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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Amazing Ampharos

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Uhm...where did you get that 3/4 sources said the SE rep is wrong?
Verge assured us his source on the SE rep "doesn't have a habit of being wrong" and the fact he even came out about it implies a great deal of trust.
I did some serious looking into this which is what took so long. Reading Vergeben's post history on gamefaqs carefully (I was told indirectly about these posts before, hadn't read them myself), it seems like he does make it clear only one source (albeit apparently a very reliable one) was suggesting the SE character and that he suspects personally it's DLC. I'm not sure where the 3/4 thing came from; I'll ask about it sometime later but probably won't get a chance tonight.
 

Nethermoosen

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I'm not saying don't have fun with it.

I'm just saying that people need to accept that things have endings.

People want to be in the magical land of "what if" scenarios. Those are really fun and I like to think about them all the time, but it bugs me that people complain they can't be in those kinds of mindsets when we have clear answers.
Fair enough, good sir/ma’am.
 

Luigi The President

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I did some serious looking into this which is what took so long. Reading Vergeben's post history on gamefaqs carefully (I was told indirectly about these posts before, hadn't read them myself), it seems like he does make it clear only one source (albeit apparently a very reliable one) was suggesting the SE character and that he suspects personally it's DLC. I'm not sure where the 3/4 thing came from; I'll ask about it sometime later but probably won't get a chance tonight.
See, I'm not saying I mistrust you, but the 3/4 thing makes a big difference.
He also doesn't imply he thinks it's DLC. He stated he's going to look into their status. That's really it. Nothing about his personal thoughts.
 

Zinith

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I also don't like people IMPOSING theories onto the rest...

"You MUST accept this theory, otherwise you're just an unreasonable fan expecting too much from Nintendo!!!"

I used to be active in politics and one of the reasons I stopped was because of that very mindset...
 

Luigi The President

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I also don't like people IMPOSING theories onto the rest...

"You MUST accept this theory, otherwise you're just an unreasonable fan expecting too much from Nintendo!!!"

I used to be active in politics and one of the reasons I stopped was because of that very mindset...
Damn, the Zin lore uncovered?

Real talk though yea.
I keep seeing these posts like "guys...the box theory is real. BUT IT'S OKAY REMEMBER HOW MUCH WE'RE GETTING?"
It gets a tiny bit grating.
 

Noipoi

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I also don't like people IMPOSING theories onto the rest...

"You MUST accept this theory, otherwise you're just an unreasonable fan expecting too much from Nintendo!!!"

I used to be active in politics and one of the reasons I stopped was because of that very mindset...
You used to be in Politics?

Was it as an ambassador for Yoshi's Island?
 

Paperchampion23

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Actually technically speaking, judging just by this graph you've posted, Smash 4 ended on about two characters, and the DLC period also ended on two characters.
I'm not talking about "secret characters" only. I'm talking about characters revealed officially as well, so count Shulk. Additionally, include veterans for Smash 4. As I recall, Ness, Falco, Wario, Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, Ganondorf, Rob and Jigglypuff were all "secret" until ESRB (and Nintendo) leaked them. Thats 11 characters. 11 were intentionally kept hidden before the game's release, and if it wasn't for a leak, they would have stayed hidden until people unlocked them on the 3ds version.
 
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CosmicQuark

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What do you guys think of this suppose leak?


Could be legit but I'm personally 50/50 keeping expectations low but at the same time seems like it might be true being Ultimate is meant to go all out in terms of fan service.

We'll see...
How is an anonymous Reddit leaker "credible"? Character wise, it's pretty much my predictions, so nothing crazy there.

Unlikely: I don't think we'll be seeing Pokefloats 2. Kinda makes sense, but also seems to feed into the fan zeitgeist. However, the mode is ALMOST CERTAINLY not called Spirits. Like the box, I'm 99% positive it's a placeholder to avoid leaks. And like the box, if in the unlikely scenario it's the actual name of the mode, it's a stupid name, and I would doubt Sakurai's judgement on that one. That's not the name of a mode, that's a name like "Project Spirits" to avoid spoilers.
 

Nethermoosen

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I also don't like people IMPOSING theories onto the rest...

"You MUST accept this theory, otherwise you're just an unreasonable fan expecting too much from Nintendo!!!"

