smooth lander- the one custom equipment that should be legal

[Vincent21]

But those aren't shots at people. They are at an idea.

That is being civil. Arguing the idea, the point, the numbers, etc. and not swinging at people.

Moving on sounds good. I like that idea. But now I have a question. If we're going to make side events and whole new circuits out of equipment, how do we give good sets a good shot each.

Like I feel things like your numbers set up and SLHG would end up competing for stage slots, you know?

 

[SAHunterMech]

But those aren't shots at people. They are at an idea.

That is being civil. Arguing the idea, the point, the numbers, etc. and not swinging at people.

That's your definition. Maybe if that was said before my posts, it would have been fine. Obviously, quite closed-minded, but fine. Instead, you more or less glanced over my findings, and then proceeded to say that they were ****.

I'm not totally sure. All I know for sure is, after messing with equipment for so long, when you're trying to make one set for everyone, it's really easy to make a turd, and really hard to get something that is legitimately fun. I don't really know how many other functioning builds are out there, or if there are any others, as I've messed with a lot of different numbers/knockback settings.

My goal was to get as close as possible to the SL/HG feel, and objectively, I feel like my build would chosen, simply because it doesn't make characters like Sonic nigh-unusable. Not trying to be a ****, not trying to put myself up on a pedestal, I just know that some sonic main will be pissed because he can't play, you know? And that doesn't make SL:HG bad, it just kind of prevents it from being a tourney thing. But I legitimately feel like I've made something that is so close to SL:HG, that it would make the fans of that happy too.

 

[Muro]

@ SAHunterMech I want to ask you 2 things.

Is It possible to recreating the same feeling you're going for, by using build 3 and then from there adjusting the knockback ratio? If it is, it may be worth to consider it, because at least we have a non random way to get that equipment. Relying on random drops is kind of a deal breaker imo. For example I can't even try your suggestion because I don't have the right equipment, and no reliable way to get it.

How does the edgeguarding work with the build you're proposing? Is it the same as the current sm4sh?

 

[SAHunterMech]

@ SAHunterMech I want to ask you 2 things.

Is It possible to recreating the same feeling you're going for, by using build 3 and then from there adjusting the knockback ratio? If it is, it may be worth to consider it, because at least we have a non random way to get that equipment. Relying on random drops is kind of a deal breaker imo. For example I can't even try your suggestion because I don't have the right equipment, and no reliable way to get it.

Hmm. Maybe I need to look at the challenge board again, see if I can get numbers close to mine. But build 3 is fairly close, so I can give it a try.

How does the edgeguarding work with the build you're proposing? Is it the same as the current sm4sh?

It's similar, but the slight increase to jump height, in tandem with the major increase to combos, makes it more offense-based.

 

[SAHunterMech]

Okay, I've done some quick testing. Build 3 at 0.7x knockback was, unfortunately, just kind of OK.
Don't worry though, because I actually managed to make a build that is very, very similar to mine; it's just a little... beefier, heh.

A7 Smooth Lander/Default Brawn Badge/Default Agility Badge at 0.6x Knockback.

Damage goes up higher (This is off-set by the reduction in knockback), hitstun is EPIC, but the combos are the same.

Go nuts, kids. Let me know if there are any potential issues.

 

[Muro]

I never considered having anything other than brawn/agility/protection build, but I guess I didn't consider messing with the knockback ratio setting either. I'll try this one out tomorrow

 

[SAHunterMech]

Okay, I'm revising the build here. Through sheer luck, I got something way better that's still attainable to everyone.

A7 Smooth Lander/Default Agility Badge at 0.7x Knockback.

The issue of living too long is alleviated more, and combos felt more fluid to me as well. I've already switched over to this build myself; it's my new favorite.

 

[SpandexBullets]

I still need to see anchor jump, if anyone has it.
On video - I can't play at the moment and I want to see just how it works.
Also if a negative version of 'escape artist' pops up we could potentially increase hitstun/DI.

