability)

I'm all for this being a side event, it really looks like it could be very interesting. Recoveries being nerfed also doesn't bother me too much because everyone's recovery is great already.

 

[Balgorxz]

It's really easy to get a semi balanced +-10 build in the first few hours of gameplay, stop obsessing over 0/0/0.

 

[NiZMO LS1]

First off, I am terrible at smash. Did the Shulk allstar easy in 6 min thing in 5:55 with Fsmash and Usmash so the difficulty is no big deal.
As far as complicated goes it took me 10min and a blunt to equip all characters with Smoove Lander/Protection/Agility.

Now I am not really advocating this be the norm because I love all these crazy Smash games and you awesome people, but WOW!! Can't believe how the game play becomes so fluid and free feeling.

Played some SL matchs with the GF(she loves PM but can't L-cancel) and she was all giddy because we were having some really hype 4-stock matches. Told her "so that's kinda how Pm/melee feels when you l-cancel, what do you think?" and I quote word for word-
IT"S BEAUTIFUL

 

[Piford]

The thing with trying to balance it with all +/- 10 or less is that it rewards people who randomly got the right equipment for all +10s. He's clearly at an advantage to the person who got all -10s. It turns this game into rewarding people who can grind for the best equipment. Also, this significantly hurts stage variety, as Final Destination is really the only stage that work well with Heavy gravity.

I'm fine with this being a side event, but there are a lot of people on the subreddit who say this is what Smash 4 should be. I don't want to play Smooth Lander Heavy Gravity competitively; I want to play Smash 4 the way using the physics it was designed to be played with. If I want to play a more combo-oriented Smash game, I can play PM or Melee which I find a lot more fun than the smooth lander heavy gravity. This will definitely divide the community even further if this is implemented in large scale tournaments, and it will likely stop new players from wanting to play Smash competitively.

 

[LimitCrown]

An argument that people have in favor of Smooth Lander + Heavy Gravity is that it makes the game more fun to watch due to there being more combos. I don't really understand why this would be the case when many characters would be hindered by the change in gameplay mechanics and few characters can take advantage of combos. Characters like Luigi, Dr. Mario, Sonic, Mega Man, Little Mac, the Mii Gunner, and others have their recovering ability severely reduced.

 

[Balgorxz]

An argument that people have in favor of Smooth Lander + Heavy Gravity is that it makes the game more fun to watch due to there being more combos. I don't really understand why this would be the case when many characters would be hindered by the change in gameplay mechanics and few characters can take advantage of combos. Characters like Luigi, Dr. Mario, Sonic, Mega Man, Little Mac, the Mii Gunner, and others have their recovering ability severely reduced.

luigi has tornado and he is one of the most rewarded characters by smooth lander, sonic and doc have trouble.
and mac well....yes

 

[Untouch]

I'd like to see a proper side tournament of this, it looks interesting and if there's a proper unlockable that gets rid of the grind.

I don't think having to get a hammer is a problem in any conceivable way because unlocked DHD's stage gets you one, and that stage is counterpick.

 

[Balgorxz]

I'd like to see a proper side tournament of this, it looks interesting and if there's a proper unlockable that gets rid of the grind.

I don't think having to get a hammer is a problem in any conceivable way because unlocked DHD's stage gets you one, and that stage is counterpick.

100 man smash gives you a hammer too

 

[Pyr]

<rant="sawtheHG+SLvid">

This will never be implemented on a large scale. It simply cannot be. There are so, so many cons that the benefits can't even be seen under the immense pile of cons.

But, with that video posted with smooth lander + gravity, I can at least say this now: All it is is selfishness. People want to make something standard, without testing it (and I have tested it. 10 viable characters at sub-optimal play will go down to Melee-level number of viable characters once characters are fleshed out, not to mention the insane difficulty of getting to 0/0/0. The stat bonuses are NOT linear in their effect), because they want to play the game how THEY want to play it. The only requirements competitive smash has ever had is that there are no items to eliminate the randomness and some stages that over-benefit a few characters, making camping possible, lead to unavoidable death, etc, are banned. This creates a barrier of entry. More on that later.

