smooth lander- the one custom equipment that should be legal

[SpandexBullets]

I know, but I'm starting a new thread on it anyway, just for lols.

ehhhhh not sure it'll amount to much, but do as you wish.

you could try and gauge the stat maximum and minimum of your equipment - that'd be something.

 

[SAHunterMech]

Okay, so I've come up with something here. Basically, it feels really, really close to heavy gravity. I used the smooth lander brawn badge from A7 and two generic badges to get +10/+8/+20, and then I turned down the knockback scaling to 0.8. I think it's damned close, as I'm still getting the same combos, but now we don't have to worry about Recovery/Fastfalling issues. If anyone wants to try this build (Use a Hammer on A7, and Super Defense/Agility badges for the rest, doesn't have to be exact), feedback would be appreciated.

 

[LimitCrown]

Okay, so I've come up with something here. Basically, it feels really, really close to heavy gravity. I used the smooth lander brawn badge from A7 and two generic badges to get +10/+8/+20, and then I turned down the knockback scaling to 0.8. I think it's damned close, as I'm still getting the same combos, but now we don't have to worry about Recovery/Fastfalling issues. If anyone wants to try this build (Use a Hammer on A7, and Super Defense/Agility badges for the rest, doesn't have to be exact), feedback would be appreciated.

However, the changed launch rate would affect horizontal knockback as well as vertical knockback, too, unlike Heavy Smash which mainly affected how far upwards characters would travel when launched in that direction.

 

[b2jammer]

ehhhhh not sure it'll amount to much, but do as you wish.

you could try and gauge the stat maximum and minimum of your equipment - that'd be something.

I've done something like that. You choose your equipment stats and bonus effects within certain limits, and the game decides a price.
http://smashboards.com/threads/idea-equipment-shop-would-it-help.390330/

 

[SAHunterMech]

However, the changed launch rate would affect horizontal knockback as well as vertical knockback, too, unlike Heavy Smash which mainly affected how far upwards characters would travel when launched in that direction.

Well, to be fair, in heavy smash, horizontal knockback is more or less buffed, seeing as opponents tend to go lower in height when they're launched forwards.

However, the reduced knockback is something of an issue, so I'm trying to offset it by increasing damage. Right now, I'm testing a +20/0/+20 build with 0.8x knockback, and it seems to be going alright. Characters may survive longer, but they rack up damage way quicker, and with combos, I think the potential for gameplay to stagnate at higher percents is negated.

 

[LimitCrown]

I have tried to figure out how much the attack values of equipment affect the damage values of the attacks of any character who has that equipment. The formula that the game uses appears to be a piecewise function and I think I've figured out the portion of the formula that deals with positive attack values for the equipment. However, I don't have enough equipment with high penalties to figure out what the formula is for negative attack values on equipment.

If I'm correct, having a combination of equipment that gives you +20 attack causes the character's attacks to deal 1.16x as much damage.

 

[SAHunterMech]

That sounds about right, although I think the game may round up to the nearest whole number. In any case, I think I'm going to settle with the build I have now; it's changed a bit. Right now I'm at +20/-22/+25 at 0.7x knockback. It's pure craziness.

 

[W.A.C.]

I'm not 100% against the idea of smooth lander becoming a standard at tournaments, but I'm extremely against heavy gravity. I understand some people find it appealing to make the game faster paced in terms of having stocks last about as long as they do in Melee and Project M, but the solution to the whole "games taking too long" was resolved with two stocks. With rage mode and two stocks, it makes every lost stock a big deal. Where as with Melee and Project M, players are just dying constantly because the recoveries aren't very good and the ledge mechanics are unforgiving. I'm also not too concerned about the game lacking combo options from characters being too light when so many characters have great combos options already at their dispersal.

As for the smooth lander equipment, it's a bit of a mess of a situation because it affects more than landing lag. Though I find the arguments about the effort of unlocking the equipment kind of petty. It was a ***** to unlock all the characters in Melee and unlocking all the characters in Brawl required playing through the single player story mode which was pretty lengthy for a multiplayer emphasized fighting game. The smooth lander equipment also changes the game's balance because characters were balanced with landing lag in mind and the lag caused this game to have a bigger emphasis on reads and mind games compared to past Smash Bros. games, which I find appealing and so do some other players. I do feel certain characters have too much lag for certain moves, but I've never viewed the lag as a major problem. Regardless, I'll take the game with or without landing lag and still have a very good time. Just keep in mind that if this equipment became a tournament standard for Smash 4, it'll force a lot of players to change much their tactics and possibly hurt (and/or help) the viability of certain characters. Also would significantly hurt For Glory mode's viability as a mode to train on, which would severely hurt the game's online play.

For those who want Smooth Lander Heavy Gravity to become a thing, I recommend figuring out the best configuration to where there's a near universal agreement that a specific configuration is best for that setup, then find a way to get side events to take place. I'm extremely against Heavy Gravity becoming the standard, but side events don't bother me. The game gives people many options in how it can be played and this simply adds yet another option. Now if only there was a way to have the momentum from running carry over to jumps. That's about the only mechanic from Melee I miss with Smash 4 and I doubt there's any way to change that. Also, good luck having stuff like this being possible with heavy gravity on without the percentages being significantly higher

 

[SpandexBullets]

I'm not 100% against the idea of smooth lander becoming a standard at tournaments, but I'm extremely against heavy gravity. I understand some people find it appealing to make the game faster paced in terms of having stocks last about as long as they do in Melee and Project M, but the solution to the whole "games taking too long" was resolved with two stocks. With rage mode and two stocks, it makes every lost stock a big deal. Where as with Melee and Project M, players are just dying constantly because the recoveries aren't very good and the ledge mechanics are unforgiving. I'm also not too concerned about the game lacking combo options from characters being too light when so many characters have great combos options already at their dispersal.