 

[LimitCrown]

Hitstun is directly proportional to knockback, and I don't think that the hitstun multiplier changed from what it was in Melee and Brawl.

 

[SpandexBullets]

I know, but escape artist lessens time being "grabbed,stunned, etc."
I tried it with Falco, though I only noticed small differences in how knockback works with it (I'll post results here).
What I did notice immediately, was that Falco's blaster and reflector did MUCH less stun - like a sheiks chain in previous games.
If a negative version of this exist, i.e. 'Anti-escape artist/clumsy escapist', it could give some interesting results.
I think it affects hitstun/launching too, but I'm not sure. Like I said, I'll put up results here.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Ok, i finally got anchor jump (pal games have different equipment names - "heavy jump")
So, after using it for 2 minutes, I can conclude that it disappoints in the worst possible way, and that the description even lies to you.
It's heavy smash exclusive to one character. That's it. It says it increases your falling speed, but it's a ruse. It drops your jump and double jump height also. So far as I can see, it does absolutely nothing to your falling speed, only it's acceleration, and not by a lot.

I am utterly disappointed by this, and the possibility of equipment granting different gametypes is looking less hopeful.

 

[SAHunterMech]

Ok, i finally got anchor jump (pal games have different equipment names - "heavy jump")
So, after using it for 2 minutes, I can conclude that it disappoints in the worst possible way, and that the description even lies to you.
It's heavy smash exclusive to one character. That's it. It says it increases your falling speed, but it's a ruse. It drops your jump and double jump height also. So far as I can see, it does absolutely nothing to your falling speed, only it's acceleration, and not by a lot.

I am utterly disappointed by this, and the possibility of equipment granting different gametypes is looking less hopeful.

No.. It can't be true. I'm not totally surprised though; there are a lot of odd translation choices in the game.

 

[LimitCrown]

Anchor Jump probably affects the gravity values of the characters if it affects their jump height. It makes sense for that to happen, though, because the name of the effect is "Anchor" Jump.

 

[Muro]

Ok, i finally got anchor jump (pal games have different equipment names - "heavy jump")
So, after using it for 2 minutes, I can conclude that it disappoints in the worst possible way, and that the description even lies to you.
It's heavy smash exclusive to one character. That's it. It says it increases your falling speed, but it's a ruse. It drops your jump and double jump height also. So far as I can see, it does absolutely nothing to your falling speed, only it's acceleration, and not by a lot.

I am utterly disappointed by this, and the possibility of equipment granting different gametypes is looking less hopeful.

What were you hoping to find? If it doesn't increase your falling speed then it's not like heavy smash, but you were disappointed? I thought the whole point was for it to not be like heavy smash?

 

[SAHunterMech]

Anchor Jump probably affects the gravity values of the characters if it affects their jump height.

Yeah, and it probably ONLY affects gravity, not terminal velocity or anything like that. It's weird though, because Heavy Smash obviously changes more than that. Oh well.

What were you hoping to find? If it doesn't increase your falling speed then it's not like heavy smash, but you were disappointed? I thought the whole point was for it to not be like heavy smash?

Well, I was hoping to get the heavy smash feel in regular smash, and even though that's not possible with guaranteed unlocks, I figured I'd see how close I could get.

It's heavy smash exclusive to one character. That's it. It says it increases your falling speed, but it's a ruse.

I'm confused now; it feels like heavy smash? Shouldn't that be a good thing?

 

[SpandexBullets]

Yeah, and it probably ONLY affects gravity, not terminal velocity or anything like that. It's weird though, because Heavy Smash obviously changes more than that. Oh well.



Well, I was hoping to get the heavy smash feel in regular smash, and even though that's not possible with guaranteed unlocks, I figured I'd see how close I could get.



I'm confused now; it feels like heavy smash? Shouldn't that be a good thing?

