Smash Ultimate Leak Discussion Thread

[Ramen Tengoku]

That all the other theories are dumb and we should just wait.

This! After the music theory crashed and burned, I currently don't believe any ongoing theory. I'm just gonna wait for Sakurai and see what happens...

 

[PLATINUM7]

Japan will have a words with you for Richter. Also Literally everyone and their mother who played Symphony of the night knows Richter dude. Bad comparison.



And if you say "it's just Japan" then I can tell you how practically next to no one played SMRPG in Europe and most of his following comes from THE SMASH COMMUNITY basically.

Like, it can be a Roy/Marth scenario but putting Geno as a DLC (if he's as DLC and not base game) In a region where he's literally a nobody beside the hardcore Europe smash community (so VERY small basically) and very few people who brought SMRPG on the wiiware

Geno have a LOT of chance, but using the "DUH Someone else is Obscure" argument is grasping at straws to hide a big Issue

Also once again You're right. He don't have to represent Square but like I said before it all comes down to Sakurai, sitting down with the Square Exec and thinking.
"Do I push the limit for another miraculous deal that will blow everyone's mind? And probably be well received everywhere?"
"Or do I take the obscure Characters in that Sea of Iconics Square-Enix Character as a love letters to the fan of my Series even if he's obvious?"


Both at valid points. All Square Rep have pros and cons. But Geno ALSO have his glaring issues NONETHELESS.
I will be Happy if he's in. Or if any Square-Enix Rep is in really. They're too great and Iconics of a company lmao.

Do you have a source for SMRPG not selling well on VC or is that just speculative?

Mario + VC + basically being a new game for PAL regions seems like a money making combo.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Japan will have a words with you for Richter. Also Literally everyone and their mother who played Symphony of the night knows Richter dude. Bad comparison.

Sakurai himself admitted that Richter would be unfamiliar to a lot of people. Keep in mind he is the only Ultimate newcomer he has made this kind of statement towards.

 

[Fatmanonice]

The SNES Classic was pretty successful, selling around 5 million units.

Case in point. The argument could easily be made but I don't think that is their line of thinking anyways. I don't think people saw Cloud in Smash and thought to themselves "ah yes, Cloud, my favorite Square Enix intellectual property. As an appreciative consumer, I will now make haste to my local video game monger to enthusiastically purchase Square Enix games and merchandise." I think most people were like "**** YEAH, CLOUD!" Same could be said about Bayonetta, since even a lot of her fans really don't define her as a SEGA character or see it as an important distinction.

 

[FalconFire93]

Case in point. The argument could easily be made but I don't think that is their line of thinking anyways. I don't think people saw Cloud in Smash and thought to themselves "ah yes, Cloud, my favorite Square Enix intellectual property. As an appreciative consumer, I will now make haste to my local video game monger to enthusiastically purchase Square Enix games and merchandise." I think most people were like "**** YEAH, CLOUD!" Same could be said about Bayonetta, since even a lot of her fans really don't define her as a SEGA character or see it as an important distinction.

To be honest, I was pretty much in the same boat with Cloud, only I was speechless at first, only to be really hyped minutes later

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I can't see this happening. DLC needs to SELL. That's why so many of the DLC last time was third party icons.

Ryu and Cloud were the only two third-party icons that were DLC. 2 out of 7 is not "so many."

 

[Gyrom8]

Remember when people were swearing that Sonic's head was in that cutscenes where Ganondorf is looking at multiple Screens and taking Order? Before the hedgehog reveal?

Probably the dumbest **** I heard yet that happened to get lucky and guess who was announced?

I'm secretly hoping that's what happens with Skull Kid. Chair theory turns out to be bull****, but he somehow gets in anyway. Maybe Sakurai could go full meta: at the end of Incineroar's wrestling-themed reveal trailer, where he's KO'd all the other fighters, Skull Kid appears and breaks a purple/yellow chair over his back.

 

[lightdrago]

Ryu and Cloud were the only two third-party icons that were DLC. 2 out of 7 is not "so many."

Three. Bayonetta is also third party.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm secretly hoping that's what happens with Skull Kid. Chair theory turns out to be bull****, but he somehow gets in anyway. Maybe Sakurai could go full meta: at the end of Incineroar's wrestling-themed reveal trailer, where he's KO'd all the other fighters, Skull Kid appears and breaks a purple/yellow chair over his back.

Incineroar will beat down Skull Kid’s assist with a chair in his trailer.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Three. Bayonetta is also third party.

Bayonetta isn't really an icon, though, hence the "third-party icon" part of my post.

 

[Nekoo]

Do you have a source for SMRPG not selling well on VC or is that just speculative?