As for the smooth lander equipment, it's a bit of a mess of a situation because it affects more than landing lag. Though I find the arguments about the effort of unlocking the equipment kind of petty. It was a ***** to unlock all the characters in Melee and unlocking all the characters in Brawl required playing through the single player story mode which was pretty lengthy for a multiplayer emphasized fighting game. The smooth lander equipment also changes the game's balance because characters were balanced with landing lag in mind and the lag caused this game to have a bigger emphasis on reads and mind games compared to past Smash Bros. games, which I find appealing and so do some other players. I do feel certain characters have too much lag for certain moves, but I've never viewed the lag as a major problem. Regardless, I'll take the game with or without landing lag and still have a very good time. Just keep in mind that if this equipment became a tournament standard for Smash 4, it'll force a lot of players to change much their tactics and possibly hurt (and/or help) the viability of certain characters. Also would significantly hurt For Glory mode's viability as a mode to train on, which would severely hurt the game's online play.

For those who want Smooth Lander Heavy Gravity to become a thing, I recommend figuring out the best configuration to where there's a near universal agreement that a specific configuration is best for that setup, then find a way to get side events to take place. I'm extremely against Heavy Gravity becoming the standard, but side events don't bother me. The game gives people many options in how it can be played and this simply adds yet another option. Now if only there was a way to have the momentum from running carry over to jumps. That's about the only mechanic from Melee I miss with Smash 4 and I doubt there's any way to change that. Also, good luck having stuff like this being possible with heavy gravity on without the percentages being significantly higher

I don't think it should end at smooth lander - give disadvantaged/nerfed characters better factors in their metagame; give Jiggly & Ganon better air speed with Pro Glider, make Falco and Yoshi fall faster with Anchor Jump, give Pikachu hopper so it can reach the ground at a faster rate and followup immediately after an aerial.
Give em all Dodgy Dodger - cut their invincible dodge frames by 1/3, making air dodging slightly more difficult.

That's what I'm aiming to achieve.

 

[SAHunterMech]

I'm not 100% against the idea of smooth lander becoming a standard at tournaments, but I'm extremely against heavy gravity.

I agree here. HG creates a lot of issues that I don't think are solvable. The recoveries of Sonic, DHD, and MegaMan are hampered greatly, and vertical KO moves are nerfed greatly in comparison to horizontal ones, which are more or less buffed due to trajectories being lowered overall. I think the SL:HG build I tried was a first good effort, it showed potential, but I knew I had to try and work with default Smash, which I have done.

but the solution to the whole "games taking too long" was resolved with two stocks. With rage mode and two stocks, it makes every lost stock a big deal.

I personally think this is a very poor solution. The game is already really defensive, with approaches just being strongly outclassed by punishes, to the point where it's just about landing hits where you can, trading, getting one hit in and running away, etc. Having less stocks induces even less of an incentive to try and do anything cool.

In my opinion, it's a toxic environment because it rails against both almost every other fighting game, as well as n64/melee; it does not encourage you to approach or make combos. It's not as bad as brawl was, but it's still too much like brawl if you ask me. It's the main reason why I started experimenting with equipment.

I'm also not too concerned about the game lacking combo options from characters being too light when so many characters have great combos options already at their dispersal.

The fact that many hits or combos are now purely read-based is a frustrating ordeal for me. I really wish the game would be more generous with combo opportunities, as they feel scant at best.

As for the smooth lander equipment, it's a bit of a mess of a situation because it affects more than landing lag.

I think it's very true that smooth lander alone without the proper equipment tweaks is a bad idea. Without a speed boost and adjustments to damage/KB, only the characters who were better at comboing to begin with have a benefit. However, I've been experimenting for about the past month, and I feel really confident in my current setup.

Damage is increased slightly, knockback is lower, and speed has been enhanced. Interestingly, I think this may balance the game better, as the low-tier heavyweights now live longer and pack more of a punch in both damage and combo-ability.

At first I was more motivated to just get that melee feel, which SL/HG does so handily, but I realized over time that I had to attempt to stay true to the identity of Smash 4 as a more read-based game. Right now, I feel like I've more or less achieved my goal of having 'Smash 4 but with more rewards for landing a hit, more exciting combos, etc", and I recommend that everyone try out this build, see what you think. As long as you can get the numbers relatively close (which helps because I'm using the smooth lander equip from the challenge board), you should be fine.

My current equipment build is +16A/+1D/+20S at 0.7x Knockback.

I don't think it should end at smooth lander - give disadvantaged/nerfed characters better factors in their metagame; give Jiggly & Ganon better air speed with Pro Glider, make Falco and Yoshi fall faster with Anchor Jump, give Pikachu hopper so it can reach the ground at a faster rate and followup immediately after an aerial.

