• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


Results are only viewable after voting.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Thirdkoopa

Administrator
Administrator
Writing Team
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
7,162
Location
Somewhere on Discord while working on something
Mallow heavy?

That would be really weird because heavy is the complete opposite of what I would expect from a cloud person.
Well, he'd move quickly, but he would be as easy to kill as most other characters. Probably.

The guy did a really good job, definitely. Also, really liked the art. Anyway, yeah, I can definitely see some changes. But I like the stuff s/he came up with!



I would love for Mallow to also become playable, but I guess I can't get past "Assist Trophy" in my head. Love your ideas, though.

I love how personal/intimate his storyline is in SMRPG. I think Geno does a great job of being the "overall plot" person. But we get to know Mallow really well. Goes from young kid who cries a lot to hero! Pretty good stuff.


Yoshi fans deserve some love. Right @Zinith?
I couldn't agree more with all of this! The Assist Trophy idea would at least be cool enough to see all five of them in a screenshot together. Yoshi really deserves some love - it's not an unloved franchise, either. I feel like Yoshi and Donkey Kong get the biggest shafts, out of Smash 64 franchises (F-Zero is competing for a pretty close third)

Also, I'll probably talk stages when I'm done replaying.

The only thing I'll address here is the notion that echoes are lesser characters and a disservice to the character that gets made into one.

I'm not even gonna debate about whether that's true or not, because that doesn't matter. What matters is if Sakurai sees it that way, and I don't really think he does. He was content making one of his own characters into an echo and not utilizing any of his unique potential, so I think Sakurai is much more open to the concept than a lot of the fans are. I just don't see him thinking that making a character playable is a disservice just because they're cloned off another one.
Amen. Yes, it takes less time to make them, but that doesn't mean less care.
 

Idon

Smash Legend
Joined
May 24, 2018
Messages
17,622
Location
Waxing Moon Ritual
NNID
Miyamoto Iori
Switch FC
SW-4826-9581-3305
Still, it makes a Big Boss Echo feel less special, imagine of Reyn from Xenoblade got in and he uses Shulk's Dsmash and goes "Now it's Reyn time!" Those were references to Reyn in Shulk's moveset so Rey having those makes perfect sense but feels rather redundant
Yeah, I get that.
In fact I'd prefer if Big Boss WAS completely hybridized into Solid with fultons, knives, tranqs, CQC, and the like.
It'd be a great love letter to the series and the alt costumes would be limitless.
 

SonicMario

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
4,063
Location
Mushroom Square
Sonic been in Smash 4, brawl, and now Ultimate...3 games

People want a new Sonic rep

Shadow is the 2nd most popular Sonic character

Sega wouldn't allow Shadow to be an echo

These are just some reasons Why i think Shadow is in the base game with his own moveset... That's why i made the bet
Sonic's longevity in the series isn't enough, otherwise F-Zero would have more then Captain Falcon at this point. Sonic's alot more popular then F-Zero for sure but you have to keep in mind that Sonic's still 3rd party also. I'm not saying to hold up some unwritten rule since that's kinda crazy after the bombshells of Ryu, Cloud, and Bayonetta. But there's nothing that's forcing Sakurai to say "Sonic has been in the franchise so long... he needs another character now!". They have Sonic, they can certainly choose to leave it as just that if they feel that's enough. As much as myself would like Tails for example, even I get that he's not exactly necessary to have. He'd only just be a bonus. And so would Shadow. A 2nd Sonic rep isn't exactly a necessity.

Correction: Mainly Sonic fans would like a 2nd Sonic rep. It's a mixed bag/depends who you ask situation outside of Sonic fans though. And there's no consensus pick amongst the Sonic fans too. Some want Eggman, Some want Tails, Some want Knuckles, Some want Shadow, etc.

Still think Tails might provide a challenge for Shadow in terms of who would get in first as a semi-clone/unique Sonic character just for seniority and the more neutrally acceptable amongst the general community (Meaning even non-Sonic fans could get behind it more. There would still be complaints regardless, but I think more people would shrug and be fine with Tails as a nod to Sonic 2 which was a pretty landmark game in the series. Arguably may have really started the big Sonic train more then the first game did) for characters that debuted in the Genesis classics. Also if there's a race for it in DLC in terms of relevancy, reception, and sales, Tails is playable in the most successful Sonic game in a long time in Sonic Mania. While Shadow just had a few bonus levels and the option to play as essentially a skin of Sonic in all the Modern Sonic levels in Forces which quite obviously didn't do as well.

