Smash Ultimate general series discussion: Part one: Super Mario (with polls)

[Mogisthelioma]

So basically I want to make a twelve-part series of threads fr discussion on all of the current IP's in Smash Ultimate that are represented with more than one fighter (Mario, DK, Zelda, Metroid, Kirby, Star Fox, Pokemon, Earthbound, Fire Emblem, Kid Icarus, Animal Crossing, Castlevania).

If threads like this one already exist please close it. I would be a little embarrassed but happy to know they already exist. But after searching I couldn't find threads that talked about a series more than its roster.

These threads are going to be designed to discuss roster opinions, discussion and wishes on stages and items, newcomer wishes, music wishes, etc. Basically this thread is designed for all things Super Mario in Smash.
And honestly there's no better way to start!

Of course everyone has their own opinions on Super Mario. Being the series with (objectively, since Pokemon Trainer is considered one fighter) the most fighters Mario has cemented himself as the king of Nintendo, and video games as a whole. There is a near limitless pool of characters to wish for in Smash, items to utilize, soundtracks, etc.

To start off the discussion, let's begin with objectively the most controversial subject in regards to Mario: Do you think that Super Mario is over represented? That it has too many fighters? Or do you think it's fighter count is good? Do you want more or less Super Mario fighters? If you could rearrange the fighters of the Super Mario roster, would you? Who would you change?

I'm going to post more discussion questions as conversation continues.

 

[Crystanium]

I think the Mario series is over-represented, and even ignoring Donkey Kong & Co., there are still way more than any other of a particular series. Ten, to be exact. I included Yoshi and Wario. Throw them out and you still have eight. No matter how much one might want to say such and such character isn't a Mario character, there are too many. And if you really want to come right down to it, there are more characters by Shigeru Miyamoto in Super Smash Bros. than there are by any other creator, including Masahiro Sakurai.

I understand that the Mario series is popular, but one thing I've noticed about the Super Smash Bros. series is that it's focused on representing unknown or obscure characters. Or that's what it might have been aiming for originally. People heard about Mario, but not many could say they heard about Mr. Game & Watch. What would Fire Emblem be without representation outside of Japan? What about the Mother series? Now it seems the Super Smash Bros. philosophy went from revealing the obscure to now catering to popularity.

 

[Deleted member]

Hmm, tricky question. I do think Mario has a lot of fighters, but at the same time I'm not really angered by it. It is Nintendo's King IP so it makes sense that Mario would have a lot of fighters in Smash.

Mogisthelioma How long do intend of discussion on Mario to last before you switch franchises?

 

[Quillion]

I understand that the Mario series is popular, but one thing I've noticed about the Super Smash Bros. series is that it's focused on representing unknown or obscure characters. Or that's what it might have been aiming for originally. People heard about Mario, but not many could say they heard about Mr. Game & Watch. What would Fire Emblem be without representation outside of Japan? What about the Mother series? Now it seems the Super Smash Bros. philosophy went from revealing the obscure to now catering to popularity.

What obscure stuff is left to represent?

 

[Crystanium]

What obscure stuff is left to represent?

I'm not sure. It might be currently obscure.

 

[Arthur97]

Mario is fine. Yes, it has a lot, but it deserves a lot.

 

[Luigifan18]

What obscure stuff is left to represent?

Panel de Pon.

 

[Quillion]

I'm not sure. It might be currently obscure.

Then do your research and find something. I can at least think of Golden Sun and Advance Wars, but the thing about the more obscure characters on Smash's staple roster is that they are obscure console icons. Obscure handheld icons will not work, though mainstream handheld icons are fine.

Panel de Pon.

Not sure how I feel about a franchise that has long shed its own identity, especially since it arguably didn't need it in the first place.

 

[Luigifan18]

Not sure how I feel about a franchise that has long shed its own identity, especially since it arguably didn't need it in the first place.

Aaaaaaaaand this is where N. Onymous would be going berserk if he saw this thread.

