smooth lander- the one custom equipment that should be legal

[-MC-]

I finally made an account because I felt like I had to contribute to threads like these.

Whether or not this ever becomes any sort of standard or acknowledged ruleset...

Smooth lander can be a lot of fun. Plus, it can give characters who are at a disadvantage some fun tools. However, these seemingly fun tools may also hurt gameplay during real competitive play. Also, I'm not saying it's feasible to make a competitive ruleset with this, and I should emphasize just how fun and faster-paced smooth lander can make the gameplay FEEL, but not necessarily actually BE. That's still to be determined I think. On another note, I looked up how to get the fixed-stat smooth lander badge and got it in 20 minutes. All-star with Shulk under 6 minutes (set to easy, do a little damage, then spam smashes and the like) makes the challenge for smooth lander visible on the challenge board, and I used hammers to get it. I know this method has already been discussed; I just wanted to spread the word. I know my friends and I will be playing with smooth lander on a lot from now on, and I might post some gameplay videos at some point.

*Edit: It's important to note that although the gameplay may feel more fun and faster-paced, it might also break some mechanics and/or create worse gameplay in the long run. Even simple testing reveals that shielding aerials becomes a less viable option against new lagless aerials, for example. I'll try to test this more.

But still, I just wanted to bring up the "house rule" side of things. Smooth lander has increased my enjoyment of the game on some fronts, although it may break things during high level serious play that's 100% focused on the best options. It is easy to get the equipment, though. I have a custom set on all characters that has the set smooth lander badge, the default defense badge, and the default speed badge as stated earlier in the thread. That way if I tell someone else about this badge, they can have the exact same set up as me in under an hour.

 

[-MC-]

Someone try Gannon. I am feeling torn about how hard he hits. Need a second opinion.

Ganon's aerials honestly feel more fluent. They're obviously very much sped up when shorthopped; for example, he can use dair more often because now opponents only have a fraction of the millennium they had earlier to punish him if it misses. Also, he still feels like Ganon, and I think his strong hits are a necessary reward for landing them due to the character's weaknesses (slow speed, etc.)

 

[RODO]

Ganon honestly feels much more fluent. He has more tools to work with with smooth lander equipped; for example, he can use dair to punish more often because now opponents only have a fraction of the millennium they had earlier to punish him if it misses. Also, he still feels like Ganon, and I think his strong hits are a necessary reward for landing them due to the character's weaknesses (slow speed, etc.)

Not to mention how easy it is to chain uairs.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Does the added attack power or lowered defense throw off any combos? That would probably be the deciding factor in all of this.

Of course it does.

Even assuming you get a setup for 0/0/0 with just smooth landing and make it transferable for tournies, you're just making a different game. You've decided for yourselves that being able to combo aerials and use them safer is better design. I personally disagree, making more moves safe doesn't help the balance of the game or make it more fun. Nor does it automatically grant more options, as I see people arguing in favor of this throw out repeatedly.

Giving characters all around safer air options benefits certain characters more then others. Giving characters better air options improves air games while potentially invalidating non air options. It's not an all gain/no loss arrangement.

This boils down to what I originally said several pages ago. You want another Melee, except with the new characters. That's fine and dandy, but don't throw around that it suddenly makes things more competitive when it's more likely to throw balance off. If you have fun playing this way, that's great. That's why it's a game. Play it your way.

 

[-MC-]

Not to mention how easy it is to chain uairs.

Agreed. I have another reason for my project m/melee buddy who mains ganon to try smash 4 ganon now, haha.

Concerning characters I play often in both smash 4 and past games/project m, peach's fair returns to at least a large portion of its former glory. I can throw out fairs into the ground again to intimidate/ward off approaching opponents (sometimes, depends on the nature of the neutral at that point) without being as easily punished on shield.

 

[RODO]

Agreed. I have another reason for my project m/melee buddy who mains ganon to try smash 4 ganon now, haha.

Concerning characters I play often in both smash 4 and past games/project m, peach's fair returns to at least a large portion of its former glory. I can throw out fairs into the ground again to intimidate/ward off approaching opponents (sometimes, depends on the nature of the neutral at that point) without being as easily punished on shield.

