Smash Ultimate general series discussion: Part one: Super Mario (with polls)

[TMNTSSB4]

I like Mario Kart just fine actually, but I usually don't buy them. Instead, my friends usually end up buying them and I end up playing them when we get together for a game night.
I'd buy a new Diddy Kong Racing day 1 though.

Diddy King Racing might take awhile longer to get a sequel (yet has a much better chance than F-Zero)

 

[Quillion]

I really and truly do not care about Mario Spinoffs, Mario is my oldest obsession, and still one of my strongest obsessions to this day, but I'll never buy a sports game or a mini game compilation just because you paste Mario on it.

That being said... the Mario spinoffs outnumber the "main series" at this point and you'd be a fool to say they're not important to the history of the franchise and deserve no representation... Granted, that doesn't mean they HAVE to be playable since we could just get items and stages. But the spinoffs have thousands of fan too, so there's no reason not to throw them a bone... they should just choose those bones very carefully.

Unless I'm forgetting something, Mario's the only series in Smash with substantial spin-off material. Yeah, you've got one-off stuff like Hyrule Warriors or Donkey Konga, but Mario is the only series I can think of where the spin-offs are arguably more popular than the main games themselves. I mean, more people have probably played a Mario Kart game than a mainline 2d platformer (the fact that Stormy Daniels referred to you-know-what as 'the mushroom character in Mario Kart' is telling...) because of its multiplayer nature.

Having said all of this, I don't think spin-off material needs to translate to playable fighters - certainly not for most series. But for Mario, I feel like an RPG rep would be okay, especially if they're in multiple games. Likewise, Daisy's inclusion would arguably be better if it was more based off spin-off material (though that had to be the case, she probably wouldn't have been included in the first place).

The Assist Trophies can cover spinoff material then. The main Mario cast easily represents both their main series and spinoffs in equal measure.

I say the Mario series isn't "fully complete" yet IMO. Once they add Captain Toad with Toadette as an alt as well as Waluigi the series isn't truly complete. Even Paper Mario a character I support isn't "necessary" the fact that Toad (any version though I prefer Captain) isn't in Smash yet but Daisy and Rosalina are...is just sad...

I think Captain Toad by himself would be enough for now.

 

[thirsty-pocket]

I'm going to begin the next discussion with another controversial question:

If Waluigi was in Ultimate, would you feel like he represented the Mario spin-offs better than members of the current cast?

For sure. The spinoffs in Smash are only represented in the core cast by Peach's forward smash, that's it. I assume Waluigi would use lots of sports equipment and Mario Party items, and possibly even Mario Kart power ups in his moveset.

 

[Arthur97]

As the face of Nintendo, I don't think Mario could ever have too many characters in Smash Bros, unless they start doing really stupid things like they do with the actual Mario Spinoffs and start making Bowser's mooks playable, or do ridiculous things like "Cat Mario" or "Pink Gold Peach" or have baby versions of characters that weren't even in a Yoshi's Island game.

Here's a break down of how I feel about Mario characters, and how they should be in Smash Bros.

The only truly essential Mario characters are Mario, Bowser, and Peach, period. I'm sorry, but yes, you can have a GREAT Mario game without Luigi. We'll call them the A listers.

Luigi Toad and Yoshi ( if we're counting him as Mario ) would be the B listers. I think Both A and B listers should absolutely be playable... so obviously, I have an issue with Toad being relegated to Peach's Moveset. I think he should have been playable as early as Brawl. I'll take a little solice in him fighting more actively in Peach's moveset instead of being a flailing meat shield, but I still think that's not a good use for the character.

Donkey Kong and Wario are in a strange place between B and C listers. They have their own franchises now, and have shared games with Mario, but are almost never allowed to cross over into the Mario series proper unless it's a cameo of a static image or a sprite ( I'm still salty that DK was only a sprite in Mario Odyssey but Pauline got a full 3D appearance... ) or a subtle reference. They shouldn't be playable because of their status as Mario characters but absolutely should be playable because of their own franchises.