I think that character specific equipment could be a thing, but there some factors that don't bode very well for it:

1. It's a huge undertaking. It has taken me enough time just to get one universal set of equipment that works for everyone, and trying to get similar numbers with different equips would be a pain to grind and set up. Specifically two necessary equips (SL and Pro Glider/Anchor Jump) leaves only one slot for tweaking, so I hate to say it, but it probably wouldn't work out unless you grinded a batch of like, 10,000 equipments or something.

2. If hacking opens up for Smash 4, balacing by means of in-game equipment would essentially be the long way around, sadly. Granted, with the current P:M situation, it may not, so I don't know.

 

[Muro]

megaman's recovery is fine in HG. In fact it's too good and needs to have an anti stalling rule. Sonic and DHD are 2 characters out of a 50+ roster, everyone else is fine. HG does nerf upwards killing moves, but I don't see it as a bad thing, it's just different. Buffing horizontal moves is a big plus, because those pratically have no use now. With HG they set up edgeguards. On that note, you can actually edgeguard in HG, because the recovering character actually has to spend some recovery options to get back to the stage, instead of just floating back without even spending a jump.

 

[SAHunterMech]

megaman's recovery is fine in HG. In fact it's too good and needs to have an anti stalling rule. Sonic and DHD are 2 characters out of a 50+ roster, everyone else is fine. HG does nerf upwards killing moves, but I don't see it as a bad thing, it's just different. Buffing horizontal moves is a big plus, because those pratically have no use now. With HG they set up edgeguards. On that note, you can actually edgeguard in HG, because the recovering character actually has to spend some recovery options to get back to the stage, instead of just floating back without even spending a jump.

I am by no means trying to say that SL:HG is bad. It's what inspired me to experiment in the first place, because it brought a lot of fun back to the game for me. All I'm saying is, it may be too big of a climate change for us to try and fix the issues that exist, or to try and reel in the competitive scene with. I think my build is a happy medium, and again, I really really want people to just try it out, love it or hate it. Call me crazy, call me ambitious, but I could see tourneys with these settings, even if it's just a side event.

 

[SpandexBullets]

I agree here. HG creates a lot of issues that I don't think are solvable. The recoveries of Sonic, DHD, and MegaMan are hampered greatly, and vertical KO moves are nerfed greatly in comparison to horizontal ones, which are more or less buffed due to trajectories being lowered overall. I think the SL:HG build I tried was a first good effort, it showed potential, but I knew I had to try and work with default Smash, which I have done.



I personally think this is a very poor solution. The game is already really defensive, with approaches just being strongly outclassed by punishes, to the point where it's just about landing hits where you can, trading, getting one hit in and running away, etc. Having less stocks induces even less of an incentive to try and do anything cool.

In my opinion, it's a toxic environment because it rails against both almost every other fighting game, as well as n64/melee; it does not encourage you to approach or make combos. It's not as bad as brawl was, but it's still too much like brawl if you ask me. It's the main reason why I started experimenting with equipment.



The fact that many hits or combos are now purely read-based is a frustrating ordeal for me. I really wish the game would be more generous with combo opportunities, as they feel scant at best.



I think it's very true that smooth lander alone without the proper equipment tweaks is a bad idea. Without a speed boost and adjustments to damage/KB, only the characters who were better at comboing to begin with have a benefit. However, I've been experimenting for about the past month, and I feel really confident in my current setup.

Damage is increased slightly, knockback is lower, and speed has been enhanced. Interestingly, I think this may balance the game better, as the low-tier heavyweights now live longer and pack more of a punch in both damage and combo-ability.

At first I was more motivated to just get that melee feel, which SL/HG does so handily, but I realized over time that I had to attempt to stay true to the identity of Smash 4 as a more read-based game. Right now, I feel like I've more or less achieved my goal of having 'Smash 4 but with more rewards for landing a hit, more exciting combos, etc", and I recommend that everyone try out this build, see what you think. As long as you can get the numbers relatively close (which helps because I'm using the smooth lander equip from the challenge board), you should be fine.

My current equipment build is +16A/+1D/+20S at 0.7x Knockback.


I think that character specific equipment could be a thing, but there some factors that don't bode very well for it:

1. It's a huge undertaking. It has taken me enough time just to get one universal set of equipment that works for everyone, and trying to get similar numbers with different equips would be a pain to grind and set up. Specifically two necessary equips (SL and Pro Glider/Anchor Jump) leaves only one slot for tweaking, so I hate to say it, but it probably wouldn't work out unless you grinded a batch of like, 10,000 equipments or something.

2. If hacking opens up for Smash 4, balacing by means of in-game equipment would essentially be the long way around, sadly. Granted, with the current P:M situation, it may not, so I don't know.

Thanks, I het what you meant, but I was suggesting smooth lander and Dodgy Dodger be the fixed parts, and the variable should change between certain characters (only JP and Ganon need P. glider, Fox, Falco, Yoshi and whoever could use faster falling speed gets AJ, etc.)
I know it's a huge undertaking, so that's why I'm trying to do it ASAP, as hacking will most likely be a thing if this picks up steam. I want to make that steam, because I do think that you could make that ideal smash - and other competitive game types based on equipment.
Hell, I was thinking about making clones by switching specials and altering stats.

It has too much potential to be unanimously binned as it "takes too much time lol now i'll go practice diddy follow-ups for 26 hours". For local games, including 3DS, it only has to be obtajned ONCE.