Mario + VC + basically being a new game for PAL regions seems like a money making combo.

Oh, it's just speculative! It's mostly how the Wiiware was generally badly handled in general back then. But still I'm pretty sure my point mostly stand that a majority of Europe is totally in the dark about Geno or SMRPG In general.

However one good point for him is that the Mini was released with SMRPG. Even though I'm not sure how many "young and new" consumer got it or it's number In Europe.

Now that I think about it. It's maybe why I don't really get the Geno craze, being an European and growing up with mostly FF games since SMRPG was never here and I did it very late on the Nes Mini. (Thought I'll be honest I still don't get why he's that asked even after playing the game. He's okay, but in the story he didn't had any real impact )

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Alright, so far we got these guys for Nihilist theory:
@tehponycorn
@Shroob
@Noipoi
@Fenriraga
@PK-remling Fire
@Jgt044
@Jchrono95
Zinith (kinda, but not really)

We're always open whenever the rest of you want to transcend past your theorizing limits.
View attachment 166900

What’s the Nihilist theory?

 

[Gyrom8]

Incineroar will beat down Skull Kid’s assist with a chair in his trailer.

I'd be salty, but I almost kind of want to see it happen at the same time. Surely nothing can be as bad as Waluigi's humiliation ... right?

 

[Flyboy]

imagine if the internet was widespread before melee

As someone who was actually on the internet shortly after the release of Smash 64, all I really remember from that time is that people really wanted Geno in "Smash for Dolphin".

 

[Fatmanonice]

Richter's main staring role was a 1993 Japanese exclusive PC game up until 2007 when it was finally released elsewhere. He was also only playable in Symphony of the Night (1998) if you put in a cheat code. To add to this, Symphony of the Night's last rerelease was in 2012 in Europe despite being in 2007 for North America and 2010 for Japan. Meanwhile, Super Mario RPG had global VC releases in 2008 and 2016, was referenced in Smash 4 in 2015, and is part of the ongoing SNES Classic starting 2017, which as already stated, has sold millions around the world. Throw in the Smash Community and there's no comparison. Both games are beloved by Castlevania fans but, especially Rondo of Blood, are still considered cult classics and Richter by extension is very obscure.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Case in point. The argument could easily be made but I don't think that is their line of thinking anyways. I don't think people saw Cloud in Smash and thought to themselves "ah yes, Cloud, my favorite Square Enix intellectual property. As an appreciative consumer, I will now make haste to my local video game monger to enthusiastically purchase Square Enix games and merchandise." I think most people were like "**** YEAH, CLOUD!" Same could be said about Bayonetta, since even a lot of her fans really don't define her as a SEGA character or see it as an important distinction.

I mean, as someone who had never played FFVII (and still haven’t gotten around to beating it), seeing all the hype got me interested in the game, and I made a note to buy it as soon as I got a PS4.

Beyond Brawl getting me and many others to expand their horizons on Nintendo games (really only played Mario and Pokémon beforehand), many of the Smash 4 and Ultimate reveals got me to try out different games.

- Villager got me to pick up New Leaf.
- Shulk got me to pick up my unfinished copy of Xenoblade.
- Snake’s return in Ultimate got me to pick up a copy of the originals MGS (would’ve loved to actually buy it on the PS4 and given Konami my money, but they don’t do that so I got a used copy for my PS1).
- Simon and Richter gave me interested in Castlevania, and I’m going to pick up that Requiem collection for my PS4.
- Even just the idea of Skull Kid being a possibility got me to my second run of Majora’s Mask 3D.

Character’s being announced for Smash definitley get people interested in their games, even if they couldn’t have cared less beforehand.

How many people here knew what a Fire Emblem was before playing Smash?

 

[PLATINUM7]

Oh, it's just speculative! It's mostly how the Wiiware was generally badly handled in general back then. But still I'm pretty sure my point mostly stand that a majority of Europe is totally in the dark about Geno or SMRPG In general.

However one good point for him is that the Mini was released with SMRPG. Even though I'm not sure how many "young and new" consumer got it or it's number In Europe.

Now that I think about it. It's maybe why I don't really get the Geno craze, being an European and growing up with mostly FF games since SMRPG was never here and I did it very late on the Nes Mini. (Thought I'll be honest I still don't get why he's that asked even after playing the game. He's okay, but in the story he didn't had any real impact )

I'm Australian so didn't get the game until its Wii VC release. Didn't know at the time Geno was so popular. Was really confused when I saw people want him in Smash and not the actual good character (imo), Mallow.

Still, it's endearing to see his popularity continue and really, any SMRPG representation is good in my book.