That's pretty cool lol. I think me and a friend are going to lab with it for awhile and try to find an optimal equipment setup.

 

[Balgorxz]

That's pretty cool lol. I think me and a friend are going to lab with it for awhile and try to find an optimal equipment setup.

I'm doing the same here lol, but now i'm testing stats independently for example this made me realize agility makes characters extremely hard to control but it changes normal attacks completely for example marth with 50 agility can short hop double fair like in other games.

 

[RODO]

I'm doing the same here lol, but now i'm testing stats independently for example this made me realize agility makes characters extremely hard to control but it changes normal attacks completely for example marth with 50 agility can short hop double fair like in other games.

wow that's actualy a pretty cool find!

 

[-MC-]

I'm doing the same here lol, but now i'm testing stats independently for example this made me realize agility makes characters extremely hard to control but it changes normal attacks completely for example marth with 50 agility can short hop double fair like in other games.

Pretty sure this is just because high agility affects jump height in general. Everyone will be jumping higher with 50 agility. But maybe that's what you meant

 

[RODO]

Do what know what percentage of lag the smooth lander cuts off?

 

[-MC-]

Do what know what percentage of lag the smooth lander cuts off?

1/3 across the board I think, as in 1/3 is cut

 

[Balgorxz]

does anyone have frame data to know if agility reduces landing lagg?

 

[smashbro29]

Is there a combination that would give smooth landing but also flat stats?

 

[LimitCrown]

Is there a combination that would give smooth landing but also flat stats?

It doesn't seem to be possible since the attack stat increase is too large. You would also need to be lucky enough to get the equipment that makes the stat changes close to flat.

 

[smashbro29]

It doesn't seem to be possible since the attack stat increase is too large. You would also need to be lucky enough to get the equipment that makes the stat changes close to flat.

If someone finds an easy way to make this happen we could potentially speed up Smash 4 big time.

 

[HeavyLobster]

If someone finds an easy way to make this happen we could potentially speed up Smash 4 big time.

You can usually get spreads of +15-20 attack and near-zero defense and speed builds pretty easily. Attack doesn't change the game much at all except for slight damage buffs, so any build within that general ballpark should be easy enough to come by and won't mess things up too much. Also Fox is completely crazy with Smooth Lander, with all of his aerials now functioning as combo starters to go along with his already capable ground-to-air combos. I'm not sure what the rest of the cast is capable, so I'm not sure if he rises to the level of being broken, but people who yearn for the "Fox only" days of old might well get their wish.

 

[smashbro29]

You can usually get spreads of +15-20 attack and near-zero defense and speed builds pretty easily. Attack doesn't change the game much at all except for slight damage buffs, so any build within that general ballpark should be easy enough to come by and won't mess things up too much. Also Fox is completely crazy with Smooth Lander, with all of his aerials now functioning as combo starters to go along with his already capable ground-to-air combos. I'm not sure what the rest of the cast is capable, so I'm not sure if he rises to the level of being broken, but people who yearn for the "Fox only" days of old might well get their wish.

It's gotta be 0-0-0.

 

[Leebee]

Of course it does.

Even assuming you get a setup for 0/0/0 with just smooth landing and make it transferable for tournies, you're just making a different game. You've decided for yourselves that being able to combo aerials and use them safer is better design. I personally disagree, making more moves safe doesn't help the balance of the game or make it more fun. Nor does it automatically grant more options, as I see people arguing in favor of this throw out repeatedly.

Giving characters all around safer air options benefits certain characters more then others. Giving characters better air options improves air games while potentially invalidating non air options. It's not an all gain/no loss arrangement.

This boils down to what I originally said several pages ago. You want another Melee, except with the new characters. That's fine and dandy, but don't throw around that it suddenly makes things more competitive when it's more likely to throw balance off. If you have fun playing this way, that's great. That's why it's a game. Play it your way.

no one here wants another melee

but keep on building that strawman! you're so good at it!


unless there's more standard equipment (or some sort of RNG reproducible piece), 0/0/0 just won't happen. I don't think that's bad. I just think it's something that we shouldn't plan around. experiments with the standard equips like above are a good first foray into testing a ruleset!

