smooth lander- the one custom equipment that should be legal

[Galespark]

Duck Hunt can't recover at all. Like Sonic and Mega Man can recover a bit, but Duck Hunt just sinks when you use his up special. Also King DeDeDe doesn't recover as high. It likely effects more character as well. but not as extreme.

Just tried and Dedede recovers just fine, Duck Hunt recovery is the other recovery affected (still can recover horizontally) so I suppose it can be fixed by using a custom. Other characters recoveries seems unnaffected.

 

[GameWatching]

Heavy gravity seems to be garbage tho

 

[ミスティック Speed]

I honestly see this as an attempt to change the game's core mechanics to be more like Melee's. We have P:M for that- leave this one, that happens to be perfectly fine as is, alone.

 

[GSM_Dren]

As others have said before, this would be a nightmare for TOs to enforce. Grinding for the smooth landing equip AS WELL as equipment that negates the stats would be too absurd for players to handle.

A side tourney allowing equipment would make this easily fit in, but allowing it into a no equipment tournament would cause hell.

 

[Conda]

Especially since the current way to get customs tournaments running is to use the 3ds to import customs sets. Those custom sets cannot be modified, thus we can't equip them with the Wii U's easier-to-get smooth lander equipment.

 

[RPK]

Atleast getting the smooth lander badge with preset stats in the WiiU version is guaranteed if you unlock all of the custom moves in the game.

 

[NewGuy79]

ok so here's just a suggestion of the top of my head,

could using Smooth lander with raw states, however with decreased launch ratio ( so that the launch rate is the same or similarly to vanilla SSB4) can be viable?

Just finished 2 of my exams and i got one to go so I dont have much time to test myself, but if some one could cheek this out I think it might be beneficial.

 

[Thinkaman]

lol heavy gravity will never happen. Stop.

But heavy gravity allows cool combos, like 13x Mario u-tilt on 0% DDD!

 

[Muro]

you all need to stop being defensive, you can keep playing however you like. This doesn't affect you, so I don't know why people are so invested in taking it down. cheers.

 

[lightdasher]

I'm not sure if this has already been said in this thread, too lazy to read through 489 replies, but what about powersaving equipment to have no stats on and instead just be "smooth landing +0 +0 +0" and then just copy it on Wii Us

You could also throw in others like the one that makes you stop instantly or dodgy dodger or weaker shield regen or w/e

Just my two cents

 

[SmashGamer112]

I'm not sure if this has already been said in this thread, too lazy to read through 489 replies, but what about powersaving equipment to have no stats on and instead just be "smooth landing +0 +0 +0" and then just copy it on Wii Us

You could also throw in others like the one that makes you stop instantly or dodgy dodger or weaker shield regen or w/e

Just my two cents

My friend actually has a powersave. He showed me and apparently it doesn't allow you to actually cheat equipment in, not even thinking about changing their affects. Only Custom Moves, Characters and Stages and some other stuff. Though on the Website you can request codes, idk if they will make it though.

 

[SN Viper]

Super Protection BadgeDefense +23 43 (35) Speed -12 28 (24 - 28)
Super Agility BadgeSpeed +24 43 (24 - 28)Attack -12 28 (28)
The smooth lander brawn badge gives Att + 36 and def -35

With just looking at the potential stats you can get randomly the closest to 0/0/0 you can get is 8/0/0 i have not looked at what other equipment are capable of just these.

 

[SaturnFrost]

Im down for smooth Lander as tourney norm. Im no Meleetist but i do appreciate fast aggressive play over slow and campy.

Unlocked the brawn badge challenge two squares over the all star shulk challenge.Been playing with the 22/-14/7 build suggested in this thread and i think it feels solid. It opens up for some really nice combos,more rewarding aggressive play(less rewards for campy out of shield play),and characters die earlier...All things I hear competitive players say are major issues for them in this game. And its a cake walk to obtain since its set, not RNG.