(Quick Disclaimer though: I'm not one of those fans that vastly prefer the Classics. The Adventure games are my favorite Sonic games, SA2 alone which was even Shadow's debut is still my favorite game in the franchise. But he just doesn't outweigh any of the characters that debuted in the Genesis games in terms of recognizability and iconic status in the franchise. You could say "Sonic would represent Classic, while Shadow would represent Modern in Smash!" but that's not entirely true. Sonic has parts of both parts of the franchise. Though I guess to be fair most of his moveset harkens back to the classic era as they just gave him homing attack and his look since Adventure which by now has been Sonic's design longer then Classic Sonic was)

How do you know Sega wouldn't just shrug and be fine with echo status? He was essentially a Sonic echo already in Forces. And his debut game for that matter. Both his most recent appearence AND debut (Which also happens to be his most well received part of the franchise) were both where he plays just like Sonic. Nearly every case where he WASN'T a clone of Sonic came from some of the most despised games in the franchise (The Shadow video game and Sonic 06) for the exception of Sonic Battle. If Sega most recently was ok with Shadow having practically no difference from Sonic in their own series, why would Smash have to be any different?
 

Cutie Gwen

Lovely warrior
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
63,114
Location
Somewhere out there on this big blue marble
I don't think it is. The leopard print's an alt costume, the C4 is just another reference when Solid Snake also uses C4, the beard is asset reuse, and the bandana is just stretching the color palette.

By and large this is MGS2 Snake, even ignoring every reference there is to MGS1 and 2.
The palette swaps and such are used to reference Venom Snake now so I guess I'll give you that.
But the C4 occaisonally has a butterfly shape. Which was only a thing in Snake Eater.
What assets were used for Snake's beard?
You sure? His default costume is the MGS1 design, including his starting gun, but the bandana is wrong. It matches up with Naked Snake's bandana colour though. I just don't see any appeal in a character who looks like Snake, plays like Snake, sounds like Snake and is called Snake
 

7NATOR

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
4,085
Sonic's longevity in the series isn't enough, otherwise F-Zero would have more then Captain Falcon at this point. Sonic's alot more popular then F-Zero for sure but you have to keep in mind that Sonic's still 3rd party also. I'm not saying to hold up some unwritten rule since that's kinda crazy after the bombshells of Ryu, Cloud, and Bayonetta. But there's nothing that's forcing Sakurai to say "Sonic has been in the franchise so long... he needs another character now!". They have Sonic, they can certainly choose to leave it as just that if they feel that's enough. As much as myself would like Tails for example, even I get that he's not exactly necessary to have. He'd only just be a bonus. And so would Shadow. A 2nd Sonic rep isn't exactly a necessity.

Correction: Mainly Sonic fans would like a 2nd Sonic rep. It's a mixed bag/depends who you ask situation outside of Sonic fans though. And there's no consensus pick amongst the Sonic fans too. Some want Eggman, Some want Tails, Some want Knuckles, Some want Shadow, etc.

Still think Tails might provide a challenge for Shadow in terms of who would get in first as a semi-clone/unique Sonic character just for seniority and the more neutrally acceptable amongst the general community (Meaning even non-Sonic fans could get behind it more. There would still be complaints regardless, but I think more people would shrug and be fine with Tails as a nod to Sonic 2 which was a pretty landmark game in the series. Arguably may have really started the big Sonic train more then the first game did) for characters that debuted in the Genesis classics. Also if there's a race for it in DLC in terms of relevancy, reception, and sales, Tails is playable in the most successful Sonic game in a long time in Sonic Mania. While Shadow just had a few bonus levels and the option to play as essentially a skin of Sonic in all the Modern Sonic levels in Forces which quite obviously didn't do as well.