 

[Nekoo]

Was really confused when I saw people want him in Smash and not the actual good character, Mallow.

You're a man of culture. And knows that I appreciate that.

 

[Zinith]

I'm Australian so didn't get the game until its Wii VC release. Didn't know at the time Geno was so popular. Was really confused when I saw people want him in Smash and not the actual good character (imo), Mallow.

Still, it's endearing to see his popularity continue and really, any SRPG representation is good in my book.

ANY SMRPG character?

 

[Robertman2]

As someone who was actually on the internet shortly after the release of Smash 64, all I really remember from that time is that people really wanted Geno in "Smash for Dolphin".

Ahahahahahaha why am I not surprised

 

[PLATINUM7]

ANY SMRPG character?

Yes, a Boshi trophy would be nice

 

[Jetsurge]

One argument I saw earlier against Geno is that he doesn't represent Square Enix well but, honestly, he really doesn't have to. Cloud's already in so Square Enix is already getting a slice of the proverbial pie. I think it's a common misconception that Sakurai puts on an accountant's visor and sits with an abbacus to determine exactly how much percentage second and third parties are owed based on their content. Even if he's paid DLC, it's pretty evident that Smash fans are willing to buy anyone just to have the full roster so the respective parties involved will still be getting their money either way because its more realistically a pool than anything else. "What about advertising?" I think people are looking too deeply into it, considering now that we actually have a third party character that blows well past Geno when it comes to obscurity, Richter, with rereleases only being rumors at the moment. Plus, if you still want to jump on that boat, there's the SNES Classic that has SMRPG on it, an argument that could technically be made for K. Rool and Simon too.

People don't understand how 3rd parties work. They don't see Smash as free advertising they just want to get paid for the rights to the ip. No one is telling Sakurai who he should add, he can add anyone as long as he gets the permission to by the ip owner.

 

[SvartWolf]

Nihilist theory?

Where in the heck do all these theories keep popping out from!?

Well, you can say that the Nihilist Theory came out from nothing.

*Roll drums*

 

[JustCallMeJon]

ANY SMRPG character?

Boshi alt would be a nice addition actually

 

[Nekoo]

People don't understand how 3rd parties work. They don't see Smash as free advertising they just want to get paid for the rights to the ip

There still a part of advertising that you want it or not it exist.
Nintendo not caring about Sonic until he appears? They might buy the game.
Same goes for Ryu
Cloud WHO BY INCREDIBLE LUCK GET A PS4-RERELEASE AND A REMAKE ANNOUNCED
Megaman
Castlevania Who BY LUCK GET A COMPILATION ANNOUNCED WITH RICHTER IN.


Third parties have a part of advertisement. Unconsciously or not. Any player can be a future new consumer.

They get in because Sakurai wants them, but saying that Smash doesn't make any advertising is also a lies.


Both are rights, neither are wrong

 

[Pyra]

. Was really confused when I saw people want him in Smash and not the actual good character (imo), Mallow.

We already have a Cloud in the game.

 

[Nekoo]

We already have a Cloud in the game.

Yeah I know. Ridley is playable now-

 

[Flyboy]

Ahahahahahaha why am I not surprised

It's really the only reason I still want him in - I was around ten or so and people were so stoked it makes me want to see their patience rewarded.

...Especially because MY Smash for Dolphin pick, Marina Liteyears, will never happen.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Yeah I know. Ridley is playable now-

And before him we had Pac-Man

We already have a Cloud in the game.

But I guess ToasterBrains already pointed that out

 

[Robertman2]

There still a part of advertising that you want it or not it exist.
Nintendo not caring about Sonic until he appears? They might buy the game.
Same goes for Ryu
Cloud WHO BY INCREDIBLE LUCK GET A PS4-RERELEASE AND A REMAKE ANNOUNCED
Megaman
Castlevania Who BY LUCK GET A COMPILATION ANNOUNCED WITH RICHTER IN.


Third parties have a part of advertisement. Unconsciously or not. Any player can be a future new consumer.

They get in because Sakurai wants them, but saying that Smash doesn't make any advertising is also a lies.


Both are rights, neither are wrong

lmao ffvii remake

It's really the only reason I still want him in - I was around ten or so and people were so stoked it makes me want to see their patience rewarded.

...Especially because MY Smash for Dolphin pick, Marina Liteyears, will never happen.

who

 

[JustCallMeJon]

We already have a Cloud in the game.

Ah yes, Cloud is my favorite character.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Ah yes, Cloud is my favorite character.
View attachment 166917

Everyone is here, even Randall.

 

[Jetsurge]

We already have a Cloud in the game.

