smooth lander- the one custom equipment that should be legal

[Muro]

I would much rather using some of the other badges than involve HG. If defensive options really needed to go, it would be better to just use dodgy dodger, imperfect shield, or shield degenerator. Anything other than HG which just wrecks recoveries and wrecks many sh auto cancels.

is there a list anywhere with all the challenge rewards? Items that can be obtained always with the same stats should be prioritized, so knowing what badges are obtained by default, or as a result of a challenge would be the starting point. Random stats on badges are too much of an hassle imo.

How exactly are shields too strong? Besides, you can grab an opponent who is shielding.

because that's pretty much your option when dealing with shields (better characters having a few more). If simply pressing shield cuts roughly 90% of your opponent's options maybe shields are too strong.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

is there a list anywhere with all the challenge rewards? Items that can be obtained always with the same stats should be prioritized, so knowing what badges are obtained by default, or as a result of a challenge would be the starting point. Random stats on badges are too much of an hassle imo.

http://www.ign.com/wikis/super-smash-bros-wii-u-3ds/Challenges

There's your list of rewards.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Equipment

Nothing there is good.

 

[Muro]

http://www.ign.com/wikis/super-smash-bros-wii-u-3ds/Challenges

There's your list of rewards.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Equipment

Nothing there is good.

I appreciate the links AND the snark

edit: actually that list is not really complete. And the other one explains equipment effects but also doesn't say which ones can be obtained always with the same stats. I was looking more for a list like the IGN one, but with the actual stats. Something like:

Challenge: Collect all of the special moves

Reward: Smooth Lander Brawn Badge, +35 attack, -36 defense.

but for every challenge. Anyway thanks for the links, they're very helpful even if not exactly what I was looking for.

 

[NewGuy79]

we really aught to look at different ways of changing the game eith smooth lander rather then high gravity, using it just changes the feel and mechanics of smash 4 to much to expect it to be widely accepted by the community. I know ive said it once before but has any one tried fiddling with the launch rates a smooth gravity? its something im looking into and I have a hunch it might be the answer to our problems

Ugh... I regret making this thread. I've grown to really dislike smooth lander, despite how cool it is. I've found it's just not worth breaking the balance in such a way. But I also won't stand against those who do want it and low gravity. In the end, the community will make the decision.

and eh dont be so glum man, this is good thread lots of discusion and experimentation is what we should be doing this early in the smash4 scene, I also wouldn't give up so early people are working at all angles trying to get smooth lander to work ( I've heard that people are trying power saves as well as hacking amiibo) so no sweat man keep your chin up!

 

[LimitCrown]

because that's pretty much your option when dealing with shields (better characters having a few more). If simply pressing shield cuts roughly 90% of your opponent's options maybe shields are too strong.

Shields are supposed to be useful against attacks. Besides, if shields can be easily beaten by a grab, then it isn't like they're incredibly strong.

The Imperfect Shield effect removes the ability to perfect shield attacks, which I think is a bad idea, and equipment with negative effects give you larger stat increases and smaller stat decreases, making it more difficult to balance the equipment.

 

[Muro]

Shields are supposed to be useful against attacks. Besides, if shields can be easily beaten by a grab, then it isn't like they're incredibly strong.

The Imperfect Shield effect removes the ability to perfect shield attacks, which I think is a bad idea, and equipment with negative effects give you larger stat increases and smaller stat decreases, making it more difficult to balance the equipment.

that was the tl;dr version, there's other threads where it's been elaborated by people more knowledgeable than me.

 

[NewGuy79]

Shields are supposed to be useful against attacks. Besides, if shields can be easily beaten by a grab, then it isn't like they're incredibly strong.

The Imperfect Shield effect removes the ability to perfect shield attacks, which I think is a bad idea, and equipment with negative effects give you larger stat increases and smaller stat decreases, making it more difficult to balance the equipment.