(Quick Disclaimer though: I'm not one of those fans that vastly prefer the Classics. The Adventure games are my favorite Sonic games, SA2 alone which was even Shadow's debut is still my favorite game in the franchise. But he just doesn't outweigh any of the characters that debuted in the Genesis games in terms of recognizability and iconic status in the franchise. You could say "Sonic would represent Classic, while Shadow would represent Modern in Smash!" but that's not entirely true. Sonic has parts of both parts of the franchise. Though I guess to be fair most of his moveset harkens back to the classic era as they just gave him homing attack and his look since Adventure which by now has been Sonic's design longer then Classic Sonic was)

How do you know Sega wouldn't just shrug and be fine with echo status? He was essentially a Sonic echo already in Forces. And his debut game for that matter. Both his most recent appearence AND debut (Which also happens to be his most well received part of the franchise) were both where he plays just like Sonic. Nearly every case where he WASN'T a clone of Sonic came from some of the most despised games in the franchise (The Shadow video game and Sonic 06) for the exception of Sonic Battle. If Sega most recently was ok with Shadow having practically no difference from Sonic in their own series, why would Smash have to be any different?
Well here is the thing,

yes Shadow did play like Sonic in Forces in tacked on free DLC, however...even if he couldn't use his Chaos abilities, it still was used in the cutscenes

you got to realize that with Sonic being a platformer, Shadow abilities are usually toned down or unusable due to balance reasons. the fact of the matter is that Sega will find a way to make Shadow use some type of chaos ability, almost, or even every game Shadow has used Chaos abilities in some capcity, whether it be in gameplay, cutscenes, or as a boss

this is a fighting game, so all the balancing issues that Shadow's abilities can pose in a platformer get thrown out the window.


Also, Tails over Shadow. not going to go into the DLc, as im betting on Shadow getting in base roster, but they about neck and neck, though with Shadow being 2nd most popular character, and ive seen more requests for Shadow than Tails (heck even more requests for Knuckles than Tails) and yeah. i don't know, im just going with my prediction, thats all
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Flap and Swish~
Premium
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
34,051
Location
Cull Hazard
NNID
Irene4
3DS FC
1203-9265-8784
Switch FC
SW-7567-8572-3791
Well here is the thing,

yes Shadow did play like Sonic in Forces in tacked on free DLC, however...even if he couldn't use his Chaos abilities, it still was used in the cutscenes

you got to realize that with Sonic being a platformer, Shadow abilities are usually toned down or unusable due to balance reasons. the fact of the matter is that Sega will find a way to make Shadow use some type of chaos ability, almost, or even every game Shadow has used Chaos abilities in some capcity, whether it be in gameplay, cutscenes, or as a boss

this is a fighting game, so all the balancing issues that Shadow's abilities can pose in a platformer get thrown out the window.


Also, Tails over Shadow. not going to go into the DLc, as im betting on Shadow getting in base roster, but they about neck and neck, though with Shadow being 2nd most popular character, and ive seen more requests for Shadow than Tails (heck even more requests for Knuckles than Tails) and yeah. i don't know, im just going with my prediction, thats all
Here's the thing also; Shadow can use those Chaos abilities without even changing the moveset. They can be aesthetic differences. They can be part of the taunts and even the Final Smash.

None of what you said could prevent him from being an Echo.

Nobody is saying he wouldn't be interesting as unique. That's not the argument. But he can work fine as an Echo and still overall have his notable points. Daisy's unique aesthetics, replacing the magical stuff from Peach with her more flower-like style already shows it's not impossible to make it work.

So yes, being an Echo is still very quite possible. It's fine you want him unique, as many do(can't blame ya), but he so far has nothing that makes it impossible for him to be an Echo, or even that unlikely at this point. He pretty much is an Echo in most Sonic games anyway, so it works fine. Also, cutscenes are equivalent to taunts and Final Smashes. Still works without him being unique.
 

7NATOR

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
4,085
Here's the thing also; Shadow can use those Chaos abilities without even changing the moveset. They can be aesthetic differences. They can be part of the taunts and even the Final Smash.

None of what you said could prevent him from being an Echo.

Nobody is saying he wouldn't be interesting as unique. That's not the argument. But he can work fine as an Echo and still overall have his notable points. Daisy's unique aesthetics, replacing the magical stuff from Peach with her more flower-like style already shows it's not impossible to make it work.