People wanting this don't give a **** about balance. They don't give a **** about barrier of entry. They don't give a **** about the health of the competitive or casual community, or the community as a whole. They want their playstyle (which they haven't even developed in a new game, by the way) to work just like it always has. When it doesn't, they ***** and moan and try to alienate 90% of the community because they have failed in a fundamental area of competition: adaptability. (sorry for the more direct attacks on character or skill or w/e for the people in support of this. The previous is kind of a touchy subject)

In the past few hours of reading and research, BY FAR the most common validation for this after the balance argument is brought up is "Screw balance, this is more fun." They need to add "for me" to the end of that. What this does is it butchers several characters out of viability. What about people who like a nice-sized roster and viability in the general cast? Right now, according to event hubs, the worst matchup is this:

1. Zero Suit Samus 7.9 / Olimar 2.1

Seems bad? Ganon had MORE THEN 1 100-0 matchup against him at some points in Brawl's history. Melee had 100-0s at certain points too. This is already the most balanced Smash game in the series, and will only become more balanced with balance patches (!!!) down the line. Those patches will not be tailored to this setup. Why ruin that because you think it's "more fun" that way? Why make it impossible for a player to just plug in a controller and play in a tournament? Why invalidate half the cast? Speaking of...

Half the cast gets a Mac-tier recovery. The other half? You weren't edguarding them before because of their auto-sweet spot and you aren't doing it now. In fact, if you try, especially with the half the cast that basically lose their off-stage recovery (with little to no compensation I might add), you'll die regardless of what you do. And, with characters that do still have a decent recovery, you might die anyway.

As always, I have no issues with testing this. All items should be explored. But this can never be implemented. It's not viable. The benefit for implementation at a large scale is far, far outweighed by the negatives, such as game balance, game health, community health, barriers of entry, which side the people doing the game balance will go for, and what people, in general, are looking for in Smash. We're a competitive smash community here. We are already in the minority. People wanting this? A minority of a minority (I hope).

I really hope this was like the heavy gravity and the damage ratio things in Brawl's infancy. Only a community as a whole and make a game grow competitively. Your local community? The state/providence/etc you live in? Nationally? It all comes together as a whole. Make it harder for one part to join in (barrier of entry for locals), harder for fan-favorites to play the character that made them fan favorites and generating hype or strengthening a characters community (Kage, Boss, King in concept, affecting all 3 levels) , or harder to watch from the outside (nationals, "This game doesn't match what I bought and am playing?") and you directly hurt the growth of the game, thus the competitive scene in general. Not looking for LoL level of growth, but some will be nice.

TL;DR: I've tested this. Test, have it as a fun mode like a free-for-all or items on or something. Keep it away from the competitive scene. Stop thinking this will ever be competitively viable because of all the reasons I just stated. Balance, alienation, barriers and such.

Selfish desires. There is never any hype for those except for the people with the desires.
</rant>

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Ugh... I regret making this thread. I've grown to really dislike smooth lander, despite how cool it is. I've found it's just not worth breaking the balance in such a way. But I also won't stand against those who do want it and low gravity. In the end, the community will make the decision.

 

[Starkiller2]

I brought this up to my region recently, I didn't even know there was an active discussion about this lol.

I would love to see this go through, at least as side event stuff. I like the idea of benefitting aerial approaches, but heavy gravity just seems like too much. Smooth landing would undoubtedly speed up the pace of the game, but heavy gravity seems like it would shorten the games even more, which would bring us back to the slow defensive play of the original in order to preserve stocks.

One of the primary arguments against smooth landing (and doubly so against using heavy gravity) is that its like what the community did to Brawl with PM. We didn't like the game, so it was changed to the way we like it. Its changing the game away from what its base design is to how we see fit, we could just as well mod it and we'd get more functionality. From a competitive view, we should stick to using default/out-of-the-box settings as much as possible, barring unlockable characters/stages.

If Melee/PM players do not like Smash 4 as it is, this isn't going to make them like it. Even if it did, it would be pandering to THEM, not to the actual players of smash 4.