Then you have the actual C listers. They're important to the main series Mario games in some way, and are regulars, but don't quite have the superstar status of the others above this paragraphs. You got Bowser Junior and the Koopalings, Rosalina, You could probably call Kamek a C-list character. And it's a bito f a stretch but you could also say Baby Mario. These characters aren't required to be playable at all, but would be nice to have. ( though I don't really want to see any Baby characters in Smash. )

And here we have the D listers... The might have had one appearance in a main Mario series game, but have since become spinoff only, or maybe they were always spinoff only, but they have very high attendence in those spinoffs, enough so that they'd probably appear in a lot of merchandise. Here, we have Daisy, Waluigi, Birdo, Baby Luigi, Toadette... i'm predicting that Pauline is going to end up being in this category. I'd put Petey Piranha, Professor E. Gadd and King Boo here but not for the reasons at the beginning of the paragraph. D listers don't really have any good reason to be playable, but they don't have very strong reasons against them either and might make a lot of people happy if they were included.

And here are the the E listers. Characters that appeared in one or two games a long time ago, but fail to even make an appearance in the spinoffs, much less appear in the main series again. And you're probably never going to see them on any merchandise. These are characters like Tatanga, Wart, Donkey Kong Junior, Wanda, Foreman Spike, Stanley the Bugman, Donkey Kong Junior, And yes, even Geno, Fawful and every other RPG character here... Before you get mad, listen to weather or not I think they should be playable. The answer? Yeah actually I think some of these guys should be playable. But not a lot of them. Mario's a pretty huge series with many, many branches, and a long complex history. I don't think you'd do the series justice just to represent the most up-to-date characters with near perfect attendence. There should be at least two characters from this tier playable imo.

I don't even think characters in the F lister tier should even have the possibility of being playable acknowledged... but just for fun, let me list the type of character I would put in this category. First and foremost, the mooks. A regular enemy without an identity of it's own. Then alternate versions of characters that are already playable. No Pink Gold Peach. No Metal Mario. No Vacuum Luigi. Dr. Mario? He should have just been an alt. And I'm not going to win any friends by saying this, but I feel this way about Paper Mario. And no Peachette either. Then we have NPCs that nobody really cares about. Honey Queen, any of the Kings from Mario 3, the Penguins from Mario 64, any of the original characters made for Mario Party. Sprixies, You're not going to see anyone cheering for these characters ( besides Paper Mario that is)... But they're all prime material for assist trophies imo. I do think a Goomba would be a funny joke character, especially if it was ironically a high tier character, but that should never happen until they scrape the bottom of the barrel from all the paragraphs up above this one.

Can we possibly make a tier lower than this? Why yes. We can. Say hello to the G listeres. What could possibly be in the G list category? How about characteres that never even appeared in a Mario game? Oogtar the caveman. Friendly Floyd. Lena. Anthony Scapelli. Big Bertha. Prince Haru. Ironically... I'd LOVE to see them as standard trophies. It kinda pains me to see Nintendo act like none of these things ever happen instead of embracing their campy history.

...We done here?
Oh, no. The lowest tier imaginable, is fan creations... you know where I'm going with this one. Bowsette. NEVER. EVER.

And with that i'm officially done.

If we're being technical, does a Mario game really need anyone other than Mario? Super Mario Land 1 & 2 were good games (given their limitations) and neither Peach nor Bowser were in them. I may also argue that Luigi should be in before either Peach or Bowser (as he was).

 

[keleyeemoh]

I'd still like to see Waluigi, Captain Toad, Geno, and maybe Paper Mario. After those, I can't think of anyone else to add that wouldn't seem bottom of the barrel.

 

[thirsty-pocket]

If we're being technical, does a Mario game really need anyone other than Mario? Super Mario Land 1 & 2 were good games (given their limitations) and neither Peach nor Bowser were in them. I may also argue that Luigi should be in before either Peach or Bowser (as he was).

You know, I was reposting my comment elsewhere moments ago and then that exact thought dawned on me. But I stand by my ranking, as the games that lack Peach and Bowser are usually special occasions from the early years, and we're not likely to see it happen again for some time, especially in the main series.
I also stand by Luigi being a B lister, but I acknowledge the opinion being unpopular.

 

[Arthur97]

You know, I was reposting my comment elsewhere moments ago and then that exact thought dawned on me. But I stand by my ranking, as the games that lack Peach and Bowser are usually special occasions from the early years, and we're not likely to see it happen again for some time, especially in the main series.
I also stand by Luigi being a B lister, but I acknowledge the opinion being unpopular.

Luigi may not be in every game, but he's the player 2 icon. Though, I could see how one less nostalgic than myself might rank him lower, but to me, he's player 2 to the king of gaming and that's pretty impressive.