So yes, being an Echo is still very quite possible. It's fine you want him unique, as many do(can't blame ya), but he so far has nothing that makes it impossible for him to be an Echo, or even that unlikely at this point. He pretty much is an Echo in most Sonic games anyway, so it works fine. Also, cutscenes are equivalent to taunts and Final Smashes. Still works without him being unique.
Most, not really, more sonic games where he has his own abilities than where he just Sonic Skin
and yeah, fine, i can admit he could theoretically work as an echo despite the fact that it be dumb to have him have TWO Spindashes and a Spring when he has Chaos spear and Chaos Control.

but don't worry, Sega will not allow it
 

YoshiandToad

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 24, 2001
Messages
7,113
Location
Still up Peach's dress.
Mallow: ... I could see him being the first character to heal (HP Rain) without it needing to be a drain (Unless we've had someone else who can just heal on command?)
:ultwiifittrainer: is actually the first to be able to heal herself a bit on command. She doesn't seem too broken with it, but Mallow would need something similar to make it non abusable even if it's just a long set up.
 

NonSpecificGuy

The Extraordinary is in What We Do
Super Moderator
Premium
Writing Team
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Messages
14,003
Location
Mother Base
NNID
Goldeneye2674
3DS FC
0989-1770-6584
Here's the thing. I love Sonic. Sonic CD is one of my all time favorite games. Sonic as a character and as a franchise. I really couldn't care less about the extended cast though. Not Tails, nor Knuckles, nor Shadow. They're just not very good characters in my opinion. They're boring to me. You got the stereotypical genius friend, the stereotypical rival friend, and the stereotypical evil counterpart. Robotnik is the one character I would like to have from Sonic because of how unique he could be. More so than any of the others. However, I know that's never going to happen and so I prefer to have a different Sega rep to represent their library. Akira Yuki from Virtua Fighter, Beat from Jet Set Radio, Shinobi, or Ryo from Shenmue are all stellar choices for characters that I would prefer. All that into consideration I haven't even added in the Atlus characters that Sega owns now.

I'll let people support who they want to support and love who they want to love but for some reason people acts like it's blasphemy to prefer another Sega character besides Shadow, Tails, or Knuckles. It's pretty disheartening.
 
Last edited:

Hinata

Never forget, a believing heart is your magic.
Joined
Nov 10, 2013
Messages
7,621
Switch FC
SW-5535-3962-2797
But Dixie can’t use the infinite portion of Diddy’s Gentleman.
You mean the infinite part of his neutral attack where he attacks by rapidly flicking his tail?

The attack we haven't seen him use in any of the Smash Ultimate footage of him we have?

The attack that, as far as we know, has been replaced by just a single kick instead of an infinite with his tail?

That attack? :p
 

MBRedboy31

Smash Lord
Joined
May 5, 2018
Messages
1,437
But Dixie can’t use the infinite portion of Diddy’s Gentleman.
The thing about this whole discussion is, if they decide to do that, they could just change that one move if they need to, and then, if that fits or doesn’t fit our definition of an echo, it doesn’t matter, as the definition of an echo is completely arbitrary and they can call a character whatever they want depending on what they think would be better marketing.
 

Houndstooth

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Messages
808
Location
Alabama
I couldn't agree more with all of this! The Assist Trophy idea would at least be cool enough to see all five of them in a screenshot together. Yoshi really deserves some love - it's not an unloved franchise, either. I feel like Yoshi and Donkey Kong get the biggest shafts, out of Smash 64 franchises (F-Zero is competing for a pretty close third)

Also, I'll probably talk stages when I'm done replaying.
Can't wait to see what you come up with for stages.
 

L9999

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 15, 2014
Messages
2,632
Location
the attic I call Magicant
3DS FC
3780-9480-2428
Plot twist: Dixie is in the game and she is unique. The idea of her being an clone is because they have a cute name now and she is anatomically similar to Diddy. God forbid the devs use Diddy as a base to build Dixie, just like they used ZSS to make Bayo and Ike to make Cloud and Corn. Who would have thought reusing assets is effective?!

Edit: Ness and Lucas are not clones despite being similar, why can't Dixie be like that? To hell with "echo fighters."
 