 

[SonicMario]

Put any form of Toad (Regular, Captain, Alagold/Yellow Toad, Buckenberry/Blue Toad, Toadette, etc.) in

And then the Mario series would be complete

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

As long as they moderate how many get added each game and make it balance with other franchises; I'm fine with seeing more Mario. Mario has a very fun cast to work with.

 

[FirestormNeos]

There's only one Mario newcomer I'd care about, and there's not a Snorunt's chance in Hell of them getting into a Smash game any time soon.

Characters like Toad (Toadette, Captain Toad, Etc.), Waluigi, King Boo or Pauline I'd all be alright with. I'd be a bit bummed about Geno being confirmed, but I'll "get over it" like I did with Little Mac.

 

[Frizz]

No, I wouldn't say so. They've got almost all of the major Super Mario characters in the game (), and they've got as a bonus. The only ones they're honestly missing at this point are Toad and Waluigi. Other than those two, I don't see the need for any other Super Mario character to join as a fighter.

 

[Dee Dude]

Nope, Toad and Waluigi are the last remaining core cast members still not playable.

After they get in, I’ll be satisfied with the Mario line-up and ask for no more. Anyone else will be a bonus.

 

[Room100]

I voted "no" but really my answer in regards to any series is "whatever works best". If a character is meant to get into Smash, they'll get in especially with Ultimate's expected lifespan now. As long as its characters people want, I can't complain. I might not care about FE and be confused with the number of reps from it, but it's clearly a big franchise so go off Sakurai.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Hmm, tricky question. I do think Mario has a lot of fighters, but at the same time I'm not really angered by it. It is Nintendo's King IP so it makes sense that Mario would have a lot of fighters in Smash.

Mogisthelioma How long do intend of discussion on Mario to last before you switch franchises?

I'm going to keep this thread up, then make new ones in a few days.

 

[Frizz]

I'm going to keep this thread up, then make new ones in a few days.

Would you mind tagging me in them? I enjoy these types of threads.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Would you mind tagging me in them? I enjoy these types of threads.

Np. I'll be posting questions in the thread and editing the polls with them.

Actually for that mater I'll be tagging anyone who wants me to when I make the next thread (which will be DK, sometime between tomorrow and Thursday depending on how much time I have).

 

[Gothitelle]

What obscure stuff is left to represent?

Well, without going into third parties, I can think of:

• Satellaview
• Panel De Pon
• Rhythm Heaven
• Mach Rider
• Balloon Fight
• Joy Mech Fight
• Famicom Detective Club
• Famicom Disk System
• Clu Clu Land
• Advance Wars
• Kung Fu
• Adventures Of Lolo
• Sin And Punishment
• Excitebike
• Sutte Hakkun
• Starfy
• Golden Sun
• Yuyuki

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I'm going to begin the next discussion with another controversial question:

If Waluigi was in Ultimate, would you feel like he represented the Mario spin-offs better than members of the current cast?

 

[HypnoMaster372]

What obscure stuff is left to represent?

The thing that begun Nintendo life: Hanafuda cards.



These playing cards were what Nintendo originally did back at the company founding in 1889 & was the main focus of the company before they proceeded to enter the toy market in the 1960s, & then developed into the video game company we know today in the 1970s. However, despite Nintendo evolution over the years, they have not forgotten their legacy & still produce Hanafuda cards to this day, aheit in smaller quantity than they originally did.

Now if you want to know how can Hanafuda cards can be & works as a playable character in Smash Bros, then I recommend checking out the Hanafuda Character Thread.

 

[WaddleMatt]

I'm going to begin the next discussion with another controversial question:

If Waluigi was in Ultimate, would you feel like he represented the Mario spin-offs better than members of the current cast?

Yes, it is where he originated and what he is most known from.

 

[Quillion]

I'm going to begin the next discussion with another controversial question:

If Waluigi was in Ultimate, would you feel like he represented the Mario spin-offs better than members of the current cast?