Are people already so accustomed to their characters this early in the games life that they wouldn't be able adjust to something like this?

 

[lightdasher]

The only problem though is it that it makes some characters worse, like megaman for example

 

[SaturnFrost]

The only problem though is it that it makes some characters worse, like megaman for example

Im not sure what you mean...Mind explaining?

 

[lightdasher]

Im not sure what you mean...Mind explaining?

Well think about it, not many of Megamans aerials have very little landing lag asside from his Dair, Megaman doesn't benefit much from it making characters who already have low landing lag much more harder to combat, same goes for Robin.

Throw Heavy Gravity on and it makes them pretty bad recovery wise, you'd need customs for some characters like Olimar or Duck hunt duo for example

 

[Muro]

it's kinda expected to mess with the balance. It'd be weird if it didn't. what metagame ends up being more unbalanced though remains to be seen. We don't even know how balanced the normal game is. Switching between 2 and 3 stocks also benefits different characters differently.

 

[SaturnFrost]

Well think about it, not many of Megamans aerials have very little landing lag asside from his Dair, Megaman doesn't benefit much from it making characters who already have low landing lag much more harder to combat, same goes for Robin.

Throw Heavy Gravity on and it makes them pretty bad recovery wise, you'd need customs for some characters like Olimar or Duck hunt duo for example

This thread isnt about HG which is why I didn't mention it in my post. Its about SL. Only a few people want SL + HG which I am not one of them. Megaman wouldn't benefit from being able to react out of his aerials faster?

 

[lightdasher]

This thread isnt about HG which is why I didn't mention it in my post. Its about SL. Only a few people want SL + HG which I am not one of them. Megaman wouldn't benefit from being able to react out of his aerials faster?

I only mentioned HG on the second line as a way of saying it'd make it even more bad.

If the already fast characters became faster, it doesn't matter how fast Megaman can act out of his aerials

 

[Muro]

I only mentioned HG on the second line as a way of saying it'd make it even more bad.

If the already fast characters became faster, it doesn't matter how fast Megaman can act out of his aerials

the slower characters also become faster. In fact, they become faster by a bigger amount than fast characters.

 

[LimitCrown]

the slower characters also become faster. In fact, they become faster by a bigger amount than fast characters.

It isn't like the Smooth Lander effect would affect most characters' ability to combo by a notable amount.

 

[Muro]

It isn't like the Smooth Lander effect would affect most characters' ability to combo by a notable amount.

says you. I'd like to see how it turns out.

 

[JipC]

It does seem pretty clear to me right now that Smooth Lander meta won't develop into anything more than house rules for Melee fans, as the meta is too clearly broken for it to develop into something serious. It doesn't really matter if Ganondorf's aerials are now safeish when spaced when you consider that Sheik or someone like that can basically just mash SH aerials and never get punished at all. It's also basically impossible to actually get 0/0/0 stat values without hacking, so we might as well just focus on experimenting with all custom equipment and see where that takes us. Something like spawning with a particular item isn't necessarily broken, and is fundamentally no different than ZSS's armor pieces in Brawl, so it might be beneficial to see how things play out with custom effects we might not see as competitive in the traditional sense.

Is it really Melee fans though? It just seems like Smash 4 fans trying to imitate Melee and thinking they've succesfully done so
Melee fans are still playing Melee, removing landing lag and adding more gravity (that seems like it shafts off-stage play anyway) doesnt make it that much like Melee

 

[SmashGamer112]

Is it really Melee fans though? It just seems like Smash 4 fans trying to imitate Melee and thinking they've succesfully done so
Melee fans are still playing Melee, removing landing lag and adding more gravity (that seems like it shafts off-stage play anyway) doesnt make it that much like Melee

Nobody needs to make this game like melee, It could use a bit more reward for non defensive play though.

It just helps more aggressive play and that's why people want it however it can unbalance the game, especially if you get power,speed or jump boosts.