Last edited:

MainJPW

M.T.A
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
7,834
Location
Angel Island Zone
You mean the infinite part of his neutral attack where he attacks by rapidly flicking his tail?

The attack we haven't seen him use in any of the Smash Ultimate footage of him we have?

The attack that, as far as we know, has been replaced by just a single kick instead of an infinite with his tail?

That attack? :p
Look down below.

Diddy no longer has his tail attacks in his jab combo.

He had a Gentleman in Smash 4.

 
Last edited:

Hinata

Never forget, a believing heart is your magic.
Joined
Nov 10, 2013
Messages
7,621
Switch FC
SW-5535-3962-2797
Look down below.


He had a Gentleman in Smash 4.

Huh. Well, would you look at that.

If he had that move in Smash 4, then why did the Smash Wiki make note of the fact that he had the move in Ultimate?

That's what made me assume the move was replaced entirely.
 

Jetsurge

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 2, 2018
Messages
1,791
Location
Sora Ltd.
Switch FC
SW-2536-8732-7990
He said infinite jab. That seems to be a 3 hit gentleman ala Cpt. Falcon.
The tail attack is probably still there in his long jab. The one in his trailer is his short jab. Every character has a long and short jab now. The long one is done by holding :GCA:.
 
Last edited:

Thirdkoopa

Administrator
Administrator
Writing Team
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
7,162
Location
Somewhere on Discord while working on something
:ultwiifittrainer: is actually the first to be able to heal herself a bit on command. She doesn't seem too broken with it, but Mallow would need something similar to make it non abusable even if it's just a long set up.
Hmm... so something beyond a long setup.

What if it took a VERY long time to reuse? Like, no 'oh if you get hit it takes less long'; just a very long time to restore.

Here's the thing. I love Sonic. Sonic CD is one of my all time favorite games. Sonic as a character and as a franchise. I really couldn't care less about the extended cast though. Not Tails, nor Knuckles, nor Shadow. They're just not very good characters in my opinion. They're boring to me. You got the stereotypical genius friend, the stereotypical rival friend, and the stereotypical evil counterpart. Robotnik is the one character I would like to have from Sonic because of how unique he could be. More so than any of the others. However, I know that's never going to happen and so I prefer to have a different Sega rep to represent their library. Akira Yuki from Virtua Fighter, Beat from Jet Set Radio, Shinobi, or Ryo from Shenmue are all stellar choices for characters that I would prefer. All that into consideration I haven't even added in the Atlus characters that Sega owns now.

I'll let people support who they want to support and love who they want to love but for some reason people acts like it's blasphemy to prefer another Sega character besides Shadow, Tails, or Knuckles. It's pretty disheartening.
crazy suggestion: how about shining force.

hear me out. like, camelot is the one nintendo company (that I can remember, even though they're the least nintendo of the bunch) that has absolutely no playable character in Smash. Let's just get a Shining Force 2 teamup character or Bowie along w/ Isaac.

Can't wait to see what you come up with for stages.
All I'll say right now is that I get very *very* bored by the typical 'travelling stage that scrolls through everything'. it's such an easy cop out and I think for most things it's not happening and most travelling stages are just a memorable location to show everything.

That and... I've had ideas for Smithy's Castle and the Weapon's Factory for a long time.
 

PlayerOneTyler

Sr. Community Manager, Smashboards Editor / Social
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
1,158
Location
Los Angeles, CA
I could see him being the first character to heal (HP Rain) without it needing to be a drain (Unless we've had someone else who can just heal on command?).
Wii Fit Trainer, if that counts.

EDIT: Someone beat me to it. That's what I get for just CTRL + F-ing "Wii Fit" and not thinking about the emojis. rip
 
Last edited:

Dragoncharystary

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 29, 2014
Messages
1,101
Location
Planet Ultimate
Alright, time for a rant on Echo fighters:

Ever since the term "Echo Fighters" was revealed, people have gone mad trying to come up with all these different ideas of who could work as an Echo fighter and it's just getting ridiculous. papagenos papagenos gave it the right term by calling it "Echo Fever" in one of his videos.