 

[Pyr]

You can usually get spreads of +15-20 attack and near-zero defense and speed builds pretty easily. Attack doesn't change the game much at all except for slight damage buffs, so any build within that general ballpark should be easy enough to come by and won't mess things up too much. Also Fox is completely crazy with Smooth Lander, with all of his aerials now functioning as combo starters to go along with his already capable ground-to-air combos. I'm not sure what the rest of the cast is capable, so I'm not sure if he rises to the level of being broken, but people who yearn for the "Fox only" days of old might well get their wish.

+15 attack causes people to die 20-25% earlier. It increases damage, knockback, shieldstun... At +60 attack, Ganon FSmash starts 1-hitting people (charged) at 0% if they're at the right edge of FD, and almost uncharged. It changes A LOT.

 

[LimitCrown]

Certain air attacks have moderately large landing lag because the move is usually powerful, but the Smooth Lander effect just seems to ruin the point of having some air attacks being risky to use.

 

[Pyr]

Still really like this post from earlier in the thread:

Read through the thread and I've just gotta point out the obvious. Anyone here that has any tournament experience knows that this is never going to happen. It's always good to discuss things of this nature, but all the hard counters to the proposal are getting ignored.

• Requiring people to have experience playing the game under abnormal circumstances never works. Even if it were to be come widely accepted in the Smash community, there will always be local players at tournaments that will be put off by this.
• A large portion of the community will never accept the idea of fixing something that isn't broken.
• Grinding has always been shown to discourage new players from becoming competitive.

We all know what's going to happen in the coming years. Someone is going to find a hack for Smash Bros Wii U and soon after the first modded versions of the game will begin development. We will certainly have a Project M: U at some point in the near future and it will likely coexist side-by-side with the vanilla game.

And if this is more about the 3DS version of the game, please keep in mind that the 3DS version will likely never be more than a side tournament. Yes people love it, but we all know the competitive future for Smash lies on the console.

 

[kenniky]

Personally I don't think this is very viable until save files can be transferred due to the impossibility of obtaining flat stats.

Spoiler: Let's equip test!

I went through my copy of Smash 3DS and all of the equips using the sell page to find all my Smooth Lander equipment.

I have one.

smooth lander boots +14 spd -26 atk - reduced landing impact

Ok, -26 attack, let's see what equips I have that have +26 attack

crouch healer gloves +26 atk -38 def - heal while crouching
thistle jump sacred treasures +26 atk -23 def - floaty jumps

Hmm... Ok, let's start with the gloves, and find equips that have +38 defense. Note that both equips influence the gameplay in another way.

super protection badge +38 def -20 spd Overall: +0 ATK, +0 DEF, -6 SPD
super protection badge +38 def -20 spd Overall: +0 ATK, +0 DEF, -6 SPD
item pitcher jacket +38 def -35 spd - throwing item boost Overall: +0 ATK, +0 DEF, -21 SPD
lip's stick x defense +38 def -25 spd - lip's stick equipped Overall: +0 ATK, +0 DEF, -11 SPD
trade-off attacker clothers +38 def -36 spd - improved trade-off attack Overall: +0 ATK, +0 DEF, -22 SPD

And the Sacred Treasures:

quick batter protection badge +23 def -22 spd - quicker bat swing Overall: +0 ATK, +0 DEF, -8 SPD
trade-off defender hat +23 def -26 spd - improved trade-off defense Overall: +0 ATK, +0 DEF, -12 SPD
rookie's jacket +23 def -14 spd Overall: +0 ATK, +0 DEF, +0 SPD
double-jump boost jacket +23 def -30 spd - improved double jump Overall: +0 ATK, +0 DEF, -16 SPD
speed crasher cap +23 def -28 spd - crash run Overall: +0 ATK, +0 DEF, -14 SPD
caloric speedster dress +23 def -24 spd - improved speed after eating Overall: +0 ATK, +0 DEF, -10 SPD

There is one combination that gives 0/0/0:
smooth lander boots
thistle jump sacred treasures
rookie's jacket
which also has the weird floaty jump thing.