 

[Jyl]

Mario, as the number one Nintendo series, deserves the high number of reps it has now.
That doesn't mean I agree with the choice of characters, I'll never agree with Rosalina's addition but that's a story for another time.
I agree with some of the others here that there are many different underrated Nintendo series that deserves representation but I'm not so sure having more Mario reps=less rep for other series. That's a limited way of thinking things.

 

[Squirtle/Mario guy]

No franchise is over represented in my opinion, though we'll never see an oversaturation of Kirby characters

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Discussion question day 3: If they made Dr. Mario an echo fighter of Mario, would you be okay with a similar moveset from Doc?

Oh and sometime this afternoon I'll be making part 2 for DK, if you want me to tag you just let me know!

 

[Manonymous]

For me, the Super Mario franchise has so many interesting character with potential moveset that I don't see why people can complain. I know they are a lot, but hey, everyone is somehow popular and unique (except Dr. Mario. If I could, I would replace him by Paper Mario, Dixie Kong or Pauline but hey, I have nothing against him) ! So for me, it's a A-okay to add more Mario characters, as long they are cool or unique. Hell, if they made Stanley (from DK3) playable with his weapon, I would play as him just for trolling people who wanted Geno !

 

[Quillion]

Discussion question day 3: If they made Dr. Mario an echo fighter of Mario, would you be okay with a similar moveset from Doc?

Dr. Mario was an echo back in Melee, though. I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Oh and sometime this afternoon I'll be making part 2 for DK, if you want me to tag you just let me know!

Tag me, please.

 

[FalconFire93]

It definitely needs more characters like Birdo, Toad, Toadette, and Kamek.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I've always seen the core Mario cast as:
and Toad with and as arguable Mario characters of high importance.

The Mario Kart 64 roster is all I personally would have added, but I feel has done enough to leak into the 'main' cast. With and to a lesser extent added I feel the cast isn't 'complete' without not only Toad/Captain Toad(who has somewhat replaced classic Toad in the 3D games) AND Waluigi since he and Daisy are roughly equals. Toadette as an alt for Toad/Captain Toad would be the cherry on top. Birdo, King Boo, Nabbit, Pauline etc can be added but aren't as vital IMO as a playable Toad and Waluigi.

was a full on mistake though. Should really have been Toad as a Mario/Peach semi clone if Sakurai really needed a popular Mario clone idea for Melee. Toad easily outranked Doc and he's even a puzzle rep if you care about that sort of thing.

 

[Diddy Kong]

In a way, they tried to respect Toad to give him more prominence in Peach's move set but that's more of a slap in the face. In that way, what Sakurai once established he wants it to remain the same. Not changing the Neutral B of Peach, and now also Daisy. Now he just dances along with the grab attacks of the princesses. Seems like he didn't enjoy much ballot support after all...

Paper Mario is still an addition I would enjoy if they implement him properly. I don't want much of the modern stuff, as his last appearance was Sticker Star, I rather want him play with the paper concept and regular attacks as hammers, and turning into paper objects. With the ammount of games he appeared in, it's about time he should be included. He could even work as a semi-clone of Mario, building up from Mr.Game & Watch's model and standard attacks and all. A bit of a mix between both.

After that, no other Mario characters interesst me. Except maybe Geno. Yet I don't even think he should be called Mario newcomer.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

The selection for Mario was really good.
It covers a good area of the important characters and manages to keep them interesting.

Also Dr. Mario was a great addition to the roster.
Fight me.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Alright everyone, day four! Today's topic is....

Choose a powerup from any Super Mario game that isn't currently an item and make it one. How would it work? What would it look like?

 

[FirestormNeos]

Choose a powerup from any Super Mario game that isn't currently an item and make it one. How would it work? What would it look like?

Super Crown. Your character puts it on and it changes their appearance, as well as adds an additional mid-air jump to the character it's equipped to and makes you fall to the ground slower. The power sticks with you until you are KO'd or until your shield pops.

*sips chocolate milk*

what? everyone's thinking it.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Alright everyone, day four! Today's topic is....

Choose a powerup from any Super Mario game that isn't currently an item and make it one. How would it work? What would it look like?

Mega Mushroom. Instantly grows your character to max size with all added benefits of course. I am kind of surprised that it isn't a item yet honestly.