I was hoping that it would simply increase falling speed, but leave your jump height, so certain character's could feel more complex, like giving Falco, CF, Fox, Lucina and Yoshi their fast-faller status so they could pull out aerials and land very quickly.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Heavy Smash cuts your jump height, increases your fall acceleration, and makes your launch trajectory more horizontal. In that sense, heavy jump is totally redundant, as heavy smash does this already. That said, it could be a translation error, and the PAL versions could be stuck with heavy gravity instead of fall speed (clutching needle-width straws here), as I did talk to someone on SBoards already who gave a totally different impression when using the NTSC version: 'Anchor Jump'.

This is really disappointing, it's such a huge error and it got my hopes so high. I mean, I could make the characters fall faster, but I'd have to use every slot to keep their walk and dash, and air speed neutral.

Well, at least now I can study again.

 

[Muro]

brah, you should try SLHG, the decrease in jump height feels natural, and it increases the other attributes you were going for. After a day or 2 playing, you'll feel at home.

 

[SAHunterMech]

Heavy Smash cuts your jump height, increases your fall acceleration, and makes your launch trajectory more horizontal. In that sense, heavy jump is totally redundant, as heavy smash does this already.

Question: What do Sonic's/MegaMan's/DHD's Up-Bs look like with Anchor Jump on?

I mean, I could make the characters fall faster, but I'd have to use every slot to keep their walk and dash, and air speed neutral.

Well, I mean, increasing the speed stat increases all of those things. Maybe you could find a workaround? If you have an agility badge that boosts jump height, maybe that could 'fix' it, instead of just cancelling out the anchor jump effect.

brah, you should try SLHG, the decrease in jump height feels natural, and it increases the other attributes you were going for. After a day or 2 playing, you'll feel at home.

Also, yes, this mode is the SH*T. Highly recommend.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Question: What do Sonic's/MegaMan's/DHD's Up-Bs look like with Anchor Jump on?

Well, I mean, increasing the speed stat increases all of those things. Maybe you could find a workaround? If you have an agility badge that boosts jump height, maybe that could 'fix' it, instead of just cancelling out the anchor jump effect.

Also, yes, this mode is the SH*T. Highly recommend.

I've tried it, it's pretty good - just the recovery sucks for most or all of the non-walljumping cast, which is what I was looking to remedy - give the properties to characters that benefit most from them.

It does affect their up special, and their recovery sucks the same way. I fed it to my toon link because I wanted to see what would happen, as he has to deal with it to play.

Boosting the speed requires you to neutralise dash, walk, jump, double jump and airspeed. Again, this is just because of an unfortunate mistranslation, but I'll try and upload a video of my findings. I didn't consider the weight added by extra defense, so i'll see how that works out if the weight no is changed.

 

[SAHunterMech]

Hmm, I guess I can stop trying to get Anchor Jump then. Thanks for the info, sorry you had to farm for ages only to be disappointed. Now that I've got working numbers in regular smash, I'm going to start messing around with equipment effects more. Hopefully there's some combination out there that makes things even crazier. I like crazy.

EDIT: You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to get Anchor Jump, and just not apply it to Sonic/DHD. Then they can join in on the fun. If I get a hopper equipment, it could be similar enough.

Whether or not I'll be able to retain my somewhat sensitive stat numbers is a different question though. You know what Nintendo should have done? They should have isolated stats from equipment. They should have said, "here's 100 stat points", and let you invest them however you choose. Then, the 3 slots would be for effects alone. Seriously, a little re-working and it could have become a legit, easy-to-do competitive thing.

but I'll try and upload a video of my findings. I didn't consider the weight added by extra defense, so i'll see how that works out if the weight no is changed.

Can you tell me how you got your Anchor Jump? Right now I'm just farming Smash Tour by leaving it running as I do other things, but I'm not sure it'll even drop at all in this mode. Sounds like certain modes drop specific things to me.

 

[LimitCrown]

The way that equipment works currently is fine, in my opinion. Equipment with positive effects will tend to have a lower ratio of positive to negative stat changes while the equipment with negative effects have a higher ratio. Equipment was also never designed for competitive play.

 

[Muro]

The way that equipment works currently is fine, in my opinion. Equipment with positive effects will tend to have a lower ratio of positive to negative stat changes while the equipment with negative effects have a higher ratio. Equipment was also never designed for competitive play.

