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Smashboards Mini-Recreates: The SSB Series Rosters

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Job 12: Submit Another Clone

I choose Poo from the EarthBound series.
Poo | EarthBound Wiki | Fandom

I figured that a Ness clone could be on the table for this game at this stage of development. Plus, it'd be funny to see your opponent get beaten by a guy named Poo.
 
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KneeOfJustice99

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Job #12
Character Name: Donkey Kong Jr.
Character Origin: Donkey Kong Jr.
(1982)
Clone Of?: Donkey Kong

There's been a lot of talk of "retro reps" this time around, which is in my mind a pretty interesting subject - but I think this one in particular is in a unique position to be a genuinely decent candidate this time around.

Donkey Kong Jr. would essentially be a clone of Donkey Kong himself, but he's generally faster and lighter than DK - which is offset by him comparatively lacking in outright kill power. Where this gets offset is in that Jr. could possibly have one or two moves here and there that work in a more unique way, retrofitting some animations from different places - whether it be an upward key thrust using one of the swordies' animations, or even something like an "item pull" which lets him pull and toss a Snapjaws, Freezie, or Green Shell item. Or even a Barrel. (Three of these four already exist as items in Melee, after all. Technically all four, if you count the Klaptrap in Jungle Japes as a solid animaiton base for a Snapjaws.)

Plus, while he's obviously retro-oriented (intended as a representation of arcade-era DK & Mario), he's still got some more modern appearances in spinoffs like Mario Tennis and the Game & Watch Gallery series... and he's a prominent character in one of Nintendo's most iconic series and eras.

I dunno, I think he'd be a fun and unorthodox pick that'd still make some sense. While I guess there's an argument for Mario-adjescent stuff already being well-represented, Jr. feels like he's representing something different enough to give him his own flavour and feel.
 
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Louie G.

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I was considering sitting out this round, but let's get weird because why the hell not.

Job 12: Sneasel (Clone of Meowth)
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I think we're probably pretty much set with Pokemon, but everyone took the characters I already thought of and I felt like trying to be creative. I don't think it would cross most of our minds initially to clone a character who we aren't already familiar with in Smash proper. But hypothetically, I think Meowth would have a pretty standard claw slash-y kit that could be adopted by other animalistic characters. Here is a take on the character that leans into darker effects and maybe some ice / freeze effects as well? Perhaps if Meowth's Neutral B is Pay Day, Sneasel's would be comparable to Ice Climbers' Blizzard or something.

I'm aware Sneasel is kind of a random choice, but it's an interesting one right? We've been coloring in the lines here more or less, but perhaps Smash is better for having some weirdo Pokemon like Jigglypuff around just because they had a couple things in common with someone else. To my knowledge they aren't as prominent in the anime, but let's say Sneasel was a Pokemon that Sakurai really took a liking to for one reason or another. I think we'd learn to love it. Who knows.
 
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KneeOfJustice99

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Here are the nominations
Pupp135 Pupp135 Young Link
nirvanafan nirvanafan Celica
BritishGuy54 BritishGuy54 Daisy
M Master Hero Sock-on-Rye Poo
DragonRobotKing26 DragonRobotKing26 Gigue/Gigyas
Northsouthmap Northsouthmap Roy
KneeOfJustice99 KneeOfJustice99 Donkey Kong Jr.
D darkvortex Paula
TORNADO BUS DRIVER TORNADO BUS DRIVER Dr. Mario
TheLastMaverickHunter TheLastMaverickHunter Saki
Louie G. Louie G. Sneasel

Vote for your three most wanted, where yours is not first.