Just hope that we can get someone to make a cheat code to allow smooth lander to have no upgrades but less to no lag on aerials and then I think more people will be interested in the idea, (also allow it to be cheated into the game in the first place to help out TO's and just normal players)

 

[Loki]

The problem I see around here the most is people really trying to bring the world Melee and Brawl into the debate when, really, those have nothing to do with this. As I´ve said countless of times here and on other threads, it is not about turning this game into a melee-clone or wannabe. We already have P:M for that for crying out loud.

This is a legitimate debate with its legitimate pros and cons. Calling it "fans want to play melee" is just as biased and baseless as trying to make this a tourney norm without any kind of data except one own´s 2-hour-of-testing opinion. This needs testing, this needs LOADS AND LOADS of testing, however, it also deserves the consideration of testing it.

What I mostly see here are opinions... "I dont think we should", "I feel it will be", "I hated it", "I loved it", yet no factual data. Heck, at best we have around 300 hours of opinions here. These things are not decided on these grounds... we need serious tests, side-tournies data collected trough a long span of time. Once we do, we will be able to confidently tell if the game balance is totally broken, if some charaters trully benefit more than others (sucks to be u Lil'mac, of all, you are the one who trully, and without the need of testing, gains nothing from this), if the game is indeed, more enjoyable or not to watch and play.

So, really... people taking on absolutes saying that this will never be a thing, or that this is sm4sh future... please get real, please get data and, please, dont just disregard things (or simply accept them).

I do not advocate for this (smooth lander and maybe heavy gravity too) to become a tourney standard... yet. However, I could see it (and would love to see it) becoming a more solid and studied meta in the future... a couple of years with proper testings, standarised equipments and numbers, rulesets and stuff, worth of having its own format and tournaments.

What I do wonder right now is, what is the opinion of the pro's on these things? I'll find it hard to believe that they are not aware of the existence of smooth-lander.

 

[RanserSSF4]

I definitly agree that SL and HG is very fun to play, but it's pretty obvious that it tartgets to mostly Melee fans or players who prefer aggressive play.

I mostly would make it for side events/tournaments, because IMO, it will never be the tournament standard since not every tournament will allow equipment or custom moves. Plus, the stats on the equipment is random, and this mode can make the game very unbalanced.

 

[SaturnFrost]

The Brawn Badge smooth Lander that is unlocked on wii u through the challenge of "unlocking all custom moves" is not Random. This can be unlocked with a golden hammer as well and is the challenge on the top row 7th to the right. The stats are standard +36 Att -35 Def,not RNG. I've been testing it quite abit with the default agility (+21 Spd -14 Att) and Protection (+21Def -14 Spd) suggested by Revan_23 since these arent RNG as well and the character stats combined are +22,-14,+7.

From what ive gathered characters die about 1/3 faster than they do with out the equipment on. So a character dying at 120+ would die around 80-90 to the same attack. The knock back on attacks are the same but damage racks up quicker. Hitstun seems more effective and in the favor of the attacker (comboing becomes a thing) due to the lack of recovery frames after landing,same with shield pressure from aerials.

TLDR;
SL can be unlocked with a standard stat of +36 Att-35 Def on wii u. Characters die about 1/3 earlier,Characters can approach easier in the air(less defensive out of shield play). Characters can follow up into combos. Most importantly it has the potential to make underwhelming characters viable in tourney scene and speeds the game up.

 

[RanserSSF4]

The Brawn Badge smooth Lander that is unlocked on wii u through the challenge of "unlocking all custom moves" is not Random. This can be unlocked with a golden hammer as well and is the challenge on the top row 7th to the right. The stats are standard +36 Att -35 Def,not RNG. I've been testing it quite abit with the default agility (+21 Spd -14 Att) and Protection (+21Def -14 Spd) suggested by Revan_23 since these arent RNG as well and the character stats combined are +22,-14,+7.