 

[SpandexBullets]

megaman's recovery is fine in HG. In fact it's too good and needs to have an anti stalling rule. Sonic and DHD are 2 characters out of a 50+ roster, everyone else is fine. HG does nerf upwards killing moves, but I don't see it as a bad thing, it's just different. Buffing horizontal moves is a big plus, because those pratically have no use now. With HG they set up edgeguards. On that note, you can actually edgeguard in HG, because the recovering character actually has to spend some recovery options to get back to the stage, instead of just floating back without even spending a jump.

Doesn't work on 3DS tho. Try as you might, there may be something here, but I don't think it's something that'll please those hungry for a speedy, combo-centric duel.

 

[Khawner]

0.8 would probably benefit in that i can be used online,whereas heavy gravity can't.

 

[Muro]

Doesn't work on 3DS tho. Try as you might, there may be something here, but I don't think it's something that'll please those hungry for a speedy, combo-centric duel.

If SLHG doesn't please them, nothing in sm4sh will.

0.8 would probably benefit in that i can be used online,whereas heavy gravity can't.

that heavy gravity can't be used online really is a bummer.

 

[SAHunterMech]

It has too much potential to be unanimously binned as it "takes too much time lol now i'll go practice diddy follow-ups for 26 hours". For local games, including 3DS, it only has to be obtajned ONCE.

Hey man, if you want to do this, go right ahead. I didn't mean to make it sound like I thought it was a bad idea. I just think it sucks that it will take so much time to grind and get the parts, but it could be interesting to see what kind of results you get.

 

[micstar615]

I was getting really bored with the Sm4sh mechanics, I began playing PM again because I felt that this game was a bit too defensive for my taste. However after reading through this thread I'm gaining renewed interest in Sm4sh. I totally dismissed equipment for the most part but they make the game a lot more intense and aggressive if you get the right equipment setups. Finding out which setups work best for each character is going to be a challenge, but this opens up a lot of possibilities imo. I just wish they were implemented in the game better :/

 

[SAHunterMech]

I just wish they were implemented in the game better :/

To be fair, I got my setup relatively easily. All you have to do is get a golden hammer and use it on challenge block A7 (Unlock all custom moves), and from there do smash tour/classic/trophy rush/whatever until you get Super Protection/Super Agility badges that get stats within the same ballpark.

But yeah, getting more equipment for character specific setups wouldn't be nearly as straightforward, mostly due to the fact that there aren't any challenge blocks that drop Anchor Jump or things like that. What we really need is an 100% powersave. Just getting 100% alone nets you thousands of equipments in the process.

 

[Vincent21]

I am unfortunately going to be "that guy" and mention full disclosure that I am not going to invest the time into reading 17 prior pages of material. I read the first page, and have gotten here.

To put it simply, I've experimented with Smooth Lander on almost every character and I saw the discussion minor testing of smooth lander on the Shofu stream and I'm going to go on record as saying I honestly believe including smooth lander into any form of competitive play would literally be the most harmful thing to character balance I can imagine.

L-Canceling was removed on purpose because the characters in this game were designed around the concept of landing lag being a punishable thing. Having it is very important. While not every character would see insane improvements, when you can true combo Ganon dair into usmash you're talking about an insane level of combo fluidity and extra kill confirms being added to the game. This would create literal oceans of unbalance between the peak tier of the game and those beneath it. It would be an absolute disaster to accept smooth lander into the competitive diet.

This is literally the custom effect I held up as example at the few regional events I was apart of just to reinforce the understanding that equipment is by no means okay. And no TO or player has messed around with this in a lab and come back with any other conclusion that agreement. Smooth Lander is literal poison.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Hey man, if you want to do this, go right ahead. I didn't mean to make it sound like I thought it was a bad idea. I just think it sucks that it will take so much time to grind and get the parts, but it could be interesting to see what kind of results you get.

Oh no - I've made a thread about this before, and the only two responses were basically this.

 

[Muro]

I was getting really bored with the Sm4sh mechanics, I began playing PM again because I felt that this game was a bit too defensive for my taste. However after reading through this thread I'm gaining renewed interest in Sm4sh. I totally dismissed equipment for the most part but they make the game a lot more intense and aggressive if you get the right equipment setups. Finding out which setups work best for each character is going to be a challenge, but this opens up a lot of possibilities imo. I just wish they were implemented in the game better :/

Hey dude check out this thread. It may interest you.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I am unfortunately going to be "that guy" and mention full disclosure that I am not going to invest the time into reading 17 prior pages of material. I read the first page, and have gotten here.

To put it simply, I've experimented with Smooth Lander on almost every character and I saw the discussion minor testing of smooth lander on the Shofu stream and I'm going to go on record as saying I honestly believe including smooth lander into any form of competitive play would literally be the most harmful thing to character balance I can imagine.

L-Canceling was removed on purpose because the characters in this game were designed around the concept of landing lag being a punishable thing. Having it is very important. While not every character would see insane improvements, when you can true combo Ganon dair into usmash you're talking about an insane level of combo fluidity and extra kill confirms being added to the game. This would create literal oceans of unbalance between the peak tier of the game and those beneath it. It would be an absolute disaster to accept smooth lander into the competitive diet.

This is literally the custom effect I held up as example at the few regional events I was apart of just to reinforce the understanding that equipment is by no means okay. And no TO or player has messed around with this in a lab and come back with any other conclusion that agreement. Smooth Lander is literal poison.