I used to be active in politics and one of the reasons I stopped was because of that very mindset...
Agreed. No one should feel forced to talk about it. And no one should be pressing even the most valid of theories on anyone, because it is still a theory, regardless of evidence, because it doesn’t have a definite conclusion.

If anyone sees me talking about it, don’t take that as a signal I would ever shoot you down in favor of it.
And if anyone tells you to speculate less because of a theory, I will be there to back you up and we all know someone who can tame their spirits if it gets out of hand.

Personally? I still hope for Banjo. And I still think about that stupid book looking like it kinda sorta has Banjo-Kazooie on the cover behind Sakurai during the 8/8 Direct...
 

Shroob

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The thing is, is a final direct with Sakurai only going to reveal 2 characters? After revealing 5 previously? This isn't about hype reveals not being saved for the end (which is entirely subjective to the smash player, I know because I was super excited for Shulk), but rather the number of characters that have left to be revealed.


Think about it this way:


Yes, Melee, Brawl, and 4 all had secret characters. I won't count melee in this because it was before blogging was even a thing, but look at Brawl and 4, each had 3-6 characters (new characters mind you, these don't even include returning that were in fact secret) unknown to be in the game until at most a month before the game was released.

Fast forward to Ultimate. Secret characters seemingly won't exist anymore, but who's to say that Sakurai can't unload 6 more characters in the final direct in instead of keeping them secret? If he's already done this before, why reveal 5 characters at once in August?

That to me, regardless of how hype possible future characters might be, says there's definitely more than Ken and Incineroar. Every other smash game HAS revealed more in the end. And I'm talking about the last month or two, which we are nearing VERY soon. This is the most important thing we need to understand.
But at the same time, every other Smash game has gone out with a whimper in its final reveals.

The likes of Olimar/Lucario/Wolf from Brawl...


Or Duck Hunt/Bowser Jr?


None of those even come close to what we got within the first four months, I'm sorry, it's just true.



Sakurai has gone on record to say not to expect a lot, and a few are left. He's told us twice to temper our expectations.


And since he left us with "A few more", we've gotten K.Rool and Isabelle, two unique fighters.



If Ken, Incineroar, and a 2nd SE rep are left, I'm sorry but that's 12 characters, that just seems like a perfect number to end on.



We began with 12 characters, and ended on 12 characters.
 

perfectchaos83

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Actually technically speaking, judging just by this graph you've posted, Smash 4 ended on about two characters, and the DLC period also ended on two characters.
He's more pointing out the pacing. Once characters began getting revealed after the initial announcements for Brawl and Smash Wii U, things were steady. If two is it for Smash Ultimate, then there's a definite slow down.
 

Dukeofdeath5

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I'm not talking about "secret characters" only. I'm talking about characters revealed officially as well, so count Shulk. Additionally, include veterans for Smash 4. As I recall, Ness, Falco, Wario, Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, Ganondorf, Rob and Jigglypuff were all "secret" until ESRB leaked it. Thats 11 characters. 11 were intentionally kept hidden before the game's release, and if it wasn't for a leak, they would have stayed hidden until people unlocked them on the 3ds version.
Of those you've mentioned as hidden, 2 of them were new to Smash 4, and both were clone/echo characters. With Sakurai's philosophy on this game to literally unload all the veterans in the first go, I don't think looking at the hidden veterans as indication of how many we may get at the end of Ultimate reveals as accurate.
 
D

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So, hypothetical scenario. Let's say that Nintendo collaborated with Ark Systems to put a total of 7 Nintendo only (so no third party) Smash characters into Blazblue Cross Tag Battle as some sort of Switch exclusive deluxe edition. Who would you want those 7 characters to be?
For me:
:ultlink:
:ultsamus:
:ultlucario:
:ultpit:
:ultshulk:
:ultlucina:
:ultfalcon:
 

Luigi The President

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But at the same time, every other Smash game has gone out with a whimper in its final reveals.

The likes of Olimar/Lucario/Wolf from Brawl...


Or Duck Hunt/Bowser Jr?


None of those even come close to what we got within the first four months, I'm sorry, it's just true.



Sakurai has gone on record to say not to expect a lot, and a few are left. He's told us twice to temper our expectations.


And since he left us with "A few more", we've gotten K.Rool and Isabelle, two unique fighters.



If Ken, Incineroar, and a 2nd SE rep are left, I'm sorry but that's 12 characters, that just seems like a perfect number to end on.