Smash in general was never designed for competitive play though.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Equipment is completely random.

You could get it next time you play or not at all. Like I said, I'll post a video with my findings soon as. So far as I know, HJ and SL works best on falco above everyone else. He feels fantastic.

escape artists allows you to DI easier out of electric/shocking attacks. Also, give Pro Glider to Jiggs and Ganon; wall of pain, a familiar ganon.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Smash in general was never designed for competitive play though.

Melee was. Not to the extent which exploits pushed it, but still holding competitive ground.

 

[SAHunterMech]

Well, given the extent to which Nintendo stretched it's arms out to the competitive players this time around, I was hoping it would be more than a superficial effort.

They made basic smash accessible to competive and casual play, but they couldn't do so for any other aspects?

 

[LimitCrown]

Smash in general was never designed for competitive play though.

What I mean is that equipment was meant to be used for fun, similarly to custom moves. The stat increases, decreases, and possible bonus effects are randomized; also, you're rewarded with the ability to get new effects for equipment by beating challenges. While the main part of the game was designed with the possibility of competitive play, equipment doesn't seem to be the same.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Well, given the extent to which Nintendo stretched it's arms out to the competitive players this time around, I was hoping it would be more than a superficial effort.

They made basic smash accessible to competive and casual play, but they couldn't do so for any other aspects?

That's what I was hoping equipment could do. But Smash 4 and brawl were made to look like fighting games. Melee operates like one, but the hitboxes make no sense in cases were the attack lasts for a while and sourspots don't really make sense either.

I do hope someone finds a way to hack equipment or something - the current combo system is so boring, it's just punishes and guaranteed followups, like you're not even playing the way you want to play, just the way that certain character works.

I'm pretty sure that was the aim too; the freeze frames and sparks around launching moves emphasize the importance of that hit and nothing that builds up to it or what follows. Damn, AJ being heavy gravity was such a letdown.

 

[popsofctown]

There's no way that adding in debug-level control over equipment drops and special effects, at least for players who unlocked every single trophy, would harm anyone, it would only provide useful tools for those that want to create different game modes. I prefer defaults but that gives me no reason to bear ill will towards those that don't. It's a shame they didn't provide a means for it. The current system gives that Diablo feel that you could always find an even better item than all items you ever found before, which is cool but not worth it, and not Nintendo, not in Nintendo's niche, "I buy the game, I own it now", with some reasonable unlock process for a single player progression experience, is Nintendo's niche and what they should stick to. I hope they head back to it in the future. They still could possibly patch in a way for players to gain greater control over equipment and I would like to see that.

I even wanted to test something, can't remember what, but it was a training mode sort of combo and I wanted to restrict the CPU's jumping ability or shielding ability or whatnot to see if the combo was true with-respect-to the CPU's other evasive abilities, not that one. Despite having farmed an ungodly amount of equipment, I can't create a stat-zero equipment set easily to test that. I actually might even have that stat-zero equipment loop somewhere in my inventory, but it would take too long to figure out the combination to set it up.

 

[LimitCrown]

If you had full control over the stat changes and bonus effects that equipment can have, then that would make equipment very pointless. It would also be too easy to make an optimal custom build for a character and it could be potentially imbalanced.

 

[SpandexBullets]

If you had full control over the stat changes and bonus effects that equipment can have, then that would make equipment very pointless. It would also be too easy to make an optimal custom build for a character and it could be potentially imbalanced.

Or change characters to create alternate yet balanced versions of the character (fast-falling/floatier, slower/faster, stronger/more tuned/, highjumping etc) That, along with the custom moves, could give amazing possibilities for any character.
I'm getting Heavy Jump again, so I can see how it works alongside heavy, just to make sure there's nothing I overlooked.

 

[Muro]

I do hope someone finds a way to hack equipment or something - the current combo system is so boring, it's just punishes and guaranteed followups, like you're not even playing the way you want to play, just the way that certain character works.