1. Daisy
2. Young Link
3. Roy
  1. Celica (A pretty unique concept who I think could work pretty well, even if we only gave her the Lucina treatment of removing her tipper. That said, Celica's use of magic in Gaiden could maybe lend to a fun fireball projectile, or even just fire effects on particularly powerful attacks.)
  2. Sneasel (A second Gen II Pokémon isn't something I'd complain about, and this honestly feels like a really creative clone that'd be a lot of fun to play as. Plus, Sneasel's lowkey kinda cool anyway. A weird, but fun, pick that I think really gives this game a unique vibe.)
  3. Dr. Mario (I think a puzzle-game rep of some kind would be fun, and Dr. Mario's moveset feels like it'd be fun to keep around too. Say what you will, but I think he's a fun candidate.)
Lots of great submissions here, but shoutouts to Daisy and Paula for making it pretty close - and Saki for being a really unique concept. Other ideas were pretty cool too! (Poo especially. I think he'd be fun, but I'm not sure if Mother specifically is in need of a second rep?)
 
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Louie G.

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1. Poo
2. Celica
3. Donkey Kong Jr.

I'm pretty disappointed in how little support the Mother characters are getting here. Maybe because they're splintered across three different nominations, but I think Poo is a really interesting choice. You'd essentially be looking at a quicker Ness, likely with less range and raw power but more physicality and combo setup. Maybe his PK Flash is instead Brainshock, and has a similar effect to Mewtwo's Disable. FSmash would be a big slash with Sword of Kings, or maybe something like Mario's if they have the freedom to do so. Just needs a couple new moves to replace Ness' yoyo. Paula is an idea that crossed my mind too, but Poo excites me more. There's a lot of potential to be iterated on further in a sequel too, like Falco. Believe it or not, he was also pretty popular during Brawl era speculation, so I think he would have been well received.

I like Celica, but one of her claims to fame is being able to use magic tomes. I was wondering then if it would be a good idea to add her without them, but after looking into it I recognize she's pretty much exclusively sword-based in Fire Emblem Warriors as well. If nothing else, it's not wholly unfitting for her to be a Marth clone. Was pretty close to voting for Roy instead, but if we're being real... Roy still doesn't actually exist in the eyes of the public at this point. I think in this case it might be better for us to experiment with something new, and we could use a couple more girls on the roster.

Wasn't immediately sold on him, but I'm kinda into Junior now. We haven't really added an arcade era character this wave and while I'd rather not put all of our eggs in the Marioverse basket, I think DK Jr. has the potential to be a pretty charming take on the Kong. Swapping out sheer power for a bit more mobility, I've always liked the idea of a lighter speedier take on a superheavy and we've never quite got one. And if we want to iterate on DK's moveset at all, giving Junior the ability to utilize item play like barrels or bananas could work and not be too developmentally taxing since they're already in the game.

Wanted to give my Sneasel nomination a bit of love, but admittedly I think four Pokemon is a fine amount for now. I'm happy it seems to have connected with some people though, I'd still be glad to see it pushed through. I'm surprised that Young Link isn't getting much support, seeing how Zelda is in a pretty lousy position this game (compared to the whopping 5 characters it got in the real Melee), but I dunno. We have a lot of compelling new choices this time around so Young Link doesn't stand out much in a vacuum. And Daisy... not a bad choice, but feels a little early maybe. We also have a LOT of Mario adjacent stuff already.
 
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LoZ00

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1. Celica: ok, so she is a personal favorite of mine (I absolutely ADORE Echoes: SoV), but I think she might work very well. Also, taking a peek into the future of the Smash series, I think we can pull a Chrom out of her and having her moveset mostly mirror Marth's, while giving her Zelda's side special. Admittedly, a swordfighter with a zoning tool like this might be quite powerful (although Din's Fire is not an excellent move), but if the rest of Celica's attributes were like Roy's in OT Melee, then this is only fair. Though I like the idea of removing the tipper/hilt mechanic better, tbf.
2. Saki: I really like cross-series clones and I think that the roster so far is good, but it kind of uses too many characters from old series (which is something that Melee itself was admittedly kind guilty of). If I weren't that biased towards SoV, I think Saki would have easily been my #1 choice.
2. Daisy: honestly, in terms of popularity, she stands in a better place than Dr. Mario. I know that Doc might be a bit more fun, but I think that a Melee take on Daisy, with more powerful attacks, better speed and jumps, and a lack of float to compensate could be a much more faithful interpretation of the character than the one we got in Ultimate.
 

darkvortex

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1. Poo
2. Celica
3. Donkey Kong Jr.