Ganon actually can true combo Dair into Usmash in vanilla.
http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-cancel-dair-true-combos-into-kill-setups.392679/#post-18664922
The main problem is that certain characters(including Diddy and Sheik, of course) become absurdly safe on shield with Smooth Lander. The only way to deal with said characters is to maneuver around them, which most of the cast lacks the ability to do.
This post explains things much better than I could.

I spent a day playing with smooth lander. Here's some observations:


First, the offensive gains on-hit are very sparse. There are very, very few combos smooth lander allows, since landing aerials so rarely link into other moves at this level of hitstun. They are almost exclusively low-% followups like MM fair-dtilt or Marth fair-ftilt. (Followups which normally frame trap anyway; SL just makes them true combo instead)

If you think the game feels substantially different on-hit, sorry. Placebo is a hell of a drug.


Second, what DOES change dramatically is on-block behavior, though really only for fast characters. Characters with ~10 frame landing lag aerials are now safe on block unspaced. So moves like:

• Diddy bair
• Palutena fair
• Sheik fair/bair
• ZSS bair/uair
• Mario bair/uair
• Falcon bair/uair

...become safe on block. They still give the opponent frame advantage, but it's so low that it's not actionable for almost anyone. (Maybe Mario, Marth, or Bowser can up-b)

This huge gameplay change had two implications:


First totally-safe-aerials was REALLY unenjoyable to play against. I normally don't roll much (rolling is bad and shielding is better), but now shielding is useless the moment these characters jump. So I ended up rolling a lot more. There was a lot more running away in general, since standing your ground against aerials was way less viable.

Second, this only applies to the characters listed. Poor Ganondorf and Charizard; we'd still shield and punish their failed aerials all day long. Sometimes punishments were a little less (most smashes won't work), but that's small consolation when Diddy is doing a tap-dance on your face with a bair that is safe-on-block regardless of spacing.

It's very Melee-like in the sense that the fast top-tiers become broken, and everyone else gets to cry about it.


tl;dr - I still think that everyone's obsession with landing lag is completely misplaced. Reducing landing lag doesn't affect the purported goals--it doesn't add more on-hit options (combos), it doesn't help slow characters, and it forces people to roll more.

 

[SAHunterMech]

L-Canceling was removed on purpose because the characters in this game were designed around the concept of landing lag being a punishable thing.

So.. this must mean that competitive melee and n64 must be the worst thing ever, right?

I am unfortunately going to be "that guy" and mention full disclosure that I am not going to invest the time into reading 17 prior pages of material. I read the first page, and have gotten here.

Then, unfortunately, you missed the part where I acknowledged that smooth lander is bad on its own, but with adjustments to speed and power, it's a different story. I love how people such as yourself will always just toss in the Thinkaman post like it's word of god or something. I read it, I thought about ways to fix the purported issues, most of which I feel are just really strong opinions, nothing more. Everyone else read it, and said, 'welp, case closed. No need for me to think about this or try this.'

To put it simply, I've experimented with Smooth Lander on almost every character and I saw the discussion minor testing of smooth lander on the Shofu stream and I'm going to go on record as saying I honestly believe including smooth lander into any form of competitive play would literally be the most harmful thing to character balance I can imagine.

Here's one question I have for everyone who has said they've tested SL: What were your stats at? What was your knockback at? If it doesn't resemble my numbers, yes, you're probably going to have a bad time. But guess what? I kept screwing around with it until it worked. My equipment skews the balance in favor of heavier characters, none of which are in the top tier or even close, which means that they're being pulled closer to their so-called top tier counterparts.

While not every character would see insane improvements, when you can true combo Ganon dair into usmash you're talking about an insane level of combo fluidity and extra kill confirms being added to the game.

*Sigh*

Combos actually DO open up to EVERYONE in my build. Not only is your example something that is possible in vanilla, but you're trying to say that good things (combos, hit confirms) are bad things, somehow. YES, if only the top tiers could do these things, that would be the case, but again, if you actually tried my numbers, you'd see that it's not just something they can do anymore.

 

[SAHunterMech]

Ganon actually can true combo Dair into Usmash in vanilla.
http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-cancel-dair-true-combos-into-kill-setups.392679/#post-18664922
The main problem is that certain characters(including Diddy and Sheik, of course) become absurdly safe on shield with Smooth Lander. The only way to deal with said characters is to maneuver around them, which most of the cast lacks the ability to do.
This post explains things much better than I could.

I would really take this more seriously if it wasn't just the thinkaman post all over again.

It's not word of god. It's just someone's opinion, and everyone is using it as an excuse not to experiment with equipment.

Or, in some cases, to experiment for 5 minutes and give up. Again, I will re-iterate, YES, if you're only using Smooth lander, it would be bad because there is no speed boost to enable everyone to create combos. And, if you're using the A7 SL, it's probably worse because power would be so high.

 

[micstar615]

@ SAHunterMech nice points, balance isn't an issue for me personally since i don't play competitively, but as a a casual player, I prefer fast paced, aggressive gameplay. Does HGSL mode open up even more combos for the cast? It def feels that way, I was playing as Zelda using SLHG and even she felt a lot smoother, I didn't feel like I was overcommitting by simply approaching.