We already have a frog in the game

 

[Deleted member]

One argument I saw earlier against Geno is that he doesn't represent Square Enix well but, honestly, he really doesn't have to. Cloud's already in so Square Enix is already getting a slice of the proverbial pie. I think it's a common misconception that Sakurai puts on an accountant's visor and sits with an abbacus to determine exactly how much percentage second and third parties are owed based on their content. Even if he's paid DLC, it's pretty evident that Smash fans are willing to buy anyone just to have the full roster so the respective parties involved will still be getting their money either way because its more realistically a pool than anything else. "What about advertising?" I think people are looking too deeply into it, considering now that we actually have a third party character that blows well past Geno when it comes to obscurity, Richter, with rereleases only being rumors at the moment. Plus, if you still want to jump on that boat, there's the SNES Classic that has SMRPG on it, an argument that could technically be made for K. Rool and Simon too.

>Richter
>Most popular Belmont
>Appears more than just one game
>First character one meets in Symphony of the Night aka the Super Metroid of Castlevania
>"Blows way past Geno in terms of obscurity"
>Appears in one Mario RPG game
>Not released in Europe originally
>Isn't even the main character of that one game

Just because people in the Smash fanbase didn't know about him doesn't make him obscure. If you were into Castlevania, you knew Richter, he just flew under everyone's radar because Simon is the big name and no one ever thought CV would get two characters.
A lot of people wouldn't even know about Geno if it wasn't for the Smash fanbase even if they were into Mario.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Most popular Belmont according to whom? He wasn't even playable in Castlevania Judgement and his last major cameo was an optional boss fight in Portrait of Ruin in 2006. Nevermind that Castlevania 3 was the game chosen for the Netflix series and Trevor's frequent cameos despite this regular assertion. All in all, this is a pretty poor hill to choose to die on given everything already said.

Add in: throw on top of this the fact that SMRPG sold roughly double the number of copies as Symphony of the Night despite not being sold in Europe and being released literally months before the N64's launch. Meanwhile the PS1 was one of the best selling consoles of all time and 1998 was one of its best years on record and even SotN's creators admit that it slipped under the radar with its initial release.

 

[TyrantLizardKing]

As a chocolate chip cooke connoisseur, I can assure you that we have an abundant amount of cookies. Top quality too.

Nihilist theory is also great because with it, you can believe whatever the **** you want. You don't need evidence. Who needs that? Just believe what you want to believe and disregard all of the false profits.

Guests, I implore you to disregard these false profits. Box theory, Blog theory, Music theory, Chair theory, all are built on circumstantial data that is impossible to prove. Do not believe in their lies. Instead, believe in your own truth, and you shall not be disappointed.

I'll count it.
List of people supporting Nihilist theory:
@tehponycorn
@Shroob
Zinith (kinda, but not really)

We've got 2.5. Our numbers are slowly growing. Get on while we're on the ground.

I'd like to hop on this train as well please.

 

[Deleted member]

We already have a frog in the game

But we don't have THE Frog

Most popular Belmont according to whom? He wasn't even playable in Castlevania Judgement and his last major cameo was an optional boss fight in Portrait of Ruin in 2006. Nevermind that Castlevania 3 was the game chosen for the Netflix series and Trevor's frequent cameos despite this regular assertion. All in all, this is a pretty poor hill to choose to die on given everything already said.

By literally everyone from the CV community??? All the reactions to him post-Direct were "yeah, that makes sense, he's the most popular Belmont after all". The only characters that can rival him in popularity seem to be Soma and Alucard and those couldn't be Simon Echoes.

And the Netflix series argument is a terrible falacy, they chose 3 because it's Dracula's first chronological appearance and its setup works well for a narrative adaptation with a group of three main characters, not because of Trevor.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

The idea that the Inklings were never a popular community choice in 2015 is a myth that needs to be dispelled.

I’m more impressed with how Viridi and Knuckles were more requested than Chrom and Tails

 

[ChocolatGelgato]

so what happened to that one 2 newcomer 2 echo + geno is dlc guy that seemed to explode and die ultra quickly.

Also Knuckles may possibly have had his popularity at the time boosted by the whole project M thing with Knuckles being planned for development there.

 

[iruchii]

I’m more impressed with how Viridi and Knuckles were more requested than Chrom and Tails

Really? I'm surprised Chrom has so many fans, I've always thought him boring personality-wise, not to mention his visual characteristics are already covered by other Fire Emblem characters. Viridi sounds infinitely more interesting as a fighter, and also fills a design hole in the Smash roster (women of small stature). Knuckles also seems better suited for fighting than Tails in my opinion, and I'd say Sakurai (or his team) agrees with me seeing as one is an Assist Trophy and the other isn't!