I'm pretty disappointed in how little support the Mother characters are getting here. Maybe because they're splintered across three different nominations, but I think Poo is a really interesting choice. You'd essentially be looking at a quicker Ness, likely with less range and raw power but more physicality and combo setup. Maybe his PK Flash is instead Brainshock, and has a similar effect to Mewtwo's Disable. FSmash would be a big slash with Sword of Kings, or maybe something like Mario's if they have the freedom to do so. Just needs a couple new moves to replace Ness' yoyo. Paula is an idea that crossed my mind too, but Poo excites me more. There's a lot of potential to be iterated on further in a sequel too, like Falco. Believe it or not, he was also pretty popular during Brawl era speculation, so I think he would have been well received.
This convinced me to vote for Poo, though I think Lucas being likely for next time might be making folks shy away.
 

Pupp135

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Here are the votes
Young Link 7
Celica 16
Daisy 9
Poo 6
Gigue/Gigyas
Roy 6
Donkey Kong Jr. 10
Paula
Dr. Mario 4
Saki 7
Sneasel 7

Celica, Donkey Kong Jr., and Daisy are the final clones added.

Here are two things below:

Melee Check-In: What is everyone’s opinion on our Alternate Melee roster? What do you like about this roster, and what would you have done differently, and what do you hope to see with our Alternate Brawl roster?
Mr. Game & Watch
Mario
Luigi
Bowser
Princess Peach
Princess Daisy
Donkey Kong
Donkey Kong Jr.
Yoshi
Wario
Link
Princess Zelda
Samus Aaran
Marth
Celica
Captain Falcon
Black Shadow
Kirby
King Dedede
Fox
Falco
Ness
Pikachu
Meowth
Mewtwo
Pichu
Overall, I think the roster highlights most of the major picks, and I think the clones are interesting choices. I like seeing Celica on the roster, and I think Daisy would’ve fit well in Melee. The only things that I would’ve liked to see were Ice Climbers and Sheik, but I can understand why they were excluded. For Alternate Brawl, my biggest hopes are for Ice Climbers, Ike, and Pokemon Trainer to join, and I expect Ganondorf, Diddy Kong, and Meta Knight.

Job 13: Please Specify Whether Snake And/Or Sonic Should Be Playable in Our Alternate Brawl Roster.
I’d like to keep both of them in.
 

KneeOfJustice99

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Check-In: Honestly, for the time period, the roster looks pretty good to me. I'd say the only real "issue" is the lack of a Ganondorf, but with hindsight, seeing Black Shadow in his place while F-Zero is still a relevant series is really cool - and he'd be a great headlining inclusion for Brawl.

Job #013: I think this sort of depends on how you want to manufacture the "world" around these rosters. On principle, I think Snake and Sonic make a lot of sense and would be a lot of fun to see, but we'd still need to consider elements like - would Sonic's inclusion be delayed because of SEGA, resulting in his "80% Ball" moveset that we ended up seeing? Even so, they're a good pair to kick the third-party train off.

Ultimately, I think Sonic would get in anyway. Even so, it could be neat to have a voting round for the other third-party... though, it'd probably be Snake regardless. (Even if I'd probably submit Mega Man. Heh.)
 
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Check-In: Honestly, I think this roster is an improvement over our own Melee roster. We've got a legit Captain Falcon clone in favor of upending Ganondorf in his image, Donkey Kong Jr. has more relevance here than he ever would otherwise, Fire Emblem looks more unique with swapping Roy for Celica, and we finally have all the Original 12 in the series. Going into Brawl, I'd love to see Diddy Kong, Charizard, Meta Knight, and Ganondorf added. And if Subspace Emissary is similar to our universe's take, Ganondorf might be even more important.

Job #12: Truthfully, I would keep Sonic for Brawl, but replace Snake with a different Konami character like Simon Belmont or Bomberman. If we did that, Sonic could be our E3 closer and have a more varied moveset. Besides, Snake was one of the first third-party casualties in Smash anyway.
 