 

[HeavyLobster]

The thing about heavy gravity is that it still doesn't change the fact that Smooth Lander ruins the usefulness of shields against the better characters in the game. It does speed the game up and allows for more combos, but characters who aren't blessed with the speed to approach effectively or maneuver around those who can don't really have any sort of counterplay left available to them. If you don't really care about that sort of thing this works fine, but the balance on default settings is pretty decent, and it's not going to stay that way with these mechanical changes. You could attempt to remedy this by allowing certain characters extra speed boosts or something, but unless there's a way to hack in whatever custom equipment you want, it's not likely to amount to much beyond house rules. (Not to mention the arguments about who is allowed what boosts, which would go on forever) This is still probably the best route one could go as far as making a PM-type successor for those who are so inclined, as the type of Brawl hacking we saw is unlikely to proliferate for a number of reasons.

 

[Muro]

The thing about heavy gravity is that it still doesn't change the fact that Smooth Lander ruins the usefulness of shields against the better characters in the game.

No it doesn't. Shields are really strong in this game.

 

[SAHunterMech]

but characters who aren't blessed with the speed to approach effectively or maneuver around those who can don't really have any sort of counterplay left available to them.

I'll say this again: I boosted speed with my equipment set. Everyone can combo. Please, just try my settings.

 

[LimitCrown]

Do we actually know exactly how strong shields shields are?

 

[SAHunterMech]

Do we actually know exactly how strong shields shields are?

To a definitive degree? I'd say no.

 

[Vincent21]

So.. this must mean that competitive melee and n64 must be the worst thing ever, right?

Pardon me, I didn't realize 64/Melee weren't games built and trying to do totally different things than Smash 4 is, and that these properties always totally 100% transitive!... Wait.

Then, unfortunately, you missed the part where I acknowledged that smooth lander is bad on its own, but with adjustments to speed and power, it's a different story. I love how people such as yourself will always just toss in the Thinkaman post like it's word of god or something. I read it, I thought about ways to fix the purported issues, most of which I feel are just really strong opinions, nothing more. Everyone else read it, and said, 'welp, case closed. No need for me to think about this or try this.'

Somehow you managed to both miscontrue my position AND misattribute it to another person.

Maybe you didn't realize, but this isn't your thread, and the TITLE is
"smooth lander- the one custom equipment that should be legal"

Notice how this implies using Smooth Lander... by itself? Maybe with the only unspoken word being to 0/0/0 stats? It's actually totally reasonable for me to therefore respond to the thread talking specifically about just this equipment being a thing by giving my impressions testing with... uh... just it. Don't go around throwing labels on people or preconceptions over their opinions, especially when early dismissal is exactly what you're complaining about how hypocritical is that

Here's one question I have for everyone who has said they've tested SL: What were your stats at? What was your knockback at? If it doesn't resemble my numbers, yes, you're probably going to have a bad time. But guess what? I kept screwing around with it until it worked. My equipment skews the balance in favor of heavier characters, none of which are in the top tier or even close, which means that they're being pulled closer to their so-called top tier counterparts.

What are we talking about, SLHG? Or is this it's own thing? If you're that confident in it and it's not SLHG give it it's own thread and we can discuss things on a way more effective level with your numbers, because then your numbers will be the topic. If it HAS it's own thread, color me interested, a link would be appreciated, or at least a link to your original post where you previously linked it? If it is SLHG I have a much more refined opinion about that in the associated thread if you want something to pick on.

Combos actually DO open up to EVERYONE in my build. Not only is your example something that is possible in vanilla, but you're trying to say that good things (combos, hit confirms) are bad things, somehow. YES, if only the top tiers could do these things, that would be the case, but again, if you actually tried my numbers, you'd see that it's not just something they can do anymore.

Well let me set something strait. If you have a specific build, then you have a specific build. If it's fundamentally different enough it play, it is it's own game. This is a good thing, too! It provides multiple experiences out of the same set of tools! However introduction into competitive legality (what THIS TOPIC discusses) would mean replacing the game we have with this new and different game.

I, and many other people, have no desire to replace/alter Smash 4 and are getting a little weary between Apex Melee chants, Dabuz being treated like Satan for exemplifying an effective defensive playstyle (which much of the game is about), and constantly community bashing and infighting about things we can do to fix or change Smash 4.

I'd love SLHG as a side event, but can we please stop treating Smash 4 like a dying product in need of some kind of overhaul? It's fine. It's a fundamentally different game than 64 and Melee, and we'll honestly probably never see games like those again. It's a good thing we have those games to begin with!

(Disclaimer: I am not directly accusing you of desire or advocating the replacement and bashing of unaltered Smash 4. I am outlining reasons that people may feel the need to resist your argument other than "because Thinkaman said so." There is a longstanding habit of people who play Smash 4 feeling like their tourney scene is constantly under attack, and whether that is true or not when it comes to mixing around their tournament scene they have a lot of fighting to do to get what they're looking for.)

As a fan of unaltered Smash 4, I disagree with customs being introduced into main event Smash 4. Since the only logical way to include them is creating a uniform set of custom adjustments, and this not only introduces TO hosting issues (customs have randomly generated stats unless gotten off the challenge board, so you're limited to things like SLHG) but results in you ultimately deciding on something like SLHG, in other words playing a different game entirely.

I want to play Smash 4 at my Smash 4 events. Crazy, I know.