Well absolutely, since Waluigi is exclusively a spinoff character.

I just question why spinoff characters are worth representing to begin with. I can at least support Captain Toad on him having a big main series presence (Galaxy, Galaxy 2, 3D World, Odyssey), but I can't see any value in the spinoff characters.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I would personally take out Dr.Mario and replace him with Toad, giving this new D Air of Dr.Mario to Mario and make the Down B Mario Tornado yet again. It is a franchise that has ample fighters now, and it actually feels a little bloated with Daisy and all those Koopalings. It doesn't NEED a new character perse, but if there's one that stands out, it's Toad, or Captain Toad, whichever one floats your boat.

 

[Quillion]

I would personally take out Dr.Mario and replace him with Toad, giving this new D Air of Dr.Mario to Mario and make the Down B Mario Tornado yet again. It is a franchise that has ample fighters now, and it actually feels a little bloated with Daisy and all those Koopalings. It doesn't NEED a new character perse, but if there's one that stands out, it's Toad, or Captain Toad, whichever one floats your boat.

It's certainly hilarious that the Goomba Stomp, which is Mario's signature move, is on the Mario that never uses it in canon.

 

[Blackwolf666]

I’d say Mario needs more newcomers but none that represent the main series. Example: Waluigi to represent Mario sports and party games. I know there are some out there that don’t want him to pull moves from those games if he get in but... that’s both where he first appeared in and where he has stayed throughout his existence...

 

[Diddy Kong]

It's certainly hilarious that the Goomba Stomp, which is Mario's signature move, is on the Mario that never uses it in canon.

So ironic in fact that it pisses me off...

 

[Dee Dude]

It's certainly hilarious that the Goomba Stomp, which is Mario's signature move, is on the Mario that never uses it in canon.

So ironic in fact that it pisses me off...

Well there is footstooling if you wanna be technical.

 

[Gyrom8]

Beat me to it - was thinking of doing a similar thread like this recently re: series representation

If you don't mind, I'd rather dump all my thoughts in a massive wall of text, though I'll try and address the discussion questions as I go. Also, by Mario, I assume we're going by how Smash defines Mario? I.e. not Wario or Yoshi stuff?

is a series that certainly has a lot of representation in Smash. And that makes sense. It's a hugely popular and iconic series, with Mario essentially being the Mickey Mouse of video games. Roster-wise, Mario is well represented. You have the core characters (,,,) and then two characters who've frequently appeared in more recent games (,). Bower Jr. doubles up by representing the Koopalings, who've been in so many Mario games as of late to the point of over saturation. You also have two clones (,) whose value to the wider series is questionable, but I'll get onto them later.

So is Mario over-represented, roster wise? I think the core four, Rosalina + Bowser Jr. all make sense as inclusions: nobody would complain if the series was repped by only six characters. However, the clones do feel kind of superfluous. Dr. Mario has little importance to the wider series and while Daisy could be thought to represent the spin-off games, she doesn't really: she's just in because she's easy echo material. I will defend the Koopalings though, as they're essentially a free bonus, requiring even less time to create than Doc or Daisy.

Having said all this, there are areas of the Mario series that aren't represented by fighters. While Daisy isn't currently much of a spin-off rep, if we de-echoed her and added in moves reflecting Mario Party and Mario Kart, she'd be filling a gap in representation. If these changes were made, Waluigi would be superfluous if he were ever added. Both Daisy and Waluigi are the go-to spin-off characters (perhaps Waluigi is a bit more, as he's never been in a mainline game), so we wouldn't need both: though Waluigi, if in, would be down to fan demand alone and not because Sakurai thought he was representing part of the Mario series.