From what ive gathered characters die about 1/3 faster than they do with out the equipment on. So a character dying at 120+ would die around 80-90 to the same attack. The knock back on attacks are the same but damage racks up quicker. Hitstun seems more effective and in the favor of the attacker (comboing becomes a thing) due to the lack of recovery frames after landing,same with shield pressure from aerials.

TLDR;
SL can be unlokcked with a standard stat of +36 Att-35 Def on wii u, Characters die about 1/3 earlier,Characters can approach easier in the air(less defensive out of shield play), Characters can follow up into combos.most importantly it Has the potential to make unviable characters viable in tourney scene and speeds the game up.

I agree when it comes to effects of SL badge, that's true. However, the stats can become random if you get the same equipment through another mode (Trophy Rush for example). This was the case in the 3DS version. When you unlock a certain equipment via a challenge, you may get that equipment again via another mode, but with different stats. Not saying you're wrong at all. I'm just saying that you may be able to get another SL badge with different stats, but that's after you unlock it first. I've experienced that when I unlock a certain equipment, but after doing another mode, I got the same equipment with different stats.

 

[SaturnFrost]

I agree when it comes to effects of SL badge, that's true. However, the stats can become random if you get the same equipment through another mode (Trophy Rush for example). This was the case in the 3DS version. When you unlock a certain equipment via a challenge, you may get that equipment again via another mode, but with different stats. Not saying you're wrong at all. I'm just saying that you may be able to get another SL badge with different stats, but that's after you unlock it first. I've experienced that when I unlock a certain equipment, but after doing another mode, I got the same equipment with different stats.

so, what then? does the new SL (if its the same badge) replace the old one in the game?

 

[Morbi]

The problem I see around here the most is people really trying to bring the world Melee and Brawl into the debate when, really, those have nothing to do with this. As I´ve said countless of times here and on other threads, it is not about turning this game into a melee-clone or wannabe. We already have P:M for that for crying out loud.

This is a legitimate debate with its legitimate pros and cons. Calling it "fans want to play melee" is just as biased and baseless as trying to make this a tourney norm without any kind of data except one own´s 2-hour-of-testing opinion. This needs testing, this needs LOADS AND LOADS of testing, however, it also deserves the consideration of testing it.

What I mostly see here are opinions... "I dont think we should", "I feel it will be", "I hated it", "I loved it", yet no factual data. Heck, at best we have around 300 hours of opinions here. These things are not decided on these grounds... we need serious tests, side-tournies data collected trough a long span of time. Once we do, we will be able to confidently tell if the game balance is totally broken, if some charaters trully benefit more than others (sucks to be u Lil'mac, of all, you are the one who trully, and without the need of testing, gains nothing from this), if the game is indeed, more enjoyable or not to watch and play.

So, really... people taking on absolutes saying that this will never be a thing, or that this is sm4sh future... please get real, please get data and, please, dont just disregard things (or simply accept them).

I do not advocate for this (smooth lander and maybe heavy gravity too) to become a tourney standard... yet. However, I could see it (and would love to see it) becoming a more solid and studied meta in the future... a couple of years with proper testings, standarised equipments and numbers, rulesets and stuff, worth of having its own format and tournaments.

What I do wonder right now is, what is the opinion of the pro's on these things? I'll find it hard to believe that they are not aware of the existence of smooth-lander.

I agree, I truly do; however, I have to ask, what good will that data do? It will only further support opinions, opinion supported by fact. In essence, we would endure precisely the same "I do not think we should," "I feel it will be," I hated it," and "I loved it" responses.

We still have the problem of introducing an entirely new meta-game to a meta-game that is already developing; therefore, we will still have the same polarizing opinions not necessarily supported by facts, correct?

That being said, it will never happen. Indeed, I am speaking in absolutes to annoy you, but we are quite simply not going to overhaul the entire meta-game. Maybe if the equipment was unlocked by default and maybe if professional players started this discussion prior to launch. As you stated, it is seemingly not a topic of interest or we would have heard something by now or a few tournaments would have tested it (and or held a side tourney). The longer we wait, the less likely this becomes.

 

[Balgorxz]

Duck Hunt can't recover at all. Like Sonic and Mega Man can recover a bit, but Duck Hunt just sinks when you use his up special. Also King DeDeDe doesn't recover as high. It likely effects more character as well. but not as extreme.

thats why every character has instant recoveries in custom up Bs

 

[NewGuy79]

I agree, I truly do; however, I have to ask, what good will that data do? It will only further support opinions, opinion supported by fact. In essence, we would endure precisely the same "I do not think we should," "I feel it will be," I hated it," and "I loved it" responses.

We still have the problem of introducing an entirely new meta-game to a meta-game that is already developing; therefore, we will still have the same polarizing opinions not necessarily supported by facts, correct?

That being said, it will never happen. Indeed, I am speaking in absolutes to annoy you, but we are quite simply not going to overhaul the entire meta-game. Maybe if the equipment was unlocked by default and maybe if professional players started this discussion prior to launch. As you stated, it is seemingly not a topic of interest or we would have heard something by now or a few tournaments would have tested it (and or held a side tourney). The longer we wait, the less likely this becomes.

I'm sorry but I dont think this is valide reason to forgo looking for data, for one professional players and TOs have been showing intrest in smooth launder, both D1 and hungry box have commented on threads focusing on the badge and GIMR have tested it on stream. now why havent they continued to do so? well lake of data and consensus of the community is just one of many reasons why, at this point the only to change that would be to get data and evidence, saying that we should just forget about it simply because you fell as if no one will except it is not an appropriate approach to this IMO.

the mata can adapt and will adapt to changes added to it, this has been so for every advance technique that has ever been found in 64 or melee and has been shown to occur for avery patch given out by PM or Smash4. and lets not forget were meta is concerned were still very young, anything can change at this point for smash4.

but jeez im rambling now,let me just ask you a question:
If I were to determine a method in which we could increase offensive options while retaining the feel and mechanics of smash 4 intact,do you think that this new way to play if given plenty of context and examples would not be accepted by the overall community?

 

[PDOT]

I watched a SL/HG match for the first time today (I know I'm late) and that **** was hype. SSB4 has been boring as hell to watch for me personally and that change of pace to the game is exactly what is needed IMO

 

[Muro]

I'm sorry but I dont think this is valide reason to forgo looking for data, for one professional players and TOs have been showing intrest in smooth launder, both D1 and hungry box have commented on threads focusing on the badge and GIMR have tested it on stream.

just the other day Armada also commented on stream saying something like "yeah I agree options like that should be looked into" (the stream chat was talking about it). I didn't see D1's comments, what did he say?

 

[NewGuy79]

just the other day Armada also commented on stream saying something like "yeah I agree options like that should be looked into" (the stream chat was talking about it). I didn't see D1's comments, what did he say?

dont quite remember what he said, I believe he jumped into the chat when GIMR ( like a week and a half ago) basically saying the same thing that armada did; that he was interested but it needed testing

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I would much rather using some of the other badges than involve HG. If defensive options really needed to go, it would be better to just use dodgy dodger, imperfect shield, or shield degenerator. Anything other than HG which just wrecks recoveries and wrecks many sh auto cancels.

 

[LimitCrown]

What is the problem with shields?

 

[lightdasher]

What is the problem with shields?

They're too strong

 

[MSDChaos]

As others have said before, this would be a nightmare for TOs to enforce. Grinding for the smooth landing equip AS WELL as equipment that negates the stats would be too absurd for players to handle.

A side tourney allowing equipment would make this easily fit in, but allowing it into a no equipment tournament would cause hell.

Couldn't there be something like a save editor for the Wii U.

 

[LimitCrown]

They're too strong

How exactly are shields too strong? Besides, you can grab an opponent who is shielding.