 

[Balgorxz]

vanilla smash 4 is pretty good the way it is, but smash 4 is more than just regular smash the game was build to be fully customizable so people could experience multiple ways of playing the game, smooth lander alone and smooth lander gravity gameplay are completely different not better just different and most of the discussion isn't about changing all the focus to one style of gameplay but to be more open to all the option this game offers and realize its more than just a new smash game in HD.

 

[Lustersold]

People hate change. Let this play out and if it doesn't work we don't have to use it. Sakurai gave us lots of options for a reason.

 

[Muro]

Ugh... I regret making this thread. I've grown to really dislike smooth lander, despite how cool it is. I've found it's just not worth breaking the balance in such a way. But I also won't stand against those who do want it and low gravity. In the end, the community will make the decision.

could you update the OP with instructions to unlock the standard +36 atk -35 def by doing the challenge and letting people know they can use the (also) standard protection and agility badges available at the start of the game to get the stats to +22 atk, -14 def, and +7 spd?

 

[Galespark]

Hi, today i was testing some Smooth Lander + Heavy Gravity and... its GODLIKE. First, after spending about 10-20mins finishing All Stars with Shulk and getting a perfect in every Target Blast test I got the Bagde (quick and easy to get), went to character customization and put it to every character along with other 2 bagdes to even the stats. All stats values under "10" since theres no noticeable difference.

Characters dies at roughly the same percentages as regular gameplay, the overall speed of the game is increased significantly, more combos and setups are possible including previously known stuff from previous games (such as DK's cargo>upthrow>upair>neutralB or Dr.Mario Dthrow>FAir). Offstage gameplay feels a lot like melee/project m, its definitely a place you don't want to be and you need to be smarter about your recoveries.

Overall the game feels like a "techless" project m. It is fun to play and watch, and people should give this option a shot, and maybe the community will embrace this competitively in the future. Personally I'll be hosting a side event in February at my country's national to see how it goes.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Ok. If people want Smooth Lander, fine, but please let's not do heavy gravity? Everyone's recovery becomes significantly worse on stages, and the only way to often help that is to give them custom up bs that launch them farther but often come at a risk (usually it's no hitbox). I don't think forcing such a handicap on everyone is the best thing because not all characters are equipped to handle any of the increase gravity.

 

[Black Mantis]

<rant="sawtheHG+SLvid">

This will never be implemented on a large scale. It simply cannot be. There are so, so many cons that the benefits can't even be seen under the immense pile of cons.

But, with that video posted with smooth lander + gravity, I can at least say this now: All it is is selfishness. People want to make something standard, without testing it (and I have tested it. 10 viable characters at sub-optimal play will go down to Melee-level number of viable characters once characters are fleshed out, not to mention the insane difficulty of getting to 0/0/0. The stat bonuses are NOT linear in their effect), because they want to play the game how THEY want to play it. The only requirements competitive smash has ever had is that there are no items to eliminate the randomness and some stages that over-benefit a few characters, making camping possible, lead to unavoidable death, etc, are banned. This creates a barrier of entry. More on that later.

People wanting this don't give a **** about balance. They don't give a **** about barrier of entry. They don't give a **** about the health of the competitive or casual community, or the community as a whole. They want their playstyle (which they haven't even developed in a new game, by the way) to work just like it always has. When it doesn't, they ***** and moan and try to alienate 90% of the community because they have failed in a fundamental area of competition: adaptability. (sorry for the more direct attacks on character or skill or w/e for the people in support of this. The previous is kind of a touchy subject)

In the past few hours of reading and research, BY FAR the most common validation for this after the balance argument is brought up is "Screw balance, this is more fun." They need to add "for me" to the end of that. What this does is it butchers several characters out of viability. What about people who like a nice-sized roster and viability in the general cast? Right now, according to event hubs, the worst matchup is this:

1. Zero Suit Samus 7.9 / Olimar 2.1

Seems bad? Ganon had MORE THEN 1 100-0 matchup against him at some points in Brawl's history. Melee had 100-0s at certain points too. This is already the most balanced Smash game in the series, and will only become more balanced with balance patches (!!!) down the line. Those patches will not be tailored to this setup. Why ruin that because you think it's "more fun" that way? Why make it impossible for a player to just plug in a controller and play in a tournament? Why invalidate half the cast? Speaking of...