There's also no current fighter to represent the Mario RPGs. The most popular request is Geno, though to be honest, he doesn't represent the RPGs all that well: he was in one game that's over 20 years old. He would also unlikely be included under the Mario label if he got in due to copyright shenanigans and the like. There's nothing wrong with wanting Geno in, but if you're just looking for a character to rep the RPGs, Paper Mario or even Fawful would make much more sense as choices. While I'm not expecting another Mario character (save technically Geno) in the base game, Paper Mario would be my top pick to complete the Mario roster (though, much more importantly, he'd be really fun to play as).

The Mario characters we have now, minus Doc, plus a spin-off focused Daisy and an RPG would collectively represent Mario perfectly. Any additional characters would feel like we were starting to scrape the barrel. There is one exception, though. The only core Mario character not represented as a playable fighter is Toad, though he is part of Peach and Daisy's movesets. Toad is a weird one, as he's both a generic race but also an individual character. While including him would fill in a possible missing gap in Mario representation, it's unclear whether Sakurai should go with him or Captain Toad. Regular Toad has a longer history, but Captain Toad is more relevant today. Whichever one we got, though, the Mario roster would be well and true complete ... for now.

What about other aspects of Mario representation? It's not all about the roster, after all. Stage wise, Mario has a huge number of levels to pick from. I don't think anyone would say that Mario is over-represented in this regard, as people tend not to make the same complaints re: representation about stages as they do about the roster. Again, however, I feel like there are a few gaps. I'm surprised we have no proper Bowser's Castle stage (only a third of one), no stage representing Mario party and nothing to represent the Mario sports games (I count Mario Kart separately). Instead we have a load of Mushroom Kingdom stages that feel a little superfluous. I also find it a real shame that Rainbow Road isn't coming back, but we have two generic circuit tracks instead. It would definitely be my number one pick for returning stage DLC. Otherwise though, Mario has most of its base covers in terms of stages.

There's less to say about other aspects: item and assist-wise, Mario has plenty and the series will probably get multiple bosses in Spirits Mode. The only other thing left to mention is music. This is kind of a mixed bag. There's certainly a lot of tracks, though a lot of it feels like treading the same ground over and over again: like the multiple versions of the main theme or the fortress boss music. There's also barely any music from Paper Mario, which is a great shame, as the Rogueport remix was so, so good.

These complaints are minor in the bigger scheme of things, though. Overall, Mario's been given a lot of attention in Smash. I'm struggling to say it's been overindulged, as the series is big enough to merit it. There are some superfluous aspects to it, however, and also some things that could be added. To sum up (tl;dr):
+ It has plenty of representation in almost all aspects
+ (Almost) all the main characters are here
+ Didn't say this earlier, but the movesets feel fairly faithful to the fighters
- Some aspects are underrepresented (RPGs, spin-offs)
- Some characters are unecessary (Dr. Mario, non-spin off Daisy)
- Toad is a possible gap in the roster
Overall, I give Mario's representation 8.5/10 (the negatives are honestly more nit-picks)

 

[Q-Long]

I always root for the underdog. Nintendo has dozens of franchises that have little to no representation. Nintendo's greatest power is the sheer amount of original franchises they have, just take a look: https://mynintendonews.com/2014/05/30/heres-a-look-at-nintendos-family-tree-infographic/

So if Mario is to get more stuff in Smash, then it should be spent on stuff from the Mario world that isn't really representated very well instead of having Dark Goomba playable:

Viruses: Yes, Doctor Mario is in the game, but I have always wanted these critters to have larger roles within the Marioverse itself. Make them enemies! Also make them playable in Mario Kart!

Mario RPGs: Obviously Paper Mario has a stage now, but adding a playable character like PM or Geno would be cool. Or at least a stage. A Mario and Luigi stage would be awesome.

Other Mario Spinoffs: There is a Mario Kart stage and it represents them as a whole, but Mario Party, Tennis, Hoops, and Strikers could use some content. At least from the music side of things.

 

[thirsty-pocket]

As the face of Nintendo, I don't think Mario could ever have too many characters in Smash Bros, unless they start doing really stupid things like they do with the actual Mario Spinoffs and start making Bowser's mooks playable, or do ridiculous things like "Cat Mario" or "Pink Gold Peach" or have baby versions of characters that weren't even in a Yoshi's Island game.