Louie G.

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Check-In: The roster is pretty good. I think we ended up playing it pretty safe with the unique faces, understandably so... Melee is kind of the time to get those essential secondary characters in. But I had a lot of fun with the clone rounds, and I'm happy our lineup ended up looking so distinct from the real one. I also commend everyone for having the restraint not to add Ganondorf just yet. I know that "Ganon" obviously existed well beforehand, but "Ganondorf" was still a new idea from a single game and I think after Wind Waker and Twilight Princess he's got plenty of material to pull from in Brawl. He's like #1 seed for Brawl and if we're being honest that's probably how it should have went down IRL too.

That said, Zelda does look strikingly barren. I think it would have been kinda neat if we got Sheik in anyway, but I'm not complaining that priority went toward someone like Dedede. I still stand by that Yoshi should have been held off as a big Brawl reveal, since we added Wario to 64 instead, so I suppose I'm a little iffy on newcomers ending up so skewed in Mario's direction. I'm not convinced Daisy was really someone worth adding at this stage, since most of her distinct personality starts to materialize during the GC era, but in that way I suppose her addition will age pretty well. Just unsure if the tomboy stuff would have been prominent enough when Melee released to inform the moveset she should have.

Assessing this roster from a variety standpoint, I think we're doing a pretty okay job but we could use another rushdown, speedster type character in the absence of Sheik. I suppose Meowth is probably partially serving this archetype in our alternate universe, though. There are a few obvious faces I'm expecting to see in Brawl and I'm curious how much we'll get to experiment with this one. Brawl has one of the strongest newcomer lineups for sure so I think we'll end up wanting to follow in its footsteps for a good deal of them.
--

Job 13: If we fasttrack Sonic and Snake onto the roster, I guess I'm curious what this means for later third party additions. Do Mega Man and Pac-Man get in automatically too (considering I'm certain they'd be voted in anyway)? I suppose when discussing Brawl it's fair enough to do this since the possibilities are not as endless as they seem now, it was just Konami and Sega. Would it be realistic if we swapped out Snake for, I dunno, Cloud? I feel like that probably wasn't feasible at the time, so maybe it's not worth discussing after all.

Maybe the way to go, if we want to open up the floor at all, would be putting up alternative Sega or Konami characters if anything. But I also think if we put up separate nominations these two would rank highly anyway - particularly Sonic, it would just be a waste of time to pretend there's a competition. So I wouldn't mind if we did just go ahead and add them, although I'd rather not make that a precedent moving forward. Part of the fun down the line will be voting in different third parties. Knee does bring up an interesting point about Sonic's moveset... but that's also part of the condition that delayed the game and allowed us three extra characters on the roster. If we're following these rosters down to the number then his inclusion is pretty important.

Bottom line, I'm fine with just letting them in if we don't think there's much of a discussion to be had otherwise. I'm curious if we'll extend the same hand toward Mega Man and Pac-Man, and at that point I honestly don't see why we wouldn't (the only competition here would probably be Ryu). But that should be the full extent of it, probably.
 
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Pupp135

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Regarding the Snake and Sonic thing, if Snake is not added, a different third party can take his place that is not necessarily Konami (he was added based on Kojima’s request). For Sonic, he’d still be announced later on as Sega didn’t agree until later in development. This topic is based on the unique nature of Snake and Sonic’s inclusions than anything else. Other third parties will be handled differently.

On an unrelated note, I updated the character roster appearances.
 
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BritishGuy54

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If we're following these rosters down to the number then his inclusion is pretty important.
Oh yeah, that reminds me of another point. The cuts.

From Melee’s roster of 26, 5 characters were cut. That includes 4 clones (:ultdoc::ultpichu::ultyounglink::ultroy:), and 1 unique character (Mewtwo).

The Melee clones who were brought over to Brawl were Ganondorf and Falco in our timeline.

So I suppose there could be a round coming up surrounding who we end up cutting going into Brawl, if we are going by the numbers.
 

Louie G.