Half the cast gets a Mac-tier recovery. The other half? You weren't edguarding them before because of their auto-sweet spot and you aren't doing it now. In fact, if you try, especially with the half the cast that basically lose their off-stage recovery (with little to no compensation I might add), you'll die regardless of what you do. And, with characters that do still have a decent recovery, you might die anyway.

As always, I have no issues with testing this. All items should be explored. But this can never be implemented. It's not viable. The benefit for implementation at a large scale is far, far outweighed by the negatives, such as game balance, game health, community health, barriers of entry, which side the people doing the game balance will go for, and what people, in general, are looking for in Smash. We're a competitive smash community here. We are already in the minority. People wanting this? A minority of a minority (I hope).

I really hope this was like the heavy gravity and the damage ratio things in Brawl's infancy. Only a community as a whole and make a game grow competitively. Your local community? The state/providence/etc you live in? Nationally? It all comes together as a whole. Make it harder for one part to join in (barrier of entry for locals), harder for fan-favorites to play the character that made them fan favorites and generating hype or strengthening a characters community (Kage, Boss, King in concept, affecting all 3 levels) , or harder to watch from the outside (nationals, "This game doesn't match what I bought and am playing?") and you directly hurt the growth of the game, thus the competitive scene in general. Not looking for LoL level of growth, but some will be nice.

TL;DR: I've tested this. Test, have it as a fun mode like a free-for-all or items on or something. Keep it away from the competitive scene. Stop thinking this will ever be competitively viable because of all the reasons I just stated. Balance, alienation, barriers and such.

Selfish desires. There is never any hype for those except for the people with the desires.
</rant>

 

[AozoraX]

Tried this. Mainly Melee/PM.
Before anything - heavy gravity should be turned off. Characters just die like it's nothing... For nothing.

Smooth Lander makes the game way faster - and for a Melee player fun. However, I find that it is simply not the "core" of what Smash 4 originated to be- at least, competitively without custom moves.

It's definitely a great side event. And for me, I'll probably play Smash 4 with Smooth Lander for my own personal enjoyment. Rolls might be predominant but regardless I can still chase rolling and I can punish accordingly for a bad roll rather than an all around good roll no matter how safe my attack is.

But hey, Smash 4 ain't bad. And playing with Smooth Lander doesn't mess with any meta when we don't even use custom moves to begin with, hell you could have a NORMAL meta and a Smooth Lander meta. No one said it was gonna replace it - and whoever pushes that argument is acting a little closed minded about it (hence the term, "side event").

Anyway tldr Smooth Lander is fun Smash 4 is also fun why can't we just have fun

 

[TKD]

Wait. Smash 4 is BOTH Brawl 2.0 AND Melee 2.0? Did I die and go to heaven?

 

[Galespark]

Ok. If people want Smooth Lander, fine, but please let's not do heavy gravity? Everyone's recovery becomes significantly worse on stages, and the only way to often help that is to give them custom up bs that launch them farther but often come at a risk (usually it's no hitbox). I don't think forcing such a handicap on everyone is the best thing because not all characters are equipped to handle any of the increase gravity.

The only characters with this problem are Megaman and Sonic afaik, both characters recoveries don't even have a hitbox and since you are already using equipment, i don't see the problem of letting these characters use their other UpBs

 

[Muro]

I also read somewhere that mega man can just fast fall into his dog and jump again with normal height. Kinda like pac man lol

 

[Piford]

The only characters with this problem are Megaman and Sonic afaik, both characters recoveries don't even have a hitbox and since you are already using equipment, i don't see the problem of letting these characters use their other UpBs

Duck Hunt can't recover at all. Like Sonic and Mega Man can recover a bit, but Duck Hunt just sinks when you use his up special. Also King DeDeDe doesn't recover as high. It likely effects more character as well. but not as extreme.

 

[Prawn]

lol heavy gravity will never happen. Stop.