 

[Aurane]

Alright everyone, day four! Today's topic is....

Choose a powerup from any Super Mario game that isn't currently an item and make it one. How would it work? What would it look like?

Double Cherry: Summons a weaker, COM controlled double of the one who picks it up.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I personally thought that the propeller mushroom could work fun as replacing someone's up + B, and the propeller was a multi-hitting hitbox. It could also act as Captain Toad's up B if he ever got in....

 

[thirsty-pocket]

Double Cherry: Summons a weaker, COM controlled double of the one who picks it up.

I like this idea but I don't think it should be com controlled, it should just have all the same inputs as the player like the real game.

 

[Deleted member]

Hey Mogisthelioma could you please tag me once the Legend of Zelda, Metroid, Pokemon, Fire Emblem, Xenoblade Chronicles, Metal Gear Solid, Mega Man, Bayonetta, and Castlevania discussions start?

 

[HypnoMaster372]

Would you be able to tag me when you make the other threads aswell, Mogisthelioma?

*Edit* Also, would anyone mind telling me how to tag people? It would be useful to know for the future!

 

[Mogisthelioma]

No problem!
To tag someone, type @ and then their name. To tag me, say "@Mogisthelioma."

10/4/18: Day 5! I decided to pick a stage based topic for today in both threads.

Since we currently have lots of overworld-themed stages from Super Mario, remove two of them and replace them with two new Super Mario stages of your designing.

 

[Heatswave]

In my opinion, there are enough Mario characters, especially as I also count Wario und Yoshi... Imo Daisy was a good addition as echo and the representation is fitting now, but I don't see any deserving new unique fighters...

 

[Manonymous]

Double Cherry: Summons a weaker, COM controlled double of the one who picks it up.

NO ! The clone will be a clone à la Ice Climbers. It's how it works in Super Mario 3D World.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Day 6!
Just a heads up, I'm planning on scheduling new threads every two days. I'll be able to upload thread 4 tomorrow, but Monday may be tricky. If I can't get to uploading on Monday, I'll move the date to Tuesday.
Today's topic is:
Imagine hat the Koopalings were seven fighters/echoes of their own. How would each one be different? Would they have different weight schematics, moves, or final smashes?

 

[Manonymous]

Each one will have a new Final Smash which consist of how you fight them in NSMBU. And they have different hitboxes, weight and damage output.

 

[thirsty-pocket]

Day 6!
Imagine hat the Koopalings were seven fighters/echoes of their own. How would each one be different? Would they have different weight schematics, moves, or final smashes?

I'm not sure I fully understand. Do they all get their own slots? Boy that would make some people mad. I do think they should have been separate from Bowser Junior at the very least. Junior tends to fight differently from the Koopalings, at least he does past the first NSMB game, he favors vehicular combat more, while the Koopalings favor hand to hand ( ...with Yoshi Safari being an exception )

So, in this theoretical world where the Koopalings all get their own slot, I think the best scenario is that they're all semi-clones of each other.

They all share two moves and a final Smash:
Neutral Special - They shoot a magical blast from a magic wand.
Recovery - Whirling Fortress - It's a lot like Bowser's recovery, but if it's done on the ground, they will slide quite a distance, and ricochet off of walls.
The Final Smash is just an airship fleet opening fire on them from up above.

Now let's get into how they're different.

Larry:
Very well balanced stats like Mario's.
Down special has him pop a ball out of his shell and roll it forward, like in Super Mario World.
I couldn't really think of anything for his side special.

Morton:
Weaker jumps, but much stronger.
Side special is a big steel hammer swing.
Down special is a power stomp like Bowser's but if even if you avoid it, you'll be stunned if you're on the ground and too close..

Wendy:
She has excellent jumps.
Her magic wand produces a ring that will bounce off of surfaces.
Her down special is a lot like Bowser's power stomp, but she twirls down when doing it, turning it into a multi hit attack.
Can't think of anything for her side special.

Lemmy:
He's small and lightweight, easy to knock away, but full of tricks.
His magic wand spits out circus balls, and touching them is similar to touching a bumper, but less potent.
His side special is similar to Wario's bike, but instead of a bike, it's a big circus ball, again, it will bounce you away like a bumper.
His down special is to shoot what looks like another circus ball, but it's actually explosive. It will blow up automatically after two seconds, or if it hits something.

Iggy:
He's faster but has a bit of end lag on his attacks.
Side special involves pulling out a chain chomp and being dragged along by it. Works a lot like Pac-Man's side special.
Couldn't think of a down special.

Roy:
Slower, stronger. Basically morton with better jumps and less speed.
He has a shoulder charge attack as his side B, instead of a hammer.
Instead of a magic wand, he just shoots a bill blaster.

Ludwig:
Has a flutter jump like Yoshi.
His wand attack shoots three blasts at once, but they move much slower.
His side B is a fireball from his mouth that flies straght, much quicker than his magic wand. He can only shoot out three at a time, and can't shoot another fireball until one of them disappears.
His down special is a very strange combo of Zero Suit Samus's and Bowser's, as a throwback to Super Mario World, he does a sideways flip over head that's kind of slow and floaty, and pressing B again causes him to drop down on his foe.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Day 7! It's been a week!

For a one-week celebration, I have a creative idea:

Design your own Bowser's Castle stage! What game(s) would it be from? Would it have stage hazards? What music tracks would be ideal for having in the background?
And if you feel like going the extra mile, do the same for a Bowser Jr's playhouse/airship!

 

[thirsty-pocket]

I feel like if you're going to do Bowser's Castle, you almost certainly have to do the collapsible bridge. Maybe it's a moving stage, where you work your way through the usual hazards, lava, fire bars, thwomps, podobos, and at the end of the stage, you approach the bridge where Mario and Bowser have fought countless times. Touching the axe would cause the bridge to collapse, and anyone not standing on the safe area is in danger of falling in. Keep in mind, you can turn off hazards now.

 

[Quillion]

One idea I've always had is to have a Bowser stage take place on a Spine Coaster from the NSMB games. It would follow an infinite track while the stage constantly waves and changes shape as you battle on it.

 

[Frizz]

For Bowser's Castle, I'd probably use the one from Paper Mario 64. You know, the one where Mario and co. fight a Star Rod wielding Bowser at the end of the game? Yeah, that part. If anything, it would be a Final Destination reskin. The music track would be the one that plays during the fight, obviously. The "King of the Koopas" track.

As for Bowser Jr, it'd be the one from Yoshi's Island. Not the final boss with the gigantic Bowser Jr. in the background, no, but the one before that. The building blocks in the background of that fight would be the platforms. The music track would be the typical Yoshi's Island boss theme, two others that could play would be the mini-boss theme and the ever-so dramatic final boss theme for Yoshi's Island.

 

[Arthur97]

For Bowser's Castle, I'd probably use the one from Paper Mario 64. You know, the one where Mario and co. fight a Star Rod wielding Bowser at the end of the game? Yeah, that part. If anything, it would be a Final Destination reskin. The music track would be the one that plays during the fight, obviously. The "King of the Koopas" track.

As for Bowser Jr, it'd be the one from Yoshi's Island. Not the final boss with the gigantic Bowser Jr. in the background, no, but the one before that. The building blocks in the background of that fight would be the platforms. The music track would be the typical Yoshi's Island boss theme, two others that could play would be the mini-boss theme and the ever-so dramatic final boss theme for Yoshi's Island.

That one's already in the Paper Mario stage though.

 

[Frizz]

That one's already in the Paper Mario stage though.

Is it really?
Huh.
I didn't know, I don't really keep track of Ultimate aside from directs.

In that case, I'm stumped for Bowser's Castle stages.

 

[Arthur97]

Is it really?
Huh.
I didn't know, I don't really keep track of Ultimate aside from directs.

In that case, I'm stumped for Bowser's Castle stages.

It's the third form. You fight on some flying platforms and the face.

 

[Frizz]

It's the third form. You fight on some flying platforms and the face.

I'm looking at the Paper Mario stage on the Smash Wiki. They seem to say it's from Paper Mario: Sticker Star, and not Paper Mario 64.

 

[Arthur97]

I'm looking at the Paper Mario stage on the Smash Wiki. They seem to say it's from Paper Mario: Sticker Star, and not Paper Mario 64.

It could be I guess, but they're still rather similar in design (it was likely a call back in Sticker Star).

 

[Frizz]

It could be I guess, but they're still rather similar in design (it was likely a call back in Sticker Star).

You're probably right. In that case, I'll have to go with the Treasure Chamber found under Bowser's Castle in Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story. There would be an occasional train that passes by, serving as a stage hazard.