I don't quite agree, while yes garbing is indeed the natural counter to the shield. a defending player has far more counter play options then the attacker. say for instance if i were to incite a running grab to punish a highly defensive player I am forced to commit to the action, the defending player however has a multitude of action that they can do from shield to beat out my grab. namely; spot dodge, rolling left or right and jumping out of shield, now while all these options are reliant on the defenders raction time as things stand defence IMO give players and obvious advantage over offensive play.

granted I agree that I dont think weakening the shield is the correct response to this, I however do think smooth lander instead may be a steep in the right directions to solving this "problem".

I go into far more detail into what I mean in my post here, and I really dont think I can type that all over again. -_-

 

[Jugoken]

sakurai gave us custom equipment, we should use it to nerf and buff the low and cheap high tiers (which i dont think they are) however we see fit since hes not patching anymore. That way we can use smooth lander heavy grav. as a side option for a different type of competitive play.

 

[LimitCrown]

Sakurai said that there weren't any current plans for patching the game. It doesn't mean that the game will no longer be patched. Also, using custom equipment to nerf/buff certain characters would be incredibly complicated and it's not necessary.

 

[Pyr]

sakurai gave us custom equipment, we should use it to nerf and buff the low and cheap high tiers (which i dont think they are) however we see fit since hes not patching anymore. That way we can use smooth lander heavy grav. as a side option for a different type of competitive play.

2 things: Describing anything as cheap, even if you follow up with "Which I don't think they are," is the single best way to make me not take you seriously.

And, as others have said, he's got no CURRENT plans on balance patching. However, he hasn't said he's never patching again. It can be extrapolated that the reason for this is because he wants to see the game grow first.

 

[Jugoken]

2 things: Describing anything as cheap, even if you follow up with "Which I don't think they are," is the single best way to make me not take you seriously.

And, as others have said, he's got no CURRENT plans on balance patching. However, he hasn't said he's never patching again. It can be extrapolated that the reason for this is because he wants to see the game grow first.

DUDE, i really dont think there are cheap characters, i'm just hearing a lot of people talk about diddy being broken thats all. i've seen mr.E and Nairo use Marth and D.Pit to beat mew2king and NAKATS diddy kong so where there is a will there is A WAY. As for Sakurai patching again okay your right, but i dont think it would be anything significant unless aside from mewtwo.

 

[Pyr]

DUDE, i really dont think there are cheap characters, i'm just hearing a lot of people talk about diddy being broken thats all. i've seen mr.E and Nairo use Marth and D.Pit to beat mew2king and NAKATS diddy kong so where there is a will there is A WAY. As for Sakurai patching again okay your right, but i dont think it would be anything significant unless aside from mewtwo.

Well, it's been shown that they are listening to players and the game isn't exactly very unbalanced currently. The latter point shows that they aren't exactly incompetent this go-around. I'm willing to put my trust into them and see where it goes in a couple of years over an unreliable balancing option, aka badges. There is more to balancing then can be fixed via badges, and badges aren't precise enough in their changes to really be viable.

 

[Jugoken]

Well, it's been shown that they are listening to players and the game isn't exactly very unbalanced currently. The latter point shows that they aren't exactly incompetent this go-around. I'm willing to put my trust into them and see where it goes in a couple of years over an unreliable balancing option, aka badges. There is more to balancing then can be fixed via badges, and badges aren't precise enough in their changes to really be viable.

If smooth lander didnt mess with the stats would you be okay with it as a side option?

 

[Pyr]

If smooth lander didnt mess with the stats would you be okay with it as a side option?

I'm okay with it being a side option now. Everything tested and explored, of course. I also recognize the issues it has and could present to the community as a whole (aka every smash player going to a tournament out there, from small time locals to majors). A fun side thing like Brawl - is? Definitely. Tournament standard? No.

 

[Jugoken]

I'm okay with it being a side option now. Everything tested and explored, of course. I also recognize the issues it has and could present to the community as a whole (aka every smash player going to a tournament out there, from small time locals to majors). A fun side thing like Brawl - is? Definitely. Tournament standard? No.

would this luigi video change your mind about adding heavy to the mix? lol you like luigi right? right?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEM9SHi1Xe8

 

[Pyr]

would this luigi video change your mind about adding heavy to the mix? lol you like luigi right? right?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEM9SHi1Xe8

Heavy Lander changes things more then Smooth Lander does. If you really want it, keep it out of the standard. It makes the game more unbalanced then if it wasn't present at all.

Edit: And, to clarify, I have had the chance to test this quite a bit. It's fun, ya, but in a different way then Vanilla.

 

[Jugoken]

Heavy Lander changes things more then Smooth Lander does. If you really want it, keep it out of the standard. It makes the game more unbalanced then if it wasn't present at all.

Edit: And, to clarify, I have had the chance to test this quite a bit. It's fun, ya, but in a different way then Vanilla.

how does it make it more unbalanced if EVERY character is affected by the heavy gravity option?? what characters do better under stronger gravity than others?

 

[Muro]

I don't get the, "keep it out of the standard". Of course no TO is gonna stop doing what they're doing and just change to SL HG out of the blue. If you think this you are a crazy person. But we do need to see it played in tournament to assess it's pros and cons, and what we can do about them. A side event is then the perfect option. Also right now just go play with your friends, or whoever you can convince to play this with you and enjoy the game. Upload videos to youtube so people can see what the fuss is about. If there is demand TOs will make a couple of side events and from then on the mode will survive or drown on its own merits.

 

[Jugoken]

I don't get the, "keep it out of the standard". Of course no TO is gonna stop doing what they're doing and just change to SL HG out of the blue. If you think this you are a crazy person. But we do need to see it played in tournament to assess it's pros and cons, and what we can do about them. A side event is then the perfect option. Also right now just go play with your friends, or whoever you can convince to play this with you and enjoy the game. Upload videos to youtube so people can see what the fuss is about. If there is demand TOs will make a couple of side events and from then on the mode will survive or drown on its own merits.

i've been watching this guys test runs and matches with SLGH, i dont see anything wrong with this as a side option!! https://www.youtube.com/user/TheRealCartererer

 

[Pyr]

how does it make it more unbalanced if EVERY character is affected by the heavy gravity option?? what characters do better under stronger gravity than others?

Well, for example: Combos change or become impossible, some become inescapable and excessive (uptiltfordays), characters with poor vertical combo potential do even worse, it becomes extremely difficult for characters that kill primarily off the top to do so, makes characters who kill of the side do so much more efficiently, requires custom moves to allow some characters to recover at all (and makes it impossible for duck hunt to recover vertically, even with customs), and makes ledge-guarding either irrelevant because they couldn't recover anyway, or impossible because the auto-snap, gravity-unaffected recoveries still are at full strength.

To name a few.

I don't get the, "keep it out of the standard". Of course no TO is gonna stop doing what they're doing and just change to SL HG out of the blue. If you think this you are a crazy person. But we do need to see it played in tournament to assess it's pros and cons, and what we can do about them. A side event is then the perfect option. Also right now just go play with your friends, or whoever you can convince to play this with you and enjoy the game. Upload videos to youtube so people can see what the fuss is about. If there is demand TOs will make a couple of side events and from then on the mode will survive or drown on its own merits.

i've been watching this guys test runs and matches with SLGH, i dont see anything wrong with this as a side option!! https://www.youtube.com/user/TheRealCartererer

Again, side events are A-OK. Do a tournament for it and test it. Hell, give me parameters and I'll host one. Maybe it'll become it's own thing like P:M was. I think we do need to be realistic and not consider it a full on "taking this to Evo!" sort of deal, which I do see pushed from time to time, though a lot of people in this thread are past that from the looks of it.

 

[Pyr]

Accidental double. 600 gold earned.

 

[Jugoken]

Well, for example: Combos change or become impossible, some become inescapable and excessive (uptiltfordays), characters with poor vertical combo potential do even worse, it becomes extremely difficult for characters that kill primarily off the top to do so, makes characters who kill of the side do so much more efficiently, requires custom moves to allow some characters to recover at all (and makes it impossible for duck hunt to recover vertically, even with customs), and makes ledge-guarding either irrelevant because they couldn't recover anyway, or impossible because the auto-snap, gravity-unaffected recoveries still are at full strength.

To name a few.

B.S, You havent even tested this, your just spouting hypothetically. i've yet to see this be a problem in competitive SLGH matches, nobodies been uptilted to DEATH either.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

B.S, You havent even tested this, your just spouting hypothetically. i've yet to see this be a problem in competitive SLGH matches, nobodies been uptilted to DEATH either.

Heavy Lander changes things more then Smooth Lander does. If you really want it, keep it out of the standard. It makes the game more unbalanced then if it wasn't present at all.

Edit: And, to clarify, I have had the chance to test this quite a bit. It's fun, ya, but in a different way then Vanilla.

 

[SmashGamer112]

The Luigi video is pretty hype. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEM9SHi1Xe8 (It's been posted above)

I think there is no point in throwing away this idea, I think it's great and a side tournament would be perfect to test it. Though I haven't unlocked it due to the difficulty in unlocking it, it seems good and it hasn't really done anything to make a character "Metaknight Tier".

I say go ahead and try it out in a side tournament. Lets hope for some positive results!

 

[smashbroskilla]

Not that much of a fan because RNG based stat bonuses/minuses that will be different depending on setup. Leading to obviously a different feel for each setup for your character since even small stat boosts have a large effect on the game.

Make smooth landing equipment +0 stats.

(While you're at it, make dash dancing and wavedashing equipment with +0 stats lol. And then increase hitstun/make it so you can't act out of tumble.)

I honestly don't see why this isn't a feature of the base game though. Why is it on some RNG based equipment =/.

Nintendo is well aware of what thousands of players want. Why they can't make an option to turn on or off mechanics is beyond me. That way TO's can make up their own rules on what they want and let the players decide if they would attend a tournament with wavedashing turned on or off. In fact, Nintendo can have back the 100 different sound options they gave me that I'll never use in favor for this.

 

[LimitCrown]

Nintendo is well aware of what thousands of players want. Why they can't make an option to turn on or off mechanics is beyond me. That way TO's can make up their own rules on what they want and let the players decide if they would attend a tournament with wavedashing turned on or off. In fact, Nintendo can have back the 100 different sound options they gave me that I'll never use in favor for this.

It would change how the mechanics of the game work very drastically. The only way that wavedashing would exist again is if the air dodge worked like it did in Melee. The air dodge in Melee is not that good for dodging in comparison to Super Smash Bros. 4's air dodge. Also, making the timing for dash dancing more lenient would probably make the timing for pivot grabs and side attacks different.

 

[StriCNYN3]

Hella late with this whole smooth lander stuff but I did some practicing with the SL and HG as well with Fox. I'd def be down for a little side tourney with these settings. Here are the matches:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UPt2St9BTM&feature=youtu.be

 

[Muro]

So refreshing to see a variety of moves being used instead of just dash attack and grab. Thanks for the vid man.

 

[Nobie]

Here's something I don't quite understand about the whole SL HG thing.

People talk about how this opens up the game to be better because it allows more attack options and more elaborate follow-ups. Follow-ups I'll give you, but it seems that what "more attack options out of neutral" tends to amount to is just characters throwing out tons of fairs without reprisal. What's the difference between this and tricking the enemy to shield through empty jumping or other similar tactics? Just the fact that it involves throwing out moves?

 

[1MachGO]

Here's something I don't quite understand about the whole SL HG thing.

People talk about how this opens up the game to be better because it allows more attack options and more elaborate follow-ups. Follow-ups I'll give you, but it seems that what "more attack options out of neutral" tends to amount to is just characters throwing out tons of fairs without reprisal. What's the difference between this and tricking the enemy to shield through empty jumping or other similar tactics? Just the fact that it involves throwing out moves?

You've more or less illustrated how feigning aerials is more useful than actually using them in vanilla. With SL HG, the options can coexist. Hence, more depth.

EDIT: and describing it as "throwing out tons of fairs without reprisal" is a silly oversimplification. Please tell me your view of Melee/PM/64 or games with safer aerials isn't this naive.

 

[Nobie]

You've more or less illustrated how feigning aerials is more useful than actually using them in vanilla. With SL HG, the options can coexist. Hence, more depth.

EDIT: and describing it as "throwing out tons of fairs without reprisal" is a silly oversimplification. Please tell me your view of Melee/PM/64 or games with safer aerials isn't this naive.

I'll give you that I'm oversimplifying, but it has less to do with me believing that Melee (or whatever) is about a bunch of characters running up to each other and fairing all day (I don't believe that) and more to do with the SL HG videos I've seen. Short hop fairs become an option indeed, but based on how people are playing in those videos they appear to be the most-used and most dominant option for approaching the opponent. Like one thing that Smash 4 emphasizes is the importance of walking over running as a skill, but that seems to vanish as soon as safe aerials come into play.

Maybe it's because Smash 4 denies them that opportunity and they need to get it out of their system (or just want video proof that it works), but that's the image I see. Also obviously not every video is like this. Maybe as people get more used to this format it'll give way to people actually using their other options.

 

[Muro]

What you see in these kinds of videos is more of a demonstration. This match, while not proper tournament play shows off more "normal" play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR6lEnXTp8g

 

[LimitCrown]

Due to the increased falling speeds and gravity, it just seems to discourage going offstage.

 

[Muro]

to me it seems like opponents are more often in a position to be edgeguarded. Recoveries have to come in a more horizontal trajectory, or risk falling too low to recover. Being offstage is actually dangerous.

 

[Epok]

What you see in these kinds of videos is more of a demonstration. This match, while not proper tournament play shows off more "normal" play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR6lEnXTp8g

I have been away from the thread for a while and man this is interesting. It's defiantly exciting to watch. I guess my biggest concern is making sure that recoveries don't become too nerfed especially on the gravity sensitive recovery characters. One of the things I noticed is that it doesn't render shields worthless, but is does reward a successful approach a little bit better. I tried it the other day and I personally didn't like the feel too much, but that's me. I'll give it more time this weekend. I would like to see more character variety on player vs player matches.

 

[Rajikaru]

What you see in these kinds of videos is more of a demonstration. This match, while not proper tournament play shows off more "normal" play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR6lEnXTp8g

Ewww. That Fox died at 31% to something that wouldn't have killed him normally. That's not even him making a mistake, it's just unfairness from the physics.

 

[LimitCrown]

Fox's front air attack in particular just seems to be dangerous to use offstage because it lasts a long time and Fox's falling speed is very high due to the Heavy Gravity.

 

[Muro]

Ewww. That Fox died at 31% to something that wouldn't have killed him normally. That's not even him making a mistake, it's just unfairness from the physics.

that fox went offstage, airdodged (a mistake, he was probably trying to shield by the edge), tried to walljump (by now shiek had made it back) and got edgeguarded. I like it.

Notice after making a big mistake, he still had to get hit twice offstage, and if not for shiek's up b windbox, he probably would have made it back.

 

[Rajikaru]

that fox went offstage, airdodged (a mistake, he was probably trying to shield by the edge), tried to walljump (by now shiek had made it back) and got edgeguarded. I like it.

He wouldn't have died if it wasn't for the Heavy Gravity, though, even if the Shiek had still edgeguarded, which is a problem.

That's way too much punishment for a small mistake like accidentally airdodging, which is one of the reasons why I don't like HG/SL.

 

[Muro]

that's your opinion and I respect that. I think it was an appropriate punish.