We began with 12 characters, and ended on 12 characters.
Here's the thing.
I agree with you, but Smash Brawl had over 1 and a half years to reveal content. Same with 4.

Ultimate has a little less than 6 months. Realistically they have 5 months to market this game.

That's why I feel each bit of marketing needs to be so hard-hitting.
 

Heracr055

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I'm surprised at all this other discussion when we could be talkin' more about Isabelle and how she's going to be S++
Real talk: I'm glad she's in despite not really expecting her.
 
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Zinith

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So, hypothetical scenario. Let's say that Nintendo collaborated with Ark Systems to put a total of 7 Nintendo only (so no third party) Smash characters into Blazblue Cross Tag Battle as some sort of Switch exclusive deluxe edition. Who would you want those 7 characters to be?
For me:
:ultlink:
:ultsamus:
:ultlucario:
:ultpit:
:ultshulk:
:ultlucina:
:ultfalcon:
:ultyoshi: (of course of course)
:ultlink:
:ultmetaknight:
:ultmarth:
:ultdk:
:ultpit:
:ultrob:
 

Paperchampion23

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But at the same time, every other Smash game has gone out with a whimper in its final reveals.

The likes of Olimar/Lucario/Wolf from Brawl...


Or Duck Hunt/Bowser Jr?


None of those even come close to what we got within the first four months, I'm sorry, it's just true.



Sakurai has gone on record to say not to expect a lot, and a few are left. He's told us twice to temper our expectations.


And since he left us with "A few more", we've gotten K.Rool and Isabelle, two unique fighters.



If Ken, Incineroar, and a 2nd SE rep are left, I'm sorry but that's 12 characters, that just seems like a perfect number to end on.



We began with 12 characters, and ended on 12 characters.
I said to disregard "hype" reveals. They are 100% subjective to the person. My point is the number of characters. By actual numbers, every smash game reveals more newcomers towards the end than in the beginning. There is a higher rate. If you include veterans, it was even more (12 "final" characters for Brawl and 11 for Smash 4)
 

Will

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I'm surprised at all this other discussion when we could be talkin' more about Isabelle and how she's going to be S++
Real talk: I'm glad she's in despite not really expecting her.
Imma keep it real with you chief, she looks solid B-C Tier.
 

Luigi The President

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Imma keep it real with you chief, she looks solid B-C Tier.
I remember when so many expected Bowser to be A-S tier after that 3DS tournament that ended in a Bowser duo.

I am a Bowser main.

Ever since then, I've sworn off expecting tiers for characters.

(...but yea she looks pretty B-C you right lol)
 

Shroob

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Here's the thing.
I agree with you, but Smash Brawl had over 1 and a half years to reveal content. Same with 4.

Ultimate has a little less than 6 months. Realistically they have 5 months to market this game.

That's why I feel each bit of marketing needs to be so hard-hitting.
Incineroar will grab the Pokemon fans.

Ken Masters is arguably THE most iconic clone character of all time, maybe only second to Luigi.

Depending on WHO the 2nd SE rep is, it could be either HUGE, or a "Who the **** is this guy?" ordeal.


If we're only getting ONE more Direct, I think 3~ characters is actually a VERY generous number. We have 0 reason to believe yet that we're getting anything in October AT ALL when there's apparently enough junk info leftover from 8.8 for them to stretch it out until November.
 

Zinith

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I'm surprised at all this other discussion when we could be talkin' more about Isabelle and how she's going to be S++
Real talk: I'm glad she's in despite not really expecting her.
I can at least say she'll be better than Villager

But even then things can change. I'd like to say that my boi will be S++ tier but *shrugs* I just don't know...
 

Luigi The President

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Incineroar will grab the Pokemon fans.

Ken Masters is arguably THE most iconic clone character of all time, maybe only second to Luigi.

Depending on WHO the 2nd SE rep is, it could be either HUGE, or a "Who the **** is this guy?" ordeal.


If we're only getting ONE more Direct, I think 3~ characters is actually a VERY generous number. We have 0 reason to believe yet that we're getting anything in October AT ALL when there's apparently enough junk info leftover from 8.8 for them to stretch it out until November.
They really need to aim for more than a chunk of the Pokemon fanbase is the thing.
I'm not talking about the iconicness or hypeness of the characters. I'm more thinking in sheer numbers.
 

Potato_

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Incineroar will grab the Pokemon fans.

Ken Masters is arguably THE most iconic clone character of all time, maybe only second to Luigi.

Depending on WHO the 2nd SE rep is, it could be either HUGE, or a "Who the **** is this guy?" ordeal.


If we're only getting ONE more Direct, I think 3~ characters is actually a VERY generous number. We have 0 reason to believe yet that we're getting anything in October AT ALL when there's apparently enough junk info leftover from 8.8 for them to stretch it out until November.
If the SE rep is Sora... hooo boy. That would be huge.
 

Starbound

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There's more to the Smash hype than characters.

I feel like the "final" Smash direct has a layout like so:
- opening with the joint Ken/Incineroar trailer (roughly 2-3 minutes)
- Sakurai talks about the newcomers he hasn't talked about much yet, being K. Rool, Isabelle and now Incineroar. They each get a couple minutes of moveset overview.
- A few more veterans with moveset changes are brought up, as was the case with the E3 direct
- One more item, AT and PokeBall montage
- Spirits mode gets like 10-15 minutes of discussion because it has to be good if it's being held back from the first Smash direct so it'll be hype
- We get another 10 or so minutes of all the online features
- Sakurai then shows us the full opening to the game as a 'thank you for watching'
- and ends with a trailer for the direct DLC character that will probably not be Primrose from Octopath

That's roughly 45 minutes of Smash.

I know a lot of people are saying "how can there only be two characters left to show?" Yes, by this time in Brawl's cycle, we had 5 characters left and from Smash 4, we had 3 left. But there's one big thing I don't see many people connecting into this:

Ultimate has fewer newcomers.

Assuming we have 11 in the worst case scenario, that's, roughly, 2/3rds of the Brawl and Smash 4 newcomer lists, with approximately 1/5th of the newcomers left to how off. 1/5th of Brawl's newcomer amount is around 4. And for Smash 4, 1/5th is 3. Proportionally, assuming we make it decently into October without another direct, this is par for the course, and if I'm reading the chart P Paperchampion23 posted, we're roughly around the Robin/Lucina reveal time on the calendar (and by this time next month, we'll definitely be past it).

I know speculation is driven by 'more. More. MORE', and Ultimate seems to have that as a design philosophy. But we were told there were 'a few reveals left', and we're all aware that newcomers seem to be the exception to 'more. More. MORE'. We would need another 9 characters to rival Smash 4 and Brawl's newcomer amounts, which is honestly crazy considering that's double of what we already have, and would mean this game has 27 more characters than Smash 4. I just don't see that being realistic.
 

Shroob

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I said to disregard "hype" reveals. They are 100% subjective to the person. My point is the number of characters. By actual numbers, every smash game reveals more newcomers towards the end than in the beginning. There is a higher rate. If you include veterans, it was even more (12 "final" characters for Brawl and 11 for Smash 4)
And I disagree with the mindset of "Oh, we have one more Smash Direct?! Let's expect like, 5~6 characters!"


We got.....two(3) in the 50 Fact Extravaganza, that was it.
 

blackghost

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So one thing me and my sisters have always had fun doing is arguing over which Hogwarts houses characters fit into, so I figured I'd do it for Smash.

Gryffindor: :ultfalcon::ultdk::ultdiddy::ultike::ultlink::ultlittlemac::ultlucario::ultmario::ultluigi::ultmarth::ultlucina::ultmetaknight::ultpit::ultroy::ultchrom::ultsamus::ultsimon::ultrichter::ultsonic::ulttoonlink::ultyounglink::ultzss::ultfox::ultyoshi::ultkirby::ultmegaman::ultness::ultlucas::ultinkling::ultpikachu::ultpokemontrainer::ultshulk::ultfalco::ultcloud::squirtle::ivysaur::4charizard:

Slythern: :ultbowser::ultbowserjr::ultkingdedede::ultganondorf::ultgreninja::ultmewtwo::ultridley::ultdarksamus::ultwario::ultdarkpit::ultkrool::ultwolf::ultsnake::ultbayonetta:

Hufflepuff: :ultcorrin::ultjigglypuff::ultolimar::ultpeach::ultdaisy::ultpichu::ultpacman::ultrosalina::ultisabelle::ultwiifittrainer::ultvillager::ulticeclimbers::ultgnw::ultrob::ultduckhunt:


Ravenclaw: :ultdoc::ultpalutena::ultrobin:ultzelda::ultsheik:(Robin could also fit into Gryffindor).

Heroes tend to fit too snuggly into Gryffindor, which explains the extreme abundance of them.

I don't really know Snake, Bayo, Cloud or Mother characters, so I kind of assumed with them (besides, one of them is named Snake).

Hufflepuff will accept anyone, which explains the oddball characters.

Fun fact: I'm actually a Hufflepuff myself. Our defining traits are loyalty and compassion, and I'm a huge animal lover and Zard loyalist, so it checks out.
bayonetta is easily a Gryffindor
snake could also be ravenclaw
 

Michael the Spikester

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If said leak video I posted is true then.

Mario vs. Bowser
Donkey Kong vs. King K. Rool
Link vs. Ganondorf
Samus vs. Ridley
Yoshi vs. Bowser Jr. (Guess it'd be a nod or homage to Baby Bowser)
Kirby vs. King Dedede
Fox vs. Wolf
Pikachu vs. Mewtwo
 
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Chrono.

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I'm surprised at all this other discussion when we could be talkin' more about Isabelle and how she's going to be S++
Real talk: I'm glad she's in despite not really expecting her.
I wouldn't take that from trailers.

People thought Bowser would be S+ in 4 before it came out.
 

Honest Slug

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I think the difference is that there's no secret characters any more.

From a marketing perspective it makes since to reveal all the more exciting characters to generate excitement for the game. Hence why Brawl and Smash 4's secret characters were sorta underwhelming. Since Ultimate is revealing all its characters before release this will no longer be valid.
 

Luigi The President

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And I disagree with the mindset of "Oh, we have one more Smash Direct?! Let's expect like, 5~6 characters!"


We got.....two(3) in the 50 Fact Extravaganza, that was it.
I mean no offense but you keep bringing up the 50 Fact Extravaganza in this particular subject...
But it came out after Smash 3DS.

Why on Earth would you expect any newcomers when the game was already released, DLC or not?
I just feel there's many more points you can use then this one.
 

Murlough

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I'm surprised at all this other discussion when we could be talkin' more about Isabelle and how she's going to be S++
Real talk: I'm glad she's in despite not really expecting her.
Shes gonna have some cheese for sure. People think Banana is annoying? Isabelle can just plant a mine at ledge and cover the other two options.

I wonder how her Side special works, too. Can I grab someone whilst I’m airborne? How far does it go?

She has serious potential. Too bad Cloud will probably keep her from being solo main viable, assuming she is nearly as good as I think she is.
 

Shroob

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They really need to aim for more than a chunk of the Pokemon fanbase is the thing.
I'm not talking about the iconicness or hypeness of the characters. I'm more thinking in sheer numbers.
We have Ridley and K.Rool.


If you haven't pre-ordered by now, you probably weren't going to.


Isabelle grabbed the casuals.

Incineroar grabs the Pokemon fanbase.

Ken gets the FGC members.

And the 2nd SE rep grabs whoever they're targeted at.



Isabelle is a MUCH bigger character than people give her credit for, her reveal was HUGE for the casual market.
 

Paperchampion23

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Of those you've mentioned as hidden, 2 of them were new to Smash 4, and both were clone/echo characters. With Sakurai's philosophy on this game to literally unload all the veterans in the first go, I don't think looking at the hidden veterans as indication of how many we may get at the end of Ultimate reveals as accurate.
But thats my point. Brawl had 5 newcomers in its last month of reveal (as final reveals or secret characters), smash 4 had 3 newcomers in its last month. We aren't even in the last month of promotion and people are expecting only 2 characters left.

Yes that could happen, but in my opinion, with the way Sakurai likes to surprise people, I personally doubt it.

The man isn't leaving secret characters to find anymore. He's going to blow the load all in one place. Just think about it.
 

Michael the Spikester

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If also true about the Spirits in that leak video. I'd like King Dedede while part of the team of villains does his own thing unlike the others and really not no ones side similar to Augus in Asura's Wrath. It'd keep his character as it is.

Would be disappointed too Hades wouldn't be an recurring antagonist and among the masterminds behind everything (With the actual Big Bad being in the shadows) having hired said villains to get spirits for him. Especially being Sakurai was behind Uprising. It seems like something he'd definitely do and I'd be surprised he wouldn't had done that.
 
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