I'm pretty sure that was the aim too; the freeze frames and sparks around launching moves emphasize the importance of that hit and nothing that builds up to it or what follows. Damn, AJ being heavy gravity was such a letdown.

I don't get how you can hold this opinion and then not like heavy gravity. It does everything you wish for. What about it don't you like? Jump height, fall speed or the changes to knockback?

 

[SpandexBullets]

I don't get how you can hold this opinion and then not like heavy gravity. It does everything you wish for. What about it don't you like? Jump height, fall speed or the changes to knockback?

A bit of all. Particularly the jump height, that throws a spanner in every air based finisher. The lack of useful vertical also pushes me away. Fall speed is all I want, that's why this gametype works perfectly for fox, falco and Captain Falcon.

 

[SAHunterMech]

If you had full control over the stat changes and bonus effects that equipment can have, then that would make equipment very pointless. It would also be too easy to make an optimal custom build for a character and it could be potentially imbalanced.

Yes, equipment would become quite pointless, but I would be ecstatic because it would mean no more farming!

What nintendo doesn't seem to realize is that we're already going to be playing their game for hours on end, they don't need to lock everything cool away as some sort of cruel incentive; they adjusted fighter unlocks accordingly, but nothing else.

My ideal experience would be having all fighters, customs, and equipment effects unlocked from the start, with stats being totally adjustable. No one enjoys farming, and having 3/4 of what gives Smash 4 a unique identity barred off and impractical for competitive play is the most frustrating thing.

(As for the notion of imbalance occuring if stats were freely adjustable, well, if this not-real idea was real, the community could easily regulate it.)

But alas, unless a miracle happens, I'll just have to make do. Once I get anchor jump, and turn regular smash into SLHG, my evil plan will be complete! Then I can finally get Sonic into the Heavy Gravity game!

 

[SpandexBullets]

Yes, equipment would become quite pointless, but I would be ecstatic because it would mean no more farming!

What nintendo doesn't seem to realize is that we're already going to be playing their game for hours on end, they don't need to lock everything cool away as some sort of cruel incentive; they adjusted fighter unlocks accordingly, but nothing else.

My ideal experience would be having all fighters, customs, and equipment effects unlocked from the start, with stats being totally adjustable. No one enjoys farming, and having 3/4 of what gives Smash 4 a unique identity barred off and impractical for competitive play is the most frustrating thing.

(As for the notion of imbalance occuring if stats were freely adjustable, well, if this not-real idea was real, the community could easily regulate it.)

But alas, unless a miracle happens, I'll just have to make do. Once I get anchor jump, and turn regular smash into SLHG, my evil plan will be complete! Then I can finally get Sonic into the Heavy Gravity game!

I just hope the next patch gives AJ it's actually written effect instead of implementing heavy smash. That would be the key...

 

[SpandexBullets]

Wait - forget everything I just said.
Heavy Jump only noticeably affects ground jump and falling speed.

I have video evidence!
behold.

And these are the stats I gave him to achieve this (-29 speed as lvl 50 amiibos organically achieve a +2X stat boost on all stats.)
Heavy Jump with Springer equipment can grant characters fast-faller status whilst still retaining their jump and keep their original launch trajectories.

Aren't I so nice?

 

[ZomBiehn]

No. Just... absolutely not. Might as well turn on items as well at that point.

^lol ain't that the truth

 

[SpandexBullets]

^lol ain't that the truth

Customized characters can be shared in a locked format, which isn't bad.

 

[Incomming 336]

Wait, AJ exists? I thought it can't drop like dodgy dodger and the ones where you can't jump as high.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Wait, AJ exists? I thought it can't drop like dodgy dodger and the ones where you can't jump as high.

Hopper
Mid-air hopper
Dodgy Dodger
Anchor Jump

I have em all, just binge crazy orders, it gives you the most stuff, although all equipment is completely random when you receive it - the only guarantee is that high level play (15+ crazy orders, very hard master orders, lvl 9.0 classic etc)
Fighting your amiibo gives you good equipment too, that's how I got AJ.