And as Pit doesn't wear boots or a jacket, this setup is completely null.

As a measure, I've played this game for 139 hours and 45 minutes, most of which has been grinding custom specials and such.

Basically what I'm saying here is that it's nigh impossible to get a perfect set, and as other people have mentioned in this thread, equipment differences, even small ones, change the stats of a character pretty drastically.

Also, having reduced landing lag changes up the game a lot. Characters with little landing lag like Sheik are not going to benefit much, while characters with high landing lag such as Ganondorf benefit a whole lot. And while some might argue that it balances the game more, we don't know that. It might make a character with killer techniques ridiculously stronger because their aerials have a lot of landing lag. Plus it deviates from the balancing that the SSB4 team did, and they did a pretty great job of it.

tl;dr: no.

 

[Thinkaman]

I spent a day playing with smooth lander. Here's some observations:


First, the offensive gains on-hit are very sparse. There are very, very few combos smooth lander allows, since landing aerials so rarely link into other moves at this level of hitstun. They are almost exclusively low-% followups like MM fair-dtilt or Marth fair-ftilt. (Followups which normally frame trap anyway; SL just makes them true combo instead)

If you think the game feels substantially different on-hit, sorry. Placebo is a hell of a drug.


Second, what DOES change dramatically is on-block behavior, though really only for fast characters. Characters with ~10 frame landing lag aerials are now safe on block unspaced. So moves like:

• Diddy bair
• Palutena fair
• Sheik fair/bair
• ZSS bair/uair
• Mario bair/uair
• Falcon bair/uair

...become safe on block. They still give the opponent frame advantage, but it's so low that it's not actionable for almost anyone. (Maybe Mario, Marth, or Bowser can up-b)

This huge gameplay change had two implications:


First totally-safe-aerials was REALLY unenjoyable to play against. I normally don't roll much (rolling is bad and shielding is better), but now shielding is useless the moment these characters jump. So I ended up rolling a lot more. There was a lot more running away in general, since standing your ground against aerials was way less viable.

Second, this only applies to the characters listed. Poor Ganondorf and Charizard; we'd still shield and punish their failed aerials all day long. Sometimes punishments were a little less (most smashes won't work), but that's small consolation when Diddy is doing a tap-dance on your face with a bair that is safe-on-block regardless of spacing.

It's very Melee-like in the sense that the fast top-tiers become broken, and everyone else gets to cry about it.


tl;dr - I still think that everyone's obsession with landing lag is completely misplaced. Reducing landing lag doesn't affect the purported goals--it doesn't add more on-hit options (combos), it doesn't help slow characters, and it forces people to roll more.

 

[Epok]

I spent a day playing with smooth lander. Here's some observations:


First, the offensive gains on-hit are very sparse. There are very, very few combos smooth lander allows, since landing aerials so rarely link into other moves at this level of hitstun. They are almost exclusively low-% followups like MM fair-dtilt or Marth fair-ftilt. (Followups which normally frame trap anyway; SL just makes them true combo instead)

If you think the game feels substantially different on-hit, sorry. Placebo is a hell of a drug.


Second, what DOES change dramatically is on-block behavior, though really only for fast characters. Characters with ~10 frame landing lag aerials are now safe on block unspaced. So moves like:

• Diddy bair
• Palutena fair
• Sheik fair/bair
• ZSS bair/uair
• Mario bair/uair
• Falcon bair/uair

...become safe on block. They still give the opponent frame advantage, but it's so low that it's not actionable for almost anyone. (Maybe Mario, Marth, or Bowser can up-b)

This huge gameplay change had two implications:


First totally-safe-aerials was REALLY unenjoyable to play against. I normally don't roll much (rolling is bad and shielding is better), but now shielding is useless the moment these characters jump. So I ended up rolling a lot more. There was a lot more running away in general, since standing your ground against aerials was way less viable.