 

[micstar615]

I think Smash 4 will be smash 4 and no one has any right to say "you can't play this game because it's defensive, etc." (and no one in this thread has), it'll appeal to it's crowd and we shouldn't have a civil war like we did with melee vs brawl. That said, I also think SLHG is something a lot of people are overlooking, it's a fantastic way to enjoy the game and should be pushed further imo, I think the play style is extremely fun, fluid and spectator friendly and has the potential to develop it's own meta.

 

[SAHunterMech]

Pardon me, I didn't realize 64/Melee weren't games built and trying to do totally different things than Smash 4 is, and that these properties always totally 100% transitive!... Wait.

You can't be serious. Smash is smash. How does L-Canceling not create the same issues that smooth lander creates? Arguably, it's worse, because everyone can remove all landing lag on all moves... except it's not, because it helps improve gameplay, and all that's wrong with smooth lander is that gameplay needs to be changed oh-so-slightly to make it function in an acceptable way.

Somehow you managed to both miscontrue my position AND misattribute it to another person.

Maybe you didn't realize, but this isn't your thread, and the TITLE is
"smooth lander- the one custom equipment that should be legal"

Notice how this implies using Smooth Lander... by itself? Maybe with the only unspoken word being to 0/0/0 stats? It's actually totally reasonable for me to therefore respond to the thread talking specifically about just this equipment being a thing by giving my impressions testing with... uh... just it. Don't go around throwing labels on people or preconceptions over their opinions, especially when early dismissal is exactly what you're complaining about how hypocritical is that

I love how what this boils down to is, "I didn't read everything". Seriously, you're a little late to the party. Everyone was long done discussing about how 0/0/0 SL doesn't work. Furthermore, excuse me for not wanting to try and approach everyone directly about my attempts to make the equipment work, instead of making my own little thread and not getting any attention whatsoever.

And you think I'm labelling you? You're the one who said that Smooth Lander is poison. It reeks of closed-mindedness. Even if you meant, "Smooth Lander at 0/0/0 is poison", it doesn't change the fact that that's as far as you went to test it out. Seriously, there are way too many variables in the mix here for one singular piece of equipment to ruin the game in absolute manner.

What are we talking about, SLHG? Or is this it's own thing?

Is your attention span that bad? You don't even need to read this entire thread, you just needed to look at this one page for more than 2 seconds before realizing, yes, it's neither 0/0/0 SL or SLHG.

However introduction into competitive legality (what THIS TOPIC discusses) would mean replacing the game we have with this new and different game.

Oh noes, the content of a forum thread deviated slightly from its title! And after several months; Shocking!

I, and many other people, have no desire to replace/alter Smash 4 and are getting a little weary between Apex Melee chants, Dabuz being treated like Satan for exemplifying an effective defensive playstyle (which much of the game is about), and constantly community bashing and infighting about things we can do to fix or change Smash 4.

I'd love SLHG as a side event, but can we please stop treating Smash 4 like a dying product in need of some kind of overhaul? It's fine. It's a fundamentally different game than 64 and Melee, and we'll honestly probably never see games like those again. It's a good thing we have those games to begin with!

(Disclaimer: I am not directly accusing you of desire or advocating the replacement and bashing of unaltered Smash 4. I am outlining reasons that people may feel the need to resist your argument other than "because Thinkaman said so." There is a longstanding habit of people who play Smash 4 feeling like their tourney scene is constantly under attack, and whether that is true or not when it comes to mixing around their tournament scene they have a lot of fighting to do to get what they're looking for.)

You can't bring up the point of people trying to replace smash 4, saying that it's stale (and sound an AWFUL lot like you're accusing me of doing just that) and then at the last minute include a disclaimer saying you don't think that's what I intended, and expect all of that to have any meaning. If you like vanilla smash 4, great! We should be on the same side! I don't think anyone should be treating the Smash 4 community like it has been treated in the past, but I don't really see why this is relevant to bring up here and now.

My intent isn't to replace smash 4 gameplay, or fix it. My intent is to try and get side events going with my equips, and open people's minds about how shutting down equipment or custom moves is closed-minded at best, and that all I'm doing is using what the creators of Smash 4 have given me. I want a different experience from other smash 4 players, specifically those who like vanilla, and I think we should embrace the freedom of being able to create different games here, instead of just closing it all off, pretending it doesn't exist, and leaving it at that.

I am very, very sick and tired of hearing about how all of these people just threw in the towel with smooth lander without any experimentation. If you are angry about people condescending smash 4 because it's 'stale', and needs 'fixing', then I'm just as mad, because using customs isn't about that. It's about playing the game to its FULLEST. Using THE THINGS THAT THE CREATORS MADE. You know, like L-Canceling and Wavedashing. Instead, smash 4 is being put into a box, and the EVO announcement was the first step towards undoing that.

As a fan of unaltered Smash 4, I disagree with customs being introduced into main event Smash 4. Since the only logical way to include them is creating a uniform set of custom adjustments, and this not only introduces TO hosting issues (customs have randomly generated stats unless gotten off the challenge board, so you're limited to things like SLHG) but results in you ultimately deciding on something like SLHG, in other words playing a different game entirely.

I want to play Smash 4 at my Smash 4 events. Crazy, I know.

A different game? Last time I checked, this is still Smash 4. This is what Smash 4 IS. A game with much more customization than ever before, and all I want is for people to be open minded about it. If, down the line, we can have side tourneys alongside the main game, then that's mission accomplished for me. So again, I will re-iterate, my goal isn't to fix smash 4. My goal is to let it be what it really is.

 

[Vincent21]

Fair enough. Equipment would make for fantastic side events. I agree with that, and if that's what you want, I'm very into the idea of Smash 4 being "the game with like 20 games in it." You get all the personal attacks out of your system yet? You feel better?

You can't be serious. Smash is smash. How does L-Canceling not create the same issues that smooth lander creates? Arguably, it's worse, because everyone can remove all landing lag on all moves... except it's not, because it helps improve gameplay, and all that's wrong with smooth lander is that gameplay needs to be changed oh-so-slightly to make it function in an acceptable way.

You're missing me. I'm saying 64 is not Melee, which is not Brawl, which is not 4. The games are oceans apart. A mechanic that is perfectly kosher in one iteration, like say L-Canceling, will not necessary be a positive addition to one of the other titles. That was the only direction I was going with this statement. Smash is Smash, but the games are all their own animals. Properties such as specific AT will not all be 100% transitive what with the vastly different gravity, character selection, and mechanics between titles.

Expanding on that, I don't think reducing landing lag is a positive change in the base game of Smash 4 (however you appear to have created a different mix that you are confident assuages various issues connected) because it was very intentionally included in order to make landing reasonably punishable and to make aerial spacing more of a commitment. Even if you fix the issues associated with that, by that point you end up with a different game worthy of a side event. With that as my basis, I wouldn't want main event equipment, merely side events for things of that nature (I'm particularly excited to have SLHG as a potential side event if logistics can be streamlined and would even be willing to bring that up with my local TOs).

 

[SAHunterMech]

You get all the personal attacks out of your system yet? You feel better?

You know, I was going to shake your hand and say, "maybe we can agree on something here", but take your condescension and shove it.

MOVING ON!

I would like my build to become a side event, but I wouldn't say it's a 'totally different game'. I don't think it would be alienating for Smash 4 players, and painting it as such is also condescending. You can write paragraphs and paragraphs about how you don't want the main event changed. That doesn't phase me. It doesn't mean anything to me. I want regular smash 4 to continue onwards, because the choice of having equipment is absolutely necessary (albeit I don't think custom special moves are in the same boat). ONLY having my equipment would be just as bad as having no equipment whatsoever.

 

[HeavyLobster]

After some testing I have to concede that shields are not quite as bad as I thought, thanks mainly to powershielding. It does still have problems, and it probably isn't as balanced as vanilla Smash 4, especially with customs. But after trying it more, it doesn't strike me as quite a dystopian Diddy/Sheik only nightmare, and does seem to have merit. At any rate, there is one feature that Nintendo ought to patch into Smash 4, the ability to share your custom builds with other players via Miiverse. This would not only help immensely with developing a standardized Smooth Lander meta, but would also immediately solve all of the logistical problems with implementing custom moves into standard play, thus helping the entire Smash 4 community.(It would also be nice if the number of builds you could have saved at once could be expanded) If the entire Smash community petitioned Nintendo to implement a custom build sharing system, we might actually get them to listen. (It worked for Gamecube Controllers)

 

[SAHunterMech]

After some testing I have to concede that shields are not quite as bad as I thought, thanks mainly to powershielding. It does still have problems, and it probably isn't as balanced as vanilla Smash 4, especially with customs. But after trying it more, it doesn't strike me as quite a dystopian Diddy/Sheik only nightmare, and does seem to have merit. At any rate, there is one feature that Nintendo ought to patch into Smash 4, the ability to share your custom builds with other players via Miiverse. This would not only help immensely with developing a standardized Smooth Lander meta, but would also immediately solve all of the logistical problems with implementing custom moves into standard play, thus helping the entire Smash 4 community.(It would also be nice if the number of builds you could have saved at once could be expanded) If the entire Smash community petitioned Nintendo to implement a custom build sharing system, we might actually get them to listen. (It worked for Gamecube Controllers)

You have a point there. They did make it excruciating to get any sort of customs whatsoever.

 

[Vincent21]

@ SAHunterMech

I'd still rather agree on promoting good side events, but I'm not going to simply ignore the abrasive nature in which you're swinging around your points. You come in here, accuse people of sheep-following Thinkaman, take your swipes at me where you get them because I got in late on 17 pages, and just continue to make things unnecessarily combative.

How am I expected to react to that?

I want to actually discuss the pros and cons of what you propose without it having to be like this.

 

[SAHunterMech]

@ SAHunterMech

I'd still rather agree on promoting good side events, but I'm not going to simply ignore the abrasive nature in which you're swinging around your points. You come in here, accuse people of sheep-following Thinkaman, take your swipes at me where you get them because I got in late on 17 pages, and just continue to make things unnecessarily combative.

How am I expected to react to that?

I want to actually discuss the pros and cons of what you propose without it having to be like this.

This, from the guy who said THIS?

To put it simply, I've experimented with Smooth Lander on almost every character and I saw the discussion minor testing of smooth lander on the Shofu stream and I'm going to go on record as saying I honestly believe including smooth lander into any form of competitive play would literally be the most harmful thing to character balance I can imagine.

Smooth Lander is literal poison.

I wanted the discussion to be civil too, but you fired some serious shots, sir. If you're jaded to people who say that smash 4 is dull and needs fixing, I'm also jaded to people who shut down customs with statements like those. Can we just move on, and go forwards from here? It seems that maybe we both agree about how custom equipment could be potentially be handled at tourneys, assuming it makes it that far.