Here's a break down of how I feel about Mario characters, and how they should be in Smash Bros.

The only truly essential Mario characters are Mario, Bowser, and Peach, period. I'm sorry, but yes, you can have a GREAT Mario game without Luigi. We'll call them the A listers.

Luigi Toad and Yoshi ( if we're counting him as Mario ) would be the B listers. I think Both A and B listers should absolutely be playable... so obviously, I have an issue with Toad being relegated to Peach's Moveset. I think he should have been playable as early as Brawl. I'll take a little solice in him fighting more actively in Peach's moveset instead of being a flailing meat shield, but I still think that's not a good use for the character.

Donkey Kong and Wario are in a strange place between B and C listers. They have their own franchises now, and have shared games with Mario, but are almost never allowed to cross over into the Mario series proper unless it's a cameo of a static image or a sprite ( I'm still salty that DK was only a sprite in Mario Odyssey but Pauline got a full 3D appearance... ) or a subtle reference. They shouldn't be playable because of their status as Mario characters but absolutely should be playable because of their own franchises.

Then you have the actual C listers. They're important to the main series Mario games in some way, and are regulars, but don't quite have the superstar status of the others above this paragraphs. You got Bowser Junior and the Koopalings, Rosalina, You could probably call Kamek a C-list character. And it's a bito f a stretch but you could also say Baby Mario. These characters aren't required to be playable at all, but would be nice to have. ( though I don't really want to see any Baby characters in Smash. )

And here we have the D listers... The might have had one appearance in a main Mario series game, but have since become spinoff only, or maybe they were always spinoff only, but they have very high attendence in those spinoffs, enough so that they'd probably appear in a lot of merchandise. Here, we have Daisy, Waluigi, Birdo, Baby Luigi, Toadette... i'm predicting that Pauline is going to end up being in this category. I'd put Petey Piranha, Professor E. Gadd and King Boo here but not for the reasons at the beginning of the paragraph. D listers don't really have any good reason to be playable, but they don't have very strong reasons against them either and might make a lot of people happy if they were included.

And here are the the E listers. Characters that appeared in one or two games a long time ago, but fail to even make an appearance in the spinoffs, much less appear in the main series again. And you're probably never going to see them on any merchandise. These are characters like Tatanga, Wart, Donkey Kong Junior, Wanda, Foreman Spike, Stanley the Bugman, Donkey Kong Junior, And yes, even Geno, Fawful and every other RPG character here... Before you get mad, listen to weather or not I think they should be playable. The answer? Yeah actually I think some of these guys should be playable. But not a lot of them. Mario's a pretty huge series with many, many branches, and a long complex history. I don't think you'd do the series justice just to represent the most up-to-date characters with near perfect attendence. There should be at least two characters from this tier playable imo.

I don't even think characters in the F lister tier should even have the possibility of being playable acknowledged... but just for fun, let me list the type of character I would put in this category. First and foremost, the mooks. A regular enemy without an identity of it's own. Then alternate versions of characters that are already playable. No Pink Gold Peach. No Metal Mario. No Vacuum Luigi. Dr. Mario? He should have just been an alt. And I'm not going to win any friends by saying this, but I feel this way about Paper Mario. And no Peachette either. Then we have NPCs that nobody really cares about. Honey Queen, any of the Kings from Mario 3, the Penguins from Mario 64, any of the original characters made for Mario Party. Sprixies, You're not going to see anyone cheering for these characters ( besides Paper Mario that is)... But they're all prime material for assist trophies imo. I do think a Goomba would be a funny joke character, especially if it was ironically a high tier character, but that should never happen until they scrape the bottom of the barrel from all the paragraphs up above this one.