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So I suppose there could be a round coming up surrounding who we end up cutting going into Brawl, if we are going by the numbers.
Yeah, this round is going to be really interesting. Some early thoughts, and not to show my hand too early, but I think we should extend the prospect of cuts out to Smash 64 and create our own narrative. Do we want to maintain an untouchable Original 12, or prioritize the fan favorite characters added in Melee? I feel like this may end up coming down to Meowth vs Mewtwo, seeing how little room we've left ourselves for Melee cuts with all these essential characters.

The clones seem pretty straightforward to me personally, although I won't talk too much about it yet. Though I will say Donkey Kong Jr would be in some danger of getting replaced by Diddy Kong in this universe, as he essentially was for the rest of time.
 
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Pupp135

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Oh yeah, that reminds me of another point. The cuts.

From Melee’s roster of 26, 5 characters were cut. That includes 4 clones (:ultdoc::ultpichu::ultyounglink::ultroy:), and 1 unique character (Mewtwo).

The Melee clones who were brought over to Brawl were Ganondorf and Falco in our timeline.

So I suppose there could be a round coming up surrounding who we end up cutting going into Brawl, if we are going by the numbers.
I was thinking of us doing something similar to what I did in my Alternate Brawl thread last year where we did drip fed returns (e.g. 5 E3 veterans, and a few getting added every now an then until we have 21 veterans filled, but it doesn’t necessarily need to be 21 in this timeline).
 
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LoZ00

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Melee check-in: I kind of like this roster better than the official one, honestly. It perhaps leans a bit too much towards Mario-adjacent characters, but my only (and admittedly pretty minor) gripe here might be with DK Jr. If anything, the roster might be a bit lacking in terms of Zelda characters, but I'd rather save Ganondorf for a game where he could actually shine instead of having him being our own Falcondorf.
The clones are interesting and definitely a highlight. I particularly appreciate Daisy and Celica, though Black Shadow deserves a mention. It's fun that we actually kept Pichu, because I actually really like its presence in Melee and I think it was an great way to highlight in a low-effort character both Gen 2 of Pokémon and its most influential mechanic, breeding.
Probably the only character I would have not confirmed from Melee is G&W. Don't get me wrong, I like the character, but I think that, with the roster we currently have, a more standard NES character would have made for a better choice. Sakurai's idea of Ice Climbers was ingenious, though I would have probably personally gone with Little Mac, being a somewhat popular NES title with strong ties to fighting games (though Punch-Out arguably wasn't a fighting game).

Job #13: Ok, Sonic ought to stay in the game, he is definitely the most iconic non-Nintendo character they could have added to the game to still make Brawl a celebration of Nintendo's history.
As for Snake... I don't know... I mean, my personal bias says that we should have 3rd party characters that still feel like Nintendo or had some strong connections to the big N, therefore stuff like Simon Belmont, PAC-MAN, Banjo & Kazooie, or Mega Man. Then again, his unique style makes him very iconic due to how distinct he looks compared to the rest of the Smash squad. But for the time being I'm going to say Sonic stays, Snake leaves.
If we wanted a 3rd party character that greatly clashes with the other Nintendo characters, I think that Cloud and/or Sephiroth do the job just right. Come to think of it, Sephiroth's inclusion would have worked fantastic even without Cloud, imo...
 

TheLastMaverickHunter

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I'd rather keep Snake in tbh. I could live with him being replaced, but if it's with someone like Mega Man or Cloud, they could end up running the risk of being cut next game.
 
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Louie G.

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I'd rather keep Snake in tbh. I could live with someone else getting in, but if it's someone like Mega Man or Cloud, they could end up running the risk of being cut next game.
Good point, although alternatively maybe we could vote to bring them back and only adding one third party newcomer in Smash 4 later on, compared to cutting one and gaining two. Just a different angle on it we could play around with, while paying mind to Smash’s finite resources and the toll of negotiating third parties.

But admittedly, it may just be easier to bring Snake (and Sonic) back anyway. I’m good with either approach. It does kinda take away from the more personalized approach but both of them were effectively special cases anyway.
 