The reality is that the vast majority of these suggestions don't work and are just the result of Sakurai introducing this new term to us for something that was previously received with mixed emotions from the community. Echo fighters are practically glorified alts of the characters they're ripped from. They have the same weight, run speed, moveset, etc. Only differences are incredibly minor things such as Lucina's tipper and all of that. That's literally it when it comes to differences. That's why I believe characters like Dixie, Shadow, Dark Samus, and even Chrom just don't work.

The annoying thing is that since this new term was introduced people have completely forgotten that characters like :ultdoc:, :ultyounglink:, and :ultpichu: exist. We can still have clones who borrow HEAVILY from the character their based on and still require very little dev time compared to your average fighter. These aren't semi-clones nor are they Echo fighters, they're just clones. Unlike Echo fighters, they have different properties such as weight, run speed, and special moves being slightly adjusted to better fit the character they're being given to. I believe Shadow and Chrom at the very least have to be in this category because both would require differences in animation to work, they can't be glorified alts. Shadow needs a different running animation at the minimum which is more than your usual Echo fighter can have and I think Chrom can't be directly put onto Ike's model and would have to be made a little smaller and while they're at it they would probably change up his properties such as run speed and weight. Also they would likely have to add lightning effects to his attacks instead of fire effects which is again more than what is classified as an Echo fighter can afford.

Now does this mean that Shadow and Chrom can't be in the game? Of course not! They can easily be made into regular clones with very little effort. Same goes for Dixie and Dark Samus though I think those two are better off as semi-clones but the line between semi-clone and clone territory is where it starts to become more opinionated. In the last month in a half or so since E3, the only Echo fighter suggestions I have seen that I think could truly work as Echoes are Octolings, Impa, Ken, Ninten, Hilda, Ms. Pac-Man, and Jeanne. Personally, I don't think all of those SHOULD be Echo fighters and I don't even think some of them should be in the game because they're just there for the sake of people trying to fill a hole that doesn't need to be filled. But regardless, all of those ones I just listed could be thrown onto the model of whoever they're based off of and it would look fine. You could argue that with Dark Samus as well but Phazon effects combined with the fact that Dark Samus has a slightly different build would probably push Dark Samus to a Pichu type clone at the minimum. It's also worth noting that all of the above mentioned characters I believe COULD work as Echoes have displayed they have the same abilites as the character they could be based off of more or less while Dark Samus kind of falls flat in this category.

Anyway, I hope a lot of people read this and think more about what really should be a clone and what really should be an Echo. If you just finished reading it, thank you very much, I'm glad you took the time.
 
Last edited:

Thirdkoopa

Administrator
Administrator
Writing Team
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
7,162
Location
Somewhere on Discord while working on something
Dragoncharystary Dragoncharystary good post, and I agree; I was thinking about that as I made my Boshi post. On the opposition hand, just do the safe thing and assume that when people say "Echo" they mean "Character that's super easy to make, from a costume to a semi-clone at best". Like, I don't even think Dixie, Masked Man, or a few other popular suggestions would end up as Echo status, but at this point I'm on the pessimistic side.

One character that definitely would make sense on the Echo side is Louie: I think if you put him in, he'd have to have a different final smash, but that's it.
 

vaanrose

Let's Mosey
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
5,789
Location
Los Angeles
NNID
vaanrose
3DS FC
1762-2697-1591
Switch FC
SW-4679-3965-5961
Alright, time for a rant on Echo fighters:

Ever since the term "Echo Fighters" was revealed, people have gone mad trying to come up with all these different ideas of who could work as an Echo fighter and it's just getting ridiculous. papagenos papagenos gave it the right term by calling it "Echo Fever" in one of his videos.

The reality is that the vast majority of these suggestions don't work and are just the result of Sakurai introducing this new term to us for something that was previously received with mixed emotions from the community. Echo fighters are practically glorified alts of the characters they're ripped from. They have the same weight, run speed, moveset, etc. Only differences are incredibly minor things such as Lucina's tipper and all of that. That's literally it when it comes to differences. That's why I believe characters like Dixie, Shadow, Dark Samus, and even Chrom just don't work.