Can we possibly make a tier lower than this? Why yes. We can. Say hello to the G listeres. What could possibly be in the G list category? How about characteres that never even appeared in a Mario game? Oogtar the caveman. Friendly Floyd. Lena. Anthony Scapelli. Big Bertha. Prince Haru. Ironically... I'd LOVE to see them as standard trophies. It kinda pains me to see Nintendo act like none of these things ever happen instead of embracing their campy history.

...We done here?
Oh, no. The lowest tier imaginable, is fan creations... you know where I'm going with this one. Bowsette. NEVER. EVER.

And with that i'm officially done.

 

[Quillion]

Can someone give me a good reason as to why spinoff characters should be in Smash?

 

[thirsty-pocket]

Can someone give me a good reason as to why spinoff characters should be in Smash?

I really and truly do not care about Mario Spinoffs, Mario is my oldest obsession, and still one of my strongest obsessions to this day, but I'll never buy a sports game or a mini game compilation just because you paste Mario on it.

That being said... the Mario spinoffs outnumber the "main series" at this point and you'd be a fool to say they're not important to the history of the franchise and deserve no representation... Granted, that doesn't mean they HAVE to be playable since we could just get items and stages. But the spinoffs have thousands of fan too, so there's no reason not to throw them a bone... they should just choose those bones very carefully.

 

[Gyrom8]

Can someone give me a good reason as to why spinoff characters should be in Smash?

Unless I'm forgetting something, Mario's the only series in Smash with substantial spin-off material. Yeah, you've got one-off stuff like Hyrule Warriors or Donkey Konga, but Mario is the only series I can think of where the spin-offs are arguably more popular than the main games themselves. I mean, more people have probably played a Mario Kart game than a mainline 2d platformer (the fact that Stormy Daniels referred to you-know-what as 'the mushroom character in Mario Kart' is telling...) because of its multiplayer nature.

Having said all of this, I don't think spin-off material needs to translate to playable fighters - certainly not for most series. But for Mario, I feel like an RPG rep would be okay, especially if they're in multiple games. Likewise, Daisy's inclusion would arguably be better if it was more based off spin-off material (though that had to be the case, she probably wouldn't have been included in the first place).

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Honestly I say the main Mario series deserves to have more reps (I mean come on...it’s Mario...8 ain’t enough...we need 10 or more characters for the future like Waluigi, Birdo, Captain Toad/Toadette, Fawful, Kamek, Geno, the list can go on and on)

I really and truly do not care about Mario Spinoffs, Mario is my oldest obsession, and still one of my strongest obsessions to this day, but I'll never buy a sports game or a mini game compilation just because you paste Mario on it.

I’m hoping you’re not including Mario Kart when it comes to sports games (those games are the best spinoff games)

 

[thirsty-pocket]

I’m hoping you’re not including Mario Kart when it comes to sports games (those games are the best spinoff games)

I like Mario Kart just fine actually, but I usually don't buy them. Instead, my friends usually end up buying them and I end up playing them when we get together for a game night.
I'd buy a new Diddy Kong Racing day 1 though.

 

[Luigifan18]

I like Mario Kart just fine actually, but I usually don't buy them. Instead, my friends usually end up buying them and I end up playing them when we get together for a game night.
I'd buy a new Diddy Kong Racing day 1 though.

I would also love a new Diddy Kong Racing, especially if they bring Pipsy back. <3

 

[Mogisthelioma]

In my personal and very humble opinion, I would not be opposed to getting another Mario newcomer, as long as we get enough newcomers from other series first.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I just want to know, would tomorrow, Wednesday, or Thursday (I'm in Eastern Standard Time) be a good day to make thread #2 (DK)?

 

[Mariomaniac45213]

I say the Mario series isn't "fully complete" yet IMO. Once they add Captain Toad with Toadette as an alt as well as Waluigi the series isn't truly complete. Even Paper Mario a character I support isn't "necessary" the fact that Toad (any version though I prefer Captain) isn't in Smash yet but Daisy and Rosalina are...is just sad...