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Pupp135

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As it looks like most people are open to or support Snake and Sonic, I’ll add them in. Also, I’ll allow the opportunity for a third third party fighter.

Job 14: Submit your three most wanted newcomers.

1. Ice Climbers
2. Pokemon Trainer
3. Ike

The first two have cool gimmicks, and Ike is a case of Fire Emblem indulgence more or less.

Job 15: Submit a list of 5 veterans for E3 2006.

Mr. Game & Watch
Mario
Luigi
Bowser
Princess Peach
Princess Daisy
Donkey Kong
Donkey Kong Jr.
Yoshi
Wario
Link
Princess Zelda
Samus Aaran
Marth
Celica
Captain Falcon
Black Shadow
Kirby
King Dedede
Fox
Falco
Ness
Pikachu
Meowth
Mewtwo
Pichu

I’ll go with the canon list as it feels very fitting in my opinion.

Mario
Link
Samus
Kirby
Pikachu
 
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Louie G.

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Job 14:
1. Little Mac (Punch-Out!!)
2. Pit (Kid Icarus)
3. Tom Nook (Animal Crossing)

Our greatest weakness during Melee was the lack of new series... outside of Game & Watch, and Donkey Kong (and Yoshi?). Brawl is the opportunity to mend this, so I'm tossing out some prospects. Two classic Nintendo characters in Little Mac and Pit, and one more contemporary addition in Tom Nook.

Little Mac and Pit are pretty self explanatory. And coincidentally kind of opposite to one another. One is promptly grounded, the other is more comfortable in the air. Pit was in Brawl already, so we know how that would work, and Little Mac is a traditional boxer. Maybe by Brawl there's an opportunity for some sort of Star Uppercut mechanic, since we're starting to edge toward some wacky gimmicks at this point, but nothing as crazy as KO Punch or anything. I think both of these would feel like welcome early inductees.

Animal Crossing will have had two games by this point, and famously we know Sakurai couldn't really think of a way to make it work. But uh... I dunno, let's say they tried extra hard in this universe and came up with something. Up to this point we haven't had too many characters who specialize in stage traps and item play so I think he'd stand out a good deal. I mean, I guess Snake exists now, but these two would obviously feel pretty different.

Honorable mention to Olimar, who I assume we'll vet in at some point anyway. And Meta Knight, who I initially had on my list before I decided to pivot toward all new series. Ultimately I'd rather focus on something different for now.

Job 15: Submit a list of 5 veterans for E3 2006.
I wonder, instead of going through the voting process should we just nominate five each and then tally up and see who shows up the most? I remember another one of these rounds where we voted on each other's proposals individually, but I think it'd just be more efficient to round it all up and go with the majority instead of listing off everyone's specific lineups... does that make sense? The last time just felt a little clumsy.

In any case, here are my nominees:
:ultmario::ultlink::ultkirby::ultsamus::ultbowser:
 
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Job #14: Submit three Brawl newcomers.
  1. Ganondorf (Zelda)
  2. Lucario (Pokemon)
  3. Ray MK III (Custom Robo)
At this rate, there's no reason NOT to include Ganondorf in Brawl. I don't think I need to elaborate further. What I should elaborate further on is how Lucario is ranked above Charizard. Truth be told, I think we have enough Gen 1 Pokemon in the game as is, even considering the cuts we'll have to do.

As for Ray MK III? I thought I should incorporate someone from the Gamecube days on top of another retro pick. Since Olimar is an easy sell, and Animal Crossing might catch some backlash, I feel as though Custom Robo might be a sleeper pick for the position. Plus, a new franchise is a new franchise.

Then again, this does bring to mind whether or not we'll be covering Assist Trophy rosters. Although the potential for a third non-Nintendo character in Brawl does raise some eyebrows for the better IMO.

Job #15: Submit five E3 2006 veterans.

I submit the following five: Mario, Link, Kirby, Pikachu, and Captain Falcon. That last one is a curveball, but I'd assume Sakurai would be well aware of the Falcon Punch being so iconic at this point.
 
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