Second, this only applies to the characters listed. Poor Ganondorf and Charizard; we'd still shield and punish their failed aerials all day long. Sometimes punishments were a little less (most smashes won't work), but that's small consolation when Diddy is doing a tap-dance on your face with a bair that is safe-on-block regardless of spacing.

It's very Melee-like in the sense that the fast top-tiers become broken, and everyone else gets to cry about it.


tl;dr - I still think that everyone's obsession with landing lag is completely misplaced. Reducing landing lag doesn't affect the purported goals--it doesn't add more on-hit options (combos), it doesn't help slow characters, and it forces people to roll more.

First of all I really appreciate you taking the time to play it and give solid feed back. Like I have said before I wanted to get feed back from people that have actually played it and experienced it to give me intelligent feedback about the pros and cons. So again, Thank you.

Another thing is that I feel as if there is still a grey area between people obsessed with end lag.

I understand the concept of end lag and I'm not really salty about it. I do understand that approaching should be a gamble. But
I'm still iffy about the reward for having a successful approach isn't quite there. That obviously effected by a number of things. Offense are a very sensitive thing. Too much offensive potential, you gain too much free damage from combo that as safe to begin with.
Not enough offensive and the game become very cautious which can be (debatable) dull or non-engaging.

So I guess I kind of begs the question? Is the balance of offense and defense skewed? Or since there are further better defensive options do we just feel it's unbalanced?

I think a lot of people in here assumed I was just whining about endlag when really I think it's important to challenge things more. Let's see where all the aspects of this game can take us. I have always looked at smash as a sandbox fighting game where there are a ton of ways to play. Never at anytime in this thread did I suggest this is the way that tournament smash should be played. I did however stress the fact that since we don't have enough research put into it. It would be worth testing to make sure we are not missing out on something big. As a lot of people said, it's a new game. We should treat it as such and explore everything it has to offer whether good or bad.

I still would like to see videos of people playing the game and get more diverse opinions.

 

[Lenus Altair]

no one here wants another melee

but keep on building that strawman! you're so good at it!
!

I like how you ignored everything else relevant I had to say, because it's true. Thinkaman's testing goes in the direction my post implied.

 

[Thinkaman]

Also, I can (re-)confirm that SL doesn't affect air dodge landing lag, only normal aerial attacks. This was already known, but just putting it out there again.

 

[-MC-]

I think that overall we've established there's no real way this can catch on as an established ruleset, even if it was a 100% positive change. Also, posts like Thinkaman's do show a lot about the truth behind the real differences it makes and the differences we may feel. Even though I like the prospect of somewhat lower landing lag, some of the perceived advantages may actually become disadvantages when the player really begins to focus on the best options (rolling can become even more potent apparently). I guess I'll just play more and see how things go...

 

[Balgorxz]

I think that overall we've established there's no real way this can catch on as an established ruleset, even if it was a 100% positive change. Also, posts like Thinkaman's do show a lot about the truth behind the real differences it makes and the differences we may feel. Even though I like the prospect of somewhat lower landing lag, some of the perceived advantages may actually become disadvantages when the player really begins to focus on the best options (rolling can become even more potent apparently). I guess I'll just play more and see how things go...

giving the players some freedom is always a good idea that's why smash 4 has so many customizable aspects compared to other smash games, it was build around that to find whatever you like the best, the combination of SL with some stats here and there make smash 4 which is already good a more viewer friendly game while keeping its style that differenciates it from older titles

 

[-MC-]

giving the players some freedom is always a good idea that's why smash 4 has so many customizable aspects compared to other smash games, it was build around that to find whatever you like the best, the combination of SL with some stats here and there make smash 4 which is already good a more viewer friendly game while keeping its style that differenciates it from older titles

Yes, I agree about the customization; I'll play the way my group likes best even if it's not a standard. I'll be playing more with people this weekend and hopefully I can record some replays of smooth lander footage.

 

[HeavyLobster]

It does seem pretty clear to me right now that Smooth Lander meta won't develop into anything more than house rules for Melee fans, as the meta is too clearly broken for it to develop into something serious. It doesn't really matter if Ganondorf's aerials are now safeish when spaced when you consider that Sheik or someone like that can basically just mash SH aerials and never get punished at all. It's also basically impossible to actually get 0/0/0 stat values without hacking, so we might as well just focus on experimenting with all custom equipment and see where that takes us. Something like spawning with a particular item isn't necessarily broken, and is fundamentally no different than ZSS's armor pieces in Brawl, so it might be beneficial to see how things play out with custom effects we might not see as competitive in the traditional sense.

 

[RODO]

It does seem pretty clear to me right now that Smooth Lander meta won't develop into anything more than house rules for Melee fans, as the meta is too clearly broken for it to develop into something serious. It doesn't really matter if Ganondorf's aerials are now safeish when spaced when you consider that Sheik or someone like that can basically just mash SH aerials and never get punished at all. It's also basically impossible to actually get 0/0/0 stat values without hacking, so we might as well just focus on experimenting with all custom equipment and see where that takes us. Something like spawning with a particular item isn't necessarily broken, and is fundamentally no different than ZSS's armor pieces in Brawl, so it might be beneficial to see how things play out with custom effects we might not see as competitive in the traditional sense.

Maybe we could experiment with only giving the characters with laggy aerials the smooth lander instead of everyone?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Maybe we could experiment with only giving the characters with laggy aerials the smooth lander instead of everyone?

How do we define who gets Smooth Lander and who doesn't? You could classify Ike or Shulk as characters with laggy aerials, but with Smooth Lander they become ridiculous as well because of their range. I don't think they're quite as broken as *insert generic high-tier rushdown character with Smooth Lander*, but they could be too much for any of the unbuffed cast. This type of thing would almost certainly devolve into some sort of arbitrary attempt to self-patch the game with everyone arguing that their character "needs" certain buffs and no one would be able to come to any sort of consensus.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Maybe we could experiment with only giving the characters with laggy aerials the smooth lander instead of everyone?

I don't believe any character has exclusively laggy aerials, or in other words I think everyone has at least one non-laggy aerial. Any cutoff will be arbitrary anyway and result in much salt.

 

[Muro]

so based on feedback, jumping is not a huge commitment anymore, but shielding is. That honestly sounds amazing.

 

[Balgorxz]

other thing I noticed that some characterss benefit from negative agility since it makes their short hop minimal and with smooth lander you can perma space with aerials

so based on feedback, jumping is not a huge commitment anymore, but shielding is. That honestly sounds amazing.

all depends on what build you are using if you use for example smooth lander +20/-10/0 the -10 is enough for making shield vulnerable and improving offensive options

 

[Pyr]

other thing I noticed that some characterss benefit from negative agility since it makes their short hop minimal and with smooth lander you can perma space with aerials


all depends on what build you are using if you use for example smooth lander +20/-10/0 the -10 is enough for making shield vulnerable and improving offensive options

First, the impact on even marginal stat increases/decreases would require a 0/0/0.

Second, negative agility does not affect jump height: Source Hard-Hitting Tank Ganon with < -30 speed still jumps just as high.

 

[Graydient]

Getting 0/0/0 is impossible using generic badges because generic badges have a positive tradeoff.

You could potentially make it 0/0/0 using certain abilities that, in general competitive, play have no effect. Something like Final Smash abilities could work. I don't know what the badges offered by Events/Challenges are, someone else could maybe look into it.

 

[Qzzy]

Can't find the post, I think someone suggested using the equipment that the games starts you off with in conjunction with the consistently obtainable smoothlander to make stats even-ish, though not 0/0/0. Any suggestions for someone who before now has been selling everything just for coins to play crazy orders and create less clutter? Is the original equipment re-obtainable?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Can't find the post, I think someone suggested using the equipment that the games starts you off with in conjunction with the consistently obtainable smoothlander to make stats even-ish, though not 0/0/0. Any suggestions for someone who before now has been selling everything just for coins to play crazy orders and create less clutter? Is the original equipment re-obtainable?

Eh, probably if you grind hard enough and get lucky with the same stat values. But I don't think there's a reliable way to get any equipment other than from the challenge rewards.

 

[Muro]

woah lots of users reading the thread, hopefully people try it out!