Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Nethermoosen]

You know, I've come to terms with the fact that Paper Mario likely won't make the base roster. DLC? Maybe.

But...it does feel like this is poor Geno's very last shot of making it into Smash. So I guess the concept of him falling from grace just breaks my heart a little. I won't lie, a big part of me countering the box theory is of course me just simply not wanting it to be true. Is that selfish? I'm sure it is, but I try to make it clear how grateful I am that this game even exists.

But, hey...Incineroar's been a pipe dream since Day 1. so when he's confirmed I think, Box or not, I'll be damn happy. So, thanks Jones!

Selfish? You’re buying the game for you. With your money. You have that opinion and you have it good.

 

[Jetsurge]

I'm also glad that we pretty much know now that our last two characters are Ken and Incineroar.

We don't. People have been way too accepting of the box theory

 

[AugustusB]

Sure, let's talk about something really controversial. Something SPICY.

Jack Frost as Atlus 3rd party newcomer.

The perfect Atlus rep! Give us more ice base users!

 

[Luigi The President]

No, this is the exact opposite of what I'm saying.

Dismissing the "box theory" requires believing that the entire design of this special edition box was not just a placeholder, but an elaborate ruse deliberately coordinated across multiple languages for an undiscernible objective.

Alright. Thanks for explaining. I am honestly so very tired of the box theory so I'm not gonna bother trying to counter because this is a good point and you clearly are more educated on it than myself. We'll just have to see I guess.

 

[DarkFalcon]

I mean Verg isnt Always True The Box doesnt mean anything Verg isnt a messiah or know everything

He's been 100% right with everything Smash related so far. I'm inclined to believe him since we're near the end game now.

 

[Luigi The President]

Selfish? You’re buying the game for you. With your money. You have that opinion and you have it good.

...huh, never thought of it that way. Makes me feel a bit better...thanks Nether bud.

 

[CosmicQuark]

Selfish? You’re buying the game for you. With your money. You have that opinion and you have it good.

Sakurai enables my selfish habits. He tells me to never ask him for anything ever again, and then he just keeps giving me more.

 

[ReeseBalaski]

I feel like every time I begin to forget about the box theory, it gets brought up again. It's not all that easy to not let it get to me when it gets brought up and argued every day.

 

[War Anvil]

I mean The Smash Fanbase thinks that Characthers like Shadow Ken Inceraroar are basically confromied i dont mind it but im kinda of tired of people saying that when we they talk about new chracthers

Well, duh. Sakurai was Sakurai is Sakurai will have to keep being Sakurai. This same man got the Wii Fit Trainers, after all, and turned them into one of the best newcomers Smash 4 had to offer.

 

[Potato_]

I feel like every time I begin to forget about the box theory, it gets brought up again. It's not all that easy to not let it get to me when it gets brought up and argued every day.

Not saying this to be rude, but you might want to take a break from the thread for a while, I was considering it too. Box Theory is basically all that's going to be discussed until we get new info, because everyone has an opinion on it.

 

[Zinith]

I asked this in regards to K. Rool before he was confirmed and now I'll do the same for Ken:

What will you do if he's NOT in the game?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

No, this is the exact opposite of what I'm saying.

Dismissing the "box theory" requires believing that the entire design of this special edition box was not just a placeholder, but an elaborate ruse deliberately coordinated across multiple languages for an undiscernible objective.

This.

If Box Theory is false, then you have to have the marketing team deliberately hinting at Ken just to mess with us.

 

[Jetsurge]

I asked this in regards to K. Rool before he was confirmed and now I'll do the same for Ken:

What will you do if he's NOT in the game?

I wouldn't even care

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

I asked this in regards to K. Rool before he was confirmed and now I'll do the same for Ken:

What will you do if he's NOT in the game?

well somebodies in so it depends who we get instead.

 

[Luigi The President]

I've said this before, but...it's just kinda damn saddening that speculation may really go out like this.

Due to a godforsaken box we saw for like 5 seconds.

The Ultimate of everything...except, well, speculation.

 

[AugustusB]

Not saying this to be rude, but you might want to take a break from the thread for a while, I was considering it too. Box Theory is basically all that's going to be discussed until we get new info, because everyone has an opinion on it.

I am there with you buddy. Feels like everyone who tries to say something new gets flooded by the box talk. It honestly gets old quick. We get it, it's here to stay until it is disproven! So all that we can do is wait.

 

[WertQuadNine]

Watch Shadow not be in the game playable after everyone hyped him up and said he was gonna be playable

I stand by the theory that the reason for his AT replacement was due to his abilities being too similar to the timer item

 

[Zinith]

I wouldn't even care

well somebodies in so it depends who we get instead.

Just making sure, cause it seems like everyone is being led to an expectation...

 

[Nethermoosen]

I wouldn’t even say they’re holes as much as they are educated inferences that aren’t technically proven. That’s the biggest point. It’s not that they’re flawed, it’s that we don’t have enough data to confirm it. Because of that, it gets criticized.

To me, a hole would be something that literally makes no sense and in itself would be straw grasping.

Like I keep saying, any actual flaws or proof will be shown with time. Unfortunately, that’s pretty much it.

Difference of terminology. Holes for me just means a gap in logic. We’re missing pieces of info here, such as actual reason for the pattern, whether or not there is just some kind of logo taking up space, maybe it was a mistake or ruse(likely or not) or whatever it is that we don’t know. I call those holes. If we have to assume something, that assumption is used to fill the gap(hole) to complete the theory. If it didn’t have those gaps in knowledge, or the lack of knowledge, it would be fact.

We seem to agree on the box situation, I just thought I would clarify my interpretation of “holes in theories.”

 

[Noipoi]

I asked this in regards to K. Rool before he was confirmed and now I'll do the same for Ken:

What will you do if he's NOT in the game?

Inhale. Exhale.
Blink.
Pump blood through my veins.
And continue to live my life because I do not care.

Spoiler

Then again, Verg has been championing Ken along with Incineroar and another square, so I might start to worry for Macho Man Randy Savage.

 

[AugustusB]

Just making sure, cause it seems like everyone is being led to an expectation...

That's exactly as it feels. Being led like sheep.

 

[Deleted member]

This whole box speculation in a nutshell:
https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/WaryFaintAngwantibo

 

[Luigi The President]

EDIT: My man saved himself

 

[Nethermoosen]

This.

If Box Theory is false, then you have to have the marketing team deliberately hinting at Ken just to mess with us.

This is why I mention symbols. Because even the echo spot is an assumption. It could just as easily be the Smash logo(or anything else)at the bottom left or right. Why? Well, why not? That isn’t at all out of the question.

Given, that would interrupt the flow of the characters, but it’s still technically an assumption.

 

[PSIGuy]

I'll be really disappointed if the one game that literally takes popularity into account is still unable to bring longtime fan favourites in. I don't care for Golden Sun or Skull Kid or Geno but I love seeing characters make the leap back into the mainstream thanks to long time fans. Honestly, Ridley and K. Rool were long overdue and if they were the only big characters that fan demand brought in, when they were always popular fixtures in huge franchises, I'll be very upset.

 

[Deleted member]

YOU FOOL DELETE THIS GIF OR YOU WILL BE WARNED FOR CENSOR DODGING

Okay, okay, okay! Hopefully it's gone now!

 

[Luigi The President]

Okay, okay, okay! Hopefully it's gone now!

Good work my friend. For the record it gave me a good chuckle

I'll be really disappointed if the one game that literally takes popularity into account is still unable to bring longtime fan favourites in. I don't care for Golden Sun or Skull Kid or Geno but I love seeing characters make the leap back into the mainstream thanks to long time fans. Honestly, Ridley and K. Rool were long overdue and if they were the only big characters that fan demand brought in, when they were always popular fixtures in huge franchises, I'll be very upset.

I mean...why do you think Dark Samus, Daisy, and Chrom made the cut, to be fair?

Granted I'll be shocked if the only unique newcomers bought in due to fan demand were K. Rool and Ridley.

 

[Chrono.]

I'll be really disappointed if the one game that literally takes popularity into account is still unable to bring longtime fan favourites in. I don't care for Golden Sun or Skull Kid or Geno but I love seeing characters make the leap back into the mainstream thanks to long time fans. Honestly, Ridley and K. Rool were long overdue and if they were the only big characters that fan demand brought in, when they were always popular fixtures in huge franchises, I'll be very upset.

I can you bet right now that they held those characters back for DLC precisely because they are highly demanded.

Ridley and K.Rool were a trojan horse.

 

[Deleted member]

Good work my friend. For the record it gave me a good chuckle


I mean...why do you think Dark Samus, Daisy, and Chrom made the cut, to be fair?

Granted I'll be shocked if the only unique newcomers bought in due to fan demand were K. Rool and Ridley.

Holy crap. I nearly had a heart attack. I didn't there was a rule against that. XD. I almost screwed myself over. I've should've just gone with a damn quote instead.

 

[Hydrualic Hydra]

This is why I'm out of speculation for now, it's both damn hilarious and damn sad that this silly little -BOX- has driven most speculation in a corner. It's practically inescapable until we definitively get more than 2 more characters.

On one hand, it's a shame you guys are inevitably stuck going back and forth debating whether Ken and Incineroar are the final characters for another few hundred pages (or whenever the next Direct drops). On the other, I gotta hand it to Nintendo if they threw us for this hard of a loop just by designing their product in such a way.

Either way, I must return to my prison on the dark side of -THE BOX-. Hopefully, I'm freed soon and can talk about characters without prefacing with 'man I hope for DLC we get-', I don't like doing that before release.

 

[CosmicQuark]

Wait, I just got around to reading the Blog Theory that people posted. This is literally the exact same thing me and others did previously, just overly-complicated. Back after the August Direct, I calculated at an average of 3 characters per week, 26 weeks in total before release, would make the total 78 characters. Subtract the revealed fighters (now Isabelle's included), you get 7-8 more characters including echoes. That's the gist of it, and it's the same exact thing I and a lot of other people did back in August.

I am my own worst enemy.

EDIT:

I think we'll be getting 8-9, including echoes. My reasoning, the same as others, is that on the blog they've been showcasing an average of 3 characters per week. The characters shown on the blog are at 69 characters right now (Mii Fighters and Pokemon trainer count as one each, echoes count), with 26 weeks from E3 to release. By week 23, roughly 69 characters characters would be shown off, leaving room for around 9 characters, including echoes, that have yet to be announced to be shown off. Of course, take this with a grain of salt as they could change their pattern by showing off 6 characters in the last week, or only 1 for all we know. But it is a pattern worth noting. My prediction is 4 more unique newcomers and 4 more echoes.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

"I'm also glad that we pretty much know now that our last two characters are Ken and Incineroar."
I know I say this often but...that is a big leap.

I don't know why we've swept the SE rep into the "oh they're DLC" pile, but...the SE rep is kinda crucial, guys.

I mean, Vergeben's sources, last I heard, 3/4 said it wasn't a thing and 1/4 said it was which kinda implies either the one source is wrong or it's DLC, and let's not kid ourselves DLC is definitely underway at Nintendo by this late stage of the dev game. The two things he's been adamant on are Ken and the 7th gen Pokemon who he's come around to be pretty sure is Incineroar. It all works, and honestly, Vergeben I think is one of the single strongest pieces of evidence making everything

But character speculation is the best part!
Unless you hate fun, of course.

Also, Corocoro says there are 108 stages. It could be a typo but I don't think it is.

It's obviously a typo. Before even going into all the details, ask yourself this. Why would the random staff writer at Corocoro even know about it if there were more stages? Do you really think whoever wrote that article has access to the full, complete game? It wasn't presented as a big reveal so it wasn't some deliberate give of information; it was either an accidental slip of the tongue by someone who knows everything in the game or a typo. Even if there are 108 stages, which would mean for the first time ever Sakurai directly lied to us in a direct, I'd still believe it was a typo that happened to be correct by coincidence since I assign approximately a 0% probability that whoever wrote that is privy to that kind of high level information.

And I love fun! My idea of fun is playing Super Smash Brothers. I'm super excited by taking a game with this huge number of characters and diving into the guts of breaking down every fine mechanic, discerning the balance highs and lows, figuring out how everything interacts, combing through settings to learn if Squad Strike and Stage Morph are the way to play, and generally crafting a strategy to win. The roster guess sweepstakes is a tedious exercise that is between me and that fine Super Smash Brothers gameplay and honestly a far more tedious exercise than character unlocking which depending on how difficult Nintendo makes the unlocks may or may not involve some strong representation of everyone's favorite game mode: 1 HP stamina flower. For me, Smash nirvana is sitting on a couch hanging out with the crew playing competitive Smash for seemingly endless hours, and when we reach the point where the roster is known, we're just one step closer to that.

We don't. People have been way too accepting of the box theory

I disagree. People have been far too unaccepting. It's a rock solid case, and it makes me sad because I firmly believe that if it instead suggested there were 5 more newcomers and 6 more echoes and they were (insert super dreamy wish list) that people would believe it more which is really frustrating because the probability something is true should not be connected in any way to how much you want it to be true.

 

[Luigi The President]

So am I the only one who's...

...kinda paranoid of Smash DLC for a really dumb reason?

What if in 15 years the Switch servers go offline...will the DLC go away?
And if that isn't the case, if I lost my Smash Bros and Switch and had to get new ones...how would I ever get that DLC again?
Super dumb and uninformed but that's just me.

I mean, Vergeben's sources, last I heard, 3/4 said it wasn't a thing and 1/4 said it was which kinda implies either the one source is wrong or it's DLC, and let's not kid ourselves DLC is definitely underway at Nintendo by this late stage of the dev game. The two things he's been adamant on are Ken and the 7th gen Pokemon who he's come around to be pretty sure is Incineroar. It all works, and honestly, Vergeben I think is one of the single strongest pieces of evidence making everything



It's obviously a typo. Before even going into all the details, ask yourself this. Why would the random staff writer at Corocoro even know about it if there were more stages? Do you really think whoever wrote that article has access to the full, complete game? It wasn't presented as a big reveal so it wasn't some deliberate give of information; it was either an accidental slip of the tongue by someone who knows everything in the game or a typo. Even if there are 108 stages, which would mean for the first time ever Sakurai directly lied to us in a direct, I'd still believe it was a typo that happened to be correct by coincidence since I assign approximately a 0% probability that whoever wrote that is privy to that kind of high level information.

And I love fun! My idea of fun is playing Super Smash Brothers. I'm super excited by taking a game with this huge number of characters and diving into the guts of breaking down every fine mechanic, discerning the balance highs and lows, figuring out how everything interacts, combing through settings to learn if Squad Strike and Stage Morph are the way to play, and generally crafting a strategy to win. The roster guess sweepstakes is a tedious exercise that is between me and that fine Super Smash Brothers gameplay and honestly a far more tedious exercise than character unlocking which depending on how difficult Nintendo makes the unlocks may or may not involve some strong representation of everyone's favorite game mode: 1 HP stamina flower. For me, Smash nirvana is sitting on a couch hanging out with the crew playing competitive Smash for seemingly endless hours, and when we reach the point where the roster is known, we're just one step closer to that.



I disagree. People have been far too unaccepting. It's a rock solid case, and it makes me sad because I firmly believe that if it instead suggested there were 5 more newcomers and 6 more echoes and they were (insert super dreamy wish list) that people would believe it more which is really frustrating because the probability something is true should not be connected in any way to how much you want it to be true.

Uhm...where did you get that 3/4 sources said the SE rep is wrong?
Verge assured us his source on the SE rep "doesn't have a habit of being wrong" and the fact he even came out about it implies a great deal of trust.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

I stand by the theory that the reason for his AT replacement was due to his abilities being too similar to the timer item

But they've coexisted this long? There's obviously a reason, but i'm not sure this is it.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

One thing I wanted to point out regarding the box theory.

People think Nintendo wouldn't let the number of characters slip like this, despite the fact that they already let the name of the new mode "Spirits" slip.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

I asked this in regards to K. Rool before he was confirmed and now I'll do the same for Ken:

What will you do if he's NOT in the game?

I wouldn’t be heartbroken, but I’d be a little confused and disappointed that Sakurai didn’t go for completing one of the greatest duos in gaming history that could be so easily implemented through an echo fighter.

 

[Luigi The President]

One thing I wanted to point out regarding the box theory.

People think Nintendo wouldn't let the number of characters slip like this, despite the fact that they already let the name of the new mode "Spirits" slip.

Can't help but feel there's a difference between a single mode and a roster.
I think Nintendo understands the roster is the actual selling point of this game.

Valid point but there's far more valider if that makes sense.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

One thing I wanted to point out regarding the box theory.

People think Nintendo wouldn't let the number of characters slip like this, despite the fact that they already let the name of the new mode "Spirits" slip.

They already let Simon slip on their own website, I'm not sure i'll entirely buy that.

I'm 50/50 on the box but that's part of why I can believe it.

 

[Zinith]

If the box ends up killing Smash speculation in its tracks, maybe it's a lesson to be learned by Nintendo to not do that again. I'll even write a letter...

"Dear Nintendo,

Your fans scrutinize EVERY WORD, MOVE AND THOUGHT YOU TAKE!!! Don't pull bull**** like that again!!!

Sincerely, the Yoshi nut"

 

[Union of Darkness]

The solution to speculation trouble is quite obvious. We simply need to destroy all boxes.