The annoying thing is that since this new term was introduced people have completely forgotten that characters like :ultdoc:, :ultyounglink:, and :ultpichu: exist. We can still have clones who borrow HEAVILY from the character their based on and still require very little dev time compared to your average fighter. These aren't semi-clones nor are they Echo fighters, they're just clones. Unlike Echo fighters, they have different properties such as weight, run speed, and special moves being slightly adjusted to better fit the character they're being given to. I believe Shadow and Chrom at the very least have to be in this category because both would require differences in animation to work, they can't be glorified alts. Shadow needs a different running animation at the minimum which is more than your usual Echo fighter can have and I think Chrom can't be directly put onto Ike's model and would have to be made a little smaller and while they're at it they would probably change up his properties such as run speed and weight. Also they would likely have to add lightning effects to his attacks instead of fire effects which is again more than what is classified as an Echo fighter can afford.

Now does this mean that Shadow and Chrom can't be in the game? Of course not! They can easily be made into regular clones with very little effort. Same goes for Dixie and Dark Samus though I think those two are better off as semi-clones but the line between semi-clone and clone territory is where it starts to become more opinionated. In the last month in a half or so since E3, the only Echo fighter suggestions I have seen that I think could truly work as Echoes are Octolings, Impa, Ken, Ninten, Hilda, Ms. Pac-Man, and Jeanne. Personally, I don't think all of those SHOULD be Echo fighters and I don't even think some of them should be in the game because they're just there for the sake of people trying to fill a hole that doesn't need to be filled. But regardless, all of those ones I just listed could be thrown onto the model of whoever they're based off of and it would look fine. You could argue that with Dark Samus as well but Phazon effects combined with the fact that Dark Samus has a slightly different build would probably push Dark Samus to a Pichu type clone at the minimum. It's also worth noting that all of the above mentioned characters I believe COULD work as Echoes have displayed they have the same abilites as the character they could be based off of more or less while Dark Samus kind of falls flat in this category.

Anyway, I hope a lot of people read this and think more about what really should be a clone and what really should be an Echo. If you just finished reading it, thank you very much, I'm glad you took the time.
The counterpoint to this is that we haven't had a new clone like that since Melee. At best you can say their decision to let Doc keep his old moveset in Smash 4 after upgrading him from alt costume is evidence they're still open to approaching clones this way. But the fact that Luci and Pit received no changes between games even when the melee clones have, and that Daisy is exactly Peach, shows that the current mindset is virtually identical clones, not derivative characters.
 
Last edited:

Dragoncharystary

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 29, 2014
Messages
1,101
Location
Planet Ultimate
vaanrose vaanrose That's a fair point but I don't think there's enough evidence one way or the other to say that we can't have another Melee type clone. Anyway the point of the post is more so about X character doesn't work as an Echo fighter then about X character should be a Melee type clone.
 
Last edited:

Thirdkoopa

Administrator
Administrator
Writing Team
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
7,162
Location
Somewhere on Discord while working on something
That's a fair point but I don't think there's enough evidence one or the other to say that we can't have another Melee type clone. Anyway the point of the post is more so about X character doesn't work as an Echo fighter more so then X character should be a Melee type clone.
Counterpoint: What proves what can and can't be defined as an echo? Last I've checked, we have no official definition, just a vague goalpost. It's a completely new term, so there's no differences if they, say, make some more adjustments than the typical echo and just brand it as another 'echo fighter'. What would it take for someone to be considered from an echo fighter to be changed out of the branding? We really don't know, and we'll have to wait and see.

I know there's the "but the melee clones weren't listed as echo's!" argument and really the only viable candidate from there is Pichu and we really haven't seen enough of him.

(Lucina's even taller than Marth by a bit)
 

Dragoncharystary

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 29, 2014
Messages
1,101
Location
Planet Ultimate
Princess Peach's Castle is the new update on the blog.
Counterpoint: What proves what can and can't be defined as an echo? Last I've checked, we have no official definition, just a vague goalpost. It's a completely new term, so there's no differences if they, say, make some more adjustments than the typical echo and just brand it as another 'echo fighter'. What would it take for someone to be considered from an echo fighter to be changed out of the branding? We really don't know, and we'll have to wait and see.

I know there's the "but the melee clones weren't listed as echo's!" argument and really the only viable candidate from there is Pichu and we really haven't seen enough of him.

(Lucina's even taller than Marth by a bit)
That's true. I'm comparing Sm4sh Lucina and Dark Pit to Melee Pichu more or less. Though the same logic could be used the other way, i.e. what proves what IS an echo.

Edit: Ignore that last sentence I read the original post wrong.
 
Last edited:

Cos.

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 2, 2001
Messages
302
Location
Switzerland
IMDB is a good source for good / fun rumors.
Smash Bros. Ulitmate Full Cast & Crew
Matt Bozon (creator of Shantae among others) is listed as an animator and Jake Kaufman is listed under music by. I liked Jake Kaufman's contributions to Shantae and Shovel Knight, and am curious what he'll contribute to Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night.
 

Thirdkoopa

Administrator
Administrator
Writing Team
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
7,162
Location
Somewhere on Discord while working on something
I thought it was the other way around.
from screenshots, it's looking to be that way, but I could be wrong.
Princess Peach's Castle is the new update on the blog.

That's true. I'm comparing Sm4sh Lucina and Dark Pit to Melee Pichu more or less. Though the same logic could be used the other way, i.e. what proves what IS an echo.

Edit: Ignore that last sentence I read the original post wrong.
The thing is, we don't know enough about Melee Pichu. Tbqh, one thing that really bothered me out of the reveal trailer is with all the returning vets that were cut on Smash 4, they sorta went "HEY GUYS REMEMBER THIS CHARACTER? WE DID LOL" and with characters like Ice Climbers and Snake, there's basically no changes, but Wolf is apparently getting an overhaul and Pokemon Trainer no longer has stamina (Among other things)

So... yeah. I get this feeling that Pichu had enough changes for them not to classify him as an Echo - I think seeing like, one or two properties isn't a dealbreaker (at least not yet) but if they end up having a ton of different properties like Pichu does (and that's discluding the possibility of some of his moves changed), well, it'll be interesting alright.
 

CrusherMania1592

Deaf Smasher
Premium
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Messages
6,270
3DS FC
5472-7454-3545
I think the possibility of a character getting revealed at EVO is very high, It's the biggest fighting game event in the world after all.
Idk about that though. If Wii U/3DS didn't do a reveal, then it's possible they could do the same with Ultimate


Unless they surprise us out of nowhere
 

DaybreakHorizon

The guy who predicted Sora as Fighter 11
Joined
Jul 28, 2013
Messages
9,604
Location
The Shadow World
NNID
tehponycorn
3DS FC
4253-3486-4603
IMDB is a good source for good / fun rumors.
Smash Bros. Ulitmate Full Cast & Crew
Matt Bozon (creator of Shantae among others) is listed as an animator and Jake Kaufman is listed under music by. I liked Jake Kaufman's contributions to Shantae and Shovel Knight, and am curious what he'll contribute to Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night.
IMDB isn't a source for anything since anyone can edit it.
 

Vintage Creep

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Messages
4,671
Location
Silent Hill
NNID
VintageCreep
Idk about that though. If Wii U/3DS didn't do a reveal, then it's possible they could do the same with Ultimate


Unless they surprise us out of nowhere
They're approaching a completely different type of marketing for this game, with reveals months apart and nothing in between. We're relatively close to release (4 months and change), and clearly still miss a few newcomers, so it's not impossible. They're also explicitly marketing this game towards esports players with all the gameplay changes, so that would make sense. The only thing against it is that Nintendo is extremely closed regarding leaks for Ultimate, they really don't want anything to slip out before the actual reveal, and EVO honestly is a dangerous place for that, but who knows.
 

CrusherMania1592

Deaf Smasher
Premium
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Messages
6,270
3DS FC
5472-7454-3545
IMDB is a good source for good / fun rumors.
Smash Bros. Ulitmate Full Cast & Crew
Matt Bozon (creator of Shantae among others) is listed as an animator and Jake Kaufman is listed under music by. I liked Jake Kaufman's contributions to Shantae and Shovel Knight, and am curious what he'll contribute to Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night.
IMDB is like Wikipedia: Anyone can edit it and make these crazy leaks

Hell, I can make a leak about Crash Bandicoot being in the game and make people go nuts, only to find out it's just someone doing the edits for ****s and giggles
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom