smooth lander- the one custom equipment that should be legal

[Kofu]

Oh look, it's the vengeful dark god Sakurai narrative again.

inb4 he puts fluoride in our water and gives us all cancer.

He already did the first, and all this time spent online is exposing us to radiation that will undoubtedly give us cancer.

HIS PLAN WORKED.

EDIT: sorry I replied to a month-old post, I'm terrible.

Also, uh, on-topic, I don't think Smooth Lander is really necessary. The air-to-ground transition for some characters sucks but that's just something they have to deal with.

 

[KiteSC]

Oh look, it's the vengeful dark god Sakurai narrative again.

inb4 he puts fluoride in our water and gives us all cancer.

Maybe every copy of smash was actually made from materials exposed to radiation from the two nukes

 

[SAHunterMech]

I'm honestly surprised that no one tried to offset the reduced jumping height in Heavy Gravity. All you have to do is up the speed stat to about +20, and everyone's back to normal, save for MegaMan, Duck Hunt Dog, and Sonic's Up-B moves. MegaMan can use beat, Duck Hunt Dog can use Super Duck jump, but I haven't figured out a solution for Sonic yet.

In any case, upping the speed stat increases jump height, as well as affecting movement speed. I can safely say that with the universal equipment set that I have applied to every character (+10Attack/+3Defense/+21Speed), the combo game has definitely opened up for all characters. I personally think it's more fun and intense, and more challenging on the competitive level. Do I think it's perfect? By no means. I just want people to try it. To work with it. Right now, I think SL/HG is a first good effort towards a different kind of smash 4, and maybe, with a little ingenuity, we can figure out a way to smooth out the wrinkles.

Honestly, if we want the metagame to develop, if we want to move things forward, we need to at the very least, use everything that we've been given; be more open. There is no harm in experimentation with equipment, and the amount of salt with regards to it being used in competitive play is downright appalling.

I don't know the future. Maybe this could become the competitive standard, or maybe we just need to turn to hacking the game, if hacking becomes a thing for Smash 4. I'll be the first to admit that this is a different enough experience that we may need to have both regular smash 4 and SLHG smash 4. I also know I have some ideas that can't be achieved with equipment alone (Like combining all the custom moves into one enhanced moveset for each character), so maybe that's the direction this needs to go. In any case, I think we have two options here. We can fight amongst ourselves, or we can experiment.

 

[Mario1080p]

There is no harm in experimentation with equipment.

I've come up with a set that can be all obtained in challenges & there is no need to use Heavy Gravity for this, meaning this can be used online with friends using the same setup.

(and set the launch rate to 0.9x, & 3 Stock)

Again, still need actual players to help experiment with me as I've been spending weeks taking on CPUs.

 

[LimitCrown]

I doubt that the speed equipment would help the recovery moves that are hindered by the heavy gravity setting.

 

[SAHunterMech]

I doubt that the speed equipment would help the recovery moves that are hindered by the heavy gravity setting.

It doesn't, but there are solutions to all but one of those characters' recoveries in my post. I'm working on trying to get sonic's functioning properly.

 

[SpandexBullets]

I do admire that you lot are trying really hard to make this work, as it seems the majority of the competitive community has simply agreed that since one character has an enviable followup, the game is "slow and lifeless". Pretty much the initial reaction to Mario Kart 8, if I remember correctly. Also that Equipment and custom moves should be ignored as "it takes too long for TO's to do that stuff" and "you obviously mean +199 speed, so no". I've found that mii's have been banned on occasion simply because TO's don't know the match up.

But, overly convenient as it might be, I don't think that heavy gravity will work in the long run as an element for a fast paced game-formula. It will kill certain recoveries, and even if you give characters improved jumps by speed boosts or effects, you can already see cracks in heavy gravity/S landings effects; Ganon/Falcon dair infinite was found pretty quickly. Also, it initiates fast-fall the second you start falling, which is not a very good thing for characters like Falcon, Ganon, Shulk etc.
However, I'm not saying that this is useless, or that it should be abandoned - but to me it's looking to be more limiting than liberating.

I've said this in a few other threads (hell, it's why I signed up), that there's an equipment effect called 'Anchor jump', which kills your falling speed by about x1.4. I have compared this to falling speed in melee and 64 by using the maximum height Fox can achieve by double jump + Fire Fox, then recording their falling speed. You can find an identical set of data for all characters on antd.org, although its only Melee data so far as I know. To conclude, I found that multiplying Fox's falling speed by 1.4 still didn't bring it close to Melee, but that it probably wouldn't send him slamming down the second he falls.

While 64's falling speed didn't really help, I found an odd effect that imitates the game's slow, wavering fall animations in 'Thistle Jump' (x0.6 falling speed), which might be something to note. You can find all of their falling speeds on Youtube from an account called 'William5000000'.

That said, my ideal formula includes (but not limited to): A balancing selection of Smooth Landing*, Dodgy Dodger* and Anchor Jump.**

*Tested, worked fine.
**Untested, still grinding for it.

 

[Muro]

Ganon/Falcon dair infinite was found pretty quickly.

do tell.

Also, it initiates fast-fall the second you start falling

no, it doesnt. There's still 2 speeds at which you can fall.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Can't even post video links, of which I actually can't find any, but when I was playing as Ganon on heavy he could keep using d-air without lag or invincibility to get in the way. Try it yourself if you're interested.

As for the fast falling, that's the conclusion I came to. After hearing about HG/SL, I started investigating it as soon as I could - but I found that same spark you see when you fast fall appeared every time I fell. As well as shortening jump height, I was pretty sure it was making me fast-fall regardless of input, but by all means prove me wrong - I want to see HG work as much as anyone else here.

 

[SAHunterMech]

I do think that openness is the key here, and that does mean that nothing should be set in stone. I'm going to try working without heavy gravity, as it may not be as essential as I once thought; there indeed may be other ways to get the effect. My first idea is to try my equipment without heavy gravity, straight up, see what happens.

I personally haven't noticed the auto-fast falling, but I'm guessing that's because I've only done HG/SL with +20 speed. I have noticed it's really easy to chain dairs as Ganon/Falcon, but as soon as teching comes into play, you gotta be like, BizarroFlame, in order to keep the chain going.

It's also interesting to see that we could make the game work more like melee OR 64, heh. But honestly, my goal is to just spice things up; I'm really, really trying my best to not be biased towards replicating those games. On that note, I'm not totally sure about dodgy dodger. If everyone can move faster, thanks to +20 speed from equipment, isn't that already a bit of a nerf to rolls? I don't think they're one of the things the Speed stat speeds up...

 

[Muro]

Can't even post video links, of which I actually can't find any, but when I was playing as Ganon on heavy he could keep using d-air without lag or invincibility to get in the way. Try it yourself if you're interested.

As for the fast falling, that's the conclusion I came to. After hearing about HG/SL, I started investigating it as soon as I could - but I found that same spark you see when you fast fall appeared every time I fell. As well as shortening jump height, I was pretty sure it was making me fast-fall regardless of input, but by all means prove me wrong - I want to see HG work as much as anyone else here.

You do know about teching right?

The other part is straight up false. It's very noticeable when you fast fall, there's definitely different speeds. The only thing that is true is the shortening of the jump. But you can get a build with -4a/-14d/19s to make up for it (although it doesn't make that big a difference).

 

[SpandexBullets]

Thanks, you're right - but I kept getting that spark at the start of the fall and I associated it with FF immediately.

If any of you have 'Anchor jump', please post footage of it.
It looks like it would grant every positive element heavy gravity gives, but remove the problem of shortened recoveries and retaining jump height without speeding up.

 

[SpandexBullets]

I am mostly hoping for a solely equipment-based formula though.
3DS doesn't have heavy gravity.

 

[SpandexBullets]

I've come up with a set that can be all obtained in challenges & there is no need to use Heavy Gravity for this, meaning this can be used online with friends using the same setup.

(and set the launch rate to 0.9x, & 3 Stock)

Again, still need actual players to help experiment with me as I've been spending weeks taking on CPUs.

Ok, obviously others might ignore this because it's not trying to point this proposed set of equipment in the fast-paced path, but you're doing the right thing here.
I think that equipment can achieve SEVERAL interesting gametypes.
Keep swapping.

That said, I've started looking at metal physics, and I think that 'Anchor jump' simply implements metal falling physics.
I've recorded characters falling, and I'm pretty sure that by the proposed x1.4 AJ gives achieves something very similar to metal falling speed.
I'll keep this thread active if I find the actual equipment.

 

[Balgorxz]

this is my utopia btw->
I think the best way to use equipments if we let people find good builds with legal equipments (ban all the stupid equipments) and give people some freedom.
for example jiggly with some extra aerial speed and smooth lander gets rest setups and feels much better and its stats were barely changed.
and we should use a range of stats to be allowed (+-15 for example), since equipments can be transferred multiple times the build can actually be copied by everyone.
there's a guy who recorded smooth lander and heavy gravity builds but that only is favorable to some character then let the other have the build they want too as long as we stick to some ruleset it should be no problems.

 

[SAHunterMech]

On the one hand, using different equipments on different characters to balance them better seems accessible and easy, but on the other hand, I think hacking will give us a much more precise way to do so.

Still, I'd be open for different builds being legal for a character. I would just want to impose a rule that you can only use one build per set, or maybe even per tourney, because I'm not really a fan of switching customs based on matchups. I'd want it to be used more as a player identity thing.

 

[Balgorxz]

On the one hand, using different equipments on different characters to balance them better seems accessible and easy, but on the other hand, I think hacking will give us a much more precise way to do so.

Still, I'd be open for different builds being legal for a character. I would just want to impose a rule that you can only use one build per set, or maybe even per tourney, because I'm not really a fan of switching customs based on matchups. I'd want it to be used more as a player identity thing.

I've seen people discuss this a lot and totally agree with you, for example in the future when you enter a tournament you know the player X mains a certain character build that everyone knows and he should have his main and secondary decided before the match so people don't go to customize in the middle of the battle.

 

[SAHunterMech]

Exactly. THAT'S where the potential is for time loss. But just making one set quickly? I don't see the problem.

Still, as much as I love custom special moves, I'd honestly want to consolidate them into one 'idealized' moveset per character via hacking. You know, like Ganon's Wizkick would hit like the default, but it would move like dropkick. Or, Fox's blaster is chargeable ala Eruption, and each charge level would be one of 3 blasters he has. Basically, little bonuses for everyone here and there. Having been on the Brawl Minus backroom, I can tell you that going over the top destabilizes gameplay and balance, but improving moves in moderation could make things more interesting as well.

In any case, hacking probably won't be for some time, so for now, it's time to figure out equipment. I'll continue experimenting.

 

[Balgorxz]

Exactly. THAT'S where the potential is for time loss. But just making one set quickly? I don't see the problem.

Still, as much as I love custom special moves, I'd honestly want to consolidate them into one 'idealized' moveset per character via hacking. You know, like Ganon's Wizkick would hit like the default, but it would move like dropkick. Or, Fox's blaster is chargeable ala Eruption, and each charge level would be one of 3 blasters he has. Basically, little bonuses for everyone here and there. Having been on the Brawl Minus backroom, I can tell you that going over the top destabilizes gameplay and balance, but improving moves in moderation could make things more interesting as well.

In any case, hacking probably won't be for some time, so for now, it's time to figure out equipment. I'll continue experimenting.

I expect every character to have at least 2 ideal equipment builds without hacking, that can fix all time issues.
ex I main Falco A and Yoshi B

 

[Pyr]

If you guys still want this, for some reason, you shouldn't focus on what can be done with it and, instead, focus on the massive flaws of this idea and fix those first. Else, this will only ever be a local scene thing or a "fun with friends" sort of deal.

 

[SAHunterMech]

You know, I'm not pushing for this to be in competitive smash right this second; I think it's going to take a while to develop. Of course, if you want to point out these massive flaws you speak of, I'm willing to listen.

 

[Pyr]

You know, I'm not pushing for this to be in competitive smash right this second; I think it's going to take a while to develop. Of course, if you want to point out these massive flaws you speak of, I'm willing to listen.

If this isn't for competitive smash, this thread should be moved to the General forum, then.

That said, let's tackle 1 at a time. First, and one of the biggest, is consistency. There is a setup that can be used to get things equal on each system with SL, but, from the looks of it, general equipment is on the table as well. How can you make things equal for anything besides SL for one scene when it's very possible for another scene to be unable to match it? Smash is a game of percents, literally. Those few points might cause a death where one wasn't possible before. Because of how the stats effect a fighter, there won't be edge cases that are negligible.

 

[SAHunterMech]

If this isn't for competitive smash, this thread should be moved to the General forum, then.

It is and it isn't. I WANT it to be for competitive, but by no means do I think that there is currently a system that is competitive viable.

As for consistency, I think it's just going to have to come down to save hacking. It was done for Brawl, and if we can get one 100% save for Wii U that anybody can get their hands on, everyone will get the same equipment. We can even make the preset customs on that save. It's either that, or we hack the game itself, and make the needed equipment that way.

But for the sake of testing, I don't think it's necessary for absolute identical stats between multiple people. As long as they're close, we'll be able to find out what we need to know. Right now, I'm using the Smooth Lander Brawn Badge from A7, and two generic Super Protection/Agility badges; I'm assuming that it would be fairly simple for someone else to get something close to the stats I have. I definitely think that this will be easier as hacking develops, but for right now, it's not impossible.

 

[Muro]

That said, let's tackle 1 at a time. First, and one of the biggest, is consistency. There is a setup that can be used to get things equal on each system with SL, but, from the looks of it, general equipment is on the table as well.

Same can be said for custom moves. Do you also think it is a big problem there?

How can you make things equal for anything besides SL for one scene when it's very possible for another scene to be unable to match it? Smash is a game of percents, literally. Those few points might cause a death where one wasn't possible before. Because of how the stats effect a fighter, there won't be edge cases that are negligible.

This isn't a problem if you stick to challenge rewards, which all have the same stats, in all wii Us.

 

[SAHunterMech]

Challenge rewards are just a really limited pool. I definitely need to experiment with stuff outside of that set of equipment. But who knows, maybe there'll be a working combination within rewards. Still, I'd like to hope hacking would open things up here, I really would.

 

[Muro]

Challenge rewards are just a really limited pool. I definitely need to experiment with stuff outside of that set of equipment. But who knows, maybe there'll be a working combination within rewards. Still, I'd like to hope hacking would open things up here, I really would.

yeah they're limited, but the fact that you can get them all with the same stats is a key element. Plus, there's already a possible set with all the differences < 10, and negligible side effects. If you don't want to play in heavy gravity, that's all you really need. This is assuming you're only looking to get the smooth lander effect. For other stuff yeah, you'll need other equipment.

 

[SAHunterMech]

well, that's the thing. I don't really know what I'm looking for at this point. I'm just trying to spice things up. To find whatever interesting combinations there may be.

I think the rewards equipment is a guaranteed method for consistency, but it's only going to be needed if hacking never becomes a thing for Smash 4. If we can hack the game, open it up, we can get exactly what we need from equipment.

 

[Pyr]

It is and it isn't. I WANT it to be for competitive, but by no means do I think that there is currently a system that is competitive viable.

As for consistency, I think it's just going to have to come down to save hacking. It was done for Brawl, and if we can get one 100% save for Wii U that anybody can get their hands on, everyone will get the same equipment. We can even make the preset customs on that save. It's either that, or we hack the game itself, and make the needed equipment that way.

But for the sake of testing, I don't think it's necessary for absolute identical stats between multiple people. As long as they're close, we'll be able to find out what we need to know. Right now, I'm using the Smooth Lander Brawn Badge from A7, and two generic Super Protection/Agility badges; I'm assuming that it would be fairly simple for someone else to get something close to the stats I have. I definitely think that this will be easier as hacking develops, but for right now, it's not impossible.

Save hacking can work, ya. If we can push through something like the Brawl mods. At that point, though, I'd think we'd just edit the figher's stats, so what's the point of equipment?

Same can be said for custom moves. Do you also think it is a big problem there?



This isn't a problem if you stick to challenge rewards, which all have the same stats, in all wii Us.

Custom moves are not nearly a problem. After you unlock them all, making them match another scene is as simple as the customs in MVC in practice. With equipment, pure RNG determines stats.

Smooth-lander isn't a problem consistency-wise, no. This thread did kinda become the equipment thread as of late.

 

[Muro]

well, that's the thing. I don't really know what I'm looking for at this point. I'm just trying to spice things up. To find whatever interesting combinations there may be.

I think the rewards equipment is a guaranteed method for consistency, but it's only going to be needed if hacking never becomes a thing for Smash 4. If we can hack the game, open it up, we can get exactly what we need from equipment.

Alright. You may want to look into amiibo spoofing/ amiibo farming. That's a way to brute force it.

With equipment, pure RNG determines stats.

Not if you get it from the challenge rewards, which is a smaller pool of equipment.

 

[SAHunterMech]

At that point, though, I'd think we'd just edit the figher's stats, so what's the point of equipment?

Well, right now I think equipment is just an opportunity to experiment, and that the inevitable outcome is that when hacking arrives, the desired changes are implemented directly to characters/game physics. It's a bit of a long shot, but it's possible some sort of equipment combination could create new techniques or something too. My main point is that maybe we can make the game a bit more exciting/rewarding than it is now with equipment, and that would translate into a physics change via hacking down the road.

Still, the idea of people being able to have different loadouts for characters could be interesting. I'd personally want all the special moves to be the same (Again, I'd want idealized combinations of the three options), but I'd be curious to see different equipment loadouts to change stats in a reasonable way for tourneys. Maybe they'd be standardized, maybe they'd be character specific.

 

[Pyr]

Not if you get it from the challenge rewards, which is a smaller pool of equipment.

That's the reason smooth lander is efficient overall. But that is very limiting, then, if we just use it. From the sounds of it, equip supporters are looking to do more with it then SL.

Well, right now I think equipment is just an opportunity to experiment, and that the inevitable outcome is that when hacking arrives, the desired changes are implemented directly to characters/game physics. It's a bit of a long shot, but it's possible some sort of equipment combination could create new techniques or something too. My main point is that maybe we can make the game a bit more exciting/rewarding than it is now with equipment, and that would translate into a physics change via hacking down the road.

Still, the idea of people being able to have different loadouts for characters could be interesting. I'd personally want all the special moves to be the same (Again, I'd want idealized combinations of the three options), but I'd be curious to see different equipment loadouts to change stats in a reasonable way for tourneys. Maybe they'd be standardized, maybe they'd be character specific.

I understand your point. It's reasonable to make a loadout for anyone who wants one time-wise, but we'd still need some sort of set standard somewhere. Through hacking, we can get rid of RNG, but that seems a way off. I'd like to see this, but I'd also like to see it past local events. We don't need a standard, but we need a sort of consistency so that Nevada A and Washington player C can come and play with your crew in an equipment match and get the stats/effects that they're used to.

That's all assuming that the game needs to be changed balance/physics wise competitively. I don't think it needs it, but that's not what this thread is about.

 

[SAHunterMech]

I understand your point. It's reasonable to make a loadout for anyone who wants one time-wise, but we'd still need some sort of set standard somewhere. Through hacking, we can get rid of RNG, but that seems a way off. I'd like to see this, but I'd also like to see it past local events. We don't need a standard, but we need a sort of consistency so that Nevada A and Washington player C can come and play with your crew in an equipment match and get the stats/effects that they're used to.

I totally advocate standardized equipment sets for competitive play. I just gotta... find some interesting, non-broken ones first.

That's all assuming that the game needs to be changed balance/physics wise competitively. I don't think it needs it, but that's not what this thread is about.

I don't really think the game NEEDS it either, it plays alright, but I personally want gameplay to distance itself more from brawl, as I feel that's a bit of a toxic environment. Personally, I think combos are just deeply rooted in the core gameplay of smash, not just melee, and every time I play Smash 4, I really feel like combos get dropped all the time; like they should have kept going. I feel like there's a potential here with Smooth lander/+20 Speed, and I really enjoyed playing with it ten times over regular Smash. Seeing all these combos open up with such a simple change makes me wonder if this is the way the game was going to be earlier in development. I feel like there's more of a reward for making an approach, and less of a crushing opportunity to get punished. I just want to... enhance the game. I want to try and create an equipment set that makes these combos happen, but doesn't alienate players entirely. Right now, SL/HG kind of does that.

Again, maybe more people will want to play this way, or maybe we'll have to make a separate mod. I'm not sure. At the very least, I really want people to stop shutting out the idea of using equipment in competitive matches. A lot of this thread is discussion against experimentation, against equipment; it feels needlessly closed-minded.

 

[Pyr]

I totally advocate standardized equipment sets for competitive play. I just gotta... find some interesting, non-broken ones first.



I don't really think the game NEEDS it either, it plays alright, but I personally want gameplay to distance itself more from brawl, as I feel that's a bit of a toxic environment. Personally, I think combos are just deeply rooted in the core gameplay of smash, not just melee, and every time I play Smash 4, I really feel like combos get dropped all the time; like they should have kept going. I feel like there's a potential here with Smooth lander/+20 Speed, and I really enjoyed playing with it ten times over regular Smash. Seeing all these combos open up with such a simple change makes me wonder if this is the way the game was going to be earlier in development. I feel like there's more of a reward for making an approach, and less of a crushing opportunity to get punished. I just want to... enhance the game. I want to try and create an equipment set that makes these combos happen, but doesn't alienate players entirely. Right now, SL/HG kind of does that.

Again, maybe more people will want to play this way, or maybe we'll have to make a separate mod. I'm not sure. At the very least, I really want people to stop shutting out the idea of using equipment in competitive matches. A lot of this thread is discussion against experimentation, against equipment; it feels needlessly closed-minded.

Well, there are balance issues to consider when altering a game in a way SL/HG does. That's my major concer. Overall, this smash is better balanced then Melee/Brawl. The tops will appear in a year, but I got a feeling it'll be more then 5 or so characters. But still, I think SL/HG is competitively unviable due to balance concerns and Nintendo balance concerns, as Nintendo will do some balancing here and there, and it won't be for SL.

Even with that said, I think SL/HG w/ the default equips should be the way to go to start experimenting. Create a scene for it. Hold small side tournies. Get a bigger base and expand from there. Because I would LOVE to be able to play Megaman with it and get a tourny placement. As it stands, though, there just isn't enough interest for me to put time into it. There are a lot of issues that still need to be addressed as well.

 

[SAHunterMech]

Well, I mean, I think Nintendo is done patching the game for good (unless Sakurai is trolling us again and has a Mega-Patch to coincide with the release of Mewtwo), so that's probably a non-issue.

Anyways, yes, SL/HG does have some issues, like MegaMan/DHD/Sonic recoveries, which is why I'm trying SL with +20 speed in regular gravity. I think speed will be more of a factor for making combos happen more often, rather than gravity. When I get some more equipment that has trade-off effects, I'll mess around with that too. All I know is, the combos that I'm getting with my current build are AMAZING. I love that feeling.

 

[Pyr]

Well, with Mewtwo's release being soonish, I think they'll make the update then. I hope it's a once a year sort of thing, though. Let's a metagame develop a bit while fixing major balance issues that can come up when a meta develops.

 

[Muro]

By the way, you can recover as mega man in heavy gravity still, you have to fast fall into the dog a second time. This also restores your second jump, so in theory megaman has infinite recovery with heavy gravity. Another solution is using a custom.

 

[SpandexBullets]

this is my utopia btw->
I think the best way to use equipments if we let people find good builds with legal equipments (ban all the stupid equipments) and give people some freedom.
for example jiggly with some extra aerial speed and smooth lander gets rest setups and feels much better and its stats were barely changed.
and we should use a range of stats to be allowed (+-15 for example), since equipments can be transferred multiple times the build can actually be copied by everyone.
there's a guy who recorded smooth lander and heavy gravity builds but that only is favorable to some character then let the other have the build they want too as long as we stick to some ruleset it should be no problems.

Well, I thought about that as a possibility - where Dodgy Dodger and Smooth Landing are fixed, but a third equipment effect could be used per the players request.
As long as you balance it and the equipment doesn't cause horrors to be unleashed - it'd work!

 

[b2jammer]

This is just wishful thinking here, but this would be made somewhat easier if Nintendo implemented a custom equipment shop, where you can configure a piece of equipment (bonus effects and buffs/debuffs within certain thresholds), then buy it for a certain amount of gold. Would make standardization a lot easier, and it would fit in with being able to sell equipment.

 

[SpandexBullets]

This is just wishful thinking here, but this would be made somewhat easier if Nintendo implemented a custom equipment shop, where you can configure a piece of equipment (bonus effects and buffs/debuffs within certain thresholds), then buy it for a certain amount of gold. Would make standardization a lot easier, and it would fit in with being able to sell equipment.

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNEVER GONNA HAPPEN
ever


I'm sorry
RGN for us

 

[b2jammer]

I know, but I'm starting a new thread